Talk:Tool (band)

Because of their length, the previous discussions on this page have been archived. If further archiving is needed, see Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.

Previous discussions:

• Archive 1 (closed issues, 06/2005 and earlier):
• Archive 2 (closed issues, 05/2006 and earlier):
• Archive 3 (next to start):

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Open Tasks

Live guests

Can anyone confirm that Adrian Belew or any of the other KC members have joined Tool on stage? Also, can anyone think of AND CONFIRM anyone not already listed?

Dale from the Melvins definitely has, and I'm pretty sure some one of the guys from KC has at some point. Can't say when though. I reckon John Stanier from Tomahawk has joined them too. hellboy 05:35, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Mike Patton from Tomahawk joined the band for one of the very few live performances of Ticks and Leeches in Fort Lauderdale, FL. They were also joined by the drummer from Tricky a few times for Triad. Buzz from the Melvins played with them several times on the Ænima tour.

Another one: Zack de la Rocha (sp?) from Rage Against the Machine performed the Rollins spoken bit in "Bottom" at the Lollapalooza '93 second stage show somewhere in the Detroit area. I was there (it was very intensely performed, btw, as you might expect). He may have done it at other shows as well.

Mike Bordin (Faith No More and Ozzy) played some kind of percussion during Triad when I saw them at Ozzfest UK in 2002. I won't add it into the article yet though. I'll let someone more experienced do it ;-) Aenimiac 15:31, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

A few corrections/clarifications/updates:

• Dale Crover joined the band on-stage for Triad regularly, including the four southeast US shows The Melvins played w/ Tool in October 2001. Guest drummers were regular for Triad during that tour.
• Aloke Dutta is featured on Pushit (live) as heard on Salival. This was not during the '98 "mini tour" and is documented (check the Salival liner notes).
• Thomas Haake (Messhugah) played rototoms during Triad (I was there). Another member of the band played a synth alongside Adam Jones during the same song.
• Layne Stanley joined Tool in Hawaii (15 Aug 2003), not Hollywood.
• Statik recorded synth parts for Lateralus and is recognized in the "liner notes".
• Osseus Labyrint performed during Tool's set in 1999 at Coachella and during the late 2001 US tour.

I'm sure there's more ... I'll add them here as I think of them. I'll leave it to whoever is at the helm to implement the updates. Dimwell 18:01, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your contribution! Please excuse this late response.. one of us frequent editors will probably get to it this week. Do you know by any chance sources regarding these appearences? I am a little concerned regarding verifiability.. As soon as I incorporate your corrections I'll try to find some my own. Sadly I didn't have the time to do so yet, since I dedicated most of my time recently to other sections.. --Johnnyw 01:28, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Sources? Aside from copies of those shows in my CD collection? Check the Tool trading community (esp. collectiveunconscious.org and distortiononline.com) for source info. --Dimwell 23:08, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Well I assume dropping by your place and looking the guests up in your cd collection would fall under original research ;) but the sites will probably do just fine, thx. To be honest, I've already looked them up myself but refrained from comparing the lists, since I couldn't find a simple list of guest appearences and did not have the time to look through every single concert. I was kinda tangled up in saving the 10,000 days article, swatting dubious images w/o copyright tags like flies.. --Johnnyw 12:37, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I just remembered another ... Justin Chancellor played on-stage with Tool (during Sober and Bottom) on July 21, 1994. This was more than a year before Paul left Tool and Justin left Peach to join Tool. Dimwell 17:31, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Proposal: Overview and Visual art

Hi folks, I have a proposal to make. I would like to create a new section in the article, an "overview", preceeding the history section. This overview could merge a bit of the content of other sections, maybe shorten the intro just a bit. Here are some specific thoughts on this:

• some of the collaborations with other artists are quite significant and might be interesting to the casual reader who does not want work over the entire article, e.g. the songs recorded with RATM, Carey's tabla work - perfect info summarized in an overview,
• some of the descriptions on the sound of Tool in the intro are redundant, since we have 4-5, maybe we could move the beginning of the 2nd paragraph (part of the sound description and the hint to the arguments about their genre) to the overview and rewrite it a bit to elaborate a tiny bit more on Tool's visual art, which would lead me to my second suggestion:
• the overview could finally sport a summary about Tool's visual art, which is quite a subject. In order to prevent the article from growing ever larger, it would sport a link to an article dedicated to the subject. We have been putting this off for some time now, sadly.

I've come up with a very rough proposal.. after reading Wikipedia:Subpages, I decided to create subpage to use as a place for drafting and working on the article until it is ready: Talk:Tool (band)/Overview Of course, this would require your support, help and initiative. I am looking forward for a lively discussion on this matter.. what do you think? --Johnnyw 19:19, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

A "puzzle" or "interpretation" section or page

Could this page be improved with a section about their mysterious puzzles and/or cryptic lyric interpretations?

Or possibly another page entirely devote to this?

Or perhaps this is best left to "outside of wikipedia"

I'm just brainstorming here.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Diogenes Blinks (talk • contribs) .

I presume you're talking about the 10,000 Day's puzzle reference. If that's the case, considering it's so vague, I don't see any reason why it should be included in Wikipedia hellboy 03:44, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. Diogenes Blinks 15:13, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Salival Rerelease?

Recently I was browsing the hmv UK website (http://www.hmv.co.uk/hmvweb/displayProductDetails.do?ctx=280;-1;-1;-1&sku=508767) and found Salival for £8.99. I ordered it on Monday 15th May, since then the price has gone up. I'm confused by it being on especially as it's release date is 15th June 2006. I waiting for the delivery, it should come tomorrow. I've got the email reciept and the money has gone from my account but still i'm thinking that it isn't an original or thery're going to send me some other CD. Does anyone know if it is still avaliable or if it has been rereleased? advo 09:23, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know, it's a limited release w/o any chance of rerelease. The item you linked above also states "Availability: sorry this title is deleted".. it's probably a mistake. Also, IF you receive anything other then a copy, it will probably just the CD, not the VHS or DVD version which included all the music videos up to that date. Nevertheless, it's a good buy, I enjoyed Salival very much =) --Johnnyw 14:57, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Popular songs

Is "Die Eier Von Satan" actually a popular Tool song? Methinks "Parabola" would be a better choice for the list, especially since "Eier" isn't really a "song." King Bee 14:54, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

You are certainly right. Problem is, that there is no article for "Parabola (song)". It'd be welcome if you created the article, and maybe merged Parabola (DVD) into the new article, just like it has been done with Schism (song) and Schism (DVD)... --Johnnyw 00:59, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Good call. I think I'll do that, as soon as I have a couple of hours free. Thanks for the suggestion. I would like to know, however, how to change the "popular song" thing at the bottom of the page. I'm not exactly sure what's going on there. King Bee 12:40, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh, that's an easy one: Template:Toolband is a template that can be included in Tool-related articles and centrally modified. See Wikipedia:Template namespace for further information. This means, that after creating the article, you just have to edit the Toolband-template like you'd edit an article and replace "Die Eier von Satan" with "Parabola" (using normal wiki-syntax for links etc.) - this change will appear everywhere where the toolband-template is included. --Johnnyw 14:53, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Sweet! Thanks for the info and the help. King Bee 12:59, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

You're very welcome. =) --Johnnyw 15:40, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Organization of Subjects

It's a rather small thing, but shouldn't "Current" be below "History"? It just seems a bit more logical to me...-- Sanctus

If you had a chronological order in mind, you are certainly right, but imho the article benefits a lot from the current structure. It is safe to assume that the majority of readers are interested in a general overview and then the current status of the band. To delve into the entire band history is obiously sth that 1st timers might not do, in contrast to readers familier with the band. This structural change - removing the very latest info from the history section and fusing it into it's own - resolved some revert-issues and caused the history section to be a lot more stable than it used to be - just liked it should be. This may be in part due to the clear distinction between more transient information and well researched facts.--Johnnyw 15:38, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I see. I figured there must of been a reason it was first. Glad I asked before I just went off and changed it!-- Sanctus

Singular Plural

Think of it this way: in this context, "Tool" is a pronoun that takes the place of "Maynard James Keenan, Danny Carey, Justin Chancellor, and Adam Jones". Now, you would never, ever say "Maynard James Keenan, Danny Carey, Justin Chancellor, and Adam Jones is a progressive rock band," would you? Also, referring to American_and_British_English_differences#Singular_and_plural_for_nouns shows that "are" is correct in both British and American English - surely it is preferable to be consistent to a greater number of readers? Furthermore, it is consistent with later using phrases such as "Their overall sound" and "Their music". Turkeyphan^t 13:09, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

You can also think of it as Tool being a single entity, not as a pronoun that takes the place of the four men in the band. I think it is more common to consider bands as solitary entities. Although, wikipedia seems split on the idea (Metallica's page has the singular verb, Pearl Jam's page has the plural). King Bee 14:25, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes but that does not agree with the next part of the article that says things like "Their overall sound", etc. In my view, you have to be consistent throughout an article and nobody would say "Its (Tool's) overall sound". Also, plural forms shoul always be used when the group is considered as a collection of people doing personal things such as a band. Turkeyphan^t 14:52, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I think there is a change in context, and that's why we switch from singular to plural. First, we speak of the band, the single entity. Shortly thereafter, we introduce the band members. After that moment, we always use the plural. See here:

Tool is an American rock band, formed in 1990 in Los Angeles, California, when drummer Danny Carey joined the rehearsal of his neighbor, singer Maynard James Keenan, and guitarist Adam Jones and bassist Paul d'Amour, when nobody else would show up. His decision proved to be a stroke of luck when the band turned out to become a highly successful rock act, "introducing dark, vaguely underground metal to the preening pretentiousness of art rock"[1] — most notably due to their influential sophomore effort, Ænima (1996). [...] --Johnnyw talk 00:47, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

It's poor writing and poor form. The plural form is correct in both British English and American English while the singular is deemed incorrect by many readers. Turkeyphan^t 03:01, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

This is a kind of writing style up with which we shall not put! =) King Bee 13:12, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I am not a native English speaker, and since I acquired most of my knowledge of the English language in the United States, I might have made mistake when I was writing the text. After reading the link provided above, it looks as if you are right. Surely, I will not insist on using the singular. --Johnnyw talk 21:58, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

No, the plural form is chiefly a British way of speaking and writing. In American English it is generally accepted to use the singular form for nouns, especially when the noun isn't pluralized as is the case for "Tool". One wouldn't customarily say or write "The Company are going bankrupted", would they? Likewise, one would generally never write "The band are currently on tour". The reason for the inconsistency in the rest of the article is again a matter of American vernacular. If it is obvious that "Tool" (or any other noun) implies singularity then one doesn't use the word "it". Wisdom89 22:33, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

The thing is both ways are acceptable in American English (although the singular is arguably more popular). However, only the plural is correct in British English. Therefore, my argument is that the plural should be used to make it easier to comprehend by all readers. Turkeyphan^t 14:37, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

etymology: removed paragraph

I removed this paragraph, since it is quite speculative. --Johnnyw talk 19:09, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

The simple name "Tool" may also reflect the band's desire to express a lyrical message that, like a mechanical tool, is free of coercive qualities in itself, but, depending on the individual who makes use of it, can take on a variety of purposes and meanings. Tool's lyrics are often very general so as to allow for such multiple interpretations, and therefore the band members cannot always be easily pinpointed as adherents to specific political or religious agendas based on their lyrics. In an interview, Maynard has made claims that support this notion. "Information, itself, is pure. Take a knife, for example. You can use it to cut up vegetables, meat, butter your bread, etc. Or you can use it as a weapon. The way in which information exists in its many forms leaves for us the decision as to how it is we wish to use it. Information itself has a certain purity. Humans have intentionality. It's humans who decide how it is they wish to behave. Information and technology are pure". [5]

Tool in Blender

In the new Blender I noticed that Tool is "stressed over their Wikipedia article"... which is actually sad and pathetic to say the least for us pedians. The blip says as follows:

"The band's Wikipedia page states that Keenan met Tool guitarist Adam Jones through Rage Against the Machine shredder Tom Morello. 'That is untrue,' says Jones, who went to high school with Morello in Libertyville, Illinois. 'We played together in a band called the Electric Sheep. We were terrible.'"

This isn't really my article, and I don't know how anybody wants to put it, so I'll leave it up to the everybody else. willsy 19:19 July 12th 2006.

Well to put it bluntly, if Adam, Danny, Justin or Maynard have a problem with the article then, like all of us, they could feel free to make the changes! hellboy 00:35, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

And to be honest, I don't know where they got that info from?! The article reads "It was Tom Morello, a high school friend of Jones, who introduced Carey to the band in 1990 and eventually helped the formation of Tool." .. Which is basically exactly what Jones said... Probably a mistake done by Blender then, sharp to find "another" error in WP? Just my 2 cents.. May I ask the exact source of that statement? Maybe there is a chance to clarify this. --Johnnyw talk 00:45, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

The August 2006 issue with Owen Wilson on the front, page 79 and number 4. This could've been written a while back, because I do remember the article saying what they're talking about. Also... I think it's an unwritten law (maybe it is written... don't know) that people can't fix their own articles *shrugs*. willsy 19:59 July 12th 2006.

I scoured a little bit through the article history up to October of last year - if it ever said s.th., it must have been a loooong time ago. So what the hell. --Johnnyw talk 09:36, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Thought I'd say something about it, sorry for the stress since it's changed. willsy 14:38 July 13th 2006.

No need to apologize. Thanks for pointing it out, man. Too bad the magazine didn't even bother to do research.--Johnnyw talk 00:12, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Hehe, :-D, yeah, Blender really is a crappy magazine... glad I get it for free. willsy 13:54 July 15th 2006.