Talk:Roman Empire

Template:Vital article

Coin in infobox (yes, again)

I'm sorry to do this, but I just realized the two top images of in the article are BOTH of Augustus. (I was reviewing the images after the sad copyright-vio loss of the model that showed the Circus Maximus and Flavian Amphitheatre … sigh.) In terms of cultural literacy, the Augustus of Prima Porta needs to be where it is, IMO. But it strikes me as redundant to have both images at the top be of Augustus. That's the problem with not making these kinds of choices in the context of the informational/educational purpose of the article as a whole. I still prefer to go with an image that the Romans themselves used to personify an aspect of imperial rule, but the argument about representing the Empire with an emperor is perfectly sound, and Trajan seems like the best candidate as reigning when the Empire was at its greatest expanse. See Commons:Category:Coins of Traianus, but please feel free to get creative and go outside that category. If we can agree on an image, but it needs editing, I'll volunteer to take it to the photo workshop at Commons to have it cropped or the background dropped or whatever, so expressing an opinion here doesn't obligate you to further effort. Thanks. Cynwolfe (talk) 16:40, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Proposed images

• 
  Hadrian is a good-looking chap, & the reverse the standard image after some troublesome province had needed teaching a lesson.
• 
  Reverse: Concord(ia) & Spes
• 
  Marcus Aurelius and Victory

It seems to me that if you're going to feature a coin on the infobox, then the image should show both sides, and that it should be of precious metal - gold (aureus), or at least silver (denarius)- thus less corroded and more shiny, and that it should contain the SPQR acronym. The coin you propose above is grotty bronze, with a badly corroded head. Also, the reverse has the legend RESTITUTOR ACHAEAE ("Saviour of Greece") - hardly an Earth-shaking campaign. EraNavigator (talk) 15:42, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

OK, obviously the two aurei above are an improvement on the bronze specimen. But neither contain the official SPQR state acronym, which surely would be desirable in the infobox of the Roman Empire. EraNavigator (talk) 18:50, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean by "official". There's no reason to think that the initialism was more important than other ways of representing the unity of the Empire. In fact, SPQR represents the effort to preserve Republican traditions, and owes its continued use to the formal retention (in some aspects, pretense) of Republican institutions in the Imperial era. The increased use of other abstractions such as Pax, Concordia, Victoria, and numerous others arises from quite official attempts to produce a unifying imperial imagery. The Altar of Victory acquired its symbolic importance in the debate between Symmachus and Ambrose because it was a remaining symbol of that process of unification. J. Rufus Fears has an extended treatment of this, which includes the importance of coinage, in ANRW II.17.2 (1981) with the two very long articles "The Theology of Victory at Rome: Approaches and Problems" and "The Cult of Virtues and Roman Imperial Ideology". These personifications were very much a part of official "self-presentation" (or propaganda) and distinctive of the Empire, though established in the Republic with the temple-dedications to Honos et Virtus and the like by victorious generals from the Second Punic War onward. And in the Dominate they seem to have cared little for the concept of SPQR, while these abstract ladies proliferated. Cynwolfe (talk) 19:13, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

By "official" I mean exactly that: the way that the State was referred to in imperial inscriptions (e.g. on triumphal arches, governmental buildings, etc). Officially, the State remained a Republic (with the same annually elected magistrates - Consuls etc) - whatever the political realities. Senatus Populusque Romanus continued to appear in imperial inscriptions until ca. AD 400. Res Publica Populi Romani Quiritium, or just Res Publica, was an alternative official form. e.g. the epitaph inscription for the imperial statue granted to Marcus Claudius Fronto, a general who was killed in battle with the Sarmatians under Marcus Aurelius (ca. 170): "he fell, bravely fighting until his last breath for the Republic". CONCORDIA, VICTORIA, PAX etc, did not refer to the State: they were propagandistic motifs highlighting a particular quality of an emperor's rule.

PS: here is a Trajanic coin that contains SPQR (unfortunately it's cheap bronze):

File:SPQR COIN Roman.jpg

EraNavigator (talk) 19:57, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Most triumphal arches contain the SPQR acronym: e.g. Arch of Titus, Arch of Trajan, Arch of Septimius Severus, Arch of Constantine. You might consider replacing the coin feature with one of these arches, or its inscription. For example,

Inscription on Arch of Titus

I'm not disagreeing with any of that. All these images can be considered propaganda. The abstractions embody a different aspect of unification under Roman rule, and are characteristic of the Empire. The Roman Empire was not a modern nation-state, which is why it seems useful to avoid imagery (particularly that phony vexilloid that someone just added again) that suggests otherwise. Besides, if the image at the top is only letters, then we don't need an image. The idea is to have a visual impact, an image that encapsulates the article, which is not just a political and military account. The advantage of having a two-sided coin image, as Era Navigator suggested, is that we can have it two ways: we have the emperor on one side, and an image on the other that points to something broader. Like the existence of humanity beyond the masculine ruling elite, however it may be shaped for ideological purposes. I like the opportunity of using the image to announce more of what the current article actually does: to show that the Roman Empire will maybe hold some surprises for the reader that Hollywood and popular (mis)conceptions haven't prepared them for. I've learned a lot myself in researching the article over the last year about economic diversity and social mobility, for instance. These are the kinds of things that the personifications are meant to be embody. Cynwolfe (talk) 17:16, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Ugh.. enough already. We agreed on the coin theme now lets let it stand for at least a couple months before its nit-picked over. I feel kinda guilty for starting all this. Disagree with using photos of triumphal arches. If we must use S.P.Q.R. as a symbol then just use an .SVG rendering of the acronym in some vaguely-Roman font. Placing a photo of a triumphal arch in the infobox is akin to introducing the photo of a flag [1] instead of an .SVG rendition of the same symbol. -- Director (talk) 10:10, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Purpose?

I don't get it. Why is there an image of a coin in the infobox? Why is this necessary? It makes the infobox unnecessarily long.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 20:33, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

If you read through some of the more recent talk page logs, you'll see the point of the coin image was to fill the infobox's coat of arms field with something that was much closer to a state symbol than the previously used vexilloid image. Since the Romans didn't represent the state in the way we do today (indeed Rome wasn't even a state in the way we think of them today), there has been some debate (as you can see) over what is the best fit.
It doesn't make the infobox unnecessarily long. Unless you consider infoboxes themselves unnecessary (as many people do), the infobox has been reduced to covering only the essential points. —Sowlos  22:21, 13 February 2014(UTC)

Since Rome didn't have an official flag or emblem, wouldn't it be more appropriate just leave the "coat of arms field" empty?--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 23:45, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

You make a good point, however it's not actually as simple as that. We technically have similar problems selecting:

• The Empire's official name — It has had many, none of which would be "official" in the modern sense
• Its start date — It had no actual founding; there was a gradual transition from the way things were run in what is commonly termed the Republic
• Its end date — Different parts of the Empire ended at vastly different times
• A map of its territory — We use a map of the Empire's greatest extent, but we have no way to show its final borders
• The capital city — That depends on what era you look at, what historian you ask, and ignores that the capital essentially was wherever the Emperor happened to be
• A single government type — That depends on when
• "The head of state's title" — See Template:Infobox_former_country#Politics
• Its legislature — One could make the argument that the Empire, after its early years, technically had no real legislature
• Its historical era — See the dating issues
• Its official currency — The Empire didn't deal with the minting of currencies at all the way we do today
• Etc

With all that, we could argue that the Roman Empire wasn't technically a state/country at all and as such it would be more appropriate to remove the former country infobox all together. But, we don't do that here or with the articles of other entities in similar predicaments. The nature states has changed over time. Understanding that, we give all the historical entities across this continuum equivalently similar coverage. The fact of the matter is people like pretty "infoboxes", it would likely cause a great deal of trouble if we tried to resist that for this or any other important article, and the former country infobox was obviously made with the modern nation-state in mind, so we're forced to be somewhat flexible with how its fields are used. However, this is not to say we haven't excluded obviously too ambiguous from being placed in the infobox. —Sowlos  01:07, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Main map of Empire

I propose that the map in the infobox used should not be the map at the greatest extent, but the anachronous map of all lands ever under Roman control. For example, southern Scotland was conquered after the greatest extent. Zginder 2013-10-28T19:00:50Z

If its only south Scotland then imo there would be no point. -- Director (talk) 19:46, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Replace Main map ASAP!

I protest to the map of Roman Empire in 117. It contains severe factual errors. Specifically, the map needs to reflect correct boundaries in the Caucasus at the time (in 117).

According to current map, Roman Armenia included the whole South Caucasus, while Colchis, Kingdom of Iberia and Caucasian Albania are located in North Caucasus. The boundaries of Bosporan Kingdom also needs to be corrected.

For two years nobody did notice this. This is the reason why many still think that Wikipedia is completely unreliable. I propose to those people with Graphical skills to edit the current map according to these maps:

• 
• 

Too long

This article is too long. Consider shortening the article. 108.216.22.69 (talk) 17:10, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, but I doubt if mere opinion justifies your tagging for over-length. You'd best offer helpful, specific suggestions on exactly why or how the article should (or could ) be shortened, and meantime, I'm removing the tag. Haploidavey (talk) 17:38, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

As far as I'm concerned the article is actually fine as it is. Regarding such a complex issue as the Roman Empire, trimming it would instead of being an improvement, even detract from its value. Plus the article already links to subarticles. Just leave it as it is. -- fdewaele, 27 April 2014, 19:50 CET.

Please skim the last few archives of a talk page before blindly making such requests. The issue of how long this article should be has been discussed at length. The consensus reached was that this article is actually small given the large topic it covers and that future attempts to shorten it may take place in areas which can be spun off into full sub-articles (leaving behind smaller sections with {{Main}} links at their tops). —Sowlos  12:29, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

yes however it is a very well documented subject, being that many areas of the world had unfortunately lost much of the material of their respective empires, the Roman knowledge survived relatively well compared to other empires because of the efforts of the European and Arabic/Muslim civilizations who inherited them, as long as it is logically organized and has the quick links I think it is good, a summary is good for those looking for a quick overview but an encyclopedia attempts to cover the topics in good depth, and as this is an online source, I don't think it would be good to omit sections for conciseness. General research may cover different things, some things that may be omitted may be entirely useful to others. On that there is not much repetition that I can glean from the article, it would be better to highlight or quote the areas that should be merged or removed if there are cases of repetition you can just have them removed. Other articles are unfortunatley short because we don't know more about some civilizations due to records being destroyed, lost or poorly handled so we have lost that knowledge forever or scholars have not studied in at as much depth or haven't had enough time to 70.69.172.92 (talk) 10:40, 7 May 2014 (UTC)