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'Visual' Filmography... ?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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(1st attempt)

I am seeking feedback on an idea for the filmography tables, that being, making them more visual. I have created one as a proof of concept, using the filmography of Justin Timberlake, as he has a smaller filmography, but all feature films. This could be applied in several different ways; it could accompany the existing table, replace the table, or be added at the bottom of the page. This example is collapsed, which again, is just one idea, but this doesn't mean it has to be collapsed. Please have look and let me know what you think. - thewolfchild 01:00, 7 October 2013 (UTC) (I have now removed the two examples I had original posted, as the wiki-police keep gutting the images from them, thereby defeating the entire purpose of posting them. You can't have a discussion about how something looks, when there is nothing to look at.) The following links are to another page where I had initially created these proofs of concepts; example 1, example 2, example 3, example 4, example 5 feedback Oppose. Not suitable for an encyclopedia, not least because of WP:NFCC. --Rob Sinden (talk) 12:58, 7 October 2013 (UTC) - Thanks for the reply. But, could you expand upon it a little? "Unsuitable" how? And, how is it you think NFCC applies? Thanks. - thewolfchild 13:03, 8 October 2013 (UTC) It's not the best way to display the information, a filmography table is suitable enough. What do we gain by adding all the pretty pictures which would fail multiple criteria at WP:NFCC and presents the information in a less accessible manner? --Rob Sinden (talk) 13:14, 8 October 2013 (UTC) Besides the obvious case why I removed the files on this page (WP:NFCC#9 non-free media can only be used in articles). See WP:NFC#UUI The use of non-free media (whether images, audio or video clips) in galleries, discographies, and navigational and user-interface elements generally fails the test for significance (criterion #8). A filmography is just a variant of a discography. See also WP:NFTABLE Werieth (talk) 13:39, 8 October 2013 (UTC) Again, how can you discuss making a change, if you can't see what you're discussing? I see no reason why images cannot be used to that end, on a project talk page. (At lease until the discussion is closed). As for NFCC#9, see: Exemptions. Also see WP:NFLISTS and WP:NFTABLE. They both clearly state that there are exemptions on a case-by-case basis. Then, beyond all that, is the fact that these are only guidelines. I am not looking to break them, rather I'm here looking to discuss if they should be ignored or changed. The images I'm using are simply movie posters from the actual, individual WP articles, that are being listed in the filmography. Why not consider this? Keeping in mind the layout I used and the info I included were just part of the example of the idea I am bringing here. Rob states that; "...a filmography table is suitable enough." Why? According to who? Rob then writes; "What do we gain by adding all the pretty pictures...". The immature quip aside, what is gained is an enhanced reading experience due to the added visual aspect. As for Werieth, I would have appreciated it if you had just commented on the idea itself, instead of getting hung-up on policy and trying to shove it in my face, whether it really does, actually apply or not. (We get it, you like deleting stuff. But you do carried away with sometimes.) - thewolfchild 20:11, 8 October 2013 (UTC) You need to read the WP:COPYRIGHT rules. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:27, 8 October 2013 (UTC) Yup, read it already. So what? - thewolfchild 01:39, 9 October 2013 (UTC) (edit conflict)Actually, please check your attitude. If you want an exemption WT:NFC is the place to request one. Until such time as consensus is in favor of your request, there is no exemption. If you want policy instead of guidelines to back my position See WP:NFCC#1,WP:NFCC#3,WP:NFCC#8. Your visual improvements go against the m:Mission of Wikipedia to provide free content, not only in regards to access, but the licensing of the content. The bar for usage of non-free media is fairly high, why is not having a picture in a filmography detrimental to understanding the actor or actress? Especially when we can provide a link to the full article on the related film with which includes the poster? Also regardless of what this wikiproject decides it cannot override the non-free content policy. If you want to discuss changing policy WT:NFC is the place for that. Werieth (talk) 20:27, 8 October 2013 (UTC) Oh, please... you're the last person who should be preaching about attitude. I see you quoted more NFCC#'s, which means that you, again, have entirely missed the point. Regardless, I have changed the examples so that no images are included and why would I seek a policy change for and idea that I have simply proposed for feedback, and is nowhere near consensus for inclusion? - thewolfchild 01:39, 9 October 2013 (UTC) oppose and speedy close 1) unacceptable per copyrights 2) formatting nightmare 3) text and reading are good, no need to accelerate the dumming down of people to read by replacing everything with pictographs. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:37, 8 October 2013 (UTC) Your oppose is noted, along with your reasons (including the snarky one). You guys need to relax. This was simply an idea I posted on a talk page, it's not as if I went and actually changed any articles. It would be nice if you could just reply with a simple opinion, leave out the rudeness and quit trying to bog everything down with endless policy and guideline cites. Oh, and 3 replies a speedy close does not make. - thewolfchild 01:39, 9 October 2013 (UTC) Oppose as per all the comments above. It won't happen. Nymf (talk) 13:41, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

(2^nd attempt)

My question is basically this; What do some people here think about the possibility of adding a thumbnail image of a movie poster to the corresponding entry of an actors' filmography? I'm just looking for feed back on the concept. I realize some users feel there may be an NFCC issue, but even if there is, I don't think it is particularly clear cut, and if there was enough demand/consensus for the idea, then NFCC could be addressed then. I'm not looking for complaints about NFCC here and now, just simple feedback on the concept itself. Wikipedia is full of images. It is a visual medium. I feel adding these images, in one fashion or another, could really serve to enhance these filmographies. Thanks - thewolfchild 13:48, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

• Yes if image is free, see below no movie article, no otherwise due to the spirit of WP:NFCC and arguably the letter of U.S. copyright law. If there is no movie article, there may be a fleshed-out section in the actor's bio page or filmography page which discusses the movie in enough detail that a page could be made if the movie passed WP:Notability. In these cases, I have no problem supporting the placing a movie poster in the section that discusses the movie because this section would be the one and only place in Wikipedia which discussed the movie in the level of detail usually found in an article. Due to the fact that this dances very close to the edge of WP:NFCC and possibly U.S. copyright law, this would have to be discussed first and likely on a case-by-case basis. In other words, if the filmography were written with a fleshed-out section for each movie, then yes, I would support using a non-free image in the same section as that discussion of that movie just as we currently use movie posters in movie articles. However, I don't see enough justification for putting the thumbnail of a non-free image in a "list-only" filmography to warrant it.

Note: It's my reading of WP:NFCC and related policies that Wikipedia already allows the use of the image if the image itself is the subject of significant critical commentary, regardless of what article the commentary is in, subject to restrictions like "minimal uses" (e.g. use only a crop if that's all that is needed, minimal resolution, don't use at all if a textual description will do, etc.).

davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 21:10, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

RfC on Charlie Chaplin's birth date

I have opened an RfC on the Charlie Chaplin article, since there is some uncertainty over what date we should give as his birthday. The information and RfC can be found here: Talk:Charlie_Chaplin#Suggesting a possible change or addition to his birth date. Any input would be much appreciated. --Loeba (talk) 11:54, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Feedback please

I have come across a situation with some filmographies that I would like some project and community feedback on. There are many BLP's about actors where the filmography is so large, that it is split off onto it's own page. One of the issues here is that some of the pages are now having a large amounts of content added, which is in effect turning this page into another BLP. One example would be the Jessica Lange filmography. It appears that, during 2012, one editor first created a standard filmography page, but then over a period of 4 to 6 months, with approx. 400 edits, completely transformed it. It now has a lengthy lead, that is basically a "Career" section from a BLP, but also the format of the tables were changed to a questionable format. For the 'Film' table; single buletting for characters, 'Notes' column removed completely, columns added for Box office and Rotten Tomatoes scores, and the 'Television' table; the formatting changed to include individual episodes and dates, dividers are missing and the layout is somewhat unreadable. I have tried contacting this user, but they have not been active for almost a year. Another example of this is the Arnold Schwarzenegger filmography, though not as extreme. I'm not sure when the changes were made there, or by whom.

Recently, following this example, another editor, has taken upon themselves to make major changes to the filmographies of at least 9 prominent actors, ( seen here: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, with plans for a 10^th), using the Lange page as a reference. Again, these had a great deal of editorial content added, some of it questionable, a lot of it duplicative, and basically converting these pages into BLP's unto themselves. Again, the formatting for the tables had been changed, there is now info missing, such as award nominations, and other comments such as "direct to video", "voice role", "also directed", alternate titles, etc., etc. The added Rotten Tomatoes scores will create addition work to be maintained, (if they are at all, if they aren't, then as they change, the page will be inaccurate). I`ll leave it to others here to decide whether box office totals are necessary. Again, the Television tables are too excessively detailed, they look sloppy and are difficult to follow.

I tried discussing this with the user in question, but they apparently 'left the country' a few weeks ago and have not responded, or contributed since. I have restored these pages, as these changes were made without discussion or consensus, and they have multiple issues. (I would ask that those wishing to comment on this action alone, please do so under a sub-subheading here - I would prefer this discussion focus on the main issue).

Some of the questions here are;

• Should such major changes be made arbitrarily? (is this even considered as 'bold'?)
• Should these pages have so much content? (issues with duplication and BLP)
• Are these major, wholesale modifications to the table formatting acceptable?
• Are we content with the current layout of filmographies, or should we be considering changes in line with these?

I ask this last question because firstly, I do believe these changes were made in a good faith effort for improvement. I also note that after these changes, some other editors made subsequent contributions to these pages, and there was no apparent reaction to said changes (whether they noticed them or not, assumed they were standard, didn't know enough to react or simply didn't care to, I cannot say).

Thanks - thewolfchild 16:32, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

My thoughts are this:

• Content should not be duplicated across the biography, the filmography, the films, and related articles except in summary form or as absolutely necessary for context. That's what wikilinks and {{main}} are for. If for no other reason, having multiple copies of information can lead to information being updated in one place but not another.
• Wikiprojects can and probably should provide recommendations for the sake of cross-article consistency, but if the editors of a given article or set of articles choose a different way of doing things, editors who participate in the Wikiproject have the same say-so in how things are done as those who do not.
• Since I'm not active in this Wikiproject and I'm not active editing film-related articles except in relation to other tasks, I'll abstain from the specific questions like how to format tables.

davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 17:12, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm not specifically active on this Wikiproject, but I do edit a lot of articles that fall under it (mostly due to landing on my vandal/BLP/EW-tracking radar). Several of the types of changes here are commonly edit-warred (and eventually returned to the current WP:FILMOGRAPHY recommendation) relate to the WP:FILMOGRAPHY guideline. The blue/gray styling vs wikitable standard: unless someone has a rational argument for not following the site-wide style-sheets and formatting standards, I think we should follow them precisely because they are the site-wide standards. ROWSPAN to unify multiple films in a year vs fully independent rows: it's still an accessibility problem in general and Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Tables (again, a sitewide guideline) says it's a problem for sortability as well (though in my experience some browsers seem to handle it better now). COLSPAN for subheaders/subsections of tables vs various other solutions for organization: against accessibility guidelines and breaks sorting, also makes the content as a whole less structured (less specific TOC searching/linking, harder to scan by eye in my experience, etc.). DMacks (talk) 17:39, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

• Comment. WOW! That Jessica Lange filmography is horrendous. It seems that an over-zealous fan has spent an awful lot of time on this, but sadly it doesn't remotely comply with our MOS. I actually feel a little ill trying to work out how to unpick it all. --Rob Sinden (talk) 13:01, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Like I said, he re-wrote 9 other major filmographies to look like Lange's. I simply restored them to the point prior his contributions. - thewolfchild 20:16, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Good work. I've unpicked the Jessica Lange one now. Hopefully that's the end of it, but somehow I doubt it. --Rob Sinden (talk) 11:00, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Both the Brad Pitt filmography and George Clooney filmography pages are still somewhat of a mess, if you or anyone else cares to take a look. They were altered by this user as well. - thewolfchild 04:20, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Requested page move

Hi, you might be interested in participating in a discussion at Talk:Michael Powell.♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:34, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Actor's career - roles portrayed

Where is the policy or guideline that shows which roles are suitable (or otherwise) for inclusion in the career section of an actor's biog? I'm sure that we must have one, because I read it a few years back; and there must still be something of the sort, since some filmographies have no minor roles at all - which means that they were either removed at some point, or excluded from the start. See this edit and User talk:Redrose64#Nicola Bryant. --Redrose64 (talk) 10:59, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

well there is the general WP:UNDUE - we give weight / coverage where the reliable, third party sources give weight. Where there is only the primary source of the walk-on role on the film/ the advertisement that they appeared in, WP:PSTS we dont need to cover it. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 11:48, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Naming of three articles

What do people think of the current names of these articles that share the same common name:

• Mary Anderson (silent film actress)
• Mary Anderson (stage actress)
• Mary Anderson (1940s and 1950s film actress)

I think that last one is terrible and think they should be in the format of Mary Anderson (actress, born xxxx). Thoughts? Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 18:56, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Good catch Lugnuts. I would agree with moving the article to "born XXXX". Especially considering the fact that she acted from 1939 to 1965. MarnetteD | Talk 19:17, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Right, I've been bold and moved them. Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 08:18, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

User:Light show

I started this project back in 2007, and when I did so I only wanted people joining the project who were prepared to work with others in good faith and work together in improving content for actors and filmmakers in harmony. I'm not happy that this project has on board such a troll who seems intent on causing problems with articles involving editors he has personal issues with which is deliberately troublesome and mean spirited. I wondered if anybody else here has encountered similar problems with this editor. Anybody who shows a repeat patterning of editing and harassment of the edits of others which amounts to trolling should be forced to leave this project. It is disruptive and not helpful towards the mission of what we're trying to achieve as a group. There is a difference between constructive criticism and excessive repetitious warring over a long period picking holes in everything.♦ Dr. Blofeld 23:07, 7 November 2013 (UTC)