Talk:El Clásico

The famous match that ended 11-1, and the references we use

Hi, I've seen that "CarlosRojas77" writes as a proved facts some conversations that really don't have any reliable proof in his references.

At the same time, the references I show are based on the experiences of a Barcelona player who was present in the match, experiences written by an sports journalist who met him in march 2003.

CarlosRojas77 references are weak and shouldn't be treated as proved facts. Cid Campeador 3 20:48, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

There are four references, all of which are reliable. I trimmed non reliable references (which another editor had put in). I'm from the UK so I use references that I know for certain meet the criteria for reliability, hence I removed Mundo Deportivo which I don't know if it has any bias. Sid Lowe is one of the most reliable writers on the game, a Madrid based English journalist who dispels the myth of Franco being for one side or the other (partly why I removed the Franco image and material on him a Barcelona fan tried to put in the article. The 11-1 game just deals solely with the build up and the game, nothing else. Just as someone from Madrid such as yourself cannot censor reliable material on the game, nor can a Barcelona fan add in material on Franco which is clearly biased.Carlos Rojas77 (talk) 22:09, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Your references don't prove that the conversations you write happened. They shouldn't be here, or at least, they should be qualified as "claims". Cid Campeador3 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cid Campeador3 (talk • contribs) 21:21, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

You need to be specific with your issue. Do you think anything is unbalanced? The material is reliable, the sources are reliable..Independent. guardian, and Sid Lowe (who appears on Real Madrid Tv btw). He has only recorded a quotation from the last surviving player and that being the start of the rivalry. Go back over edit history and you will see the pro Barca stuff I have removed...the images of Franco, the nonsense one sided view of only Barcelona being penalised (Madrid president was also). Be specific with your issue because it certainly cannot be the references.Carlos Rojas77 (talk) 22:28, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

My source is "Diariogol.com", a website legaly registered as belonging to "EDICIONES DIGITALES DEL DEPORTE SL", a limited company registered in Spain, so Juan Carlos Pasamontes writings have the same value as Syd Lowe writings. I'm legitimate to continue writing the version with my valid reference as long as you write your version with your reference. If you want an agreement, I'm open to talk. Cid Campeador3 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cid Campeador3 (talk • contribs) 21:40, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

This whole section should be scratched as highly biased and untrue, or at least not easily proven correct. The references used are articles from 2 newspapers, one unsigned, and both draw from the same book verbatim written by a Jimmy Burns who in his blog described himself as : " When people ask me-the son of a Scot father and a Spanish mother who was born in Madrid-why I am a cule, I tell them because I became one in the mid 1970’s thank to Johan Cruyff and have remained one ever since because I love watching beautiful football and I count many Catalans among my Spanish friends. I will be looking forward to this Saturday’s Clasico with the hope that the Barca that Luis Enrique is crafting will demonstrate that it has recovered some of the poetry in … - See more at: http://www.jimmy-burns.com/category/blog/#sthash.7KO5YIKg.dpuf" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.65.61.80 (talk) 04:29, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

The user "Xeerow" commits vandalism

This user repeatedly edits the page to write that Barcelona has the most official wins with 107.

As he knows, that's a false information, but he still edits it repeatedly. Cid Campeador3

Protected edit request on 28 October 2014

Can you please remove the section about the '11-1' scoreline? As a Barcelona fan, I must admit the whole thing lacks credibitily, so for so that even UEFA and FIFA consider it a valid match in "official" circumstances. This just makes a mockery of our club and makes it look like we need excuses. Thanks 87.112.141.101 (talk) 15:48, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Not done: The page's protection level and/or your user rights have changed since this request was placed. You should now be able to edit the page yourself. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. --Redrose64 (talk) 11:13, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Verify reliability, neutrality and content of source

Editors, Cid Campeador3, a Madrid fan from Madrid, has used Dario Gol, and inserted its content into the 11-1 game. Few issues needed addressing. First off I'm from the UK, speak zero Spanish (username not my real name obviously), so I have no idea about the reliablility, neutrality and content of the following; http://www.diariogol.com/es/notices/2014/10/de-franco-el-madrid-el-barca-y-otras-mentiras-de-tv3-45026.php Spanish newspapers are notoriously biased toward various teams. Secondly this is an English wikipedia so predominantly Emglish speakers will use it, therefore an English source is preferred. The Guardian, Independent and non Spanish writers (Sid Lowe) are reliable, have no bias or slant toward any team, and meet WP:reliable source. The other issue is Cid Campeador being a Madrid fan will obviously have a Madrid slant (myself being a Liverpool fan I don't edit on Liverpool pages, bar reversing vandalism). Other edits have been made by Barcelona fans with their own slant, for instance an image of Franco and a background of Catalan oppression had been inserted into the same section, content I removed. I seek two things; neutrality and accuracy. Personally im against either Barcelona or Madrid fans editing this page as the edit history shows unbiased edits are a rarity. The talkpage should be used and before any contentious edits are permitted by either side.

This is the edit from Cid Campeador3 which he added to the Real Madrid 11-1 Barcelona section.

However, according to Spanish journalist and writer, Juan Carlos Pasamontes, the events were quite different: At the end of the first half, Barcelona players were angry with the hard-style of playing Real Madrid was using, and also with the aggressiveness of the home crowd. Those were the reasons which made Barcelona coach Juan José Nogués and all of his players to refuse to continue playing the match. Then, the Superior Chief of Police of Madrid appeared, identified himself, and told the coach: "You all go now out to the field. If you don't, we will take you all to the Police station". Josep Valle, Barcelona player during that season, denied in March 2003 that the Spanish security forces had obliged Barcelona to lose the match. Source; http://www.diariogol.com/es/notices/2014/10/de-franco-el-madrid-el-barca-y-otras-mentiras-de-tv3-45026.php

Issues with this are; this implies that it was just the "hard style" of Madrid players and the agressive home crowd that led to Barcelona being 8-0 down at half time. Likely? A team that wins 3-0 in the first game, and is 8-0 down at half time in the next...just down to hard style and crowd.noise? Really? If this was indeed the case, and was therefore a legitimate game, why then is the game not celebrated in Madrid and why does it barely get a mention in the history of Real Madrid?...yet it does feature prominently in Barcelonas history. Doesn't add up. All the English reliable sources tell a different story...Barcelona won the first game, they jeered and whistled the Madrid players, and the Madrid newspaper Ya reported at the time that Barcelona fans had "whistled at the Madrid players with the clear intention of attacking the representatives of Spain"... Franco (who was neither pro Real or Barca) took exception to this (Franco quelled all forms of public displays of emotion) and the return game in Madrid was where the infamous 11-1 occurred. So the reliability, neutrality and content of the source needs to be verified and then any further edits will be worked into the section.Carlos Rojas77 (talk) 21:09, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

You don't understand Spanish? Well, I understand Spanish and English, so I know what's in the link, you obviously don't. It's quite unbelievable that you delete my legitimate sources because you "don't understand" what's in there. Sorry, If you don't understand Spanish that doesn't make my references less legitimate. On the other hand, diariogol.com is an SPORTING NEWS website legitimately belonging to a CATALONIA-BASED (!) company named "EDICIONES DIGITALES DEL DEPORTE SL", a legally registered company dedicated to sports media. The source is legitimate, if you keep deleting legitamate references you are going to perpetuate the problem of Barcelona-biased redaction of this article. Cid Campeador3 GollumTreasure 21:28, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Not understanding Spanish is only one aspect, I'm requesting that reliability, neutrality and content of the source are met, and not by you obviously since you have posted it. I don't give two hoots what the history was, I only want accuracy. You, a Madrid fan, tried to remove perfectly valid reliable neutral sources before..you don't see this as breaking Wikipedia's neutral point of view? I've said it before, I don't believe any Madrid or Barcelona fan should be allowed to edit ths article, without gaining consensus on here first anyway. The bias of the two sets of fans is understandable...the rivalry is well documented. We're had Madrid fans try to censor material, and we've had Barcelona fans try to add in material that had nothing to do with the game. The edit history of this page is littered with back and forth squabbling.Carlos Rojas77 (talk) 22:09, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

I've been participating in the edition of this article for more than 6 years, I have a lot of experience on it. When I first came the redaction was completely biased against Real Madrid CF, even telling that "Ultras Sur hooligan group affected the image of Real Madrid CF as a right-wing club", when there was NO SPEAKING of "BOIXOS NOIS", a neo-nazi FC Barcelona hooligan group with A LOT MORE members, with more CRIMES COMMITED, and that have even KILLED people (unlike Ultras sur).

Calling catalans a "leftist people" was also the norm. A ridicolous joke, seeing that the autonomous elections of Catalonia have been usually win by the right-wing Catalan nationalisy party "Convergencia i Unio". These are only 2 examples, but there have been a lot more throughout the years, and many of them really untrue and insulting. On the other hand, I can participate in the edition of whatever page I want to, It's my right as a wikipedia user. And I insist, I have much more experience in this article than you. The source on this information I have written plenty of times is completely legitimate. It's an sport news site owned by "EDICIONES DIGITALES DEL DEPORTE SL", a limited media company based on Spain. Stop boycotting my contributions, please. Cid Campeador3GollumTreasure 23:49, 3 November 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cid Campeador3 (talk • contribs)

First off I'm not "boycotting" anything...User talk:Amortias in his response to you has echoed what I stated. The source must meet reliability, neutrality and it's content must be accurate, which the English sources have met. Spanish newspapers (unlike in the UK) are notoriously biased towards specific clubs and have a vested interest in them. As regards being able to edit what you like, a user that is too close to the subject (and in this case Madrid and Barcelona fans) can receive a topic ban. It is crystal clear from the edit history of this article that the two sets of fans have done nothing but constantly squabble back and forth. It's one of the most contentious, vandalised articles on this site. What you say about the Ultras, hooligans, left right wing club labels...etc....that can easily be cleared up in talk and consensus reached. The problem with this article is that the two sides have edited back and forth on the article and no agreement is ever reached. It should have been locked long ago. I don't care what the history of the two clubs are, only what is accurate. The best way of finally solving the issues in this highly contentious article (especially history) is to gain consensus on talk so that changes are as accurate as they possibly can be. Carlos Rojas77 (talk) 09:09, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

It's not helpful to the conflict you opening new sections in the Talk Page like this one when we have one section who already treats this only a bit up on your navigator window. You edit warred me nearly a year ago, and until you saw other people supporting my vision, you didn't step back from the war. You assure that your fan affiliations are far from this particular rivalry, and you use that as a weapon to treat weakening my stance. I don't hide I have fan-symphathy for Real Madrid. That doesn't make unfit to participate in any article in Wikipedia. It's my right to be able to contribute to this project. Personally, I think you behave like an hypocrite. Anyone who could see your stances in the past edit wars here, and your history of contributions in your personal talk page, can INMEDIATLY REALIZE you basically contribute on present and historical Barcelona players, seasons, and FC Barcelona-related themes. Cid Campeador3GollumTreasure 01:00, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

• You two are arguing past each other. No one should be here arguing whether or not the threats were made, but we can acknowledge that one side claims they were made and the other doesn't. Does the Spanish newspaper credibly claim that threats were not made? It does claim just that. Now I've tried to merge the two sides somewhat evenly and I ask you two to work around it if you'd like. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:09, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Now, my real concern. Is this a WP:FRINGE theory? Cid, what do the Spanish newspaper claim as their evidence? That article looks to me (I don't speak Spanish) like a single individual (in a documentary?) claims that he spoke to a player twenty years later who denied it. That's a very thin point to make and Carlos is right that it shouldn't be treated as equal claims. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:36, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Dont drag me into his bogus editing. Cid as for edit warring a year ago, given my first edit on here was 1 October 2014, not one bit surprised you have a history with others. You are openly biased and breach NPOV. Ricky, as I said on your talk page, it's not about a "middle ground" to appease us, it's about accuracy. So you know the veracity of that Spanish source? Its contents? Its reliability? I couldn't care less what took place at that game, I'm only interested in an accurate account. In terms of neutrality take a look at edit history... 08:32, 15 October 2014‎ Carlos Rojas77 (talk | contribs)‎ . . (39,115 bytes) (-786)‎ . . (All of this may be true (or not), and if is it needs to be referenced)...I REMOVED this very section that a Barcelona fan had installed. I only allowed it back in when it was properly referenced...and then on 08:19, 19 October 2014 I REMOVED that Franco image from the article a Barcelona fan installed (that you brought up in discussion). Next came Cid the openly biased Madrid fan who has tried to whitewash the controversy surrounding the game. I've been piggy In the middle of warring Madrid and Barclona fans and tried to maintain neutrality, and have also asked for help from four admins with very little forthcoming. It's been frustrating to say the least.Carlos Rojas77 (talk) 01:25, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

When you say "it's about accuracy," that's approaching the wrong side of the verifiable not truth policy. Cid has got a terrible edit history, I don't doubt any bias and he's been edit warring insanely and nine times out of ten I'd probably block him for a year and leave it be but I'm going to be very generous and still assume there's a possible neutral ground here. Now if he's just screwing around, and just reverts back to make a complete whitewash then he's going to be blocked for a long time and sent on his way. It's an article about two Spanish teams and our source is that a British newspapers reported that a Spanish newspaper made the whistling claims. We should be able to cut it down to something more direct for an event that happened 70 years ago. Even this source seems to a single piece by a single documentary filmmaker who claims that a player on the team denied it many decades later. It's a story about two Spanish teams during a controversial period in Spain, I think it's fair to look at Spanish papers even if they aren't the most reliable sources. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 02:00, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

I appreciate your input Ricky. Thanks for your time. I myself knew nothing about this game until 15 October 2014 (when I removed it for being poorly referenced)...It was only then i started reading up a bit on it. A Barcelona fan reinstalled it with references, and i then added in a line....Franco was neither pro Real or Barca....that's the neutrality that I'm seeking. I really don't know what went on during that game, but there's no question it is highly controversial. It's a game, as Sid Lowe states, barely gets mentioned in Madrid (it's been airbrushed out of their history) but does feature prominently in Barcelona.Carlos Rojas77 (talk) 02:16, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Interestingly enough, the pages for Real Madrid (a good article) and Barcelona (a featured article) have only a single sentence about both (and no mention of any questioning of it). The Barcelona page doesn't even mention the game in the section on the Clasico. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 02:25, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

That's interesting, not entirely sure why that is the case. As i said i wasnt aware of it previously myself. There is a section at the Barcelona museum, and Sid Lowe (genuinely one of the best journalists on the subject) states it figures far more prominently in Barcelona's history. I'd guess that anything that occurred in black and white doesn't get written about as much (I'm guilty of that one)...and more recent less significant events get covered more.Carlos Rojas77 (talk) 02:41, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Reliability of the source

Now trying again on the WP:FRINGE issue, this link is to a single Spanish writer and journalist who claims that he alone spoke to a single player who denied the exact quote (but did verify the police presence at least). From what I can tell, he seems to just be a random [http://www.diariogol.com/es/notices/2014/10/de-franco-el-madrid-el-barca-y-otras-mentiras-de-tv3-45026.php blogger) who only writes there. Otherwise the website is a random sports with no evidence of greater reliability. Does that seem like an accurate analysis? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 02:25, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

1960/61 European Cup

@Carlos Rojas77:, I feel like you are a reliable editor and seem pretty unbiased. Over the next few days, I am going to start a new section in the article about the 1960/61 European Cup (which is a very big part of the El Clasico rivaly). Please cross check references, and act as a general proof reader. Thanks. Imperial HRH2 (talk) 22:07, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

You won't need me to check for the validity of the references. Just avoid tabloids (red tops mainly) and blogs. Most published sources are fine, plus as I don't think the games were contentious (not that I'm aware of anyway) then using Marca, AS and other reliable Spanish sources are also fine.Carlos Rojas77 (talk) 22:13, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

My sources include the Guardian among other. And I might even go ahead and quote your favourite bloke Sid Lowe while I'm at it. By the way, we probably need to semi-protect this page to stop people messing with the 11-1 article.

Semi-protected edit request on 6 January 2015

head to head

real madrid wins

71+12+6+3='92'

222.112.86.66 (talk) 04:26, 6 January 2015 (UTC)