Talk:Ludwig van Beethoven

I LOVE PINAPPLES AND CRAP NUGGETS

Semi-protected edit request on 8 April 2014

i would like to edit this page because some of the times are wrong and the symphonies and links are wrong Lucascooper (talk) 11:11, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

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Thanks, --ElHef (Meep?) 13:45, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 April 2014

For the English pronunciation of Beethoven's name, the IPA seems to be inaccurate. It should be /vɑn/. */væn/ is incorrect -- that would be pronounced like the American English word 'van' as in 'minivan'. The audio file reflects the correct pronunciation /vɑn/.

REVISED REQUEST: The audio file for the pronunciation of Ludwig van Beethoven does not match the IPA transcription. If our source says the pronunciation of 'van' is /væn/, the audio should be replaced with a pronunciation as in the American English word 'van'. Pronunciation of æ

Chip.altman (talk) 16:54, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

I agree, but User:Kwamikagami changed on 9 September 2010 the previous "/ˈluːdvɪɡ vɑːn ˈbeɪtoʊvən/ (US) or /ˈlʊdvɪɡ væn ˈbeɪt.həʊvən/ (UK)" to "/ˈlʊdvɪɡ væn ˈbeɪtoʊvən/ (US) or /ˈbeɪt.hoʊvən/ (UK)". Three months later, on 15 December 2010, User:Xyzzyva removed the now shortened and pointless UK version. To my ears, File:En-LudwigVanBeethoven.ogg sounds like /ˈluːdvɪɡ vɑːn ˈbeɪtoʊvən/ and I would find /væn/ very odd, but http://www.forvo.com/word/ludwig_van_beethoven/ and http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ludwig+van+beethoven use /væn/. I suppose there are substantial differences between English speakers, depending on their region and interest/familiarity with the composer. Only the German pronunciation is (more or less) certain (give or take a final /…ɪç/ vs. /…ɪɡ/ in "Ludwig" or a softer /ˈbeːt.hoːvən/ instead of /ˈbeːt.hoːfən/); maybe we should assume that all readers know how to pronounce LvB's name in their English, all Wikipedia needs to provide is the German pronunciation. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 07:17, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

I find the "van" pronunciation odd as well. I suspect what has happened is what you suggest: that people half-way familiar with the German will use a pronunciation closer to the German, while the dictionaries are giving a more anglicized pronunciation.

The OED gives pronunciations of two names beginning w 'von', neither unfortunately Beethoven's. For one they have /vɒn/, and for the other /fɒn/ – neither really the German. — kwami (talk) 07:25, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

There is something of a reference source available, Robert A. Fradkin's The Well-Tempered Announcer: A Pronunciation Guide to Classical Music. The purpose of this book, I guess, is to help classical DJ's avoid embarrassing themselves with bad pronunciations of names of foreign composers and works. It typically advocates a somewhat Anglicized but not fully vernacular pronunciation. You can find the volume on Google Books. For the van in Beethoven's name Fradkin firmly recommends [ɑ], quipping in a footnote "Reserve full-English [væn] for large motor vehicles." Opus33 (talk) 16:01, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

The German pronunciation is irrelevant for English speakers. I realize that to those who know German the native English "van" pronunciation sounds odd/wrong, but their feelings are also irrelevant (sorry!). The only relevant fact is how actual English speakers say the name when speaking English, and I have never heard the pseudo-German "vahn" pronunciation from an American. Those who want to try a German version know enough to know that German v is pronounced /f/, so they say "fahn"; most Americanize it to sound like the word "van." Again, I apologize to those whose sense of fitness is offended by that fact, but it is a fact. I'm not going to change the pronunciation in the article because I don't want to get into a tedious edit war, but I have to register here the fact that the article as it stands does not reflect normal U.S. pronunciation. Languagehat (talk) 21:10, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

I'd argue the reverse: the English pronunciation is irrelevant for English speakers, because they already know it. Relevant for the interested reader is the German pronunciation. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 05:36, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps you'd suggest getting rid of all English pronunciations in English Wikipedia then, since you think English speakers automatically know them? In any case, it would certainly be better to have no English pronunciation in this article than an incorrect one. Languagehat (talk) 19:29, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Painting

I suggest to show the complete painting that now has an article. (See also) It is a welcome change from all the faces and shows the style of the time well. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:50, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 August 2014

Under Memorial, first paragraph, last sentence:

Current text reads, "His name appears in gilded lettering above the stage of Symphony Hall, Boston, as it was the only one on which all the board members could agree when commemorating composers in the architecture." A citation is needed.

Found the citation but the text needs to be changed to reflect the source's information. Perhaps: Beethoven's name was inscribed on one of the plaques that trim the stage and balconies of Symphony Hall at the Boston Symphony Orchestra. While the other plagues were left blank, it was believed that Beethoven's popularity would not change.

http://www.bso.org/brands/symphony-hall/about-us/historyarchives/the-history-of-symphony-hall.aspx

Shortbread516 (talk) 04:22, 5 August 2014 (UTC)Shortbread516

Image selection

I'm confused as to why the only images included here are of a white Beethoven. He was described as dark-skinned by almost everyone who made note of his appearance, including Frederick Hertz, Emil Ludwig, And Alexander Thayer in his Life of Beethoven. If this is news, perhaps a small informative subsection on heritage might be included, detailing his mother's Moorish lineage.

File:Http://open.salon.com/files/deathmask21254123350.jpg

File:Http://open.salon.com/files/beethovenweb1254114366.jpg

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.162.88.196 (talk) 14:02, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

These claims seem apocryphal at best. --50.201.196.54 (talk) 22:57, 23 September 2014 (UTC)