Talk:Death of Gloria Ramirez

The DMSO issue

This DMSO section seems highly implausible. What would cause the DMSO in her blood to react with the oxygen in her lungs to form dimethyl sulfate? Is this reaction spontaneously occurring? The author also wants us to believe that evaporation at room temperature of a chemical whose boiling point is 370 C would produce enough gas to affect several people in a large room. This explanation seems to violate even my meager understanding of chemistry. Coupled with the fact that it lacks a source, this article seems highly dubious. Is there anyone that knows more about this case and can provide a source and better explanation of this DMSO theory? Terron (talk) 19:19, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I strongly agree with this. The entire DMSO section is totally ludicrous. "DMSO is relatively harmless, but with one oxygen atom added, it becomes dimethyl sulfone, But now add two oxygen atoms to dimethyl sulfone it becomes dimethyl sulfate." Really? Water is two atoms away from an explosive mix of pure oxygen and hydrogen gas, but you don't see lakes spontaneously exploding. Provide a plausible reaction, or this statement is totally useless. The rest of it is a weak chain of "Somehow the blood becomes supersaturated with DMSO" and "Somehow it turns into dimethyl sulfone" and "somehow it became airborne". Combined with a complete lack of citations, I am radically altering this section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.14.97.72 (talk) 17:44, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I agreed until I read the discovery article. They make an excellent case. 76.105.183.62 (talk) 13:00, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Response to Terron: Please see the technical references added to the main article. The boiling point of a chemical compound, although related, is less important in this case than the material’s vapor pressure at ambient temperature. As for dimethyl sulfate, an oily liquid at room temperature, its vapor pressure is greater than that of (for example) naphthalene (mothballs). As most people can readily detect a presence of mothballs in their proximity, and only microgram to milligram quantities of dimethyl sulfate were necessary for the Riverside incident, the postulated toxic vapor for the ER insult would seem not to be a problem.

Response to Unsigned: Before you pass judgment on anything chemical, you would do well to gain at least some rudimentary comprehension of chemistry, chemical properties, and chemical reactions. Based on this example of your understanding, you would also be strongly advised to refrain from editing anything in this area – or at least remaining anonymous. What’s true is that if you add an oxygen atom to (liquid) DMSO via a suitable oxidation reaction, you get (solid) dimethyl sulfone, popular as a cutting agent for street drugs among other uses. If you further add another oxygen atom, you get (liquid) dimethyl sulfate, a deadly poisonous substance with measured LD₅₀ values and myriad warning labels. So, yes, single-atom changes in chemistry are known to alter many physical and chemical properties of matter, in this case going from an ingestible substance to a toxin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.115.27.11 (talk) 00:13, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Hello? This woman had cancer. Chemotherapy does monstrous things to a person's biological chemistry. Even after you stop chemo, it stays in your system for some time. This could have been some reaction/combination of the chemo with the DMSO. Has anyone put forth that idea, or am I completely off base? --Bluejay Young (talk) 09:04, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Ramirez was described by those directly involved in the case as a noncompliant patient with terminal cancer. Conventional chemotherapy was not part of her medical history. However, there were rumours (only) at the time that she may have made trips to Mexico for laetrile or other unconventional treatment(s). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.130.251.139 (talk) 07:20, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm ignorant of chemistry, but this article now seems to be self-contradictory. First, "However, [the Livermore scientists] were unable to put forth any possible reaction that could have transformed the one to the other, much less a reaction that could realistically take place within a human body." Yet later, "The first [Livermore] paper was very technically detailed and did, in fact, give two potential chemical reaction mechanisms that may possibly have formed dimethyl sulfate from dimethyl sulfoxide and dimethyl sulfone precursors." So, did it or didn't it describe potential reactions? I guess I could read the paper, but I don't really care to. S. Ugarte (talk) 18:33, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

I reverted an assertion that the DMSO4 would have completely reverted to DMSO by the time the hazmat team showed up because it has a 12-hour half-life. Based on the Discovery article, the team showed up at 11pm, less than three hours after Ramirez was admitted. Assuming this is true, only a small fraction, about 15%, of the DMSO4 would have converted to DMSO, and hence would have been detectable if it was present and tested for. Martin Blank (talk) 01:34, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

The oxidation of the highly stable DMSO2 to DMSO4 is impossible. DMSO2 is also being used as a health supplement. The reaction of DMSO to DMSO4 by oxygen or air has also not been observed. The references about this need to be replaced by peer reviewed refs, see WP:MEDRS. It is likely that then little is left over from the theory. There is no room for synthesis from various popular/press refs. It is more "Believe it or not: Cow with two heads foretells future", "Abominable snowman sightings in Appalachia", etc. 70.137.145.5 (talk) 18:34, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Bad time signatures

She was admitted at 8:15, was sedated with meds and when she failed to respond to treatment they began defibrillating. Later in the article it says she died at 8:50, after 45 minutes of CPR and defibrillation. So basically 10 minutes before she arrived at the hospital she was being ressucitated and then once she arrived they sedated her and began defibrillating. --Carbonrodney (talk) 10:12, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Law & Order

This is a sad and bizarre story, but I think there was an episode of Law & Order inspired by this. It opened up with a woman dying in the hospital. The staff was trying to save her when they noticed an odd smell. The nurse became short of breath and passed out while stating that the smell was coming from the patient. They evacuated and all that and summoned the police. Jerry Orbach played one officer and I think Benjamin Bratt played the other one. The doctor explained that the woman smelled like cyanide, which he described as smelling like dirty sweat socks. Orbach told him, "I thought it smelled like bitter almonds," and the doctor replied, "Either one." Someone described the woman as having "the breath of death". It turned out that the woman had been poisoned and the nurse(s) who had passed out had fainted due to panic. That solved that mystery, but then they had to discover who had killed the woman and why. Is this sounding familiar to anybody? As far as the discussions above, I know something about chemicals, but I'm not an expert. I can't provide any meaningful input, but here's an old poem you might enjoy. "We all remember Johnny, but Johnny is no more/'Cause what he thought was H20 was H2SO4". Evernut (talk) 17:21, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Proposition to move page.

I think we should move this page to Death of Gloria Ramirez or something similar. This article seems to be about her ER visit and death, not her life and who she was as a biography. I feel that would be a more appropriate title for the contents of this article. --Posted by BobThePlatypus at 22:46, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Not encyclopedic tone

This article needs to loose the "THIS IS THE TRUTH AND THE BASTARDS ARE TRYING TO HIDE THE TRUTH FROM THE PEOPLE!!" tone. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.29.89.42 (talk) 01:53, 17 January 2014 (UTC)