Talk:Names of God in Judaism

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Plurals of majesty:

I changed the word "fact" to "hypothesis" in the statement that plurals of majesty only appear in late Hebrew. They may only have become common in late Hebrew, but they do appear occasionally in biblical Hebrew- i.e. "Behemoth" would mean "animals," but as it is used in the Book of Job, it refers to a single animal of immense size.

Elah

Judging by the sources stated at Elah, that name should be included on this page. I know practically no Hebrew and so cannot judge whether it should be included under El or Elohim, or as a separate section. Please would someone merge the info here. The entry at that page should then be linked to sourced information here, and the refs removed since that is a disambiguation page. - Fayenatic (talk) 17:22, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh citation requests

I want to clarify exactly why I have felt it so important to mark two sections of this section as needing citation. In the first instance the article makes the strong claim that "usually" such and such but without any real grounds for saying this. Given the fact that there are some significant theological differences between [religious] traditions [...] over this issue it becomes important for NPOV to be sure of what we are saying and why. In the second instances the very strong statement says that "better renderings might be" without saying who considers them better or why. In the interests of accuracy, good citation and NPOV I have flagged these for editorial action. --Lord Matt (talk) 08:17, 10 May 2010 (UTC) [edited by author to remove irrelevant points --Lord Matt (talk) 11:09, 12 May 2010 (UTC)]

*Adonai*

The vowels only respresent the hebrew name of HaShem when read backwards, *as if it were in hebrew* I A O A.

Ih-Ah-Oh-(Omitted - Hebrew is a phonetic language, regardless of how it is spelled/Transliterated in English, the phonetic must remain constant and perpetual, this is the nature of the Pheonician/Hebrew language - cross referrence Sefer Yetzirah)

This should be clarified in the main article.

As the vowel order in the english - Adonai - To not represent the vowels of Adonai, moreover, the Nikkud depicted in the Double Yiddish Yod - which is spoken as Adonai - does not actually translate to *adonai* the word depicted in the article (similar to the man named Adoni-ah (written as Aleph,Dalet,Nun,Yod,Heh,Vav) in I Kings(which is not represented by the Yiddish double yod (with Nikkud - spoken "Adonai").

The name: ADONAI - meaning Lord differs from that represented in text containing the prayers/invocations of HaShem(Heh, Shin-Mem sofit). So this is very confusing as labled in the main article, as Adonai is (Alev, Dalet, Nun, Yod), each of those containing their own Nikkud, and as such the name "Aleph,Dalet,Nun,Yod" bears little resemblence to the actual name of God, other than being attributed by definition "Lord".

When the Adonai referred to that is HaShem (again two words, as stated above, and should be represented to accord as such in English Transliteration for clarities sake as Two seperate words, if not divided by more than a capital letter.) HaShem appropriate when referred to as Adonai, again is represented in Hebrew by the Yiddish Double Yod, with appropriate nikkud for the two vowels (after Yod, and after Waw/Vav - the Heh/Ha in itself is fairly well self evident in prononciation.

This should be clarified by a more one with greater patience and understanding than I.

65.102.21.197 (talk) 11:28, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Source comparison: prayers used in service, in addition to the Torah, Kethuvim, crossreferenced the spoken/verbally invoked - and that which is read from.

In otherwords the information in the main article is definately misleading, unless one is unawares of context/syntax, In addition the actually Spelling of that which is Spoken.

Peruse carefully writing composition is not my strong suite.

65.102.21.197 (talk) 11:28, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Post Script/Afterthough/Clarity.

The name mentioned from Kings contains the root "Adonai" (Adoniyah in Kings is not a representation of the name respresented by the (Heh-Shin-Mem Sofit (HaShem), but is a name of the person who is obviously tied to the Ruler/King/Lord (connected with David as well as HaShem, (Aleph-Dalet-Nun-Yod & Hah-Waw (a name of God)) 65.102.21.197 (talk) 13:39, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

"Adonai"(אֲדוֹנָי) translates into the English as "lord of me" i.e. "my lord", which derives from the word "Adon"(אָדוֹן), meaning "lord".AurumSpiral1235813 (talk) 21:33, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Transliteration of the Tetragrammaton?

Is is YHVH or YHWH? It appears with both spellings in the first section without discussion of the difference - this should be clarified. Hugetim (talk) 18:07, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Whoops, I see the discussion now. I will standardize the use of YHVH throughout the appropriate sections since that seems to be the predominant version. Hugetim (talk) 18:10, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

On the contrary, the Biblical Hebrew page lists the relevant letter as 'waw,' so I'm going with W instead of V (which seems to be the modern way to pronounce the letter). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hugetim (talk • contribs) 18:26, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Original Qere-Kativ as Sh'ma rather than Adonai

I have heard some remarks that the original Qere-Kativ substitution for the pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton may have been Sh'ma (in the Aramaic meaning of His Name rather than the usual Hebrew meaning, given that Aramaic was prevalent when the original ban on speaking the Name in public began. This would explain the most common set of vowels in the Aleppo, WLC, and Cairo codices, which are grammatically improper because they lack a vowel for the first hey in the Name. If the original substituted pronunciation were Sh'ma, the vowels agree and the missing vowel is explained. However, all of my sources on this are anecdotal. Is anyone aware of sources which support or refute this view? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.99.25.2 (talk) 06:24, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Work needed

This article looks like a stomach-churning essay type of writing. As time allows, I'll clean it up, removing no cited facts or significant facts. Please comment here on the talk page with any input or with other issues. Otherwise, what are these talk pages meant to do for us?Djathinkimacowboy^(yell) 02:54, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

This article reads like a religious tract, not an objective presentation of data, concepts or issues. Phrases such as the one true God used in "Elah is used to describe both pagan gods and the one true God." need to be restated in ways that don't make them sound so preachy, for example, by italicizing the debatable allegations of oneness and trueness (and removing the capital letter from "God", which doesn't make sense in this phrase, as capitalized "God" is a proper name and [other than in such proselytizing statements] doesn't take the definite article), or by stating it in such a way that it is clear that such a belief/statement is related specifically both to the context from which it was drawn and to the article in which it appears. --76.184.143.178 (talk) 15:14, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Agreed, but I can feel the arguments coming even now. You need to find a better way to restate your ideas: this is an article with a solely religious basis. As I say, I agree with all your points. But I've run into these battles in the past on other articles. We are not likely to win....Djathinkimacowboy^(yell) 15:55, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

It's also extremely repetitive.Costesseyboy (talk) 00:48, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

On Elohim's likelihood as Plural usage by function, not fun, and noting that it solves 2 creations inconsistency problem as well as "Nod" and the "other people" lacking origin in any possible way other than with plural Elohim.

I would point out that it is highly likely the Hebrews originally believed in polytheism. That's how religion is, going from complex to simpler. This is more the nature of "his people", as each god had his or her own people, and they had their god. THis was true with greeks and romans as well. The Hebrews did indeed believe they were the people of the Head god-that of thunder of course, YHWH. What I wanted to mention is that the plural form of Elohim is very unlikely just an accidental exception to the rules of the language-but of course was used as a qualifer for when not just YHWH but other gods were involved. Only the obvious nature of "Elohim" (Plural at times by neeed) explains the problems monotheism has with Genesis. That is: There WERE two creations. The first is by elohim (plural-all the gods created WITH YHWH), so that should be indicated as plural, and it implies YHWH was involved, but only a part, with the other gods in creating "everything" that genesis defines that as ("Universe" is a stretch). Then the 2nd creation, is different because it IS different. That one is JUST YHWH creating a special place for JUST his people to protect them from the less friendly world. This is why the sequences don't match and why he can jump straight to man (ie day 6 if it were redundant, yet is obviously not, redundancy is of the least likelihood considering how drastically different they are. But if you picture the creation of "stuff" (matter) and then of YHWH's Garden Project by those merits, chapter 2 reads very smoothly with no confusion-everything fitting into the puzzle. Pretending YHWH just appeared as the first monotheism is much harder idea to swallow. Especially when the Hebrew creation is clearly modeled after it's neighbor, Egypt. They too had a god that created through sound, and made the first man from dirt/clay, etc.... and they too like everyone else had polytheism. This is why different connotations are used for plants-those in the garden of a "garden" nature the 1st creation plants not, more wild, self sustaining. Lastly, this also explains when god banished Cain, Cain went to "Nod" and found "the other people". WHere did they come from? There are no rational answers until you pair it and the 2 creations the multiple implications of "godS" in the Torah & bible, and the obvious nature of gods=they reflect ignorance: The more we don't know, the more gods we had. The more we know, the less we need any. Not willing to do the research, but I know some has been done on the topic of the Elohim with this being the outcome that fits the best and most logical for what is known about the ancient Hebrews and the remnants of the culture today. Here's a reference that reveals just "too many" parallels between Egyptian Creation and Hebrew Creation. It should also be noted that in egyptian, the primary god tends to create themself, different than the brilliant idea of "uncreated creator", and first makes other gods-to help him create, so perhaps both START as monotheisms, but by the time man is created, it's already polytheism. Also, of interest perhaps to humanists: The Egyptian Creator (well, their gods argue over who did what-kind of hilarious, I think it was Ra) is bi-sexual, such to take on both roles and I believe gives birth to the other first gods, even though he is a "he". I would say the christian bible is well behind the egyptian stories that preceded it, at least on the issue of gender equality, and apparently innate sexual nature recognition....the Egyptian Gods were not trying to crawl in bed with people-how very cool lol.

98.127.96.62 (talk) 12:30, 20 February 2013 (UTC)Brendan Murphy98.127.96.62 (talk) 12:30, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

No W in Hebrew

The Hebrew letters are Yodh, He (letter) and Waw (letter). Editor2020 (talk) 00:18, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Adonai appears twice

"Adonai" is listed under both "The Tetragrammaton" and "Other names and titles of God". Can the content from the "Other..." section be merged into the "Tetragrammaton" section? — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 23:17, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Influence of names in daily Jewish speech

I think there should be a section explaining how the names of God in Judaism influenced the speech among Jewish people. Yah is a vocative particle in Arabic and I don't think Arabic-speaking Jewish people would utter that specific name. (Or maybe I'm wrong.) Komitsuki (talk) 15:50, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Jehovah

I deleted the section on Jehovah - this name is never used by Jews or in Jewish writings. PiCo (talk) 06:47, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

According to the Jehovah article, it's used in Karaite Judaism. StAnselm (talk) 07:04, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

I find that a bit hard to believe. The spelling with a letter J and a letter V is German, where the J represents the sound we use Y for in English and the V is pronounced as a W sound - so Jehovah pronounced the English way is a mispronunciation of the German. The German word in turn, I believe, is an attempt to fill in the vowels of YHWH (JHVH in German). Neither has any connection with Judaism, whether Karaite or other. I think, if we want to ask someone (I'm no expert), then user AnonMoos would be the one - he seems very knowledgeable. He hangs out a lot in the article YHWH. PiCo (talk) 07:15, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

"gutteral throat-clearing"

Since this note is included on the page to be "more accurate", we may as well avoid this folk-y "gutteral throat-clearing" and give the exact sound so people can look it up and hear it for themselves. I assume this is either the [glottal stop] or the [voiced pharyngeal fricative]. Can anyone confirm it? Flipping Mackerel (talk) 01:54, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Polytheists? Really?

How does one get Polytheism from the imperatives, " “I am Jehovah your God, who have brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slaves. You must not have any other gods against my face." and "“YOU must not fear other gods, and YOU must not bow down to them nor serve them nor sacrifice to them"? (Exodus 20:2,3;2 Kings 17:35) Maxximiliann (talk) 00:29, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

7 names of god

The sections on writing names of deity and the 7 names of god contain errors (8 names listed not 7), redundancies, and contradictions. These paragraphs should be merged and cleaned up.Serkul (talk) 02:33, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Dubious

Eloah doesn't "appear to be a singular feminine" (this would be Eloha), it's simply a singular of Elohim, the "a" being a detail of pronunciation before a pharyngeal or glottal consonant (cf. Arabic 3inda, which to a Westerner may sound like "aynda"). I don't have good sources ready at hand, though. 46.186.34.99 (talk) 22:10, 8 June 2014 (UTC)