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Individual Counter-Strike maps

This discussion is about whether or not the individual counter-strike maps, as a class, should be wholly deleted. The individual merits or demerits of any single map is not relevant (that would require its own individual AfD). We are talking about the principle of having individual counter-strike maps... whether that principle is in violation of the WP:NOT policy, and whether any individual counter-strike map could be considered notable.

These articles are being considered for deletion because of the following policy:

Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information says under subpoint 8 that some things that should be deleted are

Instruction manuals - while Wikipedia has descriptions of people, places, and things, Wikipedia articles should not include instruction - advice ( legal, medical, or otherwise), suggestions, or contain "how-to"s. This includes tutorials, walk-throughs, instruction manuals, video game guides, and recipes. Note that this does not apply to the Wikipedia: namespace, where "how-to"s relevant to editing Wikipedia itself are appropriate, such as Wikipedia:How to draw a diagram with Dia. If you're interested in a how-to style manual, you may want to look at Wikihow or our sister project Wikibooks.

Additionally there are two supporting reasons, but not actual wikipedia policy by themselves (as stated clearly on their respectable pages):

These articles are not notable
These articles are fancruft

Many of these articles also had a discussion in the following AfDs:

Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/De_dust - May 19, 2006 (no consensus)
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/De chateau - June 28, 2006 (keep)
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Counter-Strike maps - July 10, 2006 (no consensus)

Please keep in mind that referring to debates that resulted in "no consensus" is not a sufficient reason for counting either a keep or delete vote. Neither does it count to refer to essays that are not actual policy (like WP:NN or WP:CRUFT). And in this peculiar instance, the nominator is actually opposed to deletion, so "per nom" votes would be ambiguous and also not countable. (You can find my reasoning next to my vote below.)

As nominator, I will be informing all users from the 3 aforementioned AfDs who participated with more than 2 edits, as they will likely be interested in this discussion.

Closing admin, if the result is to delete, take note that many of the articles have screenshots and images of the maps. Fair use may expire on these images. David Bergan 18:44, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Keep as nominator. I am one of the main contributors to the articles in question and the reason I am putting up this AfD is because we have been bombarded by AfD requests that have all resulted in "no consensus". But each of those discussions didn't directly face what I consider to be the main issue: whether or not the principle of individual CS maps is in violation of the policy. Other things were grouped in (like surfing) which muddled the main issue. And as the closing admin stated in the latest AfD, a vote of "no consensus" doesn't mean anything. I feel we need a consensus before I continue working on these articles, because either (A) a delete will be delete them and then I can't work on them or (B) a keep will make them immune from the threat of a future AfD. Since the discussion is still fresh in many people's minds, we should try to settle this once and for all.

So much for my reasons for nominating. Now for my reasons for keeping.

Regarding the "instruction manuals" violation, I maintain simply that these articles do not constitute an instruction manual. Take Cs italy as an example. There is nothing in that article that explains how to play the map. In fact in the game Counter-Strike there never is any one "right" way to play a map. The game is exclusively multiplayer, and because either team can do an infinite number of things to which their opponents have to adjust, there is no possible "walkthrough", or "how-to" beat a map. What the article has is (A) a description/history of the map, (B) an overhead view of the map, (C) some screenshots, (D) professional criticism against the map being balanced for both sides, (E) listing of some trivia regarding the map, including the translation of an opera song that can be heard in one section. None of those five constitute an instruction manual for anything. They are a simple description, much like what we find in the article about the Roman Colosseum... (A) description/history (B) blueprint (C) pictures (D) architectual criticism (E) trivia. The latter article is not an instruction manual, and neither is the former.

Regarding "not notable," I maintain that the article's notability can be plainly ascertained from a count of users daily playing on public servers (something like over 1 million), or the hits from a Google search (de_dust = over 1 million). In the last AfD an argument was presented that this sort of counting doesn't automatically justify an article as notable. He has an office by a street that probably sees more than a million cars a day, but that doesn't make an article on the street notable. My response is that yes an article about that street would be notable... if he put together something like the 5 sections I included in the last paragraph. If he merely described the road, then it might have AfD issues (although I haven't read any policy or guideline that would immediately sink it). But if in addition he researched the local newspaper archives and dug up a history of the road, described the points of its uniqueness, and uploaded a couple pics and map of its location, it would clearly be notable. "Not notable" violations are things like "shirts in David Bergan's closet"... not things that a large part of the public encounters.

Regarding "cruft," I have 2 arguments. First, that cruft is a highly subjective term. Any specialist understands that things related to his specialty are more important to him than the average person. It doesn't matter if your specialty is fishing or quantum physics, there are a certain realm of topics that will be very interesting to you, that wouldn't be interesting to my mom. To accuse another's specialty topic as being mere cruft, shows little more than the obvious fact that you don't have an appreciation for that specialty. Counter-strike, being a world-wide professional sport now, has its realm of specialty, just as baseball or football. My second objection comes from a plain reading of the cruft page. That page defines cruft as "of importance only to a small population of enthusiastic fans," which in the interest of these maps is simply untrue. So many people play these maps that it is impossible to consider it a "small population."

And finally for those considering a merge vote, I respond that there is simply too much content for one article to cover it all. Discussing the uniqueness, history, and trivia of 22 maps (and hopefully screenshots, and overhead maps) would make a convoluted mess. I hope I have persuaded you to keep. Kindly, David Bergan 18:44, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Each map should have an AfD. Some maps could be notable, while some may not. Computerjoe 's talk 18:51, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - As original research with no reliable secondary sources of information. Wickethewok 19:11, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

We're voting on the concept of "individual counter-strike maps, as a class." Sure some of the articles may be riddled with original research, but I don't see how the concept itself can be considered original reseach. Thus, an original research argument could work for an AfD of a specific article or two (or even, hypothetically, for every single one of these maps), but we would have to consider each article separately to do that. It just doesn't seem possible that the class itself could be considered original research. But maybe I'm missing something. Kindly, David Bergan 21:19, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, original research Dr Zak 19:12, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
~~Keep all~~ per nom. In the previous AfD I said to transwiki them to Wikibooks, but I'm led to believe that Wikibooks will not accept this sort of article. They should then remain in WP. I would recommend an individual article for the major maps such as the dust maps, and a general article for less well known maps, but as far as notability goes I have a hard time believing that these are not notable or that they are game guides. — Kaustuv Chaudhuri 19:16, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Transwiki to wikia:cs: I just discovered that there is a nice wikia on CS waiting to receive articles such as these with open arms. WP can easily point interested users to the relevant Wikia articles. — Kaustuv Chaudhuri 19:49, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep How many of these discussions do we have to have. The Keep has won for 4 or 5 consecutive times already, drop the arguement, I've presented all my points in the previous dicussions. --Rake 19:20, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, they were "no consesus", which is different from an outright "keep". Wickethewok 19:27, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Merge into a single article or list. While Counterstrike itself is quite notable, in all honesty, how much of that article information isn't just gameplay guide and padding? They are utterly non-notable individually, only as a group can they merit inclusion. --tjstrf 19:26, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep for all of them. I think David Bergan has made rational and reasonable arguments to keep the articles. Claims of original search, while inviting debate, are not valid. No new idea or assertion is being made by these articles, and it is common practice in video game articles (also articles for films, books, TV shows, etc.) to draw directly from the media to write the article. --Aguerriero (talk) 19:28, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There is a difference between taking text or speech directly from a source (such as a novel or TV interview) and the issues discussed here. Conducting original research in real life (like weighing a cubic centimeter of an element or writing about what you see from the top of the Eiffel Tower) is equivalent to original observations and original research in fictional universes ("A Terrorist can easily sit near the hostages.", "The snow provides a lot of resistance to the player's movement"). Wickethewok 19:40, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Merge per tjstrf Kalani ^[talk] 19:43, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per the previously cited bit of WP:NOT guidance concerning game guides. --cholmes75 ^{(chit chat)} 20:07, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
strong keep. These aren't (or needn't be) game guides, and some of these maps are very important. I'm quite surprised that people would consider deleting articles about topics with millions of google hits:

Wikipedia is not paper. To be cruft, it must appeal only to a "small population", which is not the case here. — brighterorange (talk) 20:08, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I'd also like to note that user:Dbergan seems to be attempting to swing, or at least influence, this vote by contacting "everyone who had more than 2 edits"[1] in these discussions. Which is not exactly normal procedure in AfD's, and frowned upon. --tjstrf 20:10, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

He has done this in good faith and has contacted people on both sides of the argument. While not the usual, I don't think he was trying to swing votes imo. Wickethewok 20:12, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I did this in accordance with the WP:AFD page. "It is generally considered civil to notify the good-faith creator and any main contributors of the article that you are nominating the article." My method of discerning "main contributors" was just to take anyone with 3 or more edits in the previous AfDs... since those people are the most likely to have the strongest feelings on the subject. Also, that method included users from both sides of the debate, so I couldn't be accused of vote stacking. David Bergan 21:03, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
David Bergan is doing this because in the most recent AfD debate for these maps, he notified the significant contributors, and was accused of vote stacking. It should be noted that significant contributors will naturally support the keeping of these articles, since it is their own work. --Varco 03:16, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Delete These maps have no encyclopedic value. Their only use is within the game. Without Counter-strike these maps are meaningless and useless which makes them game guides and nothing more. A clear violation of WP:NOT--Nick Y. 20:26, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Counterstrike is notable, individual maps are not. Artw 20:32, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Delete Wikipedia is not the place to go into the last detail of every game. with hundrets of articles per game. At best merge them all into the original article for the game. I see wikipedia as a place for a user that asks himself, 'what the hell is "counterstrike"?' looks it up, and feels satisfied for the knowledge. It isn't for users who ask themself "now playing on map 7, whats the best tactic after house 4, should I pick up weapon 3 or 4?", etc. Jestix 20:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Strong merge or delete. If there's no room in the existing CS maps article, make a new one. --Rory096 20:58, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Merge to a list. Barring that, I would support keeping only some. Such as dust. There's no way it is not notable - but some of the others surely are. -Goldom ‽‽‽ ⁂ 21:06, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Delete As per Jestix, Wikipedia is not a gameguide. A list of the maps on the main CS article is ok, but the maps do NOT need individual pages.--Bschott 21:10, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Strong delete all, possibly transwiki to Counter-Strike wiki on Wikia if they don't have it already. I can live with a list of counter-strike maps, but WP:NOT a game guide and the maps don't need individual pages here. BryanG^(talk) 21:16, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Move Transwiki - Per BryanG, Good idea! Looked it up, they don't, I agree to transwiki-move them to Counter-Strike wiki as this is an optimal solution for all! What would special-wikis be good for if such would would already be handeled into the finest detail in wikipedia. -Jestix 21:33, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep; The policy is "while Wikipedia has descriptions of people, places, and things, Wikipedia articles should not include instruction." These are plainly descriptions of levels, and NOT instruction on how to play them. People keep seeing "game guide" and reading it as "if it has to do with a game, it doesn't belong here!" That is not what the policy says. If you read the context of the policy, you see that it refers to a guide to how to play a game, which these are not. TomTheHand 21:26, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia has not an description for every people, place and thing. No I don't think that every level should be descriped in wikipedia. What comes next, an article for every level of prince of persia? An article about every map from [netrek], xpilot, nethack, not to mention articles for every place you find in games like Ultima Online and so on? -Jestix 21:34, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Also, note that in fact many of these articles do have strategies/general advice listed. Wickethewok 21:41, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The maps them selves by their very nature are useful in assisting sucessful gameplay. That is the reason why people are interested in looking at them. That makes them a game guide with or without descriptive text.--Nick Y. 21:54, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with this. I enjoyed reading about the history of the de_dust series and don't think that page assists gameplay at all. More importantly though, a useful reference should not be confused with a how-to (which is what a game guide is and what Wikipedia is not). For example, I frequently use Wikipedia as a reference while programming (e.g. recently DES and cyclic redundancy check), but that doesn't make those articles how-to articles. — brighterorange (talk) 22:54, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: A lot of these articles seem to be good candidates to merge somewhere, but I don't know the topic well enough to suggest exactly where. JYolkowski // talk 22:07, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to a list and move detail Transwiki - Merge the most important content into a list and also transwiki-move the full articles to Counter-Strike wiki. - Johntex\^talk 22:23, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Please note that the nominator is mistaken with respect to a "Keep" decision solving this once and for all. Nothing is permenant and keep decisions can be revisited, just as delete decisions can be. Johntex\^talk 22:23, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete all, game guide/cruft. Recury 22:44, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to a list and move detail Transwiki, per Johntex, or just Delete if that's too complicated. In addition to being inappropriate subject matter, the articles contain extensive original research, especially in the "Analysis" sections. -Will Beback 22:49, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Nominating these for deletion is clearly not a productive excercise. While I am opposed to the existance of these as individual articles, I beleive that they are useful redirects. Instead of participating here, I'd strongly urge people to contribute to the editorial process instead. Rather than mess around here, I am going to begin removing all biased and/or unsourced material from the maps. Then I am going to begin merging that material into Counter-Strike maps. Please do join me in doing so. - brenneman ^{L} 22:54, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't merging them getting a bit ahead, since that is what is contested here? --Varco 03:50, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Merge all into Counter-Strike, Counter-Strike maps, Custom Counter-Strike maps, etc. and delete—skirts OR; too derivative. Though I agree that there is too much information here for a complete merge, the information can and should be drastically cut down with all trivia removed. If this vote ends in no consensus, and given that this afd is specifically tailored to end the debate, I would think WP:POINT, and vote speedy keep in any future afd unless there were extenuating circumstances.--Fuhghettaboutit 23:07, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Someone has done a lot of work, but it does not belong here. This stuff is all effemeral parts of the game that may disappear with the next software update. That CS wiki sounds the proper place for it.--Michael Johnson 23:11, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to a list and transwiki as per Johntex. A list would cover the WP search results for "de_dust" et al and can direct those to Counter-Strike or the CS wiki. WP:NOT wins, as it would if level 1.2 from Super Mario Bros. had an article. -- Scientizzle 23:14, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Awww, and nobody wanted to contact me about this? I guess I'll have to invite myself. Delete again. Fine if some of the information goes into Counter-Strike maps or another major article but, again, just because C-S is notable doesn't make every aspect of C-S worthy of its own article. Oh, and as others have mentioned, put them in the counter-strike wiki. GassyGuy 23:23, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been added to the list of CVG deletions. SevereTireDamage 23:33, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - I cannot be bothered to argue this again. I made 3 fairly hefty contributions to the previous debates, explaining why some of these were notable and encyclopedic, and why comments like "same as Super Mario level 5-2" are incorrect and do not apply to this situation. I cannot be bothered to again. I was considering actually improving the de_dust article using information from the map author's website, but I'm not going to do work on these if they're going to crop up for deletion every bloody week. I seriously suggest participants actually read through the previous nominations and see the comments posed there, I may just copy-paste some over. Right now, the articles aren't in a great state, but AFDing them all the time really isn't going to help. - Hahnch e n 00:19, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Strongest Possible Delete maybe a list with a brief description, but not this.... --Pboyd04 00:43, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete all, completely unencyclopedic, google test in this case is completly misleading and does not prove any measure of notability. Mabye the counter strike people should start a wiki for this cruft.--Peta 00:53, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete all or Merge. No reason for individual maps in a game to each have their own article. TJ Spyke 02:03, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Transwiki to Counter-Strike wiki. Delete if this is not a valid option (license incompatibility). These violate WP:NOT and as they mostly aren't written using reliable sources they also need to go as WP:OR. GRBerry 02:25, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Strong keep The articles are notable, that has been established enough. Cruft is a moot point; List of Super Bowl champions is rather important, but it's "cruft" to me, because I don't care about American Football all too much. The articles are by no means game guides. As David Bergan said, there is nothing in there that could be considered game guide material. As I stated in the previous debate, "I am adamantly opposed to having strategies and the like in Wikipedia, and I actively remove anything that could be considered strategy guide material [from these articles]." As far as original research policy, in the first debate I stated, quoting WP:OR "'An edit counts as original research if it proposes ideas or arguments.' These articles propose no ideas or arguments." In opposition to merging, I said: "Counter-Strike maps is already a very long article. While I recognize that some parts of it could be removed, even if they were, the article would be extremely long after all of these map articles (and more, as they're still being written) were merged into it." Since then, Counter-Strike maps has been split into itself and Custom Counter-Strike maps due to its length. Merging is not a good idea, in my opinion; whatever article it was merged into would be too long. --Varco 04:09, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- It's simple not true to say that these did not contain "game guide" material. - brenneman ^{L} 04:16, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  - Varco - if you actually finished quoting the line you took from WP:OR you would see that original research is not just new "ideas" and "arguments", but also unpublished statements and general data, which this material certainly falls under. The FULL quote is that original research "...includes unpublished theories, data, statements, concepts, arguments, and ideas". Wickethewok 04:37, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    - I don't see this text after the quote. Perhaps we're not looking at the same thing. Wikipedia:No original research#What is excluded? These are not unpublished statements or general data... they're descriptions of the map in question. --Varco 05:26, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      - Ah, I was looking at the "Definition" section of WP:OR. Wickethewok 05:30, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

~~Strong keep~~ There is an article about every episode of Season 5 of 24. Yet we are debating to delete pages that explain _the most played_ maps in computer FPS's. These maps are ones that ALL serious gamers know about/heard of. There is massive ammounts of culture, references, and history behind these maps. They make up the heart of CounterStrike, the most popular first person shooter out there. And you guys want to delete that, yet making a page for _every_ episode of 24 and Simpsons is okay? Just think about what you guys are talking about, this is a ridicoulous arguement, you might as well delete about a 3rd of Wikipedia if you delete these. You have to understand, de_dust is the most recognized computer map of all time. Any serious gamer who sees it can easily say "Counter-Strike". When they reach this kind of popularity, it _IS_ worth keeping. There are articles on wikipedia that are a lot worse and need a lot more attention than this. In no way should these be merged or deleted, it would violate the goal of wikipedia in many ways, because these maps truly do mark a serious spot in computer gaming. Individual maps definately DO have their own cultural impact, ask any serious gamer about dust or aztek. Everyone who here is saying that this is becoming a game guide I guess is not a CounterStrike gamer, because if they were, they would know that each of these maps adds their own bit of tactics, ideas, and culture to Counter Strike. Considering the Google results for these maps, and that there is history about these maps that will be deleted if we merge them, I strongy oppose any deletion. --Rake 05:21, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You already "voted" or whatever we're calling it above - I slashed it so as not to confused closing admin or other users. Wickethewok 05:30, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Strong delete - mention the notable ones in Counter-Strike maps or something, but these individual entries are too much detail for an encyclopedia. Transwiki if there is an appropriate wikia/offsite target. -- nae'blis _(talk) 05:34, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 125: / Line 125: @@
 *<s>'''Strong keep'''</s> There is an article about every episode of Season 5 of [[24 (TV Show)|24]]. Yet we are debating to delete pages that explain _the most played_ maps in computer FPS's. These maps are ones that '''ALL''' serious gamers know about/heard of. There is massive ammounts of culture, references, and history behind these maps. They make up the heart of CounterStrike, the most popular first person shooter out there. And you guys want to delete that, yet making a page for _every_ episode of 24 and Simpsons is okay? Just think about what you guys are talking about, this is a ridicoulous arguement, you might as well delete about a 3rd of Wikipedia if you delete these. You have to understand, de_dust is the most recognized computer map of all time. Any serious gamer who sees it can easily say "Counter-Strike". When they reach this kind of popularity, it _IS_ worth keeping. There are articles on wikipedia that are a lot worse and need a lot more attention than this. In no way should these be merged or deleted, it would violate the goal of wikipedia in many ways, because these maps truly do mark a serious spot in computer gaming. Individual maps definately DO have their own cultural impact, ask any serious gamer about dust or aztek. Everyone who here is saying that this is becoming a game guide I guess is not a CounterStrike gamer, because if they were, they would know that each of these maps adds their own bit of tactics, ideas, and culture to Counter Strike. Considering the Google results for these maps, and that there is history about these maps that will be deleted if we merge them, I strongy oppose any deletion. --[[User:Rake|Rake]] 05:21, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
 *:You already "voted" or whatever we're calling it above - I slashed it so as not to confused closing admin or other users.  [[User:Wickethewok|Wickethewok]] 05:30, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
+*'''Strong delete''' - mention the notable ones in [[Counter-Strike maps]] or something, but these individual entries are too much detail for an encyclopedia. Transwiki if there is an appropriate wikia/offsite target. -- [[User:Nae'blis|nae'blis]] <i><sub>[[User_talk:Nae'blis|(talk)]]</sub></i> 05:34, 18 July 2006 (UTC)