Talk:Doomsday (Doctor Who)

Created page based on new of the title of this story in this week's Radio times (bingo99)

Which week's RT? Jackiespeel 16:34, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

3 December 2005's judging from the page history. However, the title has been reported authoritatively from different sources since. —Whouk (talk) 17:55, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Should I put the rumour about the black Dalek on... there was a black NEW dalek at the Baftas and also there's the speculation about that quote "maybe even a Dalek". It might have something to do with the cliffhanger. Its worth a mention as it was reported by the Sun, although unofficial.

Inserted! Arkracer

Ending Spoiler

Does anyone have a reference link to the supposed cliffhanger details? The only mention I've seen was a small article in the Sun, so I'm rather skeptical. --ZoraJolteon 18:32, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

BBC quoted this- "Dave Bradley, editor of SFX Magazine, told the BBC News website there had been "a lot of rumours" regarding Piper's exit. But he said that even if Rose did meet a sticky end, the door would still be open for her to return. "No-one ever stays dead in science-fiction," he said". Which sounds like he's speculating like anything - I reckon Adric is definitely dead and ain't coming back.GraemeLeggett 11:49, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Rose and Jackie

If Rose is gone, surely Jackie's out of the show too. Billie Piper's resignation means Camille Coduri will be redundant. Perhaps this should be added to the page? Digifiend 09:38, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Maybe Jackie will be the next companion. --Billpg 11:25, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

• Nope. It's either Freema Agyeman (who appears in Army of Ghosts and Doomsday as Adeola) or Michelle Ryan, according to The Sun.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2006270818,00.html Digifiend 12:04, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Not necessarily, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch for Jackie to remain on in some capacity or another, with or without Piper's character. (Not that I think she won't be written out at the same time as Rose, but there isn't enough evidence to support that she is leaving either) The_B 17:50, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Predictions

So, since it's said to be a "two-part story", I assume that "Army of Ghosts" will have something to do with "Doomsday", I'm I right? Ok, then. So, we know that ghosts are appearing on earth enmasse. It seems that people are getting used to it quickly, as one appears on Trica Goddard's show, and I'm thinking that the Eastenders directors would work ghosts into their storylines. (What's better than finishing off a dragging murder storyline than to have the deceaced pop up themselves in ghost form and point the finger at the murderer?) So, we know that ghosts are coming, but are they only human ghosts? Plenty of Darleks and Cybermen have died over the years, both on the television programs, radio shows and books made for Doctor Who. What I'm thinking, from piecing this together, is that armies of Darlek and Cybermen ghosts are coming back to try and take over earth in their ghost forms. Their hatred of everything would be enough to emotionally fuel them to do such a thing, and come into conflict with each other. Or, maybe, the Torchwood Tower is creating some sort of energy which is giving ghosts their incorpral form AND pulling the attention of alien races towards earth, i.e. Darleks and Cybermen, of which could still exist at this point in time. I'm just wondering if this may help. --D'Argent 19:09, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

• sort of correct, ghosts of dead people start to appear, Dirty Den appears in the Queen Vic and annoys Peggy, who says "The only spirits i want to serve are whisky, brandy and gin!" And a woman goes on Trisha with the slogan "I married a dead man." This also fits in with Derek Acorah appearing in the episode, a ghost detective. The plan is fronted by the Cybermen, aided by the Daleks. This was confirmed by pictures in the Daily Star on Monday, 19th June. Ian42 19:09, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

• also... try to spell daleks right!!

Mickey & Pete

Evidence? This enough to confirm, or is this image from the trailer of Army of Ghosts too vague? (It's not my picture, but my friend who made it seems prety conivinced....) The_B 00:55, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

It certainly looks like them, but on its own its not really a sufficient source. There's no rush to add the information if it's not been made public. —Whouk (talk) 14:27, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

It's perfectly sufficient. A second later, you also see Jake. If they're in the episode, they should be added.--Keycard ^(talk) 07:26, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

They certainly will turn up in Doomsday. Vitriol 01:10, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Synopsis

Where's this from? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.153.28.108 (talk • contribs)

Here The_B 13:16, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Cast for this second part

I could be wrong of course, but I think it's safe to say that characters like Adeola, as well as the cameos from Army of Ghosts, will not be appearing in Doomsday? Just wanted to check before going ahead...--Corebowe 19:21, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

The cameos, possibly. However, we still cannot rule Adeola out, as we have to remember the alternate universe angle gives us two of nearly every character as a possibility. The_B 20:32, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Good point, I think it's safe to say that from a cost angle for the BBC, they won't continue the cameos (which were literally just flicking through the television).

-- Someone's added Davros to the cast list.. do we have confirmation of this?

The Daleks and the Cybermen join forces!

"WE ARE SUPERIOR" "No. We Are More Superior Than You." "OH SHUT UP YOU TIN MAN" "Look Who's Talking. Was Your Mother A Dustbin?"

Seriously though, I would say that the Cybermen and the Daleks joining forces would be pretty lame... it puts me in mind of Mario & Sonic. Vitriol 23:44, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

So who do Lugi and Tails pass for? Mickey and his gay buddy? Dr.R.K.Z

There's no proof they even would join forces. The Dalek's don't seem the joining type and that Cyberman could just be out of it's cybernetic mind. Besides, as the tardisode says: "We are the masters of Earth!" "Daleks conquer and destroy!"

The Daleks have used other races (e.g. Ogrons) as cannon-fodder before, and so in theory might make a deal until their numbers - there are only four of them so far - increase. But betrayal would be inevitable as soon as they were ready, and the trailer at the end of Fear Her showed battles outside of Torchwood...Lonemagpie 19:26, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of the number of Daleks, would the Daleks really take on the Cybermen with just four of them regardless of how powerful they are? Would they be willing to actually join with the Cybermen whilst they had such little numbers, or are there more Daleks waiting in the sphere or something?

The RT cover suggests that they are at war, yet the trailer suggests they at least try to get along.--Keycard ^(talk) 15:39, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd guess that the Cybermen suggest a team-up but the Daleks reject it. This fits with their respective attitudes towards things that aren't like them: the Cybermen want to change them to be like them, and the Daleks just want to destroy them. I can see them responding to each other in much the same way that they would respond to humans: Cybermen "upgrade" (or try to), but Daleks CONQUER AND DESTROY!!! —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 15:46, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I think it's interesting that it's not the Black Dalek who was there when the Cybermen made their offer and not the Cyberleader who made it either. I think both sides just sent envoys to meet with the other to see what the other side wanted(The Daleks weren't expecting the Cybermen and vice versa). I think it's going to end with The Dalek saying: "You propose an alliance?" the Cybermen say: "Yes" and the Dalek promptly destroys both. "Daleks do not ally, they exterminate!" Or something like that. It's a teaser, nothing more.

JUST BECAUSE there was a cyberman's voice superimposed over a scene of a dalek, saying "together we could upgrade the universe" doesn't mean that there is going to be such a scene at all; the cyberman could be talking to the doctor, or anybody, at this point in the actual episode - this is just how they collage trailers; I have my doubts as to whether this question will be posed to a dalek at all; watch the trailer closely: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e3p4f-u59A&search=doctor%20who%20doomsday It quite obviously shows a separate, unconnected scene of a dalek as the cyberman is speaking. This is just to get every one stirred up. 207.202.227.125 23:09, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Though I suppose that the other trailer which I didn't notice before; http://www.bbc.co.uk/broadband/mediawrapper/consoles/drwhonew/bb_rm_console.shtml?pack1-13a_16x9 does show that a dalek does respond to some kind of question. 67.5.158.75 02:33, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I suppose two or more [[alien invasion]s of the same place must occur occasionally - through the laws of probability.

Did the Daleks and Cybermen read the Evil Overlord lists on how to deal with other evil overlords - assume that they are going to double cross you etc. (g) Jackiespeel 21:46, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Genesis Arc or Ark?

Isn't Genesis Ark more likely than Arc?

• Have to agree. 86.131.210.189 22:19, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

What do you suppose the ark is. I reckon its Davros. All the Daleks were wiped except these four. They need Davros to create more. And Ark could be a reference to noahs ark!!

They don't need Davros to create more Daleks. These Daleks clearly have capabilities superior to all other races with that sphere of theirs, it'd be a small issue to go through the dimensions and pick up some Dalek buddies and go blow stuff up. Besides, Davros would be too far out of left field for the show they seem to be trying to make here. Daleks people recognize, they don't recognize Davros to the same extent.

The Daleks Don't need Davros as in Power of the Daleks a dalek capsule similar in size to the sphere contained a Production unit for manufacture of the Dalek casings and a laboratory for the creation of the daleks themselves, anyway if Davros does show up then these daleks will have been created by him inside this sphere (IF it is his escsape capsule)

Sounds like arc to me, as it seems more like a weapon (possible a doomsday device)--Warlorddagaz 19:45, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Genesis ark could be a reference to Genesis of the Daleks episode--- featuring Davros!!

But this show wouldn't do something like that. This show wants to appeal to newcomers and Davros showing up would turn off viewers who haven't really falled Who history. Everyone knows about the Daleks(though their history in this show has not been commented on that heavily), most people know about the Cybermen(who were now given a different backstory, though of course the 'real' Cybermen presumably still exist somewhere), and most fans knew about Sarah and K-9. Davros just isn't that popular of a character, IMO, and with no build up at all for him it seems unlikely they'd shoehorn him in. The Genesis Ark will be something, it's just a question of what. I cannot imagine Davros showing up in this series without a buildup. So far we've only heard a brief reference of the Kaleds over the last two series and definitely nothing about a creator. I mean when Sarah said she met the Daleks, Rose said she met the Emperor, Sarah should've shot back that she met their creator, but she didn't. This show just doesn't want to get to continuity heavy right now it seems.

However Davros showed up in Genesis of the Daleks fairly unexpected. Regardless, Davros' Daleks are white & gold; ones which he had to genetically re-engineer to be loyal to his person. The mainstay Daleks, like those appearing in Army of Ghosts, are grey with black leaders; the same that opposed Davros from the beginning, possibly for not being a Dalek himself (since Davros created them to see nothing superior to their own kind), and only used him as a pawn when they were in peril. Those black & grey daleks were the Rebels in the Genesis of the Daleks episode which was Davros' final appearance thus far also, again, the kind of daleks loyal to Davros were white with gold.... HOWEVER, these Daleks came from another dimension; their origins could be from an alternate reality, as different as those of these Cybermen, Davros may not have been their creator at all in the dimension these daleks are from. 67.5.157.114 08:43, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Hm - Davros was "unexpected" before Genesis? Well, Terry Nation didn't invent him until he was prompted to write "Genesis" - so it would be pretty hard to expect him before he existed as a concept - but then, once you see him, in his Dalek wheelchair, in a story about preventing the Dalek's creation with the word "Genesis" in its title, it's difficult not to guess who he is. If you didn't notice, the dalek's got redesigned for the new series - none of them are "white and gold Davros daleks" anymore, they're all gold. And the new series has totally ignored the last Davros story where the Doctor tricked him into destroying Skaro with the Hand of Omega - there's a whole lot of "missing" explanation for how the Daleks moved on from there into being such a force in the Universe that they could destroy the Time Lords... RTD loved the old series, but he isn't expecting his new viewers to do tonnes of Dr Who "homework" before they can enjoy the new series. PaulHammond 20:11, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I meant rememberance, not sure why I typed genesis.

HA, Daleks from another universe my ass, they were just waiting outside of Time and Space, a final resort. Wait for the episode to air before sprouting nonsense made from the last five minutes of "Army of Ghosts"

They did come from outside the dimension; saying they *COULD* be from an alternate reality themselves is perfectly plausible speculation, so you're hostility is utterly without merit; it has nothing to do with the last five minutes of the previous episode; the entire episode was on the voidship, and the earlier two parter cyberman episode was based on an alternate continuity. 207.202.227.125 23:01, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

..Please, in denial much? They were even referencing it and asking The Doctor how he survived it. the "Ark" was a Time Lord prison You don't have to reitterate what the two-part Cyberman story featured to completly avoid the point.

My hostility is often warranted on the desperate

And what point is that exactly? If rose's mother and father are together in an alternate world, so too can there be time lords and similar occurences about them in an alternate world, citing a "what if" is not the same as making a point, not even a "desparate" one. It is a potential point as much as a potential world. Why it bothers you so much is beyond me, but you are being utterly silly. 67.5.158.204 05:44, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

New Companion

Can we list this yet? Technically, we are making public information that is is embargoed until tommorow, and it is rather spoilerific, considering not even the Sun, that benchmark of spoilers, has picked up on the new info. smurrayinchester^{(User), (Talk)} 15:05, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

If nobody has picked up the info, we can't use it here. 24.136.38.121 16:06, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

According to the source of the information (which actually has no clear message, other than that at some point You-Know-Who will return as an entirely different character, and that the Xmas special contains "a surprise"), it is embargoed until 1minute past midnight tomorrow morning (UK time, presumably). Therefore it's immoral, if not illegal, for us to display it. I'm removing it on this basis.--Keycard ^(talk) 16:47, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

On the same basis, I've removed the content of the offending page with a placeholder for it not to be edited till the time. Could an admin lock the page please? The_B 18:20, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

No. It's certainly not illegal, and its defitely not immoral - we aren't breaching a trust ourselves. Locking the page the other way might be more sensible, but I don't propose to do that. Further to this point, I've reverted. Please feel free to join the already existing discussion about this issue at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Doctor_Who rather than make unilateral changes here. Morwen - Talk 19:24, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Not that it matters now, but the Sun made the announcement before Part 1, leading them to get a plastering for "getting it wrong" when she died.

What are the Cybermen saying?

Can anyone make out what the Cybermen are saying on the BBC Doctor Who page this week? I've listened to it over and over, and no-one else I know has been able to make it out. It sounds something like "En-mate". I'm sure it must be really obvious though, and I'll feel daft when someone says what it is. :-) --DudeGalea 18:40, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

"Delete" and "Upgrade" The_B 18:42, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

"Upgrade" I got, but "Delete"? I suppose it makes sense, but I really can't hear the initial "D"! --DudeGalea 19:19, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

It's delete. The 'D' is flattened a little by the effects, though there's a sort of *bumphf* to the beginning of the word. Problem with compressing it for Flash, I suppose. --86.144.60.11 14:38, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

It sounded like "Eliminate" to me. PaulHammond 19:46, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

There's not even enough syllables for that...besides, the exact same sound is available as a soundbyte on the downloads page- it's labelled 'delete'. --86.144.60.11 09:42, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Euthanasia?

I have changed "euthanised" to killed, as I believe euthanasia refers to the killing of an individual for their own benefit. As it does not seem obvious that the doctor killed her for her own benefit, I saw "killed" more fitting. As of my understanding, I think he killed her for the benefit of the planet, not to stop her pain.--Warlorddagaz 19:47, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I dunno, the "pain" of not being in control of your own actions? The_B 19:50, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

He killed the cybermen to prevent the suffering of the humans inside in a previous episode, so i think euthanised is better. Especially since he said "i'm sorry..."

If he was doing it for her benefit, why would he say sorry to her. The reason I saw as him killing her was to stop the ghost shift being started. However, as it is unclear, killed would be alot more accurate than eutanisised, which could be viewed as misleading.--Warlorddagaz 17:44, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Didn't he say that they (the controlled humans) were already dead?

This is getting more and more "wheeeeeeeeeee" (sorry - couldn't think of a better way of describing it!). This is a fair point. Anyway - it has gone now, so unless anyone want to keep on arguing for the sake of winning (I will hapily defend my viewpoint!), we should remember that it doesn't really matter.--Warlorddagaz 19:03, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Weren't they already dead at the time? The cybermen had killed them, and were using them as slaves. The Doctor just "shut them down".

Rose

I think the BBC are making it too "obvious" that Rose is going to die. And the BBC are very good at not giving things away so every time I think about it I get a nagging feeling telling me that she's not.

Firstly in an interview Billie Piper said she was quitting "for now" which would suggest it is possible that she could come back (but then again people have come back from the dead before! And if the Daleks, who I thought were wiped out of existence by the creepy-glowy-eyes-heart-of-the-TARDIS Rose at the end of the last series, then I'm sure they COULD bring a companion back from the great beyond.) Also my ideas were re-inforced by Jackie speaking of a metaphorical death of Rose ("She wouldn't be Rose anymore.") I reckon she's going to be Cybered!

And then we will have the whole 'Jackie/Doctor "You said you'd bring her back to me safely!" "I'm sorry. I'm so sorry"' moment. Of course if I am wrong then I will place an apology in full!

"With Wikipedia, We can upgrade the universe!" Muahahaha User: Dr. M. MacLain

Are we not considering how she can possibly be narrating the tale of her death if she really does die? Maybe it's a metaphor for something else...

Fictional characters do this sort of thing all the time, so it doesn't indicate anything either way. --86.144.60.11 13:34, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Most likely a metaphor or an making something dramatic. Maybe the Doctor, with the mental effect of having Companions stay with him until they die, thinks "Hey, it's got really dangerous now for Rose with all this Daleks and Cybermen around. I think I should leave her here to live out the rest of her live in peace rather than end up on the business end of a Cybermen's gun" and drops her. Then, for some reason, he takes the character Freema Agyeman will be playing (A different one to the one that died last episode) with him for the third series. --D'Argent 12:17, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I support this idea to an extent, thinking about the introduction to Army of Ghosts. She says how her life was going nowhere before she found the Doctor, and in the episode she repeats this sentiment when telling her mother "I used to work in a shop!"

--It could well be a metaphorical death, but I doubt she would let the doctor leave her behind just to keep her safe. We'll have to wait and see. however, maybe the BBC are making it obvious so they surprise us when she doesn't actually die. Oh - and what's with the beach?--Warlorddagaz 19:06, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Wondering about Rose and the beach - if she is now recalling the killing of the Emperor Dalek... perhaps she isn't Rose... but something acting through her? would account for her body in one place and her mind elsewhere... the Tardis perhaps? 81.179.70.11 22:11, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

They were quite careful with the voiceovers at the beginning of "Army of Ghosts" - she said "This is the planet where I was born, and this is where I died" (which is cheated by making sure the Doctor explicitly mentions the fact that, so far as "original" Earth is concerned, she is listed as one of the dead). In hindsight, it *is* a little obvious that when you've got parallels coming back into this Earth, and there's a chance of a ready-made family on parallel-world and a good reason why she couldn't stay with the Doctor, she had to be left in parallel-Earth. Anyone else finding themselves reminded of the end of Philip Pullman's trilogy, where Lyra and Will come from parallel worlds, but have to close the rifts between worlds for a good in-story reason leaving the lovers divided at the end? PaulHammond 19:53, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

- Somthing I've been thinking of is Rose possibly becoming involved in Torchwood...

Perhaps the metaphor points to an emotional death, perhaps the death of Jackie, Mickey or Pete will cause the "death" of her joy. 81.77.142.117 09:28, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that Rose will 'die' die, mainly because I remember reading that Russel T. Davis said that they would leave the door open for her to return. And since we saw her looking very bleak and wearing almost all black (a sign of mourning) at the start of Army of Ghosts, I don't think she will 'die' die. Ixistant 16:04, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

3d glasses

Just found this site -how many different types -thoughts on why they're so important -methinks they're either to do with seing other worlds/dimensions etc or hold a clue in defeating cybermen remember - doctor thinks at this point all daleks are dead - but cybermen around - ) http://www.berezin.com/3D/3dglasses.htm [please remove link if not allowed - as not on main article and not actually promoting site, just wanted to demonstrate variety!] Crescent 22:53, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Rose remembering destroying the Dalek Emperor 'discrepancy'

Surely the Doctor just told her what happened? :P

I agree. I don't see the discrepancy. Just because she didn't remember immediately after it happened (which is to be expected, she was coming out of an altered state of consciousness) doesn't mean once she regained her composure that she didn't remember all the physical happenings around her, although that's not to say she retained the knowledge of the time vortex itself, but what she did and what actions she took. 207.202.227.125 23:12, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

It did seem a bit inconsistent to me, but she could have been told be the doctor. Or maybe we will find out tonight...--Warlorddagaz 15:43, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. To declare that there's a "discrepancy" is violates both WP:NOR and WP:NPOV. I'm going to remove that bit. -- MisterHand 02:02, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Why is this in the article at all? It be stranger is she had NO knowledge of these events. Even if she doesn't remember, surely the Doctor would have told her. Would she never have asked, "So, what ever became of those hordes of Daleks invading Earth?" I don't think this bit is remarkable at all. Crockalley 15:59, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Pete Tyler

So, what do people think about Pete Tyler's appearance in the trailer? At least, I think it's him. He does seem to have a slight Ross Kemp vibe to him - "This is our world. And you're going to listen for once." Who do we suppose this is said to? Matthew Platts 13:39, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Gotta be the Doctor.

He will be saying it to the CyberLeader or a normal Cyberman.

Dalek thing

Am I wrong or is that 'third Dalek' we see from the sphere actually the Genesis Ark, assuming what we think is the Genesis Ark is the Genesis Ark?

One of teaser trailers shows four Daleks surrounding the Genesis Ark. —Whouk (talk) 14:57, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Is it not possible that the Ark is used to create more Daleks and the fourth Dalek was just created, though?

Anything's possible. (It is entirely possible that I am not a human being, but a highly evolved bicycle.) We'll just have to wait and see. In the meantime, I'm refilling my tyres. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 15:56, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh, do you wheelie think so? --DudeGalea 17:09, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Quite possible. Best to wait and see, as always. —Whouk(talk) 19:50, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I would assume there are 4 Daleks though, mainly as the Wallpaper for the upcoming episode (and the front page) shows four Daleks. Although I reckon the Genesis Ark appear from the Sphere later. Another point could be that simply Torchwood picked it up, not knowing what it was (remember they did seem to reference this fact quite a lot in Army of Ghosts) and the Daleks have arrived to take it back, setting the events in motion. My two pennies worth anyway... The_B 22:51, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

The Ark is Davros

Wrong.

Only 35 minutes left until all is revealed. I'm almost peeing myself with anticipation. Well, maybe that's a bit strong, but... -195.93.21.3 17:24, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

DAMN that was good. I'm still in tears... Kinitawowi 18:57, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

When the Doctor opened the Breach to suck all the Daleks and Cybermen into the void, didn't I notice the leader Dalek say something like "initiate emegency temporal shift" and vanish? Did this Dalek escape or get sucked into the void with the others? -195.93.21.3 19:35, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure 'he' escaped, leaving RTD with yet another excuse for bringing back the Dalek(s)--Corebowe 19:39, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely! There's no way the doctor can finally eliminate all the daleks in the universe, after RTD and everyone made such an effort to bring them back with cool new superpowers (so, now dalek's can use their plungers to suck memories out of a living human brain, huh?) PaulHammond 19:57, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Not only memories, either. They perform plastic surgery so you look like Davros, too --Gomez 20:12, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

As he simply vanished, I am pretty sure he got away. I actually though they would show him re-appear somewhere, as a cliffhanger. The runaway bride was a bit an anti climax. --Gomez 19:43, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Does my face look bovvered? PaulHammond 19:58, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

The Black Dalek got away, but did the Genesis Ark disappear also?--United Kingdom thegreatloofa^(talk) 20:28, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

No, you can see the Genesis Ark being pulled away (towards the Void hole) when the Black Dalek disappears. --Gomez 20:31, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

All of which rather poses the question: why didn't the TARDIS fall through the breach...?

The TARDIS has chronogravasynchroquantum stabilisers, obviously. :P

A point worth mentioning. Everything that had travelled through the void was presumably sucked into the breach. A Dalek got away, yes - but don't forget. There's at least one Cyberman (who was converted before Yvonne in this universe) and Cyber-Yvonne herself. They're probably still alive... The_B 22:21, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Unles the cyberman bodies also came through the breach. After all, there was little time to create these robotic bodies in the episode's short time span. --Gomez 09:47, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

From a logistical point of view, I would imagine that creating Cyberbodies on-site would be easier, faster and cheaper than switching to Lombard Direct... uh, no. But that would explain why Cyber Yvonne still had a hold on her senses: they bodged the job. You wouldn't imagine that the technology of two parallel universes would be exactly the same, would you? Vitriol 20:46, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

A great episode on the whole. Some of the argumentative robotic dialogue between Daleks and Cybermen was classic (Dalek: "WE HAVE NO CONCEPT OF ELEGANCE!!!" Cyberman: "THAT IS OBVIOUS." etc) Funny stuff...-195.93.21.3 19:46, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. My favourite line: "You are superiour to us in one respect--you are better at dying!" Great line, that. DonQuixote 01:57, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Plot needs reworking

A lot of the plot details happens to be rather confused chronologically. I am attempting to rework it. So bare with me. SSJ Undertaker 20:37, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Geography

If the fjord is a real fjord, we should have an article on it. Beware when checking, however, that the BBC has been quietly seeding the web with "dårlig ulv" since 2005. An actual atlas will be a better research tool. Jonathan de Boyne Pollard 20:45, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Zilch in the Phillip's World Atlas. --Lady BlahDeBlah 21:10, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

You need Pete's World Atlas! Ba-dum tish!

Googling 'darlig ulv' brings up Lost references... possible crossover next year? :D

And introducing...

Do we need the "And introducing" bit in the cast list? Why can't we just have "The Bride - Catherine Tate"? smurrayinchester^{(User), (Talk)} 21:29, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Makes it sound likes she's going to be a regular...

It's more the convention of having cast lists as they appear on screen. The_B 22:13, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

That's how the actual episode's credits list her...

Plot

Can someone write a more detailed plot? It leaves out chunks of story, and I think there should be more detail to Rose getting trapped in the parallel world.

Name dropping

I just may be paranoid.. but maybe you ar not paranoid enough. This episode in the alternate universe the doctor askes who runs this counrty. Harriet Jones is named. Why? (maybe just a funny detail as we 'know' her.) It struck me that more names were dropped this series. The 'terrorist mum' tells the doctor her name before she dies. Again, why? It does not ad to the plot... I guess. Scooti Manista, dubious name.

Any more strange 'name dropping' somebody has noticed? --Puppy Zwolle (Puppy) 23:57, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

• The Cybermen killed the British President so alt-Harriet Jones was used by Davies when the story called for the deceased president's successor to be named. It's just a harmless quick nod to fans as referenced by the Doctor's "You wanna keep your eyes on her". The existing Harriet Jones came to power after the Slitheen screwed up UK parliament, so it's subtle joke that alt-Harriet came to power under similar circumstances. Nothing to get bent out of shape about --HellCat86 00:50, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

The "Golden Age" was connected with Harriet Jones last year, too - that's what made the Doctor think to ask who the new President was - it's a cute in-joke reference to the fans. PaulHammond 01:06, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think "cute" can be substantiated. GraemeLeggett 10:02, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Dalek Names

Can we be certain that's how the Dalek names are spelled? Caan and Sec seem to be rather weird spellings for the names they gave.--86.132.112.178 01:53, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

No - I haven't seen these names written down anywhere. If someone finds them somewhere, we should correct them. There seems to have been an argument over which one was the Black Dalek - is he definitely Sek? PaulHammond 12:15, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Black Dalek or not, there was no Dalek named 'Sek' with a 'K'. The BBC website claims that one of them was called 'Sec' and another 'Thay'. The others aren't referred to on the site, so we'll just have to guess the spellings, I suppose. RobbieG 14:46, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Robbie, can you give me a link to the page where the Dalek names are mentioned on the BBC website? I've been all over it, can't find them anywhere, and a search on "Dalek" pulls up old news articles about the rights being cleared for Series one, and "Sec" doesn't bring up anything. PaulHammond 15:47, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I imagined "Caan" as "Khaan" when I first heard it. And "Sec" as "Sek". I hope the BBC can let us know what the real names are, although it's only trivia...-195.93.21.3 17:09, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

A copy of the script is the only way to know. Hey.. I'm sure someone at the BBC has access to wikipedia.... 67.5.158.225 02:41, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

KHAAAAN!! Vitriol 15:03, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Apart from Dalek Thay and Dalek Sek that were written of the BBC Doctor Who Sounds Page, Aren't the spelling of the other two Daleks original research? Liyster 07:57, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Zeg not Sec

I'm convinced the Black dalek's name was 'Zeg', this would be a homage to the 1960s Century 21 Dalek Chronicles comic strip that appeared in TV 21. Zeg was a renegade Dalek in the comic strip who challenged the authority of the Dalek Emperor, leading to a fight to the death between them. RTD has already referenced the comic strip in previous episodes, eg, the design of the Dalek spaceships from Parting of the Ways were based on Dalek Chronicles, which RTD has acknowledged quercus robur 20:00, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Interesting as that would be, the fact remains that BBC's website actually does spell it "Sec", and it's probably safe to assume that's official. RobbieG 14:56, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

OK... On re-watching the episode I must say it did actually sound more like Sec I must admit, shame it would have been a nice little touch... quercus robur 19:04, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Surely Bee Zed (Zed Bee) - the subtitle company - will work from a script. Therefore, from the subtitles of the episode the Dalek names should be taken as Dalek Sec, Dalek Thay, Dalek Caan and Dalek Jast. Thank you.

I'm confused as to the nature of these subtitles - the episode hasn't been released on DVD yet, so presumably these are subtitles only available to digital viewers. Are they done manually? If so, I'm surprised there were any at all for this top-secret episode. Also, I have in front of me a copy of the Radio Times (West/South/SW, 17-23 June). In the Letters page, one Audrey Ostmo, of Norwich complained that her subtitles had rendered "Mahmoud Abbas" as "Manchester United Abbas", "Stella McCartney" as "Stella car mechanic" and "migratory ducks" as "gay Tory ducks"! She put this down to "modern technology", so I assume these subtitles to be automatic and therefore unofficial. Even if they are done manually, as with the DVDs, I seem to recall that that didn't stop "Raxacoricofallapatorius" from being written as "Rexicoricalfaluptorius", or something like that. RobbieG 21:46, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Subtitles in their various forms are, in my experience, pretty unreliable, particularly for the more...esoteric knowledge of a given program. Like that one about 'Bad Move' from the End of the World, of the top of my head, though I've seen things like that in other fandoms, too. --86.144.60.11 00:18, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Subtitles on live programmes like the news, or football commentaries, can have amusing mis-spellings. I find they're quite accurate for pre-recorded programmes.-- Arwel (talk) 18:08, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, PaulHammond, I didn't make that clear. I meant the BBC's Doctor Who website, not the main site. It's on the dowloads page. The address is:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/sounds/

Hope that clears that up for you. Sorry for any confusion caused. RobbieG 17:06, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Hey wow - it hyperlinked! I've always wondered how you do that properly. I haven't asked permission, so if I have inadvertantly infringed copyright by linking to the page, add a nowiki format to it. RobbieG 17:11, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

The latest issue of Doctor Who Adventures gives the Daleks' names as Thay, Sec, Rabe and Caan.

The Number of the Void

Presumably the Doctor's instructions to "set all coordinates to 6" refers to the "location" of the Void, a nod to his statement in Army of Ghosts that some call it Hell and also to the number's recurrence during The Impossible Planet/Satan Pit. 62.31.181.126 12:05, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Since we don't know how many coordinates there are, this is just speculation. -- MisterHand 16:29, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Spatial coordinates are usually entered in threes: x, y and z. That would give you 666.

• Irrelevant. The Void was outside of space-time, remember. MisterHand is right. Such unsourced speculation does not belong here. Jonathan de Boyne Pollard 14:04, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

That's a bit ice burn, isn't it? I'd say it's quite likely that what it would've been meant to have mean. Vitriol 23:24, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Listen, John, I'm just trying to make a useful contribution with what I know to be a fact.

What on Earth is the problem here? Especially given that two whole episodes, a couple of weeks ago, dealt with exactly this material, it's perfectly clear what the intention is. The void is "hell", so to access it you set everything to "6". If nothing else, surely you understand the joke as written. How far or how seriously we're meant to take the allusion is perhaps an issue of speculation. Its presence isn't up to interpretation in the least.--71.139.18.66 01:29, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Dating

Do the three years that passed on the other side indicate this episode as being set in 2010, going by Rise/Age's date of Feb. 2007? But then Jackie refers to Pete's death as being 20 years ago, when he died in 1987...rounding on her part, or do we just jump to otherwise odd conclusion of time moving faster in the parallel world? --86.144.60.11 12:14, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

• Or Rise OF the Cybermen took place in a different time period than "present day", does anyone remember if they actually said when the alternate universe episodes take place? No reason it couldn't have have been the 90s, or something--64.12.116.200 12:17, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

If you check out Rise's page, there's a trivia note that suggests a dating of 2007. Mickey does say 'this year' when he reads the paper, so its obviously set the same year as the main universe. --Made2Fade 12:28, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Made to fade got there first - I thought there was a newspaper in Rise of the Cybermen - near the start when they've just seen the Zeppelins and want to establish that it's not actually 1911 or something... there's far too many trivia notes over there, btw! PaulHammond 13:03, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

The parallel universe follows the same time-stream as us, so when the TADRIS fell through the crack, it must have been in the 2004 time-stream. 81.77.100.3 13:39, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but there's nothing but speculation to back that one up. The newspaper reference in "Rise" does actually tie that date to 1 Feb 2007 (or "this year" for whatever year was the present for Mickey then) - and how do we know how time passes in parallel universes, or that it is impossible for the void ship to cause a link between 2007 on this Earth and 2010 on Pete's-World? PaulHammond 15:22, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

But is there any reason to not believe that "Doomsday" took place in 2010? There seemed to be quite a few adventures we didn't see on screen between The Doctor and Rose, and we peeked into Jackie's life in terms of episodes like "Love and Monsters" and the start of "Army of Ghosts" that their traveling had become at least commonplace enough for Jackie to get used to it. Of course, I don't recal if Rose mentioned at what age she "died". This could just end up being another one of those good old Doctor Who discontinuities. Radagast83 05:52, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Point is, unless Jackie was rounding (which doesn't seem that right, given the emphasis she was putting on the point, and she referenced it several times) then the year taking Pete's death and the time since makes 2007, whereas the time passing in Pete's world suggests 2010. --86.144.60.11 10:58, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Basically, the above user is right, not sure how they are travelling through time as well as across the void (although it is feasible - Torchwood tech after all...) But the "our" universe was 2007 - mainly because in Army of Ghosts Hartman references the events that happened "last Christmas" - referring to The Christmas Invasion - and that took place Christmas 2006. The_B 20:35, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Earlier, when the Doctor first gets zorped over to the alternate Earth, it's sort of explained -- if quickly, and not in much detail. Several episodes back we landed there in 2007, possibly helping to punch a hole between the two realities. They spent a long time trying to poke through that hole, to where it comes out -- on our end -- in what still seems to be early 2007. Once they made the breach, they could hop back and forth at will with the same relative time passing in both realities.

As for why another three years passed in Pete's World in the short time it took the Doctor to send the signal -- well. That's another issue. Either the closing of the breach caused the alternate Earth to resume moving on a faster relative timescale, or the other end of the hole the Doctor found randomly happened to come out three years in the relative future -- sort of like the original hole. It kind of makes sense if you don't think about it too much. --71.139.18.66 01:20, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

- I've not seen the episode (stuck in the USA !), but is it not possible that it took the Doctor three years to find a suitable supernova to use as an energy source ? After all, 3 years is nothing in the lifetime of a timelord ! Or, perhaps he spent 3 years building a device to harness the supernova energy, and then transmit his message across parallel universes. [Or as the previous poster postulated, it could be possible that the breaches link the same places in parallel universes, but at different times - but then wouldn't the Earth be at a different position as it orbits the sun ? Perhaps that is why it is exactly a three year difference !]

66.170.53.111 05:21, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, in 3 years the solar system would have moved in its orbit around the Galactic core. We'll have to assume that the breaches are in the same frame of reference as the Earth. :) 84.69.0.192 19:17, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Genesis Ark

I suppose the Genesis Ark is literally a TARDIS, I mean it's apparently sutiable for travelling in space and time, and void, and it's bigger on the inside... What more could oyu ask for? it's a TARDIS, yay--64.12.116.200 12:15, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

The void ship did that, the ark was inside it, and the only travelling we've seen it do was to fly out of Canary Wharf and spit out a million Daleks. The TARDIS can't travel through the Void - it was crippled when it first crossed into Pete's World, and the Doctor thought that Void ships were just a theoretical concept when he saw it - which reminds me, what *did* happen to the Void ship while all those Daleks were being dragged back where they came from? PaulHammond 12:19, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I've added an entry to Trivia pointing out the obvious links between the Genesis Ark in this story and the tale of Noah's Ark in the book of Genesis in the Christian Bible. Thoughts? --Psyk0 16:13, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Ark just means "ship" or "sanctuary" - the word probably enters our language due to Noah's Ark, but I don't think there are really any more links than just the etymology of the very word itself. PaulHammond 15:25, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I've removed it, since it was original research. If you can find a citation for the theory, then we can add it back in. -- MisterHand 16:29, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

There does seem to be a link, although the point of noah's ark was to save the good people and animals. Several million daleks doesn't seem like a good thing, unless you look at it from a dalek perspective, I guess. My bible knowledge is sketchy at best but i've seen enough of the Wrath of Khan to know that Genesis means creation, whereas the the Genesis Ark isn't really creating anything, just releasing them. Given that, it seems likely that the Genesis Ark is only the Dalek name for the prison ship. And also, if the Time Lords managed to capture them, why not just destroy them? It's all original research so it can't really go in the article without a source but it's interesting.

About the Ark being a TARDIS, I don't think it really counts. It doesn't seem to be able to travel through time and even though it's described as a prison ship, it seems to use Dalek propulsion (Elevate!!!) and the Dalek's means of power. Corbo 16:34, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

A spot of googling brings up the following: a blog entry [1] and a few forum posts [2] (post 54 on that page) [3]. Is this sufficient? --Psyk0 16:38, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Along these lines would it be fair to change the comment on the article to reflect the face that it is an opinion and not a fact? I.E. that it has been hypothesised or noted that Genesis Ark is a biblical reference but not confirmed. --Psyk0 16:47, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, blog and forum posts are not reliable, nor notable, sources. Please see WP:CITE. However, if you can find quotes from production team members stating such, that would be acceptable to cite with. -- MisterHand 17:51, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

As this was a Time Lord military construct, is it safe to assume that the 'battle Tardises' looked a bit like this?

Not really, no... —Whouk (talk) 19:55, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

It was only claimed to be a prison ship, and not a TARDIS or a time traveling device. Just a pocket-dimension/compressed space kind of vessel. 67.5.158.225 02:37, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

• But doesn't T.A.R.D.I.S. (Time And Relative Dimensions In Space) literally refer its physical dimensions? length, width, height, and time, meaning that anything that's bigger on the inside, is effectively a TARDIS? and that mobility in time and/or space has nothing to do with whether or not something is a classified as a TARDIS--71.247.243.152 20:01, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

No. The "Time" part means that it can travel through time. "Relative Dimensions" means it's bigger on the inside". PaulHammond 00:10, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Well actually, this article seems to suggest that an object with properties like this would have to be at least 4 Dimensional, so in this case the time would be more like an extra cartesian coordinate. I don't know if being a hypercube-like object is also the explanation for it being able to travel in time, but certianly 'TARDIS' is a good, if not perfect, analogy for a tesseract, not likely a cooincidence--152.163.100.7 01:03, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

People should keep in mind in all this furious speculation that trying to map real-world science onto Doctor Who science and/or assuming that the writers are aware of real-world science is not a safe supposition. Certainly it is safe in some cases, but not in all of them, one would venture to say it is not safe in most cases.

One should also consider the following facts:

• In the first episode, "An Unearthly Child", Susan is the one who says she thought up the acronym TARDIS, and further says that she thought that it would be obvious once you saw "the different dimensions inside from those outside."
• Earlier in the same episode, in flashback, Susan insists on solving a physics problem in five dimensions. When Ian Chesterton ventures that since time is the fourth, so what's the fifth, she says, "Space." The definitions she's using are different. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 01:20, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Rells

I'm so glad the Dalek's excellent unit of time got a mention. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.76.76.129 (talk • contribs)

So am I. Were they in previous televised stories too? According to DiscContinuity they're in the Dalek films, but of the few classic Dalek stories I've watched, I don't recall hearing a rel so far. (I'd also like to know if Big Finish created microspans as a Gallifreyan time interval, or if they were in previous TV, novel or comic stories.) TransUtopian 03:05, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Smarter than the Doctor?

If the black Dalek did escape being sucked into the void (by vanishing with some kind of temporal-shift), 'he' will make one heck of an opponent for the Doctor in the future I think.

For one thing, he was part of a cult "above and beyond the Emperor himself" according to the Doctor. For another, I assume that this Dalek built the void-ship - technology so advanced that the Doctor himself considered it only theoretical technology. The TARDIS can't purposely travell between parallel universes, but this Dalek had the knowledge to do so.

This is one clever Dalek, and a Dr Who baddie to watch for the future.

-195.93.21.3 00:19, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Seems like it. With the emperor out of the way, this guy presumably leads any remnants of the Daleks himself, unless the rest of his cult managed to escape the same way. He might just be this series equivalent of Davros. Corbo 08:40, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone think that Dalek Sec has any connection to the Dalek Supreme in earlier series?-195.93.21.3 12:28, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I reckon so. A more advanced model, perhaps? RobbieG 15:00, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

What I'm more interested is in how the other members of the Cult changed into Rose-mutant Daleks (the gold-coloured Daleks), as they left before the end of the time war. Will (message me!) 22:00, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

They're not "Rose-mutant Daleks", they always looked like that even before Rose touched the one in The Vault. Anyway, the others didn't came into contact with Rose or that Dalek and still had that design. The production team has decided for these newer series to make all the Standard Dalek models bronze instead of silver. You probably could make continuity fit around that if you wanted to, but I wouldn't bother really if I were you. It's just another retcon. RobbieG 07:26, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Not really, Day of the Daleks, albeit set in an alternate future, featured a bunch of Gold Daleks being led by... wait for it, a Black Dalek, remind you of anything? 0: --71.249.10.72 17:17, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

On second thought, that's backwards, it was a lone Gold Dalek leading a bunch of Black Daleks, same difference--71.247.107.146 19:53, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Cyberman question

I understand about the cybermen being sucked into the Breach because they had travelled through the void - but what about the new Cybermen that they "upgraded" from humans after they invaded? They hadn't been through any void. Presumably, the Cybermen managed to "upgrade" thousands of people across the planet after they took over at the end of Army of Ghosts (even considering they had only a short time before the Daleks attacked, etc).

So, logically, there would still be at least hundreds of Cybermen still at large across the planet.-195.93.21.3 00:25, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

The humans brains were being sliced out and placed into suits of cyber-armour, so presumably the Cybermen brought the armour through with them, as I don't really see how they could have constructed it from scratch on Earth. So those armoured bodies would have been sucked back through too. - Chris McFeely 01:51, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I refuse to believe Cyber Yvonne died too, so I'll work around this another way :P Vitriol 02:54, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I would say they would use bits of torchwood to make new cybermen bodies but they may have only had the one cybermen maker in torchwood and its unclear how many of those new ones died.

Why only one Cyberman-maker in Torchwood? Surely they would begin upgrading regular humans all over the planet as soon as soon as they materialised. That's what they came to do in the first place. Cybermen don't want to co-exist with humans or just rule over them but to upgrade everybody. It seems unlikely that they only upgraded a few humans once they had occupied "every landmass on earth". I'll have to go with the theory that they brought all the new cyber-suits with them through the void for upgrading people. Otherwise, the story either doesn't make sense or there are still some surviving Cybermen. These are some of my favourite Doctor Who villains, so that actually wouldn't bother me too much. But the story ended with the assumption that they'd all been wiped out.-195.93.21.3 16:50, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

From what I saw, the Cybermen had no time after transplanting themselves into our universe due to the sudden appearance of the Daleks, leading to all of the troops being mobilised to Torchwood Tower. The only confirmed cybernization is Yvonne (which was just before Cyber-Leader 1 had his head blown off). Will (message me!) 21:40, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Come on. Even in the time it took for the Daleks and Cybermen to negotiate and taunt each other for a few minutes, the Cybermen could have upgraded tens of thousands, since they had control of every country in the world. A lot more unfolded, plot-wise, before the Daleks even launched their full attack.-Neural 22:42, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the Cybermen weren't sucked into the breach. They were sucked into the fault lines, which were distributed around the world. (This is mentioned in the episode commentary.) --DudeGalea 16:55, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Fall of Arcadia or Arcalia?

On first viewing, I too heard the Doctor's Time War reference as "I was there at the fall of Arcadia", but on second viewing it sounded more like "Arcalia", as in the Arcalian chapter of the Time Lords. Which is right? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:30, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Ran it several times. It's "Arcadia." --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 09:19, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Subtitles confirm: The Fall of Arcadia.

Thanks. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 03:51, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Bloopers

• Aside from plot holes, I was under the impression general bloopers weren't to be included in Trivia. (If they are all of a sudden, though, then how about the Doctor being affected by the wind on the beach despite being 'just an image'.) --86.144.60.11 11:05, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

The Queen's Republic

Just had a thought, how come there's still a Queen in the parallel world, (Yvonne doing her duty for "Queen and country"), when its Britain is a republic, with a President? Wolf of Fenric 15:12, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Yvonne wasn't in the parallel world; she lived in Doctor's World, as opposed to Pete's World. smurrayinchester^{(User), (Talk)} 15:23, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean? That bit was in this ("our") world. The_B 15:24, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

That Cyberman you saw defending the Lever room was the converted Yvonne Hartmann from *this* world (where the queen is alive and well) - somehow, her fixation on the idea of "Queen and country" had survived her conversion and allowed her to retain some free will. The fact that she didn't come through the rift (and therefore wasn't covered in "void stuff" so might still be on Earth) is discussed at some length above. PaulHammond 15:30, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Of course, sorry - my mistake. Wolf of Fenric 16:21, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

The Daleks in the Genesis Ark

I don't exactly understand how the Time Lord bigger-on-the-inside-than-on-the-outside technology is supposed to work, but surely they can't have travelled through the Void in any meaningful sense? I wouldn't really know, but it struck me. Vitriol 20:54, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

And the other Daleks were protected by the Sphere, which didn't seem to get sucked back in. It's probably just something which goes through anything that travels between dimensions, whether in a ship or not. It wasn't really explained all that well in the episode. Corbo 21:31, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps it's fair to assume it got sucked in as whet it activated it began existing with mass etc? --Ragzouken 23:04, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Being in a ship doesn't protect you from being exposed to "void stuff": Rose saw it on herself and at that point she'd only moved between worlds via the TARDIS. Also, the void ship seemed to vanish after the Cult of Skaro emerged, for no discernable reason. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 23:22, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

But the TARDIS didn't get sucked into the Void, did it? Because it's maAaAAaaAaAAagic. Vitriol 23:37, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

'Course it is. What show have you been watching all these years? :) --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 23:47, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Music

Does anyone have any information on the music for the final reunion scene on Bad Wolf Bay? The one with the female warbling and the piano going plink... plink... plink... continually on the same note? Because I think it is fab, and would happily purchase it ;) --Harris 21:51, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

If it's slow and solemn, it's possibly Flavia's theme (or a variation). It's used when thinks get too time-lordy. Will (message me!) 21:57, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

It sounds like a somewhat uptempo version of Flavia's theme, although in none of the materials I've seen has anybody identified it as such. If you want to hear it for yourself it's currently being played on the official site (http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho). -- MisterHand 22:03, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

That photo of Rose is distinctly unflattering. It looks like she has a moustache. Vitriol 23:03, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

It's another great Murray Gold piece. It's mentioned in the commentary (Julie Gardner says she was humming it for two weeks after hearing it the first time; I know the feeling!). If you go to the BBC Doctor Who page, hit News and Contact Us, you'll see this bit: "What was that music on the beach? It was specially composed by Murray Gold. We've still no news of a soundtrack album." Shame. I'd buy it too. It's my ringtone at the moment. :-) --DudeGalea 17:00, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

"We've still no news of a soundtrack album." Bugger! I would buy it in an instant. Doctor Who is very popular, and the music stands out as gorgeous, so why not profit and please the fans? It bewilders me. Is there a rights issue being worked out? TransUtopian 16:34, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Pete's World's "Torchwood"

Doesn't the presence of the Torchwood institute in the alternate universe where Rose, Pete, Mickey & Jackie were stranded; confirm the existence of an alternate Doctor in that universe? Torchwood being founded because of the Doctor (it being an anagram for 'Doctor Who' kind of gives it that mystique quality that makes it rather counter intuitive for an alternate purpose in the alternate reality of an institute so-named) 67.5.147.88 21:40, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

No, it does not confirm the existence of the Doctor. Just as the existence of Rose Tyler in 'this' universe did not confirm her existence in the alternate one. --Kwekubo 02:26, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Of course the existence of a person one place wouldn't indicate the existence of the same person in another reality, for the very sake of the fact that an alternate universe implies that 1 ≠ 1, i.e. its very function is being "alternate". But the activities of one individual in a self-contained universe should imply that existence of said individual, torchwood is evidence of the activities of an individual *if* being what it is as an institute intrinsically denotes the same quality for being there in the alternate universe, name et al. being evidence of existence via its modus operandi. 67.5.157.236 07:34, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Kwekubo, as The Doctor mentioned in Rise of the Cybermen, Timelords would duck in and out of the alternate universes "and be home in time for tea". Thus, "Pete's World's" Torchwood could have been set up in response to a different time traveller; the Doctor from before the Time Lords died; or a totally different alien threat. Liyster 07:46, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Also remember that, in universe, Torchwood was named after the house, not after the Doctor, so there'd be nothing particularly counter-intuitive to the people in the story about it. --86.144.60.11 08:19, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Bear in mind that the Torchwood in Pete's world seems to be much less secret, so it could have been set up much earlier. Or it could have been set up in response to something far more harmless and ordinary, and grown to encompass alien activity. Maybe it's well known as an organisation, but some of its operations are secret and involve aliens. There's not really any evidence for any theory, but I'm just trying to illustrate that there are plenty of other ways it could have been set up that are nothing to do with Tooth and Claw. RobbieG 08:25, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Speculation does not belong here. GraemeLeggett 08:56, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Sure it belongs here, haven't you ever read a talk page before?--71.247.107.146 11:21, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

In that it doesn't help the article, no. GraemeLeggett 11:41, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Sure it does, where it serves a purpose in refuting an earlier suggestion. And it's a fair point: there's no reason to believe that the only reason Torchwood can exist is if the Doctor inspired its creation. For all we know, Victoria was already mulling the idea over in her head, and all the Doctor did was change the focus of her idea; maybe rush it into production a little sooner. Maybe in this universe her husband never died, and he set up Torchwood as he'd always intended to, along with the guy who made the "telescope" at Torchwood House. All this speculation serves to illustrate is that the idea of an alternate Torchwood is not necessarily contradictory with anything we've seen, and that it does not necessarily imply the existence of an alternate Doctor. Neither does anything negate that idea; it just isn't necessary, is all. Therefore, there's no need to bring it up. --71.139.18.66 01:04, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I hope you'll forgive me for saying so, but you don't make it clear what 'speculation' you refer to. I hope you're not complaining about my speculation, because if you are, you've missed the point of it rather. I was just trying to illustrate that if we do allow speculation, there are plenty of ways that Torchwood could have been founded that don't involve a parallel Doctor. That's why, 67.5.147.88, we can't allow such speculation on the main article. RobbieG 18:34, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, I suppose it came across as speculation, but my intention was to fish out a plot hole for the possible inclusion into the article of whether it would be as unlikely as the episode made out for Rose to see the Doctor again, but since it has to do with the unfolding of the story I suppose it does fall under speculation, besides being very tentative; but story line contradiction could always be added to the trivia section. 67.5.147.136 19:31, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Besides... speculation is half the fun with Doctor Who. -Neural 03:17, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I think Graeme is making the point (albeit with great brevity!) that as fun as speculation is, wikipedia isn't the right place for it. Not even on talk pages, because the point of them is to serve as debate about what should go into the main article; they're not supposed to be used as a general discussion forum. Sure, most of us violate that from time to time, but it's a good point. Speculation should be saved for fan forums like Outpost Gallifrey (well, I wonder if many of those people are actually fans, given the amount of sniping that appears every week, but I digress...).

Notwithstanding all that, I also take RobbieG's point that he was simply using speculation to demonstrate how much speculating could actually be done, and hence why it shouldn't be included in the main article. --DudeGalea 06:45, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Tanelorn appears in several of Michael Moorcock's parallel universes - are there any more examples of such multiples?

Jackiespeel 22:27, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

The Doctor never does get his psychic paper back, does he?

Wonder if they wrote it out on purpose, the same way they tired to write out the sonic screwdriver way back when. Was kind of taking the fun out of it if all he has to do is flash a blank bit of paper and people suddenly accept that he's who he says he is--71.247.243.152 04:28, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Didn't they also "write out" Rose's superphone at one stage ;) He'll probably either magically have it back or just make a new one. I think it's more useful for the production team to have around than to be completely without it- they could always have someone challenge his stated identity (like in the Long Game) if they don't want it to be a quick-fix, but then it's still there if they need it. --86.144.60.11 09:25, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

He could easily have a spare in the TARDIS. Alternatively, they could switch to a different magic gizmo next year (though the sonic screwdriver will likely remain) or just have him get along without it, to have an additional change from the Rose years. He got along fine without it for 26 years (900 Time Lord spans). TransUtopian 16:30, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

It's in rose's stolen lab coat, which she threw on the sphere room floor, or alternitivly in Singh's coat. Either way, he probebly noticed it was gone when he checked his coat, and went back for it. 84.69.2.42 21:37, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Jack had psychic paper when we first saw him, so it's not a unique artefact. 84.69.0.192 19:12, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

There's probably a whole ream of it in the TARDIS. smurrayinchester^{(User), (Talk)} 20:16, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Parallel Earth

Yes, yes, speculation isn't appropriate on wikipedia talk pages, and so on - but is it worth noting the previous appearance of a parallel earth in Inferno? The parallel earth in Inferno shows that Britain is technologically advanced compared to "our" world, and that Britain is a republic. Might Peteworld be a version of the Inferno earth in which they don't destroy the universe?

Incidentally, Torchwood probably exists in both worlds because the point of divergence is later than the creation of Torchwood. So, technically, the Doctor that exists in Peteworld is the SAME Doctor because the worlds were different AFTER that time rather than before. Matthew Platts 18:58, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

That would mean there are two doctors, since from at every point of divergence those who led alternate time lines exist independently in the other universe.

But back to whether such talk is appropriate, they are for matters of the trivia section; if there is a logical fallacy in the story, it can be added as a fact of contradiction to the story. Another example which is arguable is the Dårlig Ulv Stranden / "Bad Wolf Bay" appearing in the alternate universe. It brings the question of how far the time matrix of the TARDIS; which wasn't created to travel between alternate universes, could have given Rose the power from staring into its 'heart' the ability to make sure a name appears in an alternate universe; or rather could this have been simply a coincedence unconnected to her power, maybe a higher fate? or maybe it was before the point of divergence at when Rose had the power of the "vortex running through her head" and could 'see every potential outcome', so was able to add that in this universe which altered the other; BUT the point of divergence for that particular alternate universe was BEFORE 'the parting of ways'. Its a factor of discontinuity and is perfectly viable for discussion on a talk page about an episode at wikipedia, because one never knows what might been found as viable to add to the article in that respect. 67.5.147.136 19:20, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Mentioning there was a parallel Earth also in Inferno would probably be okay for the Trivia section. Are there other instances? TransUtopian 01:01, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I seem to recall a rumor somewhere that Billie Piper wanted to play a female version of the doctor, and that RTD had plans to bring her back to who in the distant future, maybe she'll become that universes' equivalent of the doctor, and find some sort of means to travel in time (something found by alternate Torchwood maybe?) and in some way or another inspire the creation of alternate Torchwood the same way the doctor did in (our?) universe, maybe a crossover with the new Torchwood series? but that's idle speculation--71.247.243.152 19:47, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I remember a report mentioning Billie's desire to play the Doctor or see a female Doctor too, but I don't remember where. That's bugging me now. :) TransUtopian 01:01, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

The report was on the Newsround website. It is not on there anymore though.

Goodbye Scene Accent

Is it my imagination or does David Tennant break into his natural accent during the goodbye scene? Matthew Platts 20:14, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Parallel Universes

The Doctor says that they cannot meet again - for the second time.

Three people (Rose, Jackie and Mickey) from our-universe reside in parallel universe, and the Cybermen and others crossed in the reverse direction - so there is a possibility of it happening again.

Alternatively they end up in a third parallel universe and avoid any paradoxes...

Jackiespeel 22:32, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't this belong on Outpost Gallifrey rather than wikipedia??? :-) quercus robur 22:37, 14 July 2006 (UTC)