Talk:Indus Valley Civilisation

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shiva/pashupati seal

Dear All,

I politely ask you to see deer image encrypted on throne/seat of Proto Shiva or pashupati seal. Can you trust your eyes? if yes than please see pashupati seal and verify if it is a bull or deer? If great authors did mistake in seeing things , doesn't mean that we must continue the same mistake. Can we blind ourself if others cannot see?

look at ancient/modern images from google of jain tirthankar with symbol of deer below his seat. Moreover one can clearly see difference between bull and a deer. the pashupati seal/proto shiva in wiki article clearly shows exact figure of deer...so why is everyone confused? There are more than 1000 pictures of centuries old temples of jain tirthankar shantinath. Please see those images.

One more thing,all jain texts are not available on net like "agams", one can read on wiki that jain texts like "agams" were written 6-3rd century BCE.But nobody has put it online.

Jain Religion begins with Tirthankar Rishab the first person of Ikshwaku Vamsa...than comes surya vamsa than...raghu vamsa..than...All these ' vamsa ' were offsprings of ikshvaku vamsha ( source: Wikipedia , ikshwak106.195.210.153 (talk) 17:17, 8 December 2013 (UTC)u vamsha' ) . Till date historians agree with history of three tirthankars parasnath and mahaveer (as others are yet to be confirmed). It is not true that jainism started only 6-7th century BCE.

Source : More than 10,000 ancient places, pictures of centuries old Jain tirthankar Shantinath on google with symbol of deer.Also there is not even a single picture or temple of shiva with deer on his seat. Should we stop trusting our eyes and say that pashupati seal/proto shiva has buffalo seal when one can clearly see it is a deer?

findings & concepts should always be a welcome.please look at those sources provided . warm regards

Dr Prashanna Jain Gotani (talk) 21:10, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

We don't include material that is not backed by solid sources. I assume you're doing the research connected with these seals and we'll include the material once it is published in peer reviewed journals. Thanks. --regentspark (comment) 12:35, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

I have asked this editor to stick to sources that meet WP:RS and reminded him of our guidelines which say " Article talk pages should not be used by editors as platforms for their personal views on a subject." Dougweller (talk) 13:07, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Pashupati seal shows seated ithyphallic figure surrounded by animals, possibly Shiva, as per common theory. Jain tirthankararas are never depicted as ithyphallic and in Hinduism also only Shiva is the only deity which is depicted as ithyphallic - that is why most of noted researchers have related seal with Shiva. Jain theories are fringe theories and they never discuss about why the seated figure is shown ityphallic because that will take away their argument that possible figure is Jain either they are fringe theory or original research not backed by third party scholars. Most of these theories are written by Jain scholars only recently. Jethwarp (talk) 03:48, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

The other apart from being ithyphallic reasons why it is related to Shiva are well known but I will repeat it - Shiva is generally depicted as sitting in yogic mudra as is seal and he is also referred to as Pashupati - the name implying Lord of Animals - that is why seal was named Pashupati seal. Jethwarp (talk) 03:59, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Pashupati seal Does not shows seated ithyphallic. It shows animals surrounding a human. All of 24 tirthankararas are associated with 1 animal.For Example Lord Mahavir is associated with Lion, Pasarvnath with snake, Rishab with Bull, Shantinath with Deer. The striking feature is that, there is deer below the seat of human (Exactly this is the way jains put one animal as a symbol below the seat of their Tirthankaras). All tirthankars are shown sitting in lotus position/Yogic Mudra on a seat/throne. All tirthankars are nude but not ithyphallic like shiva. I saw similarities and some mistakes. Therefore i shared my knowledge. I think it is good to have others opinion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 106.204.213.43 (talk) 00:00, 17 November 2013 (UTC) Jainism teaches tolerance to other religions but it also teaches to stand for truth. Hinduism and Jainism both originated from Indus civilization and both are as old as history can go. So, how can one say that there cannot be (or must not be) any Jain idol or picture in Indus valley? how can one say that there cannot be roots of Jainism in Indian history/Indus valley? Yes , Pashupati is one of the names of shiva. Hinduism is very popular in India. Can any one tell me if, Hindus place a small icon of animal under the seat/throne of Shiva exactly like this in picture?

As far as the name " pashupati seal is concerned, it was given by a british archaeologist. Probably because Hinduism was very popular and Shiva rides on bull. Also because pashupati is one of the names of shiva. But, this is a modern nomenclature, there is no such name as 'pashupati seal' in brahmi language. It is not the name written on the picture. Therefore i am sharing my knowledge of history. dissemination of knowledge is not a crime...why my posts are deleted with bias? Yes I have been to Kathmandu Pashupati Nath temple and i have seen the idol of shiva. It is different !Dr Prashanna Jain Gotani (talk) 00:41, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

I think Lord Shiva is also called as "Adinath Shiva" and he is associated with "OX/Bull" . Many historians have quoted that "pashupati Seal" or " Proto Shiva" is sitting on "buffalo". However, "buffalo" is associated with 'god of Death' or 'Yama' not Shiva.Hence there is mistake while looking at the seal/picture.. In every picture of shiva there is snake in throat,crescent moon, matted hair, sacred ganges, mount kailash, trishul and damru missing in this picture.

I have decided to add some references on demand:

1) Picture of Tirthankara Shantinath in lotus/Yogi position on a seat with Deer engraving on his seat: , , http://www.ejainism.com/shantinathmaindes.htm, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shantinath,

2) Picture/Idols of 24 Jain Tirthankara in lotus/Yogi position on a seat with specific animal engraving below their seat: , http://www.idjo.org/site/24_Jain_Tirthankars.aspx

3) Short biography and Picture of Tirthankara Shantinath with animals surrounding him. , http://www.jainoutlook.com/shantinathprabhu.php

4) Short biography of Tirthankara "Adinath Rishaba" (aka 'Ri-Shiba'). , , http://www.herenow4u.net/index.php?id=74977, http://www.ejainism.com/rishabhamainevents.html,

5) Picture of Tirthankara Rishab dev with animals : Dr Prashanna Jain Gotani (talk) 13:48, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

@ Prashanna Jain Gotani --- These are your original research and are you aware you cannot cite wikipedia article as reference !!!

Just click at image of seal below to see enlarged - it shows the person sitting cross-legged, wearing a horned head-dress and ithyphallic ( which means erect phallus), there are several sources on-line which confirm this also. This image is better than one shown in article - I propose, we replace it with this image. --- Jethwarp (talk) 04:26, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Quick notes:

• The new image appears clearer, but note that it is not a photograph of the actual seal. It is an image of a mould made from the seal, and the mould itself is pretty poor, obliterating all facial features of the figure, the ribbing on the horns etc. Also the original image gives a clearer idea of the material of the seal, and the fact that its corner is broken. So while not a big deal for this article, I'd prefer the original image over this new one.
• Secondly, I read several sources in reworking the religion section, and didn't find any mention that the figure in the seal has been linked to Jain Tirthankaras by any reputable scholars in the area. I plan to expand coverage of the topic at Pashupati, or in an independent article, so if there are any scholarly sources that make such a claim, I'd love to see them. Abecedare (talk) 05:34, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Abecedare, please see if the sources quoted here User:Indian_Chronicles/Jain_Sources#Links_to_Indus_Valley satisfy your requirement or not. I leave it to you. Thanks.--Indian Chronicles (talk) 06:30, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll take a look. Abecedare (talk) 06:35, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Indus

Indus word came form Hindu's (HINDOO's) where in "H" is silent.

69.142.93.157 (talk) 15:44, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Not done: it's a bit more complicated than that. The etymology of the name is described in Indus River#Names and etymology. --Stfg (talk) 17:06, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Date without year

"On 11 July, heavy floods..." It would be nice to know in which millennium this happened. The reference suggests 2010 but I am not sure enough to make the change. AlexFekken (talk) 09:16, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 December 2013

hello i want to edit this text to make it more simple and do some grammar fixes thank you regards fjhjfk — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lfjjbjfo (talk • contribs) 21:18, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Hindutva, Mythistory, and Pseudoarchaeology

Cynthia Ann Humes, Numen, Volume 59, Issue 2-3, pages 178 – 201 2012[1]

Abstract: This essay elucidates ideologically-inspired interpretations of the South Asian archeological record, particularly by those called Hindutvādins, and those who write about (and against) them. I first survey briefly the chief points in the history of archaeology in examining the Indus Valley Civilization. Next, I describe some of the major controversies that reflect claims of Hindutva pseudoarchaeology in the South Asian context. Throughout, I illustrate the increasingly virulent interactions between Hindutva proponents, indigenist theorists, and academic interpreters, and what these debates foretell of the future of Indus Valley studies.

Looks useful. Dougweller (talk) 15:53, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

The dating on this page is incorrect and extreamly out dated from todays dates

In 2012 the new dates had been published at 7500 BC to 6200 BC, making the indus valley older then egypt by over 2000 years!

This page is Highly important to world history, children from all over the world visit this page for information yet the dates you have given are from the John Marshall of 1922, we are in 2014 alot has changed!82.38.160.153 (talk) 03:40, 3 February 2014 (UTC)VE