Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Medicine

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Merged Archive WikiProject Preclinical medicine: 1 Merged Archive WikiProject Clinical medicine: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 WikiProject Medicine Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160, 161, 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169, 170, 171, 172

Recent changes in WP:Medicine

Articles and their talkpages:

• In all Medicine articles (not talks)
• In articles with Top-, High-importance
• In articles with Mid-importance
• In articles with Low-importance
• In pages with NA, ???=unknown importance
• In the 1000 most popular articles (source)

Not mainspace:

• In all non-articles
• In all templates
• In Medicine navigation templates

Top	High	Mid	Low	NA	???	Total
100	1,070	11,565	38,959	20,712	1,290	73,696

List overview · Lists updated: 2015-07-15 · This box:

New introduction for South Beach Diet

Hello again, all. I have been working on making updates to the 'South Beach Diet article along with several regular editors of this WikiProject. It has been an ongoing process since August, with many lengthy discussions on the Talk page. I believe we've made progress, but there are still several outstanding issues, including updating the introduction paragraph. I just proposed new text which addresses the critiques made of my last draft and I am hoping to find editors here to review it. I should note that I do not make direct edits myself as I have a financial COI, and instead ask other editors to provide feedback on my proposed changes and make any edits as they see fit, or offer counter suggestions. Thanks in advance, WWB Too (Talk · COI) 02:55, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Help with starting new Wikiproject

I am trying to get this assess table to work Wikipedia:WikiProject_Sanitation#How_to_help. Does anyone know how to fix it? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:04, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Have you tagged any articles yet? WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:32, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes a few including pit toilet Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:43, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm wondering if the problem is your cat names: you have Category:C-Class sanitation articles, and it expects Category:C-Class Sanitation articles. (Cats can be moved now, or the template docs tell you how to specify a "non-standard" cat name.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:43, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Okay have moved them. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 10:55, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks has worked. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 11:07, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Might want to look around and sub cats. Many bear on water management, water disinfection, etc. LeadSongDog come howl! 05:54, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Monkey Christmas everyone!

...including the great emergency response team :)) 109.158.8.201 (talk) 12:33, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Wow!--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 19:15, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Further comments about sourcing and paraphasing

here if people have a moment. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:09, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Caps

How do we capitalize a title like this Gleason Grading System?Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:47, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Gleason grading system, per PMID 2458582, etc 109.158.8.201 (talk) 02:04, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Done Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:44, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Depictions of the Black Death

Hello everyone,

I'm looking for some help making sure that this image is used correctly across various Wikipedias. An academic article in The Medieval Globe has pointed out that the image has often been used to illustrate the Bubonic Plague (the Black Death), but that in fact it represents leprosy.

As things currently stand, User:Rmhermen has very helpfully removed the image from the English Wikipedia, and a few other languages. However, even excluding use in user boxes (en.wp) and as decoration in categories (fr.wp), the file has pretty wide usage in other languages. Is there anyone who would be able to help with one of the languages where the image is still used? Replacing the image is simple enough, but explaining why if someone objects (or leaving a short explanation on the relevant talk pages) would make the changes more likely to stick.

Because it helps to have an alternative image to make sure the Omne Bonum illustration isn't reintroducing by a well-meaning editor, here is one. I've been in touch with one of the authors of the paper and depictions of the Black Death online aren't easy to come by.

The article explaining the misinterpretations is available as an open access PDF here. Page 312 is particularly worth a read. The great thing about the article being open access is that we can see it and act on it quickly. Because Wikipedia is the first port of call for many people, it's important we do our best for our readers. Any help replacing this image would be very much appreciated. Nev1 (talk) 00:19, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Looks like it has been cleaned up. Drop us a note if you need further comments. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:58, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

How fascinating. I see the image is an illuminated initial letter from a medieval encyclopedia article. I propose that Wikipedia should adopt this practice and that medical articles could be used to set a good example. Thincat (talk) 11:19, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Caffeine used to treat asthma

Discussion here Talk:Caffeine#Asthma Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 08:46, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Radiation from smart meters

Editors might wish to use material from this report.

• Self-reporting of symptom development from exposure to radiofrequency fields of wireless smart meters in Victoria, Australia: a case series - PubMed - NCBI (November 2014)

—Wavelength (talk) 02:15, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

At the risk of sounding boring, a case series is a (very) primary source, and certainly not medrs. (Thank you though for indirectly pointing out the need for some tlc on the Case series page.) Cheers, 109.158.8.201 (talk) 10:45, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Dr. Rana

Dear medical experts: I have been looking for references to improve this old AfC draft about a medical specialist, but without much luck. Maybe I don't know where to look. Is this a notable person? —Anne Delong (talk) 04:46, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

• I doubt it. His h-index is only 5 according to Google Scholar, and while he is the editor in chief of the Journal of Parkinsonism and Restless Legs Syndrome, this journal doesn't appear to be "major" enough to meet WP:PROF. Everymorning talk 00:46, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Everymorning. It has now been deleted as a stale draft. —Anne Delong (talk) 02:59, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Further comment on WP:Wikicredit

Is requested here [1] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 09:12, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

This is about Wikipedia:Wikicredit#Byline_changes. Blue Rasberry (talk) 17:06, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Pharmacological torture

Seeking input to the discussion on the article talk page for Pharmacological torture. In particular,

1. Whether reliable sources support characterizing the administration of the antimalarial drug mefloquine to prisoners from malaria endemic countries at normal therapeutic doses, but without prior testing for infection, as a form of torture

2. Whether MEDRS-compliant sourcing would be needed for such a characterization.

In passing I'd like to note the Mefloquine article may not be a particularly reliable source for information about the drug. I've noted that in at least once place that a source document has been misquoted in a way that significantly changes the meaning of the quote. So the entire article probably needs to be checked to ensure that the statements actually reflect what is in the source (sigh).

Thanks Formerly 98 (talk) 15:33, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

From what I hear, treating symptomatic people for malaria, in malaria-endemic countries, without testing for infection is called "normal practice". The fact that people take anti-malarials when they actually have (for example) influenza is one of the reasons that anti-malarials are losing efficacy. "Treating prisoners exactly like non-prisoners" (in this case, treating probable but unconfirmed malaria without testing for the presence of the malaria parasite) is not normally considered any kind of problem, much less torture. (Refusing to allow a prisoner to refuse consent for normal medical treatment would be a violation of medical ethics, but still not "torture".)

You don't need a MEDRS-style source for this label. "We call this torture" is not biomedical information. It is socio-legal information. You would want a really good source to prove that this is WP:DUE (i.e., that more than one person/activist organization claims that this is torture), and unless the view is widely held (which I doubt), you will need to use WP:INTEXT attribution to indicate who holds this position. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:30, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Bauer, the hyoscine-pentothal will make you talk! JFW | T@lk 22:13, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

JFW what are you talking about? Mbcap (talk) 16:40, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

Mbcap Cultural reference. From 24 (TV series). JFW | T@lk 20:44, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

Mechanisms (or biology) of disease?

I've drafted a MEDMOS proposal (permalink) regarding one of our section headings. I realize that the timing of this proposal may seem a bit perverse following the recent heading change. I'd just like to reassure everyone here that I have no particular axe to grind and I'm not trying to "push through" anything. I just feel that terminological appropriateness is relevant to the encyclopedia, and needn't necessarily conflict with accessibility considerations. 109.158.8.201 (talk) 12:30, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

"biological mechanisms"[2] ?--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 13:19, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

Pathophysiology is the only correct term for this. I know we would like to simplify technical terms for readers, but this cannot be done at the expense of factual accuracy. -A1candidate (talk)

Sure, appropriate use of terminology is important (imo, at least...). But so is effective communication with our general readership, including accessibility considerations. If we scare off certain highly relevant categories of reader (eg patients and those close to them), then in some ways we hinder rather than help provide reliable information freely to all. Research is being conducted by HenryScow and others on what members of the general public actually do when they come to "read" these pages. I can't help wondering to what extent lay readers actually get to or get our information on disease mechanisms (even the admirably succinct Lung cancer section). Could there be a rationale for directing interested readers to specific sub-pages along with carefully crafted pages containing lay-friendly explanations of more general topics such as carcinogenesis (without immediately invoking a "blebbishield" level of detail), while providing on the parent page only information that is reasonably^[?] digestible to a sizable portion at least of the lay reading public? Perhaps such an approach (per WP:SUMMARY) might ultimately also facilitate encyclopedic expansion of non-clinical content? 109.158.8.201 (talk) 12:32, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

This section should also include pathogenesis. A widely understood term that encompasses both pathogenesis (molecular) and pathophysiology (cellular) is mechanism. Boghog (talk) 14:02, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

To combine two of these responses: The "correct term" depends on the content of the section. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:46, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

WAID, I agree with that, but I'm not sure all the FA folk (for instance) do. How prescriptive is MEDMOS intended to be? For some, it seems, very. Is that just their interpretation of the processes? Or is that how we're really *supposed* to operate here? 109.158.8.201 (talk) 17:16, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

I agree that there are sections that should be simplified to aid readabiliy. Taking Lung cancer#Pathogenesis as an example (since you've mentioned this), it is possible to summarize and simplify the section in this manner:

Just like many other cancers, lung cancer is often caused by long-term exposure to carcinogens that result in DNA sequence changes. Some of these mutations may lead to the activation of tumor promoting oncogenes such as K-ras and the overexpression of epidermal growth factor receptors (EGFR). Both processes are associated with a significant percentage of certain types of lung cancers. For example, K-ras mutations are present in 10–30% of all lung adenocarcinomas. However, epigenetic changes are also known to play a key role as they affect gene expression and may lead to inactivation of some tumor suppressor genes such as p53 and RB 1.

As you can see, it's not difficult to summarize the text into a single paragraph. I believe the above paragraph could be well-understood by any reader with a sufficient amount of basic education. The rest of the information should be moved to a seperate article ("Pathology of lung cancer"). The actual difficulty lies in finding trained medical experts to do the work. -A1candidate (talk) 14:25, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

I fully concur with A1candidate's general strategy. At the same time, I suspect the text may still (at first reading at least) be largely impenetrable to most of the members of the general public who consult Wikipedia – though hopefully they'll find that other parts of the page assume less background knowledge. Would it be well-understood by the majority of those readers who specifically want to find out something about the biology of the process? I just don't know... And what would we consider to be "a *sufficient* amount of basic education"? Imo, that would be the level of background knowledge possessed by those readers who are interested in finding out about these matters (per WP:AUDIENCE, I think). (@Axl: I selected the page because of its merits.) 109.158.8.201 (talk) 17:04, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Of course I also agree about the human resources issue and the need to mentor rather than discourage potential good new contributors – though valid medical writers/editors don't necessarily have to be *experts* in anything in particular. 109.158.8.201 (talk) 17:42, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Since 109.158.8.201 has pinged me and A1candidate has commented on the section in "Lung cancer", I shall respond.

Until six months ago, the "Pathogenesis" section was rather basic. (The old version is here.) In July 2014, Wiki CRUK John posted an external review. One of the comments was "Pathogenesis needs more explaining". On that basis, I expanded the section to its current size. Axl ¤ [Talk] 00:15, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Infobox Templates is Missing a Template

Hi, I think that infobox templates should include one for Cosmetic Procedures. This is for procedures such as male circumcision and plastic surgery. Many pediatric organizations in the world think that male circumcision has no medical benefit, so the procedure (in these regions ) would be primarily cosmetic or religious. I think that cosmetic would be the best word here.

I work primarily on the male circumcision page. Based on the information I have obtained I have learned that this procedure has varying medical benefit dependent on which country you are observing. For some nations it does have a benefit, for others it is insignificant. It would help if we had an infobox for cosmetic on the infoboxes page. This would better help represent the procedure on the page for male circumcision. I also think that having a cosmetic infobox would help the overall medical literature on Wikipedia. There are medical practices, such as plastic surgery, that are performed by medical professionals for primarily cosmetic reasons.

JohnP 19:20, 28 December 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by JohnPRsrcher (talk • contribs)

JohnPRsrcher We should use the infobox for surgical procedures without giving the suggestion that it is cosmetic or therapeutic. Infoboxes are meant to be WP:NPOV, and your suggestion runs the real risk of getting a whopping edit war over an infobox. JFW | T@lk 20:46, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

Yeah. But this is neutral, because many circumcisions would be classified as cosmetic by country's major pediatric organization's policy guidelines, while others are therapeutic in the case of medical interventions or if the country finds circumcision to be a cost effective intervention to prevent certain diseases. This is supported by the policy statements regarding circumcision from most of the world's organizations. In the US, neonatal circumcision may still be defined as therapeutic because circumcision is a cost effective procedure for reducing some diseases; however, this is not the same in Canada, Australia, the Netherlands, or Britain. We need to have an infobox labeled cosmetic so that the procedure is labeled as both a cosmetic procedure and intervention. This is due to the fact that it can be either of these things in different cases.

This would be neutral since the policy guidelines in Australia, the Netherlands, Britain, and Canada have already labeled infant circumcision in the most cases as cosmetic; so the procedure is already both cosmetic and therapeutic and as a result we should label it as such.

JohnP 02:15, 29 December 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by JohnPRsrcher (talk • contribs)

JohnP, are you aware that readers don't see the name of the infobox? Calling it "Infobox cosmetic surgery" is just as invisible to them as calling it "Infobox stupid idea" or "Infobox 2409".

The more important problem is that we don't actually want to have two separate infoboxes that contain the same list of parameters. "Infobox something" and "Infobox copy of something because I don't like the name" is inefficient and causes maintenance problems. It's so widely agreed to be a bad idea that it is one of the very few grounds for speedy deletion of a template (WP:T3).

Finally, this has the potential to cause pointless drama and edit wars at the many articles about procedures that are used both for cosmetic and for non-cosmetic purposes. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:08, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

To the first argument. Yes I am aware that readers don't see the infobox, still it is important that we label the procedure by what it is classified as according to law. In many areas the law says that it is cosmetic, so shouldn't we also add a label to indicate that it is cosmetic?

In addition, I don't see any infoboxes on the page that would be interpreted as a copy of cosmetic. It's entirely individual. The only other infobox that is really related to it is intervention. This would make it never be deleted, and applicable to medical procedures that need it.

This does not have the potential to cause drama and edit wars. Once we have the infobox I will propose to add it to the circumcision page. The consensus of the other editors will determine if it is added or not.

In addition, it has one added benefit. Plastic surgery can be classified as a medical procedure with its own infobox.

JohnP 03:27, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

JohnPRsrcher I strongly suggest you do something more productive. Both myself and WhatamIdoing have told you that this is a guaranteed dispute. You have already been warned about edit warring on the circumcision page. People will disagree with you on this one.

I would also suggest that we close this thread now, because you are not likely to get support for your suggestion at all. JFW | T@lk 08:18, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

I second that, logic and objectivity dictates there is no reason to pursue this--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 11:16, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

"it is important that we label the procedure by what it is classified as according to law." — No. It is important that readable article content classify it according to the many views presented in reliable sources, not just the legal views. What happens in the infrastructure is unimportant.

If editors really want an infobox on that article (and they might not want one), then use whatever infobox you would use on articles about breast surgeries, which are also legally defined as both cosmetic and medically necessary, depending on the circumstances. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:55, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

I also see no point in adding an indication of 'cosmetic', whether in a new infobox or a field in an existing infobox. As JohnP said, the "procedure is already both cosmetic and therapeutic", therefore adding a yes/no indicator would be pointless and encourage edit warring.

If you think it is relevant to readers what countries consider it as cosmetic vs therapeutic, it may make sense to compile the data into a list of countries page. Mamyles (talk) 17:06, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

WikiCup 2015

Hi there; this is just a quick note to let you all know that the 2015 WikiCup will begin on January 1st. The WikiCup is an annual competition to encourage high-quality contributions to Wikipedia by adding a little friendly competition to editing. At the time of writing, more than fifty users have signed up to take part in the competition; interested parties, no matter their level of experience or their editing interests, are warmly invited to sign up. Questions are welcome on the WikiCup talk page. Thanks! Miyagawa (talk) 21:52, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

interesting read....ebola/west africa

[3]--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 00:30, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

PR firm writing an article about a doctor

I came across the article Mark S. Komrad, which appears to have been written by a PR firm, Stoosh PR (who were kind enough to identify themselves in their username, but haven't shown any other explicit acknowledgement of their status as paid editors). While they seem open to toning down the advert-sounding-ness of their original effort, the article could certainly benefit from some outside attention, so I thought I'd bring it up here. JesseW, the juggling janitor 06:10, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Jeez, if you're going to do COI editing at least be good at it. Those bare links are killing me. 0x0077BE ^{(talk · contrib)} 12:45, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes we need to clarify the status of paid editing. There are dozens of examples. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 12:50, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

I wonder if at some point there will be some analog to the Education projects for COI editors / PR firms. Given that the Education projects themselves tend to be horribly controversial, I imagine it'll be a hornet's nest, but my guess is that having COI editors organized and guided would be a massive improvement to them just sneaking around. You'll always have rogue PR firms and such, but if an avenue is already presented for interfacing with Wikipedia, I imagine most of them would take the path of least resistance and get on board. The tone issues are one thing, but these PR firms are similar to students in that they are given an incentive to produce a bunch of content, but not necessarily an incentive to learn how Wikipedia works. I'm sure a lot of these social media marketer types would want to put "Wikipedia COI Editing Workshop" on their CVs if such a thing were available, and it might at least create a class of stable editors who might produce quality content. 0x0077BE ^{(talk · contrib)} 13:47, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

The pattern is often one account per job. Many are making a fair amount of money. Their current processes appear to be working fairly well as the content ends up being accepted by Wikipedia most of the time and they end up getting paid.

When one is trying to write articles about non notable topics in a promotional fashion it is easier to do it "rogue". The students at least have no incentive to write in a promotional manner and thus I see them as less of a potential issue. The are also often happy to have support. Copyright violations can be addressed with a technical solution. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 14:06, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

0x0077BE, ...so the outcome would be Wikipedia institutionalizing promotion (for money) of individuals/groups and their services/products. Hmmm... 109.158.8.201 (talk) 15:21, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Donation of pathology images

Supporters of Wikimedia India just announced that The Department of Pathology at Calicut Medical College in Kerala has donated some images and uploaded them to Wikimedia Commons at Commons:Category:Images from Department of Pathology, Calicut Medical College. Interested persons may wish to add any of these images to Wikimedia articles.

This project was organized by a collaboration between that school, Wikimedia India, and the Centre for Internet and Society (India).

In the past few months the Wikimedia chapter in India, [Wikimedia India, has had some turnover in board governance. Its new leadership has members who are particularly interested in developing health content and I hope that more content is coming. Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:42, 30 December 2014 (UTC)