Talk:Vladimir Zhirinovsky's donkey video

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page has been moved to Vladimir Zhirinovsky's donkey video without closing the open discussions. Closing the discussions. -- JHunterJ (talk) 17:22, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

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Zhirinovsky's ass → Zhirinovsky's donkey – I moved the article to "Zhirinovsky's donkey" for multiple reasons:

• the title "Zhirinovsky's ass" is a childish play on words which is being used to malign a living person, and
• Ass, while in common usage in some parts of the world, is a disambiguation page. The more common Donkey avoids the redirects which littered this article.

My move and fixing of the redirects were reverted my User:Russavia. I have no desire to engage this user, so I am requesting that the redirect be discussed as controversial. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 20:15, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

• No-brainer. Silliness. Disruption. Etc. Have restored move. --JN466 20:35, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
  • The move is clearly controversial. Please abide by WP:BRD. List this at WP:RM if you feel it should be moved, and you can discuss it here, rather than deciding off-site where it should be. Thank you for your attention. Russavia ^{ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)} 21:47, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
    • It is listed at WP:RM. See template above. Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 21:50, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
      • I know, so discuss it, rather than listing it, and then unilaterally moving it without discussion. This is directed to User:Jayen466. Russavia ^{ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)} 21:58, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
        • Well, as it stands, I consider this article title a BLP violation. BLP violations are removed until there is a consensus to have them in the article. --JN466 00:06, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
• Support: Actually, I just wanted to propose the same move. "Ass" is highly ambiguous, "donkey" isn't.
• Support: The wikipedia article for donkey is at Donkey and interwikis to Russian осёл. However since does appear to be a BLP violation, I would further suggest a note on BLP noticeboard so that an admin can see this. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:14, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
• Support. Greatly reduces ambiguity. Jenks24 (talk) 07:06, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
• Support. So we can move on and ask why it should not be merged with Vladimir Zhirinovsky. Mootros (talk) 08:08, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
• Comment. Oh please stop talking about BLP violations. This article is about yet another brilliant performance by a political clown, which Zhirinovsky is (everyone in Russia knows that, including Zhirinovsky himself). With this ass add and its subsequent discussion he tried to produce as much controversy and fun as possible, and there is no point in reducing it. GreyHood ^Talk 09:25, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
  • He has his standards, we have ours. We don't follow any political agenda, including one of buffoonery and populist merrymaking. --JN466 12:32, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
    • I always find it funny when people from WR and WF come onto these projects talking about buffoonery. :) Russavia ^{ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)} 12:37, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose. A connotation does not undermine legitimacy of a title - see African wild ass, Mongolian wild ass. 216.16.232.250 (talk) 17:43, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
• Support. Unless the double entendre works in Russian and is the most commonly used name, it should be "donkey". InverseHypercube (talk) 22:50, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
• Support per unsigned. Donkey is unambiguous, ass isn't. AIRcorn (talk) 07:30, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
• Support - the most common word for donkey in English speaking countries seems to be 'donkey', not ass. Also, the main page on the animal is Donkey. One thought: Zhirinovskij doesn't own the animal, so it's not really his. The correctness of both titles is therefore in doubt.Malick78 (talk) 14:28, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
• Weak Support as preferable to the borderline BLP violation that is the current title, but prefer an option that has the word 'video' in the title, since this article is about a video, not an animal. Robofish (talk) 16:44, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
• Comment. To make my position clear on this - I do not see particular need to move from "ass" to "donkey", given that the terms are generally interchangeable, and the other articles about "X ass"es exist on Wikipedia. BLP application here is dubious since the media used the term ass as well as donkey, but I cannot make a final judge here as non-native speaker, and for me the difference between "Zhirinovsky's ass" or "Zhirinovsky's donkey" is not really important afterall. But I most certainly prefer "Zhirinovsky's donkey" over "Vladimir Zhirinovsky's donkey video" which is rather excessive title. GreyHood ^Talk 21:55, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 2

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page has been moved to Vladimir Zhirinovsky's donkey video without closing the open discussions. Closing the discussions. -- JHunterJ (talk) 17:22, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

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Zhirinovsky's ass → Zhirinovsky's election campaign 2012 –

The main content of this article is about Zhirinovsky's election campaign. Mootros (talk) 08:45, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

• The idea has meridt - but I wouldn't support a direct move of this content, unless a lot more content can be brought in to complete the subject. Otherwise it would definitely be an "undue" issue. Also might need the year; he is a long term political candidate. But other than that, this idea is the best so far. --Errant ^(chat!) 09:15, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 3

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page has been moved to Vladimir Zhirinovsky's donkey video without closing the open discussions. Closing the discussions. -- JHunterJ (talk) 17:22, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

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Zhirinovsky's ass → Zhirinovsky's donkey video –} In line with the above suggestion and current discussions that the campaign was more than the video, this title is proposed. Mootros (talk) 12:32, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

• Support. This article is about a video, not an animal. Possibly Vladimir Zhirinovsky's donkey video would be even better for precision. Robofish (talk) 16:41, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
• Support - about a video, not an animal.Malick78 (talk) 19:12, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Tweak: the current title - Vladimir Zhirinovsky's donkey video - is the best of all in my view.Malick78 (talk) 22:24, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose, though it is better than the current title. Nevertheless, the name of the video is little known, so the title is very artificial. And the Zhirinovsky's donkey is shorter and allows better to categorise the article and to format the intro etc. GreyHood ^Talk 20:56, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Comment: it's an encyclopaedic, descriptive title. These are certainly allowed.Malick78 (talk) 22:24, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Comment:Yes, "allows better to categorise the article and to format the intro etc" if you want to write article about someone's donkey. This article is about a video. Mootros (talk) 07:32, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Discussion

Inline with the requested move, it really does not matter which title the article is at, because media use both "ass" and "donkey". However, the "ass" is what the media picked up on after the advert was released, so it clearly needs to be mentioned prominently in the article. As to the actual name, I propose we move it to Proshka, which is the name of the donkey. Russavia ^{ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)} 21:58, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, by more strict logic the article should be named Proshka, yes. But the term "Zhirinovsky's ass" is much more recognizable, since the name of the poor donkey is little known. "Zhirinovsky's donkey" is also a variant, but currently it gets much less hits than "Zhirinovsky's ass" (the same goes for "Zhirinovsky ass" and "Zhirinovsky donkey"). Anyway, why not rename the article after the 1 April, not now? As for which term to use throughout the text, clearly it should be both "ass" and "donkey", interchanging, since the media have used both terms. GreyHood ^Talk 22:14, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Google News has zero hits for ass [1], and three for donkey, including the New York Times [2]. --JN466 23:05, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Here is an example of the "ass" usage. [3] Strange that Google News doesn't make search over the primary Russian news sources, such as RIAN. GreyHood ^Talk 23:28, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

That's written by a native Russian whose command of English is, shall we say, limited. I'd rather go with the New York Times. JN466 00:05, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

LOLWUT. Greyhood's command of the English language is almost at a native level; there may be instance of Russglish, but this is standard for most native Russian speakers when writing/talking in English. Stop denegrating other editors here Jayen466. Russavia ^{ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)} 12:46, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Er, Russavia, I'm fairly sure JN466 was referring to the author of the RIAN article, not Greyhood. Jenks24 (talk) 03:19, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

The main content of this article is about Zhirinovsky's election campaign. Mootros (talk) 08:45, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Not exactly. Much of the article tells about the ass and about troika. GreyHood ^Talk 09:19, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

You may find that if you pursue this direction (rather than focusing on the election campaign) that notability is not met. Mootros (talk) 10:40, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

By the way you have removed some stuff relevant to Zhirinovsky's election. And the video was a subject of special commentary by many Russian media sources, devoting whole articles to it. It was not mentioned just in passing. Notability is well-established. GreyHood ^Talk 11:25, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Well that's what we are trying to establish here, whether notability is the case or not. The article did not have the best start because of the naming issues and the extremely weak source like youtube, but I'm sure we can get it into shape in some form or another. Mootros (talk) 11:57, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Please do not mix different issues: one thing is the article's title, second thing is which terms are used in the text, third thing is notability of the subject (which is well-established), fourth thing is referencing (which is mostly good, and few Youtube videos could be replaced with better sources), and fifth thing is your attempts to remove relevant well-sourced stuff from the article (as well as attempts to remove relevant images or make summaries in a way that relevant information is lost). GreyHood ^Talk 12:43, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Tip no. 2: How not to be wordy

Compare and contrast the following two versions of the paragraph:

“ It also featured on Channel One's comedy show Yesterday Live in March 2012, as part of a spoof news clip from a fictitious US-based TV channel, reporting that in Russia was a shortages of gasoline with people abandoning cars and resorting to other modes of transportation. ”

“ The video also has been featured on the 17 March in the comedy show "Yesterday Live" on Channel One, where it was used in a parody of American TV news: the fictional BBN News reported the situation in Russia in a satirically biased way, including making a claim that Russians had problems with shortages of gasoline and that's why some people had to abandon cars and to resort to other ways of transportation - in which moment Zhirinovsky is shown beating his donkey. ”

This is useful, because by seeing the two side by side, I could see that the one important fact missing from the shorter version was the exact date. In all other respects the first one is better. I have amended the article to put the date back in.--Toddy1 (talk) 07:38, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Being less wordy is obviously better, if no important parts of the information are lost. In this case, seems you've indeed made a good shorter variant which conveys the same facts. GreyHood ^Talk 16:24, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Would you try to summarise this paragraph - it's very wordy. Thanks. Mootros (talk) 04:09, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

“ Zhirinovsky confronted with a rival presidential candidate oligarch Mikhail Prokhorov on several Russian TV talk shows and presidential debates in 2012; he also criticized Prokhorov on debates with other candidates and in various interviews. On the last episode of debates with Prokhorov, just before the elections, Zhirinovsky produced a scandal, calling those Russian celebrities which supported Prokhorov, including a pop-diva Alla Pugacheva, "prostitutes" ("I thought you are an artful person, politician, cunning man, but you are just a clown and a psycho" replied Pugacheva. "I am what I am. And such is my charm" replied Zhirinovsky). ”

Made it shorter. Do not think it is possible or desirable making even more short. Here we have a general description of rivalry plus a description of its most notable episode widely discussed in the media. GreyHood ^Talk 23:53, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

“ Zhirinovsky confronted with a rival candidate Mikhail Prokhorov on several presidential debates on TV; he also criticized Prokhorov in interviews and on debates with other candidates. On the last debates, just before the election, Zhirinovsky produced a scandal, calling those Russian celebrities which supported Prokhorov, including a pop-diva Alla Pugacheva, "prostitutes". ”

That's a good start. Not bad, but there are a few grammar problem in the sentence construction. Also, it is normal that during a debate people criticise each other. We need to know what the criticism of Prokhorov refers to. Other politician are not relevant here, because there is no animal named after.

“ Confronted with the rival presidential candidate Mikhail Prokhorov during several televised election debates in 2012, Zhirinovsky criticized Prokhorov for [cause/reason]. During the last debates with Prokhorov, before the election, Zhirinovsky stated that Russian celebrities, including Alla Pugacheva, who supported Prokhorov, are "prostitutes". ”

("I thought you are an artful person, politician, cunning man, but you are just a clown and a psycho" replied Pugacheva. "I am what I am. And such is my charm" replied Zhirinovsky.) What is the relation to video here? Is this Pugacheva's comment about the video? Where does the source say this? Also, which paragraph should this go in? It's NOT background, the debate with the celebrity was 7 April [28 February], month [three weeks] after the video was release. Mootros (talk) 04:49, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Check your facts, the debate was on 28 February. The entire episode is a good illustration of rivalry between Prokhorov and Zhirinovsky - without such illustrations the article gets boring and hollow - we cannot just make general statements without any examples. Pugacheva's reply and Zhirinovsky's re-reply are relevant because to uphold some neutrality we should give a voice to every side of conflict. GreyHood ^Talk 14:55, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

The subject: the video. The donkey being named after Prokhorov: incidental, but worth mentioning (the donkey symbolises Russia, that's the important bit). What Zhiri calls people who like Prokhorov: irrelevant. Too far from video to be important. Let's delete the Pugachova stuff.Malick78 (talk) 16:15, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

This deletionist approach to the material in the article is neither constructive, nor justified by a small size of the article. The rivalry with Prokhorov, as manifested in the naming of the donkey, is relevant to the video. This rivalry should be explained - otherwise it is not clear at all why this rivalry emerged and what it was. Episode with Pugachyova on Zhirinovsky-Prokhorov debates was the most widely publicized and dramatic point of Zhirinovsky's conflict with Prokhorov. GreyHood ^Talk 16:55, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Regardless, whether boring or not,regardless three weeks or several month after the release of the video, an event that occurred after the event the article tries to describe cannot serve as a background story. Background in English usually means something that happened before and helps us to understand why and how something has happen as it did. You are might confuse a subsequent reaction with background 06:39, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

And overall, aren't you all tired of this nit-picking of stuff to get deleted because of your strange view that if "X (the donkey) is strongly relevant to Y (the donkey video), and Z (the donkey naming and its explanation) is strongly relevant to X, that does not mean that Z is relevant to Y"? Such view might have been constructive if this article was sufficiently large to justify the move of less important stuff to subarticles or to related articles, but this is not the case - the article is small to medium size, attempted derivative articles would likely get deleted or merged with this article, and Zhirinovsky's article, if properly expanded, would eventually become of inappropriate scope to discuss the naming of his donkey in detail.

So what we have - the information about the donkey naming is supported by reliable sources and no point to censor it - it is unconstructive and fails informational purpose of the encyclopedia. The information could be included into some article - though not to every related article. But obviously, it is this article that is the best place to include this information, as explained above. That's it. GreyHood ^Talk 16:55, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, "small article = we can add rubbish content" is not a valid argument. The Pugachova bit will always be irrelevant. No one is trying to 'censor' anything. You, however, are trying to blacken Zhiri's name... Malick78 (talk) 18:58, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Greyhood - please do us a table comparing the paragraph you propose with the paragraph that now exists. But please only keep in relevant detail. When you do your version, look at every word and ask if the sense is any different if the word is deleted - and if the sense is the same, delete the word.--Toddy1 (talk) 21:19, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

By the way Pugacheva calling Zhirinovsky a clown and a psycho may be something that belongs in Zhirinovsky's biography, but it is of no relevance in this article.--Toddy1 (talk) 21:22, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

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