Talk:Malaysia Airlines Flight 17/Archive 21

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New "Criminal investigation" section

I noted above several times that the criminal investigation is where most interesting developments concerning MH17 are going to occur. Thus, I created a new Criminal investigation section. I found two other relevant sources besides the ones discussed here. I'm actually surprised that the article had said essentially nothing about the criminal investigation. I have taken into account objections that had been made to my presentation of the Spiegel interview. I believe that my edit fairly represents the Spiegel interview. Note that Reuters' take on the interview was "MH17 prosecutor open to theory another plane shot down airliner". A reliable source found this notable, so this fact must be kept in. I have made clear that even though the prosecutor is "open", he nevertheless strongly favors one theory. Thus, I include the quote "Going by the intelligence available, it is my opinion that a shooting down by a surface to air missile remains the most likely scenario. But we are not closing our eyes to the possibility that things might have happened differently." I just include the first sentence; I don't include the second one. But the "if we in fact do want to try the perpetrators in court, then we will need evidence…" bit must stand, because the headline of the English Spiegel article is "Chief MH17 Investigator on German Claims: 'We Will Need Evidence'". Thus, according to English Spiegel, that is the most notable thing that Westerbeke said in the interview.
We need a new section about the criminal investigation. So please don't anyone undue my edit. This interview with Westerbeke is highly notable, and must be included in the article. If somebody thinks something needs to be changed, please bring it up in Talk, instead of engaging in aggressive editing. Note that I am following BRD: "When the discussion has improved understanding, attempt a new edit that may be acceptable to all participants in the discussion." – Herzen (talk) 22:47, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Herzen, can you please put a heading on this comment, so it doesn't dangle off the bottom and I don't get in trouble again??? Please? :) USchick (talk) 23:04, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Thank you! :-) USchick (talk) 23:10, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

This is not the first source that says investigators are considering other theories. We have Malaysian Japanese and Singapore sources, but no one likes those and to this day we have no explanation why they're not acceptable. They were very early reports, and now we have a later report (dated today) that confirms all those early reports. USchick (talk) 23:15, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Our new SPA once again made an aggressive edit instead of following guidelines and raising the matter in the ongoing Talk discussion first. – Herzen (talk) 23:24, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

If this section is getting too long, I support the idea of a new article for the Investigation. USchick (talk) 23:37, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

The section is long because of all the hearsay and speculation in the "Cause of crash" section. Now that there is a real criminal investigation underway, and the chief prosecutor has said "if we in fact do want to try the perpetrators in court, then we will need evidence and more than a recorded phone call from the Internet or photos from the crash site" (something the SPA with the username ‎Tlsandy instantly deleted), all of that hearsay and speculation has become utterly irrelevant, and thus should be removed from the article. – Herzen (talk) 23:59, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Nothing needs to be removed from the article. For the thousandth time, you can call it "hearsay and speculation", but what it is is actually info from reliable sources. The existence of a criminal investigation does not change anything. Volunteer Marek  00:21, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

(ec) and to this day we have no explanation why they're not acceptable - again, blatantly false. This has been explained several times, you just keep pretending that it hasn't. In fact, it was explained to you in an ANI discussion which was started because you falsely accused an editor of being racist. So there's no way in hell that you can sincerely believe that "to this day we have no explanation". Stop playing games. Volunteer Marek  23:43, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Instead of ranting, would you like to give the reason? So we all know? The section with the links is called "Conflicting claims" there's a proposal there, but there's no discussion there. USchick (talk) 00:02, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Whatever "explanations" may have been given, they have become obsolete, given that Reuters has published a story with the headline "MH17 prosecutor open to theory another plane shot down airliner" and IBTimes has published a story with the headline "MH17 News Update: Pilot Was Targeted Right In The Stomach – Expert Alleges" (which IBTimes pulled from its Web site, but then put back again). The "game" has changed. The idea that considering the possibility that MH17 was shot down by a fighter plane is a conspiracy theory and FRINGE just doesn't work anymore. I'm sorry to have to break this news to you. – Herzen (talk) 00:13, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

For further discussion, I would like to point out that Indian Reuters published this information. So now we have all kinds of foreign sources that contradict American sources. I like America (it's in my user name), but to ignore all these foreign sources, someone needs to provide a very good reason. If you need to me link them all in one place, just let me know. And we also need to explain in the article why America has anything at all to say about this event. They're on the opposite side of the globe and not at all involved in the crash. USchick (talk) 00:22, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Please try to distinguish between America and the USA. Thanks. Lklundin (talk) 00:48, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

The IBTimes just notes that there's a video out there which claims that a jet shot down the plane. And that this is the official position of Russia. So what? That's already in the article. Haisenko is still a fringe source, this is still a conspiracy video, this is still junk (come on, use some common sense - pilot was targeted right in the stomach? Even if a jet tried to shoot down the plane that is just stupid). So no go.

With the Reuters story you guys are seizing - and misrepresenting the sensationalist headline. Why not focus on what the article actually says. Like "An interim report issued by the Dutch Safety Board, which investigates air crashes, listed several passenger jets in flight MH17's vicinity, but no military aircraft that would have been capable of shooting it down.". All that the article says is that prosecutors will consider all possibilities, even the unlikely ones. It does not say that the prosecutor considers all theories equally possible. In fact it explicitly says that that isn't the case. This is just another attempt at pushing a POV in this article. No go. Volunteer Marek  00:57, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

@Lklundin, yes, please excuse me, US sources. USchick (talk) 01:23, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

So the headline is both "sensationalist" and "misrepresented" by me? How does that work, exactly? How do I "misrepresent" a headline by quoting it verbatim? And no matter how many times you accuse me of pushing a POV, it is you who are pushing a POV, by trying to keep the article from abiding by Wikipedia policy. All I am doing is "striv[ing]… [to] document and explain the major points of view". If Reuters reports that the "MH17 prosecutor [is] open to theory [that] another plane shot down airliner", then that is a major point of view. That the prosecutor does not find this theory to be the most likely one doesn't change that in the least. Wikipedia policy is to "describe multiple points of view, presenting each accurately and in context rather than as "the truth" or "the best view"." You keep insisting that the Buk missile theory is the best view, but that does not matter to editors who understand Wikipedia policy. – Herzen (talk) 01:51, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Edit war

 Volunteer Marek , please link to a discussion that you claimed happened for this edit [1]. Please self revert or I will call for sanctions to be enforced. Thank you. USchick (talk) 20:50, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

The Time Magazine thing is all over this page. Read the talk page, stop playing these WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT games, don't threaten people with sanctions when your own behavior has been quite egregious (like falsely accusing others of racism, misrepresenting sources, moving people's comments, misrepresenting editors, etc.), and quit wasting other people's time.

I should add something about the title of this section "edit war". USchick has been trying to add a POV tag to this article for some time. There is no consensus that such a tag is warranted, much less that it has been meaningfully substantiated. USchick's response has been to initiate and inflame edit wars on this article based on some kind of logic which says "if there are edit wars then that means the article is not neutral". See similarly titled section above. This is obviously acting in bad faith. Stop it. Volunteer Marek  20:57, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

There's an open RfC about the tag specifically for people to comment there. Your attempt here is to edit war after a BRD process. I call for an admin to review the history and enforce sanctions please. USchick (talk) 21:02, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Then gather your evidence, provide the diffs and file the report in the proper venue, WP:AE, where the accuser takes as much risk of being sanction as the accused. Generically "calling for admins to enforce sanctions please" is just a smear-intimidation tactic which alleges sanction worthy behavior without actually offering any proof to that effect. Volunteer Marek  21:14, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

And let me point out that you've repeatedly tried to force text into the article despite numerous objections on talk. And then you come to the talk page and pretend that these objections don't exist, endlessly asking "show me the discussion". It's right above. Volunteer Marek  21:18, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

This article is sanctioned for a reason and I'm calling for enforcement. The discussion above gives no reason to remove sourced content except WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT and shows repeated refusal to discuss. Proof [2] Since you have to have the last word, go ahead, I'm done arguing. USchick (talk) 21:24, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

The BRD process you refer to above demands that after a bold addition (by Herzen) and a revert (by me) discussion is finished before anyone (including USchick) adds it again. So you reverting me already goes against the idea of the WP:BRD process which you yourself bring to the table. In that light Volunteer Marek had every right to revert your edit in turn. Arnoutf (talk) 22:12, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Hmmmm, I think you're right about that! I just read the BRD more closely, and my edit was wrong. VM continued the edit war. Ok, I recall my request for sanctions, but we still have an edit war. Now do we want to discuss it? USchick (talk) 22:29, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Note: after the above comment (22:29) a new section was created above regarding this topic. Stickee (talk) 12:08, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

I reported the incident to ANI, without much hope though.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:13, 28 October 2014 (UTC)