Talk:Football (word)

Etymology

Caspian wrote this:

"Football" (or "foot-ball") originally referred to a wide variety of games played in medieval Europe, which were played on foot — that is, by peasants — as opposed to the games played by horse-riding aristocrats. The name was used initially for any game played on foot, not just those that involved kicking a ball.

Sounds very interresting (and would also merit a mention in the football article), but rather unlikely. How many such horse-riding games were there? There must have been enough to merit such a separate name. I can only think of polo (well, maybe hunting). But the odd ting is that, football as we know it didn't exist in the middle ages. Why isn't, say, cricket called football then? Or is it that the forms of 'football' as we know them evolved from those varied version of peasant's games and cricket was invented (not evolved) much later? DirkvdM 09:32, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

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Hi Dirk. There is nothing new about this etymology of "foot ball", there are many references to it on the web, e.g. this one from a US soccer referees' email list:

"Paul Gardner wrote in The Simplest Game

Soccer people like to claim that the word football should really be applied only to soccer. What else whould you call a game played with the feet and with a ball? Logical enough, but the argument is flawed. The word football came into use in England in the mid-fourteenth century to describe a game played not with the feet but on foot, in order to distinguish it from pastimes that were played on the horseback.'"[1]

Cricket is slightly more recent (probably medieval) than the football games, I think, especially if we bear in mind the alleged similiarities of some ancient Greek and Roman games to rugby, for instance. I'm not sure about the horseback games, although polo is actually very new unless you are from Pakistan, which is probably the only country where it was played until about 150 years ago. Grant65 (Talk) 12:42, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

But other European mounted sports such as jousting were around for a long time, so emphasising a sport on foot in not necessarily out of place. However as games like tennis were also played on foot... --Philip Baird Shearer 10:06, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

This is interesting as well, from The Every-Day Book (1825-26) by William Hone:

FOOT-BALL.

This was, and remains, a game on Shrove Tuesday, in various parts of England.

Sir Frederick Morton Eden in the "Statistical account of Scotland," says that at the parish of Scone, county of Perth, every year on Shrove Tuesday the bachelors and married men drew themselves up at the cross of Scone, on opposite sides; a ball was then thrown up, and they played from two o'clock till sun-set. The game was this: he who at any time got the ball into his hands, run with it till overtaken by one of the opposite part; and then, if he could shake himself loose from those on the opposite side who seized him, he run on; if not, he threw the ball from him, unless it was wrested from him by the other party, but no person was allowed to kick it. The object of the married men was to hang it, that is, to put it three times into a small hole in the moor, which was the dool or limit on the one hand: that of the bachelors was to drown it, or dip it three times in a deep place in the river, the limit on the other: the party who could effect either of these objects won the game; if neither won, the ball was cut into equal parts at sun-set.[2]

(Emphasis added.) Grant65 (Talk) 14:32, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

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This explanation is supported by the fact that the word football has always implied a variety of wide games played on foot, not just those that involved kicking a ball. In fact, in some cases, the word has been applied to games which involved carrying a ball and specifically banned kicking.

If the theory that is is a game played on foot with a ball what about tennis, golf, hockey and cricket, which are all derived from older games involving hitting something with a stick. Hurling is defiantly a very old game played on foot. Why are they not called football? I have nothing against the idea that football means playing a game on foot, but the emphasis placed on this theory in this section seems to me like original research of the type one often finds in Wikipedia. I think this section should follow the OED for the Etymology, or it discredits Wikipedia. "First catch you hare", does anyone have access to the OED? --Philip Baird Shearer 10:06, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Two points: 1. The "on foot" theory is one that I've heard many times over the years and it can be found in anecdotal form in many places on the web. I don't see how it can be regarded as original research! 2. To argue that other games would also justify the name "football" is a straw man; the fact is, many older varieties of football which did not revolve around kicking a ball (or even banned kicking) have long been called football, such as the Scone game referenced above. How else would one explain the naming of such games? Grant65 | Talk 17:54, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Why are they straw men? Just because there was the odd game which was called football, where no foot struck the ball does not mean that the modern game of football is derived from them. AFAICT all modern version of football allow the foot to make contact with the ball without it being an automatic foul as it is in hockey. Much better that this article uses the OED as a reference on the etymology of the word, that is after all what the OED does best and does far better than Wikipedia. --Philip Baird Shearer 18:10, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

The modern codes weren't around when the word emerged, so they are irrelevant to this issue. I'll ask the question again: how do you explain the naming of medieval/folk/traditional games called "football" which banned kicking? Other than than by reference to the fact that they were played "on foot"? Grant65 | Talk 19:12, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't have to, as I said I think this etymology should be based on the OED. --Philip Baird Shearer 21:02, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

No, you don't have to, but the logic is inescapable. Grant65 | Talk 23:10, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I am glad that you see my pov on the OED ;-) --Philip Baird Shearer 23:40, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I can always see your POV, Philip, even when I don't agree with it :-) The OED is the best dictionary there is, but it is not an encyclopedia and it is not the final word on etymology. Grant65 | Talk 12:53, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Australia

I can't see the attempts to use the word football to mean soccer catching on in Oz. There was an article on Fox about the opening round of the A-League, specifically the game at Lang Park, where the 20,000 odd crowd was descibed as "the largest ever attendance for a domestic football match in Australia". Even in context that causes a double-take, without context it's just nonsense. --Paul 12:06, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Soccer AM

If UK football fans hate the word soccer, what about Soccer AM on Sky Sports? I would expect info on that article about how controversial or deliberately ironic the name was, reflective of the Americanized format of the show, the dumbing down of tv, etc. Somebody fix one or other please! Joestynes 13:12, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

• The name Soccer AM is indicative of Sky's parent company (News Corp) more than usage of the word in the UK, to say the word soccer is frowned apon in the UK is an understatement in all fairness. Beside, Football AM doesn't sound quite right, maybe that's the reason for the choice of name? The show isn't Americanised at all, quite the opposite. I'm sure you'd have to hear from the producers of the show to find out the reasons for it's naming scheme. streaky 21:40, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't buy the idea that Football AM doesn't "sound right" or that it has anything to do with News Corp. I think it's just an example of branding/marketing. I lived in London in 1991-92 and I even heard BBC announcers say "soccer" occasionally. I still have many English friends and I can safely say that soccer is universally understood as a synonym for "football" in the UK and is not "frowned upon". Grant65 | Talk 03:41, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

It's frowned apon by "true fans", London doesn't have many of those ;) - yes soccer is understood to mean football, but real football fans don't call football soccer, it's usually a derogatory term used by people that hate the game and our continental 'friends' streaky 06:37, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

The article is correct. Soccer is a term that is generally disliked in the UK though is used by, for example, rugby league fans.GordyB 03:05, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Soccer is used from time to time in Britain, but the main difference between its use in Britain and Australia or America is that in Britain it is firmly considered a slang term, much like calling the game footie or like calling the rugby code rugger. Also its use was very much more prevalent among the middle classes and the south of the country and almost unheard of in working class areas or in the North of England or Scotland. Jooler 01:07, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Not quite true. Working class Northerners often follow rugby league and hence do use the term 'soccer'.GordyB

Gordy- rugby is virtually alien to the north. We only have the one team of note (well...maybe Leeds could count too) which only became prominent in the area after the Hall take over. We call football football and rugby rugby. --Josquius 15:48, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Who is we? Do you not make a distinction between rugby union and rugby league? What about this link BBC League Results which lists lots of Rugy League teams north of the Trent, (and north of the Tweed they play Union See Category:Scottish rugby union teams)! --Philip Baird Shearer 16:40, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

For usage of soccer in Britain...It generally depends where it comes from. I'll agree that amongst the working classes it is a bad term seen as a horrible American influence (which it usually is) and generally disliked. Amongst the middle and upper classes though it has the old public school connections like rugger so is somewhat acceptable.--Josquius 15:48, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Conclusion

Is funny to see that as a result of this article we can learn that because north america, a region without any FIFA history having won nothing we have all the wikipedia spread with the word soccer instead of football when they simply could get another name for their american (or whatever) football

Ah, no. The word soccer has British upper class origins, not US origins. It is also the common or "street" name of the game in Canada (including French Canadians), Australia and New Zealand. The word soccer is also often used in Ireland, the rugby strongholds of Southern Africa, the Pacific Islands and in English language material from the governments and news agencies of non-English speaking countries. If it were not for the large numbers of English speakers in India and the rest of South Asia, then soccer would be the more common name.

And by the way the US soccer team is ranked number 5 in the world, according to the FIFA World Rankings. Grant65 | Talk 02:52, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

just a comment, but most of the points earned by the US to get 5th were against CONCACAF teams, so you can make your own conclusion.

I recognize Im not an american football fan and I dont watch their games but please tell me if Im wrong if is not a game that is played most of the time with the hands, and if it is like that, why my sentence was removed ?. Thks --Jor70 17:31, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

English Speakers

How are we defining English Speakers in this article? English Language gives Americans+Canadians as seven out of every ten anglophones - suggesting that while most english speaking countries use football to mean soccer, most english speakers use football to mean North American football ... WilyD 17:22, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to the British Empire, there is an impressive spread of native English speakers in every continent, and they generally favour "British" usage. Note the phrase "of the 45 national FIFA affiliates in which English is an official or primary language..." For example, according to the Indian English article, at least 8-15% — some 88-165 million people — of the population of India speaks English. In addition, many more Indians use English as a common language, when dealing with people who speak a different local language. The Times of India "sells 2.6 million copies daily, and has an average issue readership in excess of 7 million, which makes it by far the world's largest English Broadsheet Newspaper." Grant65 | Talk 10:03, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, this conflicts with the English Language page, which has American English as the most commonly spoken variety of English, and Canadian English as the third most commonly spoken dialect among native speakers. While many in the Commonwealth speak English variants that are closer to British English than they are to American English, there are an impressive number of non-native speakers of English in non-Commonwealth countries as well, which may favour American English - for example, Japanese people tend to speak a very American form of English. In any event, I don't doubt that it's possible the majority of English speakers favour Football over Soccer, but it certainly not obvious, which is why I've requested a citation. WilyD 13:00, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't conflict with the English Language page; while American English may be the most widely spoken variety, it isn't spoken by an absolute majority of English speakers. Grant65 | Talk 00:53, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, your comment specifically used the term native speaker - I didn't necessarily mean the article page. I apologise if I was unclear. Anyways, whilst Indians may (or may not, I have no idea) use Football for Soccer, I have no idea about the vast number of English speakers in non Commonwealth/Ex-Commonwealth countries like Japan and China, and stand by my call for a citation. WilyD 02:09, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. I appreciate what you are saying and a citatation should be given. It may not be far away, see e.g. List of countries by English speaking population.

By the way, even in the Philippines, which was a US "colony" in 1898-41, and where there are 43 million speakers of Philippine English, the word "football" is used for soccer. See Philippines national football team and Philippines Football Federation. Grant65 | Talk 10:20, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

In most English-speaking countries the word "football" usually refers to Association football, also known as soccer. Of the 45 national FIFA affiliates in which English is an official or primary language, only three — Canada, Samoa and the United States — use "soccer" in their governing bodies name.

This paragraph is so plainly twisted in Association football's favour. Take India, for example, English is one of India's many official languages but I'm not about to swallow the notion that India is an English-speaking country no matter how many copies of the Times of India they might sell. There may be a great number of English speakers in India but are we counting English speakers or English-speaking nations? (This is another way of twisting your stats.) Now take Australia, for another example, the governing body for Australian soccer uses "football" rather than "soccer" (this was recently changed) but how about the general population? The word "football" is rarely used to refer to soccer in Australian English, the word usually refers to either rugby or Aussie rules (depending on the state/territory). This is much the same as the case in Japan: whilst the governing body is the Japan Football Association the sport is called "サッカー" ("sakkaa") in Japanese. Finally why are we only counting national FIFA affiliates? I propose that the paragraph simply be removed. Jimp 16:38, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Jim, I know a bit about India, and believe me, to to all intents and purposes, India is an English-speaking nation, especially since none of the 1,652 indigenous dialects is dominant — Hindi comes closest with 495 million speakers (native and second language), ~45% of the population. Language is a controversial and politicised subject in India, but English (~90 million native and second) is probably the second most-commonly-spoken language, ahead of Telugu and Bengali. Furthermore, Hindi speakers are concentrated in the north-west whereas English is widely used to communicate between members of mutually unintelligible languages, and is obviously more important in international trade, such as the call centres which harrass me on a regular basis. :-) English will likely continue to increase in importance in India. Grant65 | Talk 13:28, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

United Kingdom non-NPOV

I dissagree with GordyB's statment in #Soccer AM that "Soccer is a term that is generally disliked in the UK". I have used the word soccer and football all my life and I have not had one person correct me for using either word in the UK. Both are understood and used in context. The idea that one little known punk band which had a minor hit with a song is representative of the attitude in the UK in general is not encyclopaedic. Even if every person who regularly attended soccer matches every weekend in the UK was to object to the term soccer, (which I would seriously doubt) that would still be a minority of the UK population. --Philip Baird Shearer 11:33, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

To expand what I was saying above with examples taken from the British Media. If the word soccer was so offensive and so American why are articles like these written by the UK press (one from each Broadsheet and the BBC):

• British soccer 'may quell rebellion' Daily Telegraph 17/08/2005
• Business expects surge in soccer sickies Financial Times May 15 2006
• Soccer stars support guerrillas Gardian October 19, 2004
• US soccer teams turn to religion to boost crowds Independent 04 June 2006
• Scotland: Former BoS director in row over loan for soccer shares Time October 17, 2004
• Net poses dangers for soccer fans BBC 14 June 2006

and the Red tops

• SPORT NEWS Hargreaves gets prime ministerial backing Daily Express 19/06/06. Not in the title but inclues "Blair told soccer fans on BBC Radio 5 Live"
• British soccer fans arrested in Dutch town Daily Mail 16th October 2003
• BLOW FOR JAILED SOCCER FAN AS HE'S REFUSED BAIL Mirror 4 August 2005
• Spain fight back to claim place in last 16 Daily Star 19/06/06 "Spain's players celebrate Fernando Torres' goal against Tunisia during Group H World Cup 2006 soccer match in Stuttgart".
• Stop spitting soccer stars The Sun date??
  • Armada & no World Cup The Sun date ???. This article does not use soccer in the title but starts with "DECENT soccer fans fired a broadside at the sick senors of Spain last night over disgraceful racist taunts aimed at black England players." and uses it throughout the article

The Star and the Express both used Reuters reports which use the term soccer and neither paper thought to replace the word soccer with football, which suggests that for most the word soccor and football can be used interchangably without causing any offense.

There are also many commersial sites involved with Association Football who use the term soccer:

• http://www.thesoccersite.co.uk/
• http://www.dragonsoccer.co.uk/home.php
• http://www.soccer-books.co.uk/

Which again suggests that they do not think that they are alienating their potential customers by using the term. --Philip Baird Shearer 12:49, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I propose to replace the current text with something like this:

Like other countries, in the UK an unqualified mention of football tends to refer to the most popular footballing sport in the country, that in the case of the UK is association football. However the term soccer is used by some and understood by all. For fans who are more interested in other codes of football, within their sporting community, the use the term football may refer to their own code and they may call association football soccer for brevity and clarity. However even within such sporting communities an unqualified mention of football would be a reference to association football.

There may be a need to explain how the word football is used in different areas of the UK. For example usage in South Wales (where rugby union dominates) may be different from the English Midlands (an area of the country where although rugby union is played, the predominant game is Association football), but it really needs someone from South Wales to explain what is the norm, hopefully with some written references. --Philip Baird Shearer 12:01, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

The paragraph is fair. But regarding your "evidence" - You will always find people using the word soccer in Britain. It was coined as slang as is still used as slang for the Association code. If you substitute the word "rugger" for "soccer" you will get similar results. e.g. Rugger girls are KO'd Regarding www.soccerbooks.co.uk I've actually ordered a ferw books from them. There is a very simple reason why that is their URL. They sell more books to Americans that way as a search for "football" will returns loads of stuff about Aamerican football. BTW "Stop spitting soccer stars" - is just tabloid alliteration. They are very fond of that. "Soccer Star" - "Football Fanatic" etc.. Jooler 09:07, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

World wide

Since it is possible that the normal usages of British English prevail worldwide — as opposed to American English, see international English and list of countries by English speaking population — it is also possible that "football" means Association football among an absolute majority of English-speakers. However, there is no way of proving or disproving such a theory.

Although I would agree with this, as Grant65 wrote, "However, there is no way of proving or disproving such a theory". I think we may be able to fix it in another way. As association football is the most popular world wide sport and in most languages it is called football, even if for the majority of monoglot English speakers a reference might be to another code, for most people speaking English an unqualified use of the word football would be to association football. --Philip Baird Shearer 08:44, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I know Philip, but do the majority of English speakers worldwide, such as the estimated 200-300 million(!) in China, favour the non-British or British usage of "football"? I'm not sure that we have any way of knowing that. Grant65 | Talk 10:04, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, there is a way of proving or disproving it - we could ask everyone. It's not practical for us - but it can certainly be done. However, I think that sentence needs to be removed. A might be true. Or else it's false. I have no idea is not really an encyclopaedic statement. WilyD 11:42, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

There are probably some non-contentious ways that the popularity of the term can be stated. For example, once the cumilative viewing figures of the current world cup are published (along with the viewing populations in different countries) there can be made a factual statement that "as an indication of popularity of the term; among the X million/billion viewers of the 2006 World Cup approximately Y% (or Z hundred million people) use the term football (or a close phonetic equivalent) to mean Association Football."

Given that *any* term's precise usage is unlikely to ever be 'exact' the best that can be hoped is to refer to "majority" or "generally accepted" and other such words which give an indication of the term's prevelance and widespread use. For the majority of the 200+ country associtations in the FIFA federation (http://www.fifa.com/en/organisation/na/index.html) - themselves comprising a majority of all world countries (http://www.statoids.com/wab.html) - the term "football" is genrally taken to refer to "Association Football".

Another factor is that *even* diregarding the majority of countries which use the "football" term (or phonetically similar word) directly to mean Association Football, the term is *recognised* as meaning Association Football even by countries which do not have a phonetic equivalent (For example Italy, who's direct word for the sport is "Calcio" but if you were to mention the word "Football" they would naturally assume Association Football).

You can probably add up the total as follows:

• countries where Football directly means Association Football
• countries where Football phonetically means Association Football
• countries where Football is assumed to mean Association Football
• countries where Football "is likely to" or most often means Association Football

against the

• countries where Football directly does not mean Association Football

against the

• few countries where the term Football has no established meaning at all (either official or unofficial)

Mickangel 12:03, 5 July 2006 (UTC)