Talk:Alger Hiss/Archive 13

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Archive 12

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Archive 14

The notes

The IPs version in regards to the notes is totally unacceptable. It stuffs all the relevant facts into a footnote, while deceiving the reader into the idea that this is merely Weinstein's opinion. It is a historical fact that Hiss initially denied writing the note in question and it is a historical fact that Sayre, not just Weinstein, saw it as utterly unrelated to Hiss's duties. This is noted in Weinstein's book.

CJK (talk) 23:03, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

In the grand jury testimony made public after Weinstein wrote his book, Sayre testified that Hiss briefed him every morning on the news of the day. This is a matter of public record, irrespective of what Sayre told the FBI under hostile questioning. And the "Fake Passport" ring was big news of the day, as is shown upthread here. Svetlana Cheronaya writes (yes, on her self-published website) that in the US archives she had seen an entire folder of such handwritten memos made by Hiss for the purpose of briefing Sayre on the news. So it is her word and Sayre's (and physical evidence, provided Cheronaya is correct) against Weinstein's wild guess. Furthermore, and even more important, Weinstein provides no evidence at all for his supposition that Hiss must have written the note with the intention of sharing the contents of the telegram with the Soviets. 173.77.75.221 (talk) 23:23, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

That would be true regarding general matters, but in regards to this specific note in question Sayre did not believe it was any of his or Hiss's business. The material was not merely "the news" it was an exact copy of confidential information from the wife of an American intelligence officer.

CJK (talk) 00:02, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

She was the widow of a deceased intelligence officer and had sent the telegram to Russia from Washington, D.C. where she was living at the time. She was remembering the arrested man from 10 years earlier. She proved subsequently to be an anti-Semitic nut case. It was a more or less exact copy because it was only two lines long. It was entirely insignificant & forgettable. The FBI theorized, erroneously, for a time, that the arrested man had been a double agent, as I recall. But they dropped this theory. He was not, he was a committed Communist and also a forger. 173.77.75.221 (talk) 00:38, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

You admit the information was "entirely insignificant & forgettable" so why did Hiss write it down?

In any event, Sayre indicated that he saw no reason for Hiss to bring it to his attention. This is ignored in your version. Your version stuffs everything relevant into a footnote, pretending that the issue was a dispute over passports. Even if that was true, it still had nothing to do with Hiss or Sayre.

CJK (talk) 00:47, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Duh, he wrote it down because it was in the news at the time and concerned passport fraud (the State Department), That was his job; assessing its importance was not his job. That was Sayre's job. Later, both of them forgot it. If you admit it was trivial why do you think, with Weinstein, it proves Hiss was a spy? Do you think the Latvian and was a double agents working for the US that Hiss betrayed? If so, why did the Soviets later rehabilitate him? 173.77.75.221 (talk) 01:37, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Um, no, the information he copied word-for-word was not in the news at the time.

There is no evidence that Hiss or Sayre were concerned with passport fraud, which was not the underlying issue anyway.

Why do I think it provides evidence that he was a spy? Because Sayre himself stated:

that he was always disturbed by the Robinson cable [the Mary Martin wire transcribed by Hiss] as the handwritten note on this cable [Hiss's transcription] seemed to be of a personal nature an he could not understand why he was on the distribution list for this cable or why a note would be made on it or especially why an exact copy should be made.

In any event, it isn't about your or mine opinion, it is about stating the relevant facts which you have chosen to conceal from the reader. How would like it to be phrased?

CJK (talk) 01:46, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

You are being Jesuitical CJK, the so-called Robinson affair was definitely headlines news, even if the exact words of the cable were not. What Sayre said 10 years later is neither here nor there, since he said different things to the grand jury than to the FBI, who thought they were tracking down a double agent at the time they grilled him. Surely his grand jury testimony is just as relevant as what he said to the FBI. Unless you think, as I do, that readers should be sent to the sources instead of Wikipedia reproducing every jot and tittle of this complicated story. I am sure Sayre was "disturbed" -- he knew he could also have been a suspect. He never implicated Hiss. 173.77.75.221 (talk) 02:11, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

If it was "headline news" why would Hiss have to inform Sayre about it? Surely Sayre read the newspaper. The arrests were in December 1937, were they not? The date of the cable was January 28, 1938.

Sayre did not say "different things" to the grand jury. He told the grand jury that Hiss might make notes when he [Hiss] wanted to refresh his memory later when telling Sayre something related to his job. But regarding this specific note Sayre saw no reason for Hiss to have copied anything because it did not concern him. It was not Hiss's job to make notes of everything he saw. Sayre told Hiss's attorney, not the FBI, that

"he does not recall it was Alger's duty to 'sift' cables and digest them and make oral report on [their] contents...."

CJK (talk) 02:48, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Where is your citation from CJK? Because according to Chervonnaya,:

Sayre gave, as a “possible explanation,” when faced with a daily “stack of cables,” Hiss would distill them after reading the original:

"… so that he could tell me in a few words what the memorandum contained. Not that he would show me or pass to me those specific memoranda, but possibly that he would digest it for his own purposes, so that in handing me a stack of telegrams he might just glance at his little digest and say, “Well, this telegram is about so-and-so; I don’t think you have to read that,” “This telegram is about so-and-so; perhaps you better get after that,” and so on and so forth."

When asked if he would be interested in matters not directly involved with the economic and trade matters that his office was handling, Sayre explained that he “had to be interested in everything that pertained to developments going along, …” 7 However puzzling the “Mary Martin” note may have seemed in late 1948, in early 1938 the circumstances behind it were at the center of a diplomatic crisis threatening serious deterioration of Soviet-American relations. Given the fact that the 1937 Soviet-American Trade Agreement was due to be renewed in August 1938, the development of this crisis would have been of immediate concern to Francis Sayre’s office. http://www.documentstalk.com/wp/the-%E2%80%9Cmary-martin%E2%80%9D-note-in-alger-hiss%E2%80%99s-handwriting

So you see, Sayre himself referred to the handwritten note as a "memorandum". As for why the State Department was interested in late January, when the arrests were in December, according to Chervonnaya, the State Department had been trying for a month to get Soviet permission to interview the American-born wife in jail, since she was a US citizen. They were given permission in early February. Chervonnaya claims that Weinstein made a complete botch of the story. Other authors say it was not the only thing he botched. His footnotes are a complete mess. 173.77.75.221 (talk) 03:58, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

My source is Perjury P. 248.

Again, Hiss might have made notes for himself regarding things of interest to Sayre, but regarding this specific cable Sayre had no interest, and there was no reason for an exact copy if he had any.

Beyond the general news of the arrests and fallout, which Sayre could have simply followed in the newspaper, the specific details of the incident, particularly the information in the cable, had nothing to do with Sayre's office even if it might have concerned others in the State Department. Sayre himself admitted this. So why are you trying to hide it?

CJK (talk) 15:31, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

I looked at Perjury, too. It is Weinstein's summary (therefore his opinion). He does not reproduce the FBI interrogation transcript. Just a lot of summaries by an FBI agent and "see transcript", then Ibids. As far as the telegram "not being a summary". The passport telegram was two (puzzling) lines and plausibly easier to copy than to summarize. Incidentally, Weinstein uses the word "memo" repeatedly, I don't know why CJK balks at that word. Then, as proof that the note, was sent to Russia, Weinstein amazingly quotes at length Chamber's article "The Faking of Americans", which said it wound up in Soviet hands -- even though Chambers also said he had broken with the Party by then and kept it! Also, Weinstein fails to mention that Chambers' "article" remained in manuscript and was never published anywhere. It he had published it, Chambers would have been exposing classified material! Weinstein also goes on and on about how sensational the passport case - was at the time. Incidentally, Chamber's friend Solow concluded his article, which was published, the dark suggestion that the files of the State Department were filled with of all kinds of information about espionage that was being kept from the public (as I recall). Mballen (talk) 05:27, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

reversion

Capitalismojo has reverted my reversion of CJK's reversion of the paragraph about Weinstein on the ground that it is being discussed on RS page. But what is being discussed is another paragraph, and that is not really being discussed, but rather is being stonewalled by CJK, who refuses to provide references. I believe he is a serial disruptive editor.173.77.75.221 (talk) 02:37, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

I believe Capitalismojo should give another more valid reason for reverting the paragraph. 173.77.75.221 (talk) 02:40, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Capitalismojo gave a misleading reason for reverting the passage. Please give a valid reason. 173.77.75.221 (talk) 06:25, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

@Capitalismojo:, 173.77 seems to have explained his edit, now it is your turn. OccultZone (Talk) 06:31, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Here is the deal. We don't talk about the motivations of other editors. Calling someone a "serial disruptive editor" does nothing to improve an article or collegiality. Then attacking yet another editor for giving a "misleading reason" really is inappropriate. If you have a problem with CJK, talk it over on his talk page. If that doesn't work, there is a panoply of ways to mediate disagreements. (As an aside, I'd also strongly recommend getting a username.) Capitalismojo (talk) 14:14, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

On to the edit I reverted. I don't think this edit is an improvement. I'd like a thoughtful reason from the anon IP to include this in an already larded up article. I believe this article needs aggresive pruning for clarity, hence adding yet more is not helpful. The ordinary reader would get seriously lost in the weeds on this article. Capitalismojo (talk) 14:14, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

@Capitalismojo: Sometimes we just forget that there is no deadline. Don't take it too seriously. OccultZone (Talk) 14:40, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

I don't think CJK's edits are improvements and therefore I reverted what, by consensus, had stood for over a year. I agree that the article needs pruning. It is seriously overweighted with references to Haynes and Klehr, for one thing. It is important to make clear that Weinstein's book was written before the Grand Jury testimony was released, and, despite having been updated is out of date. For Weinstein the Robinson telegram was proof that Hiss was a spy but this hypothesis caused by a confusion of dates. What is really needed is a separate wikipedia article on the affair itself. 173.77.75.221 (talk) 16:13, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Your statement the grand jury testimony would have altered what Weinstein wrote is, at minimum, flagrant original research on your part. I have already pointed out that the two statements are fully compatible.

CJK (talk) 16:32, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

I made no such statement. I merely said his book is out of date. Readers should be allowed to see Sayre's other statement and decide for themselves. Anyway it was not my statement. Take it up with Svetlana Chervonnaya. 173.77.75.221 (talk) 16:40, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

His "other statements" are not contradictory. As has been explained, he said that Hiss might make notes for himself to convey Sayre certain relevant information. Regarding the Martin cable specifically he said there was no reason for it to have been copied. That is what we are discussing, the Martin cable Hiss initially denied writing, not Hiss's note taking in general.

CJK (talk) 16:56, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

To whom did he say there was no reason for it to be copied? To the Grand Jury or the to FBI? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.77.75.221 (talk) 18:22, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps we could take it from the top, and clarify so that other editors can comment in a productive way. What is being argued here please? What changes to the article are proposed, and what exactly are the points of contention? Thank you gentlemen. Joegoodfriend (talk) 18:30, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

I don't understand why it matters who he told. Do we have any complete transcripts of the Grand Jury testimony?

My version says:

Chambers retaliated by claiming Hiss was not merely a Communist but also a spy, a charge he had not made earlier; and, on November 17, 1948, he produced to support his explosive allegations physical evidence consisting of sixty-five pages of re-typed State Department documents plus four handwritten notes in Hiss's own handwriting summarizing the contents of State Department cables. These became known as the "Baltimore documents." Chambers claimed Hiss had given them to him in 1938 and that Priscilla had retyped them (Hiss could not type) on the Hisses' Woodstock typewriter to pass along to the Soviets. One of the handwritten notes copied the contents of a telegram related to the arrest of an American and her Soviet husband in Moscow, it was unrelated to Hiss's duties at the State Department which concerned trade matters. Hiss initially denied writing it but expert analysis would later confirm it was in his handwriting.

The IP's version says:

Chambers retaliated by claiming Hiss was not merely a Communist but also a spy, a charge he had not made earlier; and, on November 17, 1948, he produced to support his explosive allegations physical evidence consisting of sixty-five pages of re-typed State Department documents plus four handwritten notes in Hiss's own handwriting summarizing the contents of State Department cables. These became known as the "Baltimore documents." Chambers claimed Hiss had given them to him in 1938 and that Priscilla Hiss had retyped the State Department documents (Hiss could not type) on the Hisses' Woodstock typewriter to pass along to the Soviets. As for the the handwritten notes, one of them concerned a telegram addressed to the U.S. State Department Chargé d'Affairs in Moscow. It was from the widow of a former US diplomat to Riga and concerned the widely reported case of an American woman and her Latvian-born husband who had been arrested in December 1937 while traveling to the Soviet Union under false passports, a crime in both the US and the Soviet Union.

And he stuffs the following "information" into the footnote:

According to Allen Weinstein, Hiss initially denied writing the note, but expert analysis later confirmed it was in his handwriting. Weinstein argues that the matter of the fake passports was unrelated to Hiss's duties at the State Department, which were limited to international trade (although passports manifestly fall under the purview of the State Department). Weinstein speculates that Hiss must have informed the Soviets about the telegram and this proved Hiss had been a spy.

CJK (talk) 18:40, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Originally someone else had inserted the reference to the Robinson telegram, stating erroneously that it came from Lithuania, that was why the reference was in there. It was originally a correction. The sender was not from Lithuania, the telegram originated in Washington, whence it was sent to Moscow. If looks weird to have the contents of only one of the telegrams mentioned, because then you would have to explain why the others were or were not significant. I would be OK with not mentioning the Mary Robinson affair at all or just linking it to a separate article. If you are going to mention it. Then you have to explain it., including the varying opinions about it.

And, the more I think about it the more I think an improvement might be to have a separate article for the Robinson affair to which readers can be referred. I would say simply the four telegrams "appeared to FBI agents as unrelated to Hiss's duties", rather than flatly denying that it was related to his duties, since opinions differ on that point. (Chervonnaya thinks it was related.) There is no need to get into Sayre's testimony. It would be better to have a separate article on the trial.

Hiss's bio, should just say that a preponderance of mainstream historians think he did spy for the Soviets, a few suggest he may have been a spy but received a trumped up, kangaroo trial; and still others think he may have been innocent. Then give representative examples minus derogatory labeling of any of them as "fringe" (especially his son!!!) along with links and suggestions for further reading. 173.77.75.221 (talk) 19:27, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

I think CJK's edit is concise and to the point. "support his explosive allegations physical evidence consisting of" - just want to point out there's a typo here. Thanks. Joegoodfriend (talk) 19:32, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

I see no reason for another article to be made, that would resemble a POV fork.

The issue is that this particular note is different from the other three. Firstly, unlike the other three, Hiss denied writing it until it was confirmed to be in his handwriting. This is a historical fact and not something made up by Weinstein, as you insinuate. Secondly, Sayre (not Weinstein or the FBI) stated that he saw no reason for Hiss to have copied its contents (an issue which also did not apply to the other three).

Maybe an acceptable formulation would be One of the handwritten notes copied the contents of a telegram related to the arrest of an American and her Soviet husband in Moscow. Sayre, whom Hiss was assisting at the time, believed that the copied information was unrelated to his or Hiss's duties at the State Department which concerned trade matters. Hiss initially denied writing it but expert analysis would later confirm it was in his handwriting.

CJK (talk) 20:16, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

No go. You have to say "Under interrogation, Sayre told the FBI ... [citation and date of testimony] Weinstein believed this constituted proof of espionage [citation date (1978?)]." But Sayre in testimony that was only made public in 1998, also told the Grand Jury, ... [citation and date of testimony]. [No interpretation, leave that to the reader.]

The Fake Passport Scandal was a historical occurrence. It was in the news and had repercussions in the Hiss trial. Chambers wrote an article about it that he didn't publish and that revealed the contents of the Passport telegram (which would have been disclosing a state secret, had it been published). Weinstein's book gives the erroneous impression that Chambers did publish it. In any case, the whole affair is is too long and involved to fit in Hiss's wiki bio. 173.77.75.221 (talk) 21:20, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

This isn't about Weinstein's views. I am merely using him as the source for the fact that Hiss denied writing the note and Sayre saw it as unrelated to Hiss's duties.

I simply do not see how his testimony to the Grand Jury contradicts that specific point, and in any case you would need to provide a complete transcript for anyone to arrive at that judgment. The only portions I've seen are excerpts posted on Tony Hiss's propaganda website.

I am not trying to discuss Chambers's activities, which would only add more unnecessary wordiness to the article, which is already quite long.

CJK (talk) 21:34, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

You do not see it. Others do. The testimony is a matter of public record and I don't have to supply it. If you are interested, I am sure you can find it and read it and publish a paper on it. All that has to be done is to say that another scholar quotes a passage from the grand jury testimony and and maintains that it does contradict what Sayre said to his FBI interrogators. Wikipedia doesn't have to endorse what the scholar said, it is only required to report it that there is disagreement at this time. Readers can use their own judgement, just as you have used yours. Soon other, more up-to-date books will come out and perhaps you will find support for your views in them. 173.77.75.221 (talk) 22:02, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

If you don't have a complete transcript, then how do you know your version is correct?

Based on the incomplete record you provided, his Grand Jury statement appears to only cover the three notes where Hiss made summaries. The Martin telegram on the other hand was an exact copy. I believe that neither Weinstein or Chervonnaya's opinion is relevant here, only Sayre's.

CJK (talk) 22:22, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Another scholar maintains that it is correct -- if you want to produce evidence from another RS calling the except incorrect or taken out of context, great. In the meantime at least one other author maintains that not only Sayre but also Stanley K. Hornbeck, for whom Hiss subsequently worked, confirmed that it was Hiss's practice to make little handwritten memos, which would be either attached to documents when they were filed, or thrown out. 173.77.75.221 (talk) 22:34, 17 February 2014 (UTC) 173.77.75.221 (talk) 22:38, 17 February 2014 (UTC) (typos)

The only thing I'm trying to insert is the fact that Sayre said the copying of the Martin note specifically was unrelated to Hiss's duties. The scholarly debate over this is beside the point.

CJK (talk) 22:45, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

CJK's version says of the passport scandal telegram note: "it was unrelated to Hiss's duties at". Then he says "it is a historical fact that Sayre, not just Weinstein, saw it as utterly unrelated to Hiss's duties" (my emphasis). So Sayre testified under FBI interrogation that the telegram was utterly unrelated? Utterly? Isn't this not a fact but just an inference by (or opinion of) Weinstein? Again, CJK maintains just above that Sayre said there was "no reason" for Hiss to have copied the telegram. Did Sayre say "it was unrelated to HIss's duties"? Or did he say "there was no reason for Hiss to have copied it". Or did he say it was utterly unrelated? Just what did he say? The reason that this is interesting is that a photocopy of a fragment of the actual Grand Jury transcript appears online for everyone to see in which Sayre, with memorable eloquence, affirms that Hiss customarily briefed him every day both on things related to trade and also on things that may have been unrelated to trade but were nevertheless important to know. 173.77.75.221 (talk) 02:01, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

The information is as follows:

According to Sayre, he did not remember discussing military information with Hiss, had little interest in such matters, and did not understand why copies of departmental cables on the Robinson-Rubens case--in which he had no interest whatsoever--had been sent to his office. On the last point Sayre told the FBI "that he was always disturbed by the Robinson cable [the Mary Martin wire transcribed by Hiss] as the handwritten note on this cable [Hiss's transcription] seemed to be of a personal nature an he could not understand why he was on the distribution list for this cable or why a note would be made on it or especially why an exact copy should be made." (Perjury p. 248)

You claim that the Grand Jury transcripts show that as a general matter Hiss might make summaries for himself (not Sayre) to convey information to Sayre. The point I am trying to make is that regarding this note specifically Sayre said he had absolutely no interest, and did not understand why it was copied.

CJK (talk) 16:08, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

As I read it, the FBI summary quoted by Weinstein says that Sayre maintained, "he had no interest whatever" in the Robinson-Rubens [fake Passport] case and the telegram [which used a several first names] seemed of a personal nature and he did not understand why it had been sent to his office. (He is also reported as saying he had no idea what it was all about, no?) These are the words of an FBI agent, not of Sayre. I know, other historians were upset with Weinstein for refusing to make his sources available for independent inspection -- I don't know if this was one of the instances. Because of this they protested en masse when George Bush named him U.S Archivist. Who knows, perhaps the documentary evidence against Hiss was even more damning, but as it stands, this is Weinstein's interpretation of an FBI summary. This is fine, but it has to be identified as that, not as "historical fact." Unless there is a transcript in the appendix, or something. 173.77.75.221 (talk) 19:01, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Correction, the phrase "no interest whatever" (my emphasis) is Weinstein's and is not identified as direct quotation from the FBI agent. 173.77.75.221 (talk) 21:50, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

I don't understand what is so hard about this. Sayre told the FBI that a) the Martin cable was of no concern to him (it was of a "personal nature") and b) he could not understand why an "exact copy" of it was made. What part of those facts are disputed by you?

CJK (talk) 22:05, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Dictionary definitions

tran·scribe [tran-skrahyb]

verb (used with object)

1.

to make a written copy, especially a typewritten copy, of (dictated material, notes taken during a lecture, or other spoken material).

2.

to make an exact copy of (a document, text, etc.).

memo see mem·o·ran·dum [mem-uh-ran-duhm] noun, plural mem·o·ran·dums, mem·o·ran·da [mem-uh-ran-duh]

1.

a short note designating something to be remembered, especially something to be done or acted upon in the future; reminder.

2.

a record or written statement of something.

3.

an informal message, especially one sent between two or more employees of the same company, concerning company business: an interoffice memorandum.

4.

Law. a writing, usually informal, containing the terms of a transaction.173.77.75.221 (talk) 16:50, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Schrecker, Weinstein, and The Haunted Wood

I have just reverted a good-faith edit by IP 173.77.75.221 that said Schrecker did not mention The Haunted Wood in her article "The Spies Who Loved Us?" in The Nation, 24 May 2014. The article, was, in fact, a review of The Haunted Wood. That is not readily discernible by the facsimile article, but it is in the archived article, which, unfortunately, is behind a paywall. It was on p. 28-31. Here's the beginning of it:

The Spies Who Loved Us?

ELLEN SCHRECKER

THE HAUNTED WOOD: Soviet Espionage in America--The Stalin Era

By Allen Weinstein and Alexander Vassiliev. Random House, 402 pp. $30.

I still kick myself for not having saved the short story I wrote for composition class in seventh grade in which I described how the Russians took over my small suburban community. The story ended with a knock on the door and the secret police dragging my father out of the house, chanting, ‘‘NKVD, NKVD . . ."

Yopienso (talk) 00:49, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

the secret police dragging my father out of the house, chanting, ‘‘NKVD, NKVD . . ." You mean "FBI, FBI…" right? Do you know the meaning of "two mature agents?" How about: "Do not interview suspect in presence of his lawyer"? Or… would you like to see how FBI minions squirm when they're referred to a "national police?" Which they obviously were. DEddy (talk) 21:03, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't realize you are a newbie. I've answered your question about edit histories on my talk page. I suggest you delete your comment just above and mine here, since your comment doesn't make any sense. I was copying and pasting from Schrecker, which you really should have noticed: you shouldn't weigh in with opinions if you haven't informed yourself on the issue. Don't worry; you'll catch on! Yopienso (talk) 21:31, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

I was copying and pasting from Schrecker, which you really should have noticed: I'm supposed to know where you've cut & pasted from? It's signed by you. I assumed it was your comment. Excuse my Wiki ignorance. DEddy (talk) 02:58, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

I don't doubt your information that it was a review. She does mention Weinstein and Vassiliev. Curious that she does not mention or engage with the book at all in her review, only the circumstances of its composition. 173.77.75.221 (talk) 05:10, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the collegial response. Typically, academic book reviews are written like this one, with the book title and info only in the heading. Whoever reproduced the article must not have realized that, because omitting the heading made the review fairly incomprehensible. Because I'm familiar with the title and the three authors, I surmised the article was a review and looked it up through a university library. But now it occurs to me you could find it in World Cat, and here it is! If you click on the title, you should find more information and nearby libraries that hold it. Yopienso (talk) 05:57, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Double check this but it looks like Schrecker's book was published in 1999 & "Haunted Wood" in 2000. DEddy (talk) 06:44, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

You may have seen a paperback or other later edition copyrighted 2000; the initial copyright is 1999. (And it's likely Schrecker read it pre-publication.) You can see the copyright on this Google books snippet. At the bottom of this Kirkus review page, the publication date is given as Jan. 1, 1999, and the date of Kirkus's review as Nov. 1, 1998. Schrecker's review in The Nation was May 24, 1999.

I'm fine with a question, DEddy, but we don't generally delete others' comments from a talk page. Yopienso (talk) 08:17, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

If it appears I deleted something, it was entirely accidental. What appears to have been deleted? DEddy (talk) 15:03, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

(And it's likely Schrecker read it pre-publication.) Based on what information? Speculating on who read what when in the book/article publishing process strikes me as low order SWAG. DEddy (talk) 15:03, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Check the history. I'll gladly accept your apology should you tender one.

Yes, pure speculation. Somehow I can see Dr. Schrecker receiving an advance copy to review easier than I can see her browsing the neighborhood Barnes & Noble, spying an interesting-looking book, and then offering to review it. Notice that the Kirkus review was published before the book was. But I'm only explaining my speculation, not arguing that I'm right. Cheers! Yopienso (talk) 18:42, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

DEddy, it is true that review copies are typically sent out in advance. Also the column appears under the rubric "Books". And the date of the copyright of Weinstein, et al is indeed 1999. So .... I added a second review from Schrecker, this time of Haynes, and co. which essentially (and more forcefully) makes similar points. 173.77.75.221 (talk) 18:51, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Request for Comment

Should the final lines of the lede, with due citations, be:

In 2001, a report in the New York Times identified a "growing consensus that Hiss, indeed, had most likely been a Soviet agent". However, since many relevant files continue to be unavailable, the Hiss controversy will continue to be debated. Yopienso (talk) 04:36, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes, as proposing editor. There is no need to name the writers--who are insignificant to the topic--in the lede; their thoughts are the important things. They are duly credited in the refs. Including too much detail is distracting, redundant, and contrary to policy. "Editors should avoid lengthy paragraphs and over-specific descriptions, since greater detail is saved for the body of the article." Yopienso (talk) 04:44, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose Since opinions expressed under bylines do not necessarily represent the opinions of the newspaper, they should be attributed to the reporter who wrote them. The question then arises why this reporter's opinions are significant. But I think RfC is the wrong place for your question. Since is about "In-text attribution", you should bring it up at a notice board. TFD (talk) 05:24, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

I appreciate your comment. The one time I went to a notice board--quite recently--I was instructed to create a RfC instead. Sorry, but this is my best effort at finding consensus. Yopienso (talk) 05:50, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose In 2001, James Barron of the NYT offered an editorial comment, without any supporting data, suggesting this "consensus". If this is to be referenced in the lede, it should not be referred to as "a report in the New York Times" like it's the product of investigative journalism or something. Furthermore, it would be best if Barron's comment were not mentioned at all. This biographical article it not improved by speculation from various sources as to what "most" historians believe. This text was added to the lede as a compromise following months of bitter debate. The editors should not have to keep re-arguing this from scratch every few months. Respect the outcome of the many, many previous discussions on the subject. Joegoodfriend (talk) 05:35, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

I don't think it's a particularly good source, myself, in this context. (It's a fine xource for Tony Hiss's website.) Would you support replacing it with a quote from Greenberg? (He's quoted by Barron wrt to Hiss's guilt.) Schrecker? Oshinsky? Kutler? Weinstein? All of them are respected historians who are not "speculating" but who know the state of their field. Yopienso (talk) 06:14, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

I open to discussing any other source and text you want to suggest. I don't even know who changed the old "various sources suggest" compromise text to Barron specifically. Joegoodfriend (talk) 18:42, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose I oppose it as well. For the very good reasons mentioned by Joegoodfriend. 173.52.252.213 (talk) 06:27, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

I'm satisfied that there is a clear understanding among involved editors and am closing this RfC. Thank you for your participation. Yopienso (talk) 17:18, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.