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Off-topic

American cars in Cuba

The 2002 documentary film "Yank Tanks" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0312048/ (Carros Clasicos de Cuba) delves into the inventive methods Cubans use to keep their pre-revolution American cars on the road, as well as the politics they must deal with to keep their back-alley garages open. Best Documentary winner at the 2002 Los Angeles Latino International Film Festival.

Democracy in Cuba

Internet in Cuba

The matter of control of the internet arose in the latest OAA (Organization of American States) conference "At Washington's insistence, the final Declaration of Santo Domingo, which will be issued when the conference ends today, notes that the Internet, without political censorship, can develop democracies. To underscore the point, Zoellick reminded the General Assembly that Cuba ``has the highest controls on the Internet." [1] El Jigue 6-7-06

These 'democracy' themes, should and does work well at the 'high' political level(when was the last time philosophy was discussed in prime time?) but be very aware of your surroundings when you deciede to defend with logic instead of weapons, your 'high' moral and 'civic' standards...I tell you, I missed the memo that gave into these ideologies and pretty much put logic under the command of the military and politicians.

There is no telling what a controlled society could do..

I hope everything works out peacefully. But you said a great point: When was the last time philosophy was discussed in prime time? It goes right down to the point of why people can't have interests in politics. They think that what the prime time tells them, is all that there is to philosophy and politics. Teemu Ruskeepää 18:43, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Pseudo democracies under tighter control

Senator Lugar refers to pseudo democracies [2], which now, given recent past history of turning into real democracies, are under far tighter control. However, in this article Cuba is specifically excluded from this category. El Jigue 6-9-06

If politicians were the ones writing these articles, we would be reading codes, instead of deciphering them...what is real democracy? an 'narchy' country with a government made up of five individuals?

Gueyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy! Oh come on try and be more specific that is a standard line from text of Apologia Catechism 101. El Jigue 6-9-06

Hold up just a minute...who gave the lecture on what constitute a democracy versus what is supposed to do and what really it is...a philosopher? a political science major in the US?...or marginal writer and thinker?...and when did this happen???

The only real democracies were the Greek city-states - and they disenfranchised the majority of the population. Anything that is called a democracy fails to live up to the ideal in one way or another. There is a whole range, the question is where does one draw the line. -- Beardo 14:18, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Family

The following attempts to make an impression based on flaws or misunderstood premises..."Children are required to take part in social activities outside of the home, such as working in the fields during holidays to prevent them from becoming blind intellectuals."

Children are encouraged to take part in social activities outside of the home (and according to their ages), as expected from a Socialist society, even if it means working in State crop fields. 'Blind intellectuals' is a perceived characterization, which speculates on what happens to people when they grow older. It seems, the social responsibilities placed on the Youth, expects a 'help' now mentality and does not bear fear as to what they'll later do in life.

That 'children' work the fields is based on Camp Schools(Escuela del Campo) and it involves attending classes and helping in crop fields for 45 days out of the year. This begins in the 7th grade and could last till college graduation...

For such a short section, it seems more focus on accusing and insulting, rather than to give valid information...clearly a slant commentary...

Deserves a look or two...

The Cuban Government doesnt force children, they have a voluntary organisation which is very similar to the "Pioneer" movement in Russia. Danil

Update

It seems as if somebody deleted some things that we were working on...not a problem, this doesnt mean they are giving up, it means they will continue to do whatever they deem necessary...

Also the Military section is a carbon copy from the US state department(which means alot of things)...it is not cited as so or even sourced...most information from the '90s'...

Also..."Cuba also adopted a "war of the people" strategy that highlights the defensive nature of its capabilities."...it rather highlights the intention of defending its land, the weapons got technical cababilities to use as offensive or defensive. as an example, in Bay Of Pigs, the Cuban army was able to front a defense against the attackers, and then it drove them out or captured them...

We talked about the Sports and Cuisine sections, some ideas were given, hopefully the new changes could be reviewd here soon...

Deletions

Once again, someone seem to be running out of words or simply defending the 'status quo', the best way they know how, which is trying to quite others...due to patience, we have time...

I took the liberty in requesting help...how they look at it is simple, im sure this is not the first time, is a tug of war, but it does not involve logic or thinking. it merely passes for a weak 'conscious will attack'...

we wait to hear words from admin, before debating the necessary changes to these articles...

Deletions

Its almost a race against time...you see, all this 'data' and information these 'Cuban Experts' are working with are becoming quickly obsolete...it has to do with the 'economic' doings of the Cuban government. that includes, the oil that Cuba receives from Venezuela, the deals signed with China on nickel and transportation, the increase tourism, the US food purchase on the last few years that also includes Cattle (for those Cubans who cant do without their beef)...you are looking at perhaps the start of 'normal' life for most Cubans thanks to some of these deals, since the Soviet Union...it cannot happen according to some folks, how would you demonize Cuba then?...

Let it be known, some of these folks have pretty much 'idolized' Fidel Castro...is no surprise they can't say a sentence on Cuba without mentioning his name (take a look at the sections)...but this is not done because they are concern about Cuba (they would live or move there and work 'the fields') they are actually BENT on milking the money there is to make coming straight from the US government (take a look at Miami's Cuban American National Foundation)...there is money to be made in the United States off the Cuban 'circumstance', make no mistake about it...

We hope these troubles does not hamper on our ability to work on these articles...we hope for this situation to be resolved at its due time...

Additions and general quality

Discussion management

Umm... I have commented many times on Talk:Cuba but now I can't find any of my comments, perhaps due to them being moved to archives. Nevertheless, I can't get to them even via my contributions links. I think that rather than burying old discussions into an inaccessible arcive, the list should be organized. Make a categorial order which deepens in an orderly fashion. I've thought of a permanent root of all the present headings in the article and the control subtitles of "Off-topic", "Intro" and "Additions and general quality". Teemu Ruskeepää 15:42, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Proposed paragraphs

Ultramarine and BruceHallman have agreed that the below paragraphs are acceptable, in keeping with the policy to keep controversial material away from the main page and onto subarticles. I have added the disclaimer (before the Castro revolution) to the health section, which I hope means that less historically motivated users do not misunderstand the context as appeared to be the case before.

Sports mention under Culture

Sports and outdoor recreational activities is a right for every citizen under the Cuban Constitution [1]. Cuba's national past time and most popular sport has been Baseball throughout its history [2]. It also enjoys world wide successes in other sports like Volleyball, Track and Field, Martial Arts and closely behind Baseball in relevance, Boxing [3]. Because professionalism is banned for most sports in Cuba, Summer Olympic sports have gained an added importance for most Cuban expectators. Government spending, especially after the Revolution, has helped Cuba become the most decorated country in the hemisphere, aside from United States, at the Summer Olympics for half a century. [4]

(1)Article 9, Subtext B - http://www.cubanet.org/ref/dis/const_92_e.htm (2)http://www.cubanball.com/history.html (3)http://www.olympic.org/uk/athletes/results/search_r_uk.asp (4)http://www.olympic.org/uk/games/past/table_uk.asp?OLGT=1&OLGY=2004

Fabio Grobart forgotten

One notices that Fabio Grobart agent of the third international has been essentially erased from Cuban history, even if Castro did talk about his massive contributions to the foundation of the Cuban communist party (Third international, Stalinist). Amazing how Castro hogs credit even from this own teachers [3]. El Jigue 5-30-06

Thats sick how he does that...by the way men death tolls are quite high

Unprotecting

I'm unprotecting this now ... wow, I didn't realize it had been a full month. Guess we tend to lose track of things sometimes. Anyway, please keep all of Wikipedia's policies in mind as you continue to edit this article. I hate to admit it, but the only reason I even remembered the protection on this article was because it was mentioned in an article today in the New York Times. D'ohh!! --Cyde↔Weys 03:21, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Have made a couple of changes immediately as per talk page consensus, (see above). There are also a number of factual errors on the page that need to be resolved - I have a list somewhere but it'll have to wait.--Zleitzen 03:34, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Have altered the tag on the truck as for accuracy. Moved a few sections around, removed a bit of clutter. The content changes I have made are to reduce the health and education sections to the agreed passages after endless reworking for consensus. Users should be extremely careful if they wish to edit those sections - should examine the corresponding pages, and do their research beforehand. Have re-added the military section. Also, there is still a lot of roving junk on the page which needs to be trimmed. --Zleitzen 04:10, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Categorize "human rights" under "government and politics".

Now they are separate, which suggests something bad. Teemu Ruskeepää 15:45, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Intro

Hispaniola contains two countries

As a critic clearly noted the island of Hispaniola has a greater population than Cuba; however, Hispaniola contains two countries Haiti and Dominican Republic. Just change island to country. El Jigue 5-30-06

Agree EJ. This shows the problem of letting administrators edit protected articles like that. -- Beardo 02:26, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I do not agree with EJ. Hispaniola is not a country at all, and thus can not be called so! It is right to mantain the word island because of its geographic nature, respecting the proper terminology. Gabriel

Ay vey! Gabriel Please read my first remark. Haiti and Santo Domingo may share an island but they are divided by a massive mountain range Pico Duarte is about 10,000 feet high and two different languages. Even the Tainos considered Haiti which means mountains distinct from Quiskeya which is a name the Dominicanos like to call their part of the Island. El Jigue 6-7-06

I think the point is that Cuba is the most populous country in the Caribbean - this is the point of note which should be mentioned in the introduction. The fact that it is the second most populous island is of (dare I say) secondary importance. -- Beardo 23:17, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Probably my fault - I originally and mistakenly wrote that it was the most populated island in the Caribbean. Forgot about Hispaniola - being two entities. tut tut.--Zleitzen 23:27, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

History

Independent Cuba

Wars of independence

It would seem that the role of Estrada Palma working in the US to support the fighting in Cuba is over emphasized. In the 1895-1898 the roles of Maximo Gomez, the Maceo brother Jose and Antonio, and that of Calixto Garcia are neglected. By the Summer of 95, the Spanish held only the coastal cities, including the Havana. El Jigue 6-18-06

Rename subtitle

Isn't Cuba independent now? The historical nature of the gaining of the independence should be emphasized and make the title void of present day implications. Teemu Ruskeepää 15:48, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

From Batista to Castro

”Batista's” presidential palace

Once the time and date of construction of the presidential palace was in a section labeled Cuban Infrastructure. However, that section has been removed. Now the Presidential Palace has become “Batista's palace.” This is probably the last time I will suggest such a correction, for it seems more appropriate to let the whole article become a source of ridicule, with such laughable entries e.g. "El Jigue 6-20-06"

Cuba Following Revolution

Minor Point: before or after

The following text appears to be in error:

The result was the Bay of Pigs Invasion of April 1961—the rising did not take place and the invasion force was routed. This prompted Castro to clearly declare Cuba a socialist republic, and himself a Marxist-Leninist, which he did in May 1961.

According to this timeline Cuba "officialy" declared itself socialist one day before the bay of Pigs began. Considering that the DGI had dozens of informants in the operation, the invasion was no suprise, but there is a chronological abnormality here. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 01:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I believe that your source is incorrect, as an academic source I have (Keen, Benjamin & Haynes, Keith 'A History of Latin America' Boston/New York, Houghton Mifflin Company, 2004 on page 439) states:

"One month after the Bay of Pigs [i.e. May 1961], Castro proclaimed allegiance to socialism and the Soviet Union, pledging to defend Cuba in the event of another U.S. attack, stepped up it's flow of arms to the island".

There is no chronological abnormality here, for if you look at the policies of the Cuban regime prior to the time, they were not ultra-socialist: the nationalisation of American oil refineries in May 1960 had only occurred as a pragmatic move due to their refusal to process Soviet oil and over half of Cuba's farmland was still in private hands, with relations with the United States not even being broken off until January 1961. Hauser 03:57, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I have several other references that also have the same chronology and they are very specific about the date of April 16, 1961:

1. The Cuban Revolution: Origins, Course, and Legacy, Marifeli Perez-Stable, pg 3
2. Cuba-us, Helms-burton Doctrine: International Reactions, Joaquin Roy, pg 10
3. Collective Political Violence: An Introduction to the Theories and Cases of Violent Conflicts, Earl Conteh-Morgan, pg 151
4. A Timeline From the Guardian UK
5. US department of state

I would disagree with interpretation of the regime prior to this date, but thats not the question here. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 22:40, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

The statement "the rising did not take place " needs to be qualified with two caveats, (a) there was a rising in the middle provinces especially which was far more intense than Castro's own rising and that lasted until about 1967 see War Against the Bandits, and (b) well over 200,000 were arrested "before the invasion" El Jigue 6-16-06

On the timing, I was told the speach occurred during the Bay of Pigs attack. The confusion may be clarified here: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/castro/timeline/index.html, which indicates that a speach made during the Bay of Pigs referred to the revolution as socialist, but at the following May Day celebration Castro described the country as socialist. -- Beardo 14:42, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

That would make sense, perhaps considering there were still some non-Socialists participating in the Government at that stage. Cheers, Hauser 06:51, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Culture

Cuban cuisine

Cuisine

As it is now, it states..."Traditional Cuban food usually lacks seasoning" But then in a 'traditional' offering, Criollo, it states..."Criollo uses many different seasonings, with some of the most common being onion and garlic" I think we could also work on the half top part, it dwells more into the political system, rather than 'cuisine'...the joke we could do without, specially since in Cuisine of the United States, it makes no mention how its citizen receive their foods, specially those who have no say in what they eat at homeless shelters...the same goes for Cuisine of China...

This section is expected to be redone, to actually explain different food preperation etc, that would go more along the lines of 'cuisine'...

One should keep in mind that for the general Cuba population food is rationed and that consumption of beef is in essence forbidden. El Jigue 6-18-06

Cuban Cuisine

...which includes dishes containing beef which is legally prohibited in Cuba, or discussion of Castro’s popularity (it is illegal to insult Castro) than to attempt to continually correct items inserted by contributors who do either not know Cuba or who seem bent on whitewashing the Cuban circumstance. El Jigue 6-20-06

I’m sure you do know Cuba a whole lot, you live there im sure...

Three usages for cows in Cuba...food, milk and work...although because circumstances unrelated to Cuba's self-determination (and not unlike other countries) beef 'has' been scarce in practical terms. but to say that some kind of food is 'legally prohibitive' is none sense...also, with all the hardship on regular Cubans, the average calorie intake is above the 2000 recommended in the United States.

Something to let your worries free...most Cubans in the United states, are white, which means most Cubans in Cuba who have family in the United States could easily afford beef everyday...if they really want to eat beef, beef they shall have...now, stop being concern with the mostly black Cubans who perhaps dont get to eat as much beef as they would like, you dont even care about blacks in the United States...

now that we know whats illegal, should we dwell on whats not? does part of that circumstance helps you unfold the mystery? You talk of Cuba as being the poorest, most oppressed nation in the world (at least you try and make a case for it) while Cuba is not even the poorest nation in the hemisphere, let alone the world...A Cuba, untouched by the capitalist 'helpful' hands for half a century, and yet, it seems, quite right to say Cuba is better off than half of the world, whether or not it gets enough serving of beef to become obese like most people are 90 miles north from Cuba.

If you find no satisfaction in any of this, then you might be a tad over worked and its time for you to drink a glass of wine, you have earned it...

Who are you? At least sign in El Jigue 6-21-2006

The common Cuban can buy beef only twice a year, see Decreto 225 which is enforced by severe punishments [4]. El Jigue 6-21-06

El Jigue - I'm in the process of going through some of your famous "careful suggestions" to change incorrect details on the page. Are you now satisfied with the caption for the truck?--Zleitzen 14:59, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Z: Thank you for your kind efforts. However, it seems that once a correction is made, someone inserts some other piece of disinformation, e.g. Batista did not build the Presidential Palace, nor was it “his.” Then there is this nonsense about beef in Cuban cuisine. In Cuba essentially all beef is reserved for tourists [5] and the “nomenclatura” of the mayambe. El Jigue 6-21-06

Have changed the presidential palace tag, El Jigue. To be honest, the loss of cattle / beef issue isn't really relevant to this section. The article is talking about traditional cuisine, regardless of present availability. If you check Cuisine of Ethiopia it makes no mention of the fact that much of the country was and is in the grip of extreme famine, and thus many of the dishes are beyond the means of most Ethopians. Though on the Cuban Cuisine page some sort of mention could be in order and a link to Ubre Blanca, Cuban cattle being a subject close to my heart as you know, Jigue. Oh, and can you at least sign in? (I'm ribbing you)--Zleitzen 17:14, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

The following is in spanish, well, the source provided by 'el jigue' was in spanish...

" La carne de res se vende solo para turistas o en las carnicerías dolarizadas. "

Like i said before, with the dollars that you send your family in Cuba, they can easily afford beef...i too look forward in moving from this...

Society

Education

Education

Historically, Cuba has had some of the highest rates of education and literacy in Latin America, both before and after the revolution. All education is free to Cuban citizens including university education. Private educational institutions are not permitted. School attendance is compulsory from ages 6 to 16 and all students, regardless of age or gender, wear school uniforms with the color denoting grade level. Primary education lasts for six years, secondary education is divided into basic and pre-university education. Higher education is provided by universities, higher institutes, higher pedagogical institutes, and higher polytechnic institutes. The Cuban Ministry of Higher Education also operate a scheme of Distance Education which provides regular afternoon and evening courses in rural areas for agricultural workers.

See main article Education in Cuba

These two paragraphs can replace the present sections meaning that the page can be unlocked to registered users. --Zleitzen 13:23, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I Agree. Teemu Ruskeepää 16:41, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Public health

Health

(remove WHO stats) The Cuban government operates a national health system and assumes full fiscal and administrative responsibility for the health care of its citizens. Historically, Cuba has long ranked high in numbers of medical personnel and has made significant contributions to World Health since the 19th Century. According to World Health Organization statistics, life expectancy and infant mortality rates in Cuba have been comparable to Western industrialized countries since such information was first gathered in 1957 (before the Castro revolution). C

See main article Public health in Cuba'

Military

Military

Where an earth is the military section? I found a Wikipedia version at [6] Teemu Ruskeepää UPDATE: I found it at Military_of_Cuba, but I think I should be linked here. Teemu Ruskeepää 15:29, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

You're right Teemu, good spot. Here's my proposed paragraph for the military section--Zleitzen 16:22, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Under Fidel Castro, Cuba became a highly militarized society. From 1975 until the late 1980s, massive Soviet military assistance enabled Cuba to upgrade its military capabilities. Since the loss of Soviet subsidies Cuba has dramatically scaled down the numbers of military personnel, from 235,000 in 1994 to about 60,000 in 2003. The government now maintains a state security apparatus under the Ministry of Interior, spending roughly 1.8% of GDP on military expenditures.

See Also Military of Cuba

Ok, that's good. Teemu Ruskeepää 16:38, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Hmmmmmmmmmm I see Teemu has forgotten the Militia. El Jigue 5-30-06

Apparently my documented comments on the composition of the forces in the attack on the palace has been consigned to the archives, thus the "truck" jpg still says Directorio when in reality the forces were mainly Autentico. El Jigue 5-30-06

El, Jigue - I've made a note of a number of your points here: User:Zleitzen/Cuba history sandbox to be looked at when the page is unlocked. I'll change the truck jpg when that happens.--Zleitzen 23:23, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

The first sentence of the Military History paragraph makes no sense: Cuba is not a society, per se, but rather a country, and very rarely is a society militarized—perhaps a geographical area, but not a society. To make the sentence less ambiguous and more neutral, I suggest: "Under Fidel Castro, Cuba experienced a rapid expansion of its military." "Militarized society" evokes images of soldiers marching through the streets and supressing civilians with an iron fist. I don't think it is the intent of the sentence to characterize Cuba as a police state. If it is, then that's not a neutral statement. -- WGee 03:28, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Fair question WGee. Though here is a "Militarized society" source [7]. Also it should be noted that the Committee for the Defense of the Revolution (CDR) was in an internal military wing - plus the Military Units to Aid Production (UMAPS), that were designed to reeducate counter revolutionaries, gays, etc. About two-thirds of the members of the party’s original Central Committee were military officers or veterans of the guerrilla struggle - and the FAR is probably still the most consistently powerful institution ahead of the Communist Party and so on. In this sense Cuba 1959-89(ish) was no different to most other Latin American countries which could also be described as "Militarized societies".--Zleitzen 04:00, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, to be honest, a Military History section should not exist. All of these points about the build-up of Cuba's military have to be included in the main history section—in their historical context. You don't find many history textbooks that discuss military history out of the context of political change or war. -- WGee 23:50, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

There is a military section in the pages of the United Kingdom, the United States, France etc and almost all other nation pages.--Zleitzen 23:55, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

There is a distinct difference between a military history section and a section that discusses the current state of the military. And since those articles are not featured, they cannot be used as archetypes, anyway. -- WGee 02:32, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Go ahead and write the military section the way you see fit, WGee - if you know more about Cuba's military structure. It matters little to me whether it's in or not - but something has to appear on the page to link it to the page Military of Cuba. Featured articles such as Australia and People's Republic of China carry such a section so we're not pushing the boat out here. As for the history, it's almost impossible to describe Cuba's military without referring to the Soviet past - it was the Soviets that provided Cuba's current military apparatus.--Zleitzen 03:15, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, all this time I thought you writing a Military history section, so you can disregard my last two comments. I'm still very concerned, however, with the fact that your proposed paragraph does not cite sources; nor does the main article. WGee 20:33, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Review my comments above where I provide a source.--Zleitzen 03:13, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Although we can agree Cuba's armed forces and military command are very much 'integrated' into 'society', the overall 'work' description when it comes to the people, is no different than the United States's Corp of Engineering...with this I would like to implied that if 'militarized society' is giving a negative description it should be done from 'top to bottom'...

Also, as where 'militias' are given the description of 'trouble makers, disturbers of peace, causing trouble', it is highly unlikely for Cuba's militias to fall under this mantra. Armed conflicts in Cuba has been non-existent after Cuba's Revolution.

who the heck are you and where do you get your information You completely forget the "War Against the Bandits, which lasted longer and involved more casualities than the War Against Batista. El Jigue 6-22-06

Furthermore, the fuction of each country's military must also be described when attempting to reach an aggrement on 'militarized society'. for example, if the overall 'theme' of the military is to protect the population, then is very clear Cuba falls under that, where I would like to enclave this, is at the striking difference between Cuba's military and the military of those 'developed countries.

As a former Cuban soldier under compulsory service at sixteen years of age and a proud current civilian employee of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, I take grave exception regarding the comments above "he overall 'work' description when it comes to the people, is no different than the United State’s Corp of Engineering..." and the especially the comment regarding the supposedly striking difference between Cuba's military and the military of those developed countries: The United States Army Corps of Engineers (USACE) is made up of mostly civilian, voluntary, and well compensated employees; Totaling approximately 34,600 Civilian and 650 military members (http://www.usace.army.mil/who/)and it even includes several thousand non-us citizens (http://www.usace.army.mil/employment/noncitz.htm) in contrast the Cuban military where the service is not voluntary, anyone that does dares refuse, will not only be incarcerated, but will automatically lose their membership in the all important political groups including the University Students' Federation and the Federation of Secondary School Students which is prerequisite for acceptance to any educational institution of higher learning.

Now, it doesn't do much to state that 'brick layers' in the Corps are civilians..."Opportunities within the Continental US are rare for a Non Citizen, but the Corps of Engineers has operating offices in and outside the Continental US"...this is for what is worth...

For the great and 'noble' wars that the US are involved, service is not voluntary either(Vietnam and draft go together hand in hand) so in turn, is not surprising that in order for US students to receive Federal Aid, they must register with the Selective Service, after regestiring, if they are drafted and deciede not to serve, well incarceration occurs as well...

Now, if you would to tell me, that all the Cubans who are in the active duty military are there not under their will, that would be wrong, since the requierment is only for one year...

Furthermore, I would be amused if you or anyone could explain how the Cuban military protected the Cuban population when:

I'm not sure how you should take this...from Raul Castro's(General of the Cuban Army) speech on June 15 2006..."Assurance of victory is based on the blood of the fallen and on the rivers of sweat of Cubans who have worked to bring about our main goal – preventing war, the leader said during a ceremony commemorating the Western Army’s creation."

1. They were sent to butcher thousands in Angola and Ethiopia (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB67/cubatrans2.doc)or when

Only notably intervention by Cuba's troops in another country...hard to say the same for 'developed countries...it also seems to me, that other countries joined the fun...from wiki(After a 14 year independence guerrilla war, and the overthrow of fascist Portugal's government by a military coup, Angola's nationalist parties began to negotiate for independence in January 1975. Independence was to be declared in November 1975. Almost immediately, a civil war broke out between MPLA, UNITA and FNLA, exacerbated by foreign intervention. South African troops struck an alliance of convenience with UNITA and invaded Angola in August 1975 to ensure that there would be no interference (by a newly independent Angolan state) in Namibia, which was then under South African occupation (Hodges, 2001, 11). The Soviet Union began to aid the MPLA and gave much economical support, while Cuban troops came to the support of the MPLA in October 1975, enabling them to control the capital, Luanda, and hold off the South African forces. The MPLA declared itself to be the de facto government of the country when independence was formally declared in November, with Agostinho Neto as the first President.

In 1976, the FNLA was defeated by a combination of MPLA and Cuban troops, leaving the Marxist MPLA and UNITA (backed by the United States and South Africa) to fight for power.

2. One of their most highly decorated generals was caught red handed laundering money for south America’s drug lords along with interior minister (http://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/fidelsreserves102097.html) At least he was given a trial unlike others military officials (http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/cuban-rebels/morgan-executed.htm) or maybe when

Iran-Contra comes to mind...and that was not a one man show...the funny thing about the General's story is, that often is cited as being totally false, that Castro made up all those drug charges against him in order to kill him because he was gaining too much power in the Cuban military...

3. They are sent as I was to play babysitter for escaped U.S. cop killers (http://www.odmp.org/officer.php?oid=11530) or wait it must be when 4. They sent to evict their own people (http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y06/jun06/08e9.htm)

In neither of those stories the word military was mentioned at all, and if you need firepower to evict families in a Communist country or protect criminals from 'unarmed' civilians, something is wrong here...Those rare evictions in Cuba, was due for the illegal sale of houses, houses that most people don't pay for, but think they have the right to sell...Also, emminent domain comes to mind...

I could go on for some time, but I think it would be pointless since your opinions are obviously based on political ideology and leanings and mine have been shaped by my past and recent experiences. R.Ruiz 06/15/2006.

I very much doubt that you could go on, the only two action written in stone on the Cuban side when it comes to military issues abroad, is the Angola 'Civil War' and Che's fighting in Bolivia(and the latter is well, not all that revelant, since Bolivians themselves were doing the fighting)...

Now of course, in no way did I felt under attack, so I didn't feet the urge to defend my personal views, basicly I just wanted to reinfore what I stated at the beginning...what you get here is, that by you defending the actions on the US side, you will also defend the actions of the Cuban side as well...

Reference to the 50'ties' private media

I'd like to remove the sentence at the end about what the revolution caused for the private media. It isn't about how the economy is at present. Teemu Ruskeepää 14:19, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Done Teemu Ruskeepää 16:00, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Official

Suggested addition to Official Links: Link to Official Site of Cuban Embassy in Ottawa, Canada: http://embacu.cubaminrex.cu/canadaingl/

Deletions

I hope that this matter is looked at whenever it warrants attention...instead of deleting what others have said, why not do the same? if at the very least, you could add whatever you would like to add to the conversation, do so, but there are people more than willing and able to debate these issues. it would be of educated people to go on with these discussions, where ever they might lead us...

I propose a dialogue...is what 'dissedents' inside of Cuba demand, but are not capable of archiving, not because the time is not given to them, but because they have to deal with 'reason'. there is no better tool or weapon than logic for these arguments.

Allow us to take our cases to a judge on his own merrit. Logic will not make us both right, there have been promises made about that...lets sit down and let our intention be known. let us come to terms, not by 'spray painting', but by clearly defined colors of nature.

let us come to terms...

This will be moved in a while to an appropriate category, right after your 3 other messages, respectively. Please express your will freely at the appropriate category of your choosing. Please do not add new discussions outside the discussion tree. You can also suggest new categories at "additions and general quality". Teemu Ruskeepää 07:49, 21 June 2006 (UTC)