Talk:Battle of Praga

Title is POV

I think the title is POV. The google test ("massacre of Praga" 1794 -wikipedia) [1] gives only WP mirrors. OTOH (1794 "Battle of Warsaw " -wikipedia)[2] gives much more. Please do not take this as if I challange the massacre. I just think we need to use the most established term. Why wasn't the article called Battle of Warsaw (1794)? --Irpen 05:59, September 5, 2005 (UTC)

Good idea. The article should be moved to the Battle of Praga. --Ghirlandajo 07:20, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

I'd think the massacre of Praga was only a part of the main battle. Not sure if we need to move it - I'd say yes if sb would write an article about the rest of the battle, then this can became a section. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 13:07, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

I just judge from what I read in the article. Take another look. The massacre (and as of now I can neither argue against nor for the fact that the massacre did happen) is only a small part. The article is about a much broader battle. The topic about a massacre itself may deserve an article. But currently, the article about the battle (which simply redirects here) carries a POV title because it implies that the battle and the massacre is one an the same thing. --Irpen 04:20, September 7, 2005 (UTC)

I think I agree with you. But I'd like to point out that at least from the Polish POV, the massacre is much more important (and infamous) then the battle itself. Bottom line is, if sb wants to write the article on the battle, I'd strongly approve, and I don't see what else can we do? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 15:10, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

I think we already have an article about the battle. If somebody wants to write an article about a massacre or spin off the massacre info from here into a separate article and call it a "Massacre of Praga", it's fine with me. I also would not mind if a massacre, which may seem like a more significant event to editors, would become a larger and more detailed than a battle article, which might generate less interest from editors.

Perhaps this was intitially intended to be a massacre article. However, it was expanded and what we have now is an article about a battle which is called "a massacre", a POV title for the battle article. What worries me even more is the creation of the battle article as a redirect to massacre.

As I see it now, this battle article has to be moved to a neutral title or carry a Template:POV-title tag. There is a workaround too, if editors approve. The info from here can be pasted in place of the redirect and the massacre info can be left here with a prominent link from the battle. The move seems more correct from the formal point of view but is more cumbersome. I would like to hear others' opinions on these suggestions. --Irpen 04:21, September 8, 2005 (UTC)

It isn't called massacre in Poland

The correct name of the event is named rzeź Pragi not masakra Pragi. You can easly check it on google.Correctly translated it should be named Slaughter of Praga, or Carnage of Praga.Two paintings about it are also called Rzeź Praska not Masakra. --Molobo 23:09, 24 November 2005 (UTC) Here an example of naming it such way: http://jewish.sites.warszawa.um.gov.pl/jj.htm 'Prayers were recited in Praga synagogues on the anniversary of the Praga slaughter. The metal goods factory of Józef Rosenthal, built in 1904, and converted by the Lejzorowicz brothers in 1919 into a tannery, survives on this little street.' --Molobo 23:12, 24 November 2005 (UTC) Another example : http://www.acs.ucalgary.ca/~mstaum/hist329/intrel.html 1794-Kosciuszko revolt in Poland led to Russian and Prussian invasion-slaughter or civilians by Russians in Praga suburb of Warsaw-20,000 deaths in autumn --Molobo 23:14, 24 November 2005 (UTC) So if you want to give a name under which it is known in Poland it should be Slaughter of Praga. --Molobo 23:15, 24 November 2005 (UTC) Also here is decleration of officials from the district about this event : http://www.pragapld.waw.pl/news.php?id=130 --Molobo 23:15, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

It would be nice if those opposed to Molobo's edits would actually explain their views on talk.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 16:49, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I think this fragment is properly referenced and after some NPOVing it can be useful for the article. Comments about NPOVing it? PS. The source is discussed at Talk:Alexander_Suvorov#From_my_talk_page.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 17:28, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Russian historians and writers have tried to justify this massacre as an revenge for Polish conquest of Moscow in 1612.In 1831 when Russians once again crushed a Polish uprising against Russia's occupation of Poland Alexander Pushkin wrote "we smashed babies over the ruins of Praga" and declared that he is generous enough not to demand the destruction of whole Warsaw as the slaugher served its purpose[3].

anti-polonism

Putting this in the anti-polonism category is against the NPOV spirit. Pascal.Tesson 04:50, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

And how come murdering thousands of people just because they were Poles is not an effect of some anti-Polish sentiments? //Halibutt 07:44, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

To quote Russian soldiers from the massacre "We shall kill Poles like dogs for Poles have tried to defy our rule". --Molobo 08:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Source?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 15:28, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Source: Dzieje Insurekcji Kościuszkowskiej, Kazimierz Bartoszewicz.

--Molobo 15:48, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Do you have the page number? I am not sure if we can link directly to a page like with Google Print. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 18:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Molobo, Pushkin wrote about Massacre in his Poem quite the opposite to what you claim. I am sure you can find the translation of full version and post it here. The other part of your edit is just as worthy. Consider adding cat:anti-Semitism to the articles of a whole lot of military "heroes" who "fought" for Poland as well as Russophobia to, say, Sigismund. --Irpen 15:32, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Totallydisputed

To begin with:

1. cat:Anti-Polonism persisted with by certain users is highly questionable. It is no more applicable than cat:Anti-Semitism or cat:Russophobia with respect to certain Polish historic figures and events that involved Poland
2. In Russian historiography, if this is connected with anything at all, it is with the Massacre of the Russian garrison in Warsaw that preceeded this event, not to something centuries ago
3. Pushkin in his poem avalable here titled to Gustav Olizar, a friend of his and a red link for now, wrote quite the contrary of what the article tries to present and the quote is taken out of the context. It's not what I think on what he wrote. It's just the direct words. The poem starts with the introduction of where he recalls the past conflicst and ends with him speaking of the hope for peace that will bbe brought through the friendship of the arts people.

Russian original with the literal translation under lines

Template:MultiCol ГРАФУ ОЛИЗАРУ.
_{(To Count Olizar)}

Певец! издревле меж собою
_{(Bard! From ancient times)}
Враждуют наши племена:
_{(our peoples are feuding)}
То [наша] стонет сторона,
_{(Either our side is groaning)}
То гибнет ваша под грозою.
_{(or yours perishes in thunder)}

И вы, бывало, пировали
_{(You celebrated)}
Кремля [позор и] плен,
_{(the shame and capture of Kremlin)}
И мы о камни падших стен
_{(and we over the rocks of the fallen walls)}
Младенцев Праги избивали,
_{(crashed the heads of your babies)}
Когда в кровавый прах топтали
_{(when we were tramped into the bleeding ashes)}
Красу Костюшкиных знамен.
_{(the beautiful pride of Koscuszko's banners)}

| class="col-break " | И тот не наш, кто с девой вашей
_{(Isn't ours is the one who with your woman)}
Кольцом заветным сопряжен;
_{(is tied by the sacred ring)}
Не выпьем мы заветной чашей
_{(and we won't drink the cherished joram)}
Здоровье ваших красных жен;
_{(to the health of your beautiful women (wives))}
[И наша дева молодая,]
_{(and our young girl)}
Привлекши сердце поляка,
_{(who attracted the heart of the Pole)}
[Отвергнет,] [гордостью пылая,]
_{(will reject shining with the pride)}
Любовь народного врага.
_{(the love of the enemy of the people)}

Но глас поэзии чудесной
_{(But the voice of the wonderwul poetry)}
Сердца враждебные дружит —
_{(appeaces the hostility of hearts)}
Перед улыбкою небесной
_{(in front of the smile of the sky)}
Земная ненависть <?> молчит,
_{(the earthly hatred is silenced)}
При сладких <?> звуках вдохновенья,
_{(with the sweet sounds of inspiration)}
При песнях <лир>...
_{(with songs of lires)}
И восстают благословенья,
_{(the blessings resurrect)}
На племена <?> [ни] сходит мир....
_{(and the peace comes to people)} Template:EndMultiCol

Very inflammatory poetry and a good example of hatred towards Poles. Right Molobo? --Irpen 20:33, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

An English translation would be nice. And let me repeat that your, or mine, or Molobo's interpretation of the poem cannot overrule an academic reference like Janusz Tazbir's book.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 20:39, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

If only you read carefully, Piotrus, what others write at talk pages. English translation is right there, between lines, for which I spent quite some time to write. --Irpen 20:43, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I see, the layout was quite confusing, fixed now. I feel we are talking about a different poems (or parts of it).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 20:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

And, besides, now I got how the bizarre connection allegedly made by the Russian historiohraphy and how this poem popped up with this. Pushkin simply cites Praga and Kremlin in this very poem as examples of the wrongs the countries did to each other. Nowhere he writes that they are connected and that one justifies the other. We do have sources that connect Praga with Warsaw, OTOH, and Piotrus have seen them too. I will give a literal translation to the rest of the poem. And there isn't another one. --Irpen 20:50, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Pushkin simply cites Praga and Kremlin in this very poem as examples of the wrongs the countries did to each other. So he compares a massacre of innocent civilians of Poland to unfortunate involvment of Polis nobility on the side of one of factions that opposed the Muscovy ? Seems very POV. But I am not to judge this. Fortunetley Tazbir did it for us. Personally I believe that comparing the two is completely out of place and justification of Russian imperialism towards Poland, for which Puszkin became infamous in later days of his life. --Molobo 20:58, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Btw, we had a related discussion with Pushkin and Mickiewicz at Talk:Russophobia#Irpen.27s_comment. I think we need to address several issus here. I will translate the related para from Tazbir's article, it is quite short:

"Aleksander Puszkin w wierszu Oszczercom Rosji nazywa postępowanie Suworowa słusznym odwetem za spalenie Moskwy. Ponieważ poeta uznał dziejowy rachunek za wyrównany, przeto „wspaniałomyślnie” nie domagał się już zniszczenia Warszawy. Nieco wcześniej zaś pisał: „Bywało, żeście świętowali sromotę Kremla, carów pęta. I myśmy wszak niemowlęta o gruzy Pragi rozbijali”.

Alexander Pushkin in a poem "Defamers of Russia" (Piotrus note: quick and dirty translation) calls Suvorov's action a justified revenge for the burning of Moscow (Piotrus note: presumably during the Dymitriads). Since the poet saw the historical acounts balanced, he "mercifuly" did not demand the desctruction of Warsaw. And earlier he wrote: "It was, that you celebrated the shame of Kreml, tsar's enslavement. But so did we crushed infants on Praga's ruins."

All things considered, Tazbir gives more examples then just Puskhin's poem, and his main argument is that that Russian hisorians justified Praga mostly not because of the earlier uprising but because of the Dymitriads, and that such interpreations or ommissions of the information of the massacre can be found in modern Russian sources (he cites a 2000 textbook).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 21:05, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

OK, I translated the entire poem as close to the original as I could. If this is the "comparison" as Molobo or Tazbir see, I suggest Molobo takes a small break and comes back later. Or this is a "justification" according to Tazbir? --Irpen 21:14, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I just read the new variant of the article! Shame, guys! --Irpen 21:16, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

LOL :D Gentlemen, shame on you indeed. How come you did not learn Russian - and the works of Pushkin? And to our dear Irpen a little surprise:

Клеветникам России[4]
(this is the poem referred to by Tazbir as "Oszczercom Rosji")

О чем шумите вы, народные витии?	What are you bragging about oh people?
Зачем анафемой грозите вы России?	Why are you threatening Russia with anathema?
Что возмутило вас? волнения Литвы?	What is it that outraged you so much? Riots in Lithuania?
Оставьте: это спор славян между собою,	Leave it: it's a matter between the Slavs
Домашний, старый спор, уж взвешенный судьбою,	Internal, old disagreement, already settled by the fate,
Вопрос, которого не разрешите вы.	A question you won't settle
Уже давно между собою	These tribes have been
Враждуют эти племена;	fighting for long already
Не раз клонилась под грозою	Not once have they bend under storms
То их, то наша сторона.	It's their, it's our matter
Кто устоит в неравном споре:	Who will prevail in this uneven fight:
Кичливый лях, иль верный росс?	Haughty Polack or faithful Russian?
Славянские ль ручьи сольются в русском море?	Will Slavic streams melt into the Russian sea?
Оно ль иссякнет? вот вопрос.	Or will it dry off? That's the question.
Оставьте нас: вы не читали	Leave us alone, you have not read
Сии кровавые скрижали;	those bloody tablets
Вам непонятна, вам чужда	You won't understand, it's alien to you
Сия семейная вражда;	that civil war
Для вас безмолвны Кремль и Прага;	For you the Kremlin and Praga tell nothing
Бессмысленно прельщает вас	Mindlessly entice you
Борьбы отчаянной отвага —	the despaired courage -
И ненавидите вы нас...	and you hate us...
За что ж? ответствуйте: за то ли,	Why is it so? Say, is it
Что на развалинах пылающей Москвы	because on the ruins of blazing Moscow
Мы не признали наглой воли	we didn't follow the call of insolent will
Того, под кем дрожали вы?	Of the one, under whose power you trembled?
За то ль, что в бездну повалили	Or is it because we've overthrown into the abyss
Мы тяготеющий над царствами кумир	The idol reigning whole empires?
И нашей кровью искупили	And with our blood we bought
Европы вольность, честь и мир?..	Europe's freedom, honour and peace?..
Вы грозны на словах — попробуйте на деле!	You are strong in words - but try the deeds!
Иль старый богатырь, покойный на постеле,	Or is the old hero now silent on his bedding,
Не в силах завинтить свой измаильский штык?	Too weak to strike his Izmail push?
Иль русского царя уже бессильно слово?	Is the Russian Tsar's word too weak?
Иль нам с Европой спорить ново?	Or should we start to argue with Europe again?
Иль русский от побед отвык?	Or perhaps the Russian forgot how to win?
Иль мало нас? Или от Перми до Тавриды,	Are we too few? From Perm to Crimea
От финских хладных скал до пламенной Колхиды,	From the cold stones of Finland to flamy Colchis,
От потрясенного Кремля	From the shaken Kremlin
До стен недвижного Китая,	to still walls of China,
Стальной щетиною сверкая,	will not the steel
Не встанет русская земля?..	Russian land rise?
Так высылайте ж к нам, витии,	So go on, send us your news,
Своих озлобленных сынов:	Your weakened sons:
Есть место им в полях России,	There is still place for them in the fields of Russia
Среди нечуждых им гробов.	Among other graves, not uncommon to them

Here you have everything: syndrome of a besieged fortress, portrayal of a mass slaughter of civilians as a friendly disagreement between "haughty Polacks" and faithful Russians, threats to the entire continent, Russification of Poles as a raison d'etre, extreme nationalism... BTW, there's a lovely essay on the poem here. It's by Yuri Druzhnikov, so it can hardly be called a Polish POV...

Oh, and when it comes to our beloved Pushkin - this friendly remark is particularly funny. //Halibutt 22:39, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

his friendly remark] is particularly funny I putted it through Babelfish and it chilled my bones, It really makes you wonder how good we have today that we are free...--Molobo 22:53, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Could you post that translation?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 00:15, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

PS, I almost forgot: [5] and [6] :) //Halibutt 22:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

And what do we have here?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 00:15, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Halibutt, I didn't shame anyone for not knowing Pushkin. I thought that edits of an articles were shameful and called them for what I saw them.

Now, where in the poem "Defamers of Russia" as Piotrus suggests any calling "of Suvorov's action a justified revenge for the burning of Moscow" (Piotrus note: presumably during the Dymitriads). Also note, that Moscow burned During Napoleon, rather than Dymitriads. Where is "mersiful non-demandingof the desctruction of Warsaw".

As for what Piotrus wrote "It was, that you celebrated the shame of Kreml, tsar's enslavement. But so did we crushed infants on Praga's ruins." It is certainly referred to the "earlier" "To Olizar" poem. I don't see all the other stuff you wrote above in this poem either. Could you elaborate? --Irpen 22:59, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

To me it appears that Tazbir refers to both poems. First, to the 'crushing of infants' during Praga massacre in 'To Olizar', and then to comparison between Kremlin and Prage in the 'Oszczercom' poem ('For you the Kremlin and Praga tell nothing'). It does appear that the burning of Moscow seems to be more logically attributed to Napoleon then the Poles, though, and looking at the poems I see nothing about justifications. Anyway, interpreting poems is difficult, I will try to NPOV the current version.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 00:15, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Ismail

I heard that Suvorov engaged in atrocities similiar to the ones in Praga in Turkish city of Ismail. Can anybody confirm this ? --Molobo 22:56, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Check his bio, I believe it is mentioned there.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 23:48, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Strange spellings and strange text

I am not sure if all these Wasyl Zukowsklies and Czaadews are results of laziness or somehow intentional. Should we also change the spelling of Warsaw to Varshava etc.?

As a somehow eyewitness of the later Soviet propaganda I can confirm that during the Soviet time all the references to Suvorov's involvement in Praga massacre were taboo. The general attitude to the Poland Uprisings were in line with usual Leninist's "Russian Empire as a Prizon of Nations", "National-liberation and Peasant uprisings as a prelude to the Proletarian Revolution, etc". As such they were mostly considered as vaguely positive things (similar to say Bolotnikov Uprizing, but they preferred not to dwell on the details of the event. I strongly doubt that there exist any reference e.g. in any official Soviet publications (including the Large Soviet Encyclopedia that vindicates Praga massacre.

The same goes to the crazy Westernizer Pyotr Chaadaev (if this Piotr Czaadajew is indeed him). The officially-recognized authors of the time like Gavrila Romanovich Derzhavin or Vasily Zhukovsky (I guess the article refer to them) might say something supportive to the events, I would still like to see the references. As was shown by Irpen the alleged Pushikin references connecting Dimitriades and Praga were pure speculations.

BTW Pushkin and Adam Mickiewicz have quite a strong personal connections. Originally they were friendly, later, after the Slavophile verses of Pushkin Mickiewicz broke all the relations. Despite this Mickiewicz was shaken by the death of Pushkin and even sent the Pushkin's killer Georges d'Anthès a challenge for duel. I doubt he would do it if Pushkin would ever praise murdering of Polish babies.

If this Michail Glinka is Mikhail Glinka and the theatrical work is his opera A Life for the Tsar, then it has nothing to do with the Praga massacre.

In short this new section #National historiographies is a complete nonsense irrelevant to the Battle of Praga. abakharev 00:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Its based on direct historical research by respected scholar. Neither mine or your personal views are important here. --Molobo 01:03, 14 June 2006 (UTC)