Talk:Cunt

Request to add to the "Cunt" page under popular music

On their 1981 album "Ghost in the Machine, the Police used cunt in their song, "Rehumanize Yourself" as a slightly stronger form of "jerk" or "git". It appears in the third verse:

'Billy's joined the National Front/He always was a little runt/He's got his hand in the air with the other cunts/You've got to humanize yourself — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.207.206.172 (talk) 2013-11-01T03:24:24(UTC)

Information that isn't really necessary

Is it actually necessary to list allusions to the word "cunt" on television, when the word isn't actually used? I think it should be deleted. (in section 4.3.2) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.240.13.166 (talk) 2013-11-02T23:45:08(UTC) In an edition of The Graham Norton Show, the Irish comedian phoned a US woman who provided a service to fetishists by describing the sensation of trampling mud in her bare feet. Unfortunately she said "My cunt is so wet!" whereupon Norton hastily hung up and the programme went to a commercial break.

T.S. Eliot quote missing

In my humble opinion a reference to the literary usage of the work in The Waste Land - the Mrs Potter washed her cunt …refrain - is missing in the Modern Literature session. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.186.144.232 (talk • contribs) 03:27, November 23, 2014 (UTC)

Hmmm...

[1] and [2] have the line as "They wash their feet in soda water". However, [3] annotates the line, saying

This passage is a derivation of an Australian military cadence in vogue during WWI. The original version Eliot cites in his correspondence with Pound reads:

Oh, the moon shone bright on Mrs. Porter
And on her daughter

They washed their cunts with soda water

and linking to [4] and [5]. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 04:23, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 December 2014

"for on" sounds awkward; "for" or "on" can stand alone in this situation.66.74.176.59 (talk) 09:50, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Already done -Fixed in this edit. From next, please suggest your changes in 'change X to Y' format, and if necessary provide reliable sources that support the changes you want to be made. Anupmehra -Let's talk! 18:56, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Slang?

I'm not sure that cunt 'is slang for female genitalia'. The opening sentence is cited to the OED, but I don't have access through the paywall, and I wonder if this is part of the OED definition. From our own article on slang, "Its use implies that the user is familiar with whatever is referred to, or with a group of people who are familiar with it and use the term." This is correct for slang words which have subculture associations, such as foxy, LOL and unfriending. Cunt does not replace any "well-known conventional synonym" - it is the oldest word in the book for the object specified. It is not 'liminal language' - I would say that everybody in the English speaking world is quite clear to what it refers, even though they would rather use one of the well-known synonyms themselves.

I would suggest that it 'is a vulgarism for female genitalia'. Vulgar is used and linked in the very next sentence, so that will need to be adjusted or removed, I think. Before I make a change, do others have the same feeling about 'slang', can anyone confirm the OED's view, and has anyone got a better suggestion? --Nigelj (talk) 22:07, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

I see no problem in describing the word as slang in modern English: it gives (roughly) this meaning in the first three dictionaries of English slang that I have just consulted, and my copy of Chamber's Dictionary describes it as "taboo slang". --Boson (talk) 09:41, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it's not slang at all. That's plain false. It's an old long-established word that has existed for centuries. The term 'slang' was introduced in September 2014 in this edit. Paul B (talk) 10:05, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Agree it's not slang. Don't like the word vulgarism much either to be honest A vulgarism is an expression or usage considered non-standard or characteristic of uneducated speech or writing. That doesn't seem to fit Cunt. Why not just "Cunt is a term for..."

I would say it's non-standard in "educated speech or writing", so I see no problem with vulgarism. Paul B (talk) 12:58, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

You've moved the standard there. Is cunt a standard term for Vagina? Certainly pretty common. Does the use of cunt characterise the writing or speech as uneducated? Certainly used by plenty of educated people. Doesn't fit vulgarism. Note:In colloquial or lexical English, "vulgarism" or "vulgarity" may be synonymous with profanity or obscenity, but a linguistic or literary vulgarism encompasses a broader category The word has not come as importation into standard English from the classless commoner, or certainly not recently enough to be worth referring to.SPACKlick (talk) 13:05, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Cunt is not another term for "vagina", which is a more specific thing. The fact that it's common is beside the point. Many vulgarisms are common. Lots of vulagar words are used by educated people - when they want to sound vulgar. But that's not what the definition of vulgarism you quote means. It means it is not standardly used in polite discourse, which it isn't. Paul B (talk) 13:09, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Sorry yes, shouldn't have used Vagina, did mean female genitalia. I fully disagree with your definition of vulgarism in linguistics. A vulgarism would be something like "Can I axe you a question?", It is an example of an uneducated use of the language. Cunt is standard English, it's just also Taboo. The preface of Bache's Vulgarisms and other errors of speech may make the point clearer. SPACKlick (talk)

A brief comment: Why can't a very long established word be slang? Garik (talk) 15:28, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Slang is non-standard usage associated with groups, attitudes or identities. Cunt is not associated with any particular one of the above. SPACKlick (talk) 15:38, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Though there is sufficient agreement in sources to call it slang, in view of the vague - and different - definitions of slang, perhaps we could agree on "informal term". There may also be different definitions (genitalia, vulva, vagina) in contemporary English. --Boson (talk) 15:53, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

do we need an Adjective at all? SPACKlick (talk) 17:04, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

I don't think you quite mean "adjective" (there's no adjective in "slang term" or "vulgarism"), but I agree that it might be worth sidestepping the issue by just saying "term". A problem with the above discussion is that "slang" isn't a terribly well defined concept. While slang very often is associated with groups, attitudes, or identities, it's not clear to me that this is a necessary condition (and Dumas and Lighter, 1978, didn't seem to think it was either). So yes, let's just avoid using the word here. Garik (talk) 17:24, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Purely pedantic aside. In the nounphrase "Informal Term", informal is an adjective. In the NP "Slang Term", Slang is an adjective. in Vulgarism Vulgar is an adjective and the suffix -ism relates (in this context) to phrases having that property. In all three cases there is an element appropriately identified as adjectival and appropriately called an adjective.SPACKlick (talk) 17:32, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

We don't need an adjective but, for that matter, we could say it is a term for a part of the human anatomy. The point is to provide a reasonably precise definition in the first sentence. If a term is not standard, formal English, it is sensible to indicate this immediately, as most dictionaries do, especialy since this article is really about the word, rather than the concept, which is, itself, unusual; we do not, after all, have an article on "arse" or "prick". --Boson (talk) 18:07, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Reading through a couple of dozen dictionaries (not all WP:RS) vulgar would seem to be the most appropriate adjective. Slang and vulgarism are innacurate, informal is uninformative in this context. I have no objections to "vulgar term" or even, as is used in some dictionaries markedly or highly vulgar. [[User:|SPACKlick]] (talk) 19:54, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

The term cunt is not simply "a term for a part of the human anatomy." It is usually meant as a vulgarism, especially in the United States or other western parts of the world, and it is usually meant as an insult toward women; all of that should be made clear in the WP:Lead sentence. The same way that we currently do for the term bitch. Therefore, I reverted SPACKlick's removal of "vulgarism." The difference between bitch and cunt regarding their gender use is that bitch has become more gender-neutral than cunt has in recent decades. I reiterate that, these days, the term cunt is more of an insult toward women than a name for their genitalia, and it does not refer to men nearly as much as it refers to women; various WP:Reliable dictionaries and other WP:Reliable sources are clear on that gender issue. And I was clear about that before: Talk:Cunt/Archive 5#Recent edits, change to 'derogatory' and such. But since that previous discussion, we have the WP:Lead sentence giving men the same WP:Weight as women for the initial sentence. Flyer22 (talk) 20:18, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Since SPACKlick distinguishes between vulgarism and vulgar, I went with "vulgar term" as a compromise. Followup edit here. Flyer22 (talk) 20:35, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

And here. Flyer22 (talk) 20:37, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks everyone for weighing in. I'm very happy with how it's turned out. I wasn't personally aware of the second meaning of vulgarism, although according to Wiktionary, the first meaning does still exist. Better to be safe and avoid ambiguity in a first sentence, though. Re some of the points Flyer22 raised, We really have three definitions in the first sentence - (a) anatomical, (b) insult to females, (c) insult to males. It has been made clear here in the past that (b) has a very specially bad status in US American English, but as the article has matured, it is also clear that this special connotation is really not found in most other English variants - UK, Ireland, Aus, NZ etc. While it should certainly be covered, I'm glad that you don't feel it necessary to get the US case right into first sentence. Thanks again. --Nigelj (talk) 20:58, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

The WP:Lead sentence now looks like this. What I am stating about the term cunt especially referring to women is that it is what the WP:Reliable sources usually state about the term, as seen here, here and here. One can respond to that by commenting: "Oh, those are American-English sources." But these sources do not usually restrict the "especially a woman" or "used as a disparaging term for a woman" terminology to the United States. I would need WP:Reliable sources that specifically state or otherwise show that "this special connotation is really not found in most other English variants" for me to believe that it isn't, and sources about the term's use in non-English and/or non-western cultures would also be helpful. Either way, the term cunt especially refers to females by referring both to female genitalia and to the female person as a whole. But, yes, I am not going to try to push the "especially female" aspect for the WP:Lead sentence. I'd rather not waste time debating that in the case of opposition. Flyer22 (talk) 21:41, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Christopher Pyne, Australian Politician

Christopher Pyne has extraordinarily used the word "cunt" in the Australian Parliament, and appears to like to use the word to refer to some of his colleagues. Despite this being in new asrticles in print media and on the web it perhaps isn't worthy enough for the article. Just mentioning it in case Mr Pyne keeps being cunty and using the word "cunt" (at which point the proper references would need to be looked up and cited etc) 14.200.208.126 (talk) 02:09, 13 February 2015 (UTC)