User talk:Grayfell

Hello! Please leave new messages at the bottom of the article. Don't forget to sign your posts by typing four tildes (~), like this: ~~~~. Thanks. Grayfell (talk)

Welcome

Welcome!

Hello, Grayfell, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place {{helpme}} before the question. Again, welcome! --Elkman ^(Elkspeak) 04:23, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

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Knee scooters

Hi can you tell me why the link to the page on knee scooters being better than crutches was removed? Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.21.174.118 (talk) 19:32, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Hello. Sure, I can do that. The link is to what appears to be an individual blog, (which in Wikipedia jargon is a WP:SPS- a self-published source). It didn't help that the blog endorsed a product and had Amazon affiliate links prominently featured on it. Wikipedia doesn't use blogs (except those by established experts in certain circumstances) and Wikipedia is not a platform for promotion, which this appeared to be. It might help to familiarize yourself with Wikipedia's guidelines on external links and verifiability. Thanks. Grayfell (talk) 19:54, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Judy Carter's page

I was not trying to violate copywright laws. My goal was to revert back to the old page that had links to her books.

to have a wikipedia page you must so noteforthyness. Judy has published four books and the links to her books depict this. So i re-established them manually

204.102.74.5 (talk) 21:31, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Nope. Assuming I'm even reading that correctly, that is flat-out wrong. The book articles have nothing to do with notability. You obviously knew how to make Wikilinks, since you just did it, so the claim that you restored all the promotional content as a way to put those back is silly, bordering on insulting. Grayfell (talk) 21:56, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm in the process of finding secondary sources for the wikipedia page and fixing up the articles. Who decides if the pages get deleted or not Nerdypunkkid (talk) 18:15, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

You should've added reliable secondary sources when you created the articles, and not wait over a year for someone else to notice. Your talk page demonstrates that you've already been banned once for creating promotional articles without any secondary sources, so I don't accept that you didn't understand how this works. As for who decides if the pages get deleted, there are a bunch of links right on your talk page, and the nominated articles, explaining all of that. If you don't understand those pages, how about this? I'll answer your questions when you answer mine. Grayfell (talk) 21:08, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes I was banned in 2008 when I created the article about Dan Nainan i believe. It was a work in progress article which I intended to start and work on over a the course of a couple of days and not complete within the time of posting. As a result i wrote things with out properly citing them and it kept getting taken down, after speaking to an admin orangemike i believe they told me about wiki scrapbook which i used to complete the article and then once it was completed and cited it was posted and accepted.

When I created the articles: The Message of you, The Homo handbook, The Comedy Bible, Standup comedy the book. I viewed other wiki articles of comedy books and saw that they only had one or two citation for instance: Brain dropping by George Carlin only has one reference and the book Three Times Carlin also by George Carlin only has an amazon listing as the reference. So that what i used a model for creating the wiki articles of these book, the ISBN number and a reference or two. When i posted them they were not nominated for speedy deletion and in a day or so there was a tab on the talk stating that the book are within the scope of wikibooks. Then I was shocked a year later when you came along and not just nominated them for deletion or started a discussion on talk that there need more citations but just delete them all together.

What other questions you have for me

here one for you the latest edit on the Homo handbook why did you delete a good citation

Nerdypunkkid (talk) 20:29, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Please stop formatting these talk page entries with bullet points, it is extremely distracting. You might want to review Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines, but just try to make it look like all the other entries on this talk page.

Why were you adding WP:REFSPAM to articles? I linked to the question, did you actually read what I wrote on your talk page? If not, please do.

Sometime when you make an article, it takes a while before anybody else pays attention. That doesn't mean the article is now invincible and can't be challenged. You're basically trying to sneak-in articles hoping nobody notices. Does that sound like how Wikipedia should work to you?

Find sources that are more reliable, and offer deeper coverage. If you don't understand why some sources are good and others aren't, you need to figure that out before going any further.

Yes, Brain Droppings needs more sources. However, that book was written by a very famous comedian, and was a New York Times bestseller for almost forty weeks. These are clear indications of notability. The four Judy Carter books gave no such indications. The Homo Handbook looks like it might squeak-by the deletion process, but it will have to be rewritten to be less promotional. All four articles, as well as Judy Carter itself were written like advertising. Wikipedia isn't a place for advertising.

I have no idea what you mean by "wikibooks". https://en.wikibooks.org/ is a website for open-source textbooks, which has nothing to do with what we're talking about. None of the four book related articles have talk pages, and I don't see anything similar on your talk page.

The source at "teachclean.com" was useless. It was an extremely questionable site, and as a source, it didn't support anything that wasn't already in the article with better sources. We're not looking for any-and-all sources you can find about the books. We're looking for quality sources that actually add new information for building an article. Maybe Help:Referencing for beginners would help. When creating an article, the sources have to actually establish that the subject is significant. Not just passing mentions or listings in directories. You have already been explained this on your talk page, and I'm betting other places, too. So what is the source of confusion? Grayfell (talk) 21:55, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Hi

Hello, sorry, i'm not contributing to WikiPony anymore. And my lvl in english is not good enough. Also, i don't want to become fair game or SP

I'm just a reader now. Intro of article looked pretty much straight forward "evil cult", rather than actually trying to address the subject of the article which is "Scientology in France". One element of the subject eating the whole article. Now it looks a little better after your editions.

Started on wrong foot ? mmmh, ARC breaks happens. I didn't edited an article in a long time. One edit, revert, edition war. Haaaa, da good old WP.

May i suggest a new section be added in the article about the organization of the church in France, and their web of associations. (secondary sources consider it an element worth of mention). The early history of Scientology in France can be found in the book La secte: secte armée pour la guerre : chronique d'une "religion" commerciale à irresponsabilité illimité by fr:Roger Gonnet. Names of those associations can be found on Scientology websites and in the Journal officiel de la République française that publish the creation/modification of any association in France. The parliamentary reports and MILS/MIVIDULES reports lengthly discuss the topic of those associations and their actions.

Looks like i don't have the lvl in english to write it, also wiki syntax and habits are different.

I prefer tea!

Bye bye. --Lilyu (talk) 09:42, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

You are Fucking up all Size 14 related projects

Whats your problem with this band? --Shingovertheworld1 (talk) 22:52, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm trying to make the articles less crappy. If you've got a problem with that, please discuss on the article's talk pages, and familiarize yourself with Wikipedia's policies. Grayfell (talk) 22:53, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Stop fucking editing articles you have no knowledge over the subject on. --Shingovertheworld1 (talk) 22:56, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Be nice. You don't get to decide who is and isn't an expert. Like I said, if you have a problem with my edits, discuss them. Copy/pasting the old versions isn't going to accomplish much. Grayfell (talk) 22:58, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

John Harvatine IV

Hi! In an article regarding the Harvatine post and the xbox programming, it's states Harvatine as a director. Can that be added back in? Thanks of you help.

Chuck Sample — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chuck sample (talk • contribs) 23:04, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

@Chuck sample: No, I don't really think so. The source doesn't say he's the director. It says he's one of the creators, along with Eric Towner. It also gives mentions Seth Green and Matt Senreich very prominently.

That's the problem with all the sources: they mention Harvatine as a duo with Towner, or as part of Stoopid Billy Stoodies. There's very little about Harvatine by himself at this point. Without some more specific, reliable sources about Harvatine, the article might end up being turned into an article about Stoopid Buddy Stoodies, or merged with Stoopid Monkey. Grayfell (talk) 02:17, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Thank you again for your help, I can't say that enough. Regarding Harvatine as a director, doesn't this seem to make it clear enough?? Just checking:

Sony Pictures Animation is developing a stop-motion “Superbago” movie with “Robot Chicken” exec producers/animators John Harvatine and Eric Towner directing.

That's from this:http://variety.com/2014/film/news/superbago-sony-pictures-animation-1201259695/

And what about this article to help his cause, or is it too fluff for him:

http://fortune.com/2012/11/26/behind-seth-greens-stop-motion-animation-success/

Actually, I like that Fortune article. You're right, it's kinda fluffy, and interviews are WP:PRIMARY, but it helps give some perspective on how significant he is to Robot Chicken. Reading that, I think that the Stoopid Monkey article really needs to be updated.

The thing with Superbago is that it's not out yet, so we need to avoid giving WP:UNDUE weight to it. If it had it's own article (Superbago), that might change things, because we could explain it more clearly. We can mention that he's co-directing, along with Towner, but even that seems premature to me. Grayfell (talk) 02:43, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Sorry. To be clear, the article already mentions that they are directing it. What I mean is we should avoid any further info unless it's supported by solid, reliable sources. Grayfell (talk)

I really appreciate you explaining things, and I hope I've showed enough of my boss's stuff to keep his page up. Off the record, I really loved your comment: (cur | prev) 21:47, 22 October 2014‎ Grayfell (talk | contribs)‎ . . (1,531 bytes) (-94)‎ . . (→‎References: Having attended an industry "Awards Soiree" is not worth mentioning.) (undo | thank)

That was pretty funny. He won an award that night, or the studio did, but that was a pretty funny comment. Also, I was looking today, he has been nominated for two emmys, as it states on his IMDB, but I'm having trouble showing his name in the credits of the 2013 one. They just don't seem to have a record of that online. Also, can I upload a picture of him from a panel at this years Comic Con? And should I keep digging for more articles with him in it? He was on a LA BUSINESS JOURNAL article but I can only find a printed one online. Just trying to help, and thanks again for your time, I'm sure this isn't an easy job.

@Chuck sample: I'm glad I can help. I am, at heart, a pedantic person, so having an outlet where I can use that for good instead of evil is a source of satisfaction for me.

Pictures are very fussy things. Wikipedia:Picture tutorial is worth going through for the technical aspect. It helps to understand that Wikipedia:Image use policy is very strict, since it's all about copyright violations and how Wikipedia is used. Volunteers who are familiar with it are often overworked and under-thanked, so it tends to be an unforgiving process.

Put simply, you should not upload a picture you personally do not have the rights to, and you should not upload a picture you're not comfortable being used for a wide variety of other purposes. This is a very common mistake, but it usually means that you, as a person, are the one who took the photo. That's a simplification, but not much of one. Like I said, fussy. From past experience I suggest taking the time to go over it, and make sure your ducks are in a row before submitting a picture to save yourself aggravation and wasted time.

More meaty sources are good. Passing mentions, or more stuff that just says he's part of Stoopid Buddy without any further info, are probably not needed, but anything more substantial is worth considering.

More importantly, you should also read Wikipedia:Plain and simple conflict of interest guide, because you have a Wikipedia:Conflict of interest. This doesn't mean you cannot edit, but it does bring with it a lot of challenges. Wikipedia is not a platform for promotion, and attempts to use it as such don't go over very well, so please, please understand what you're getting into. It was pretty obvious when you mentioned where he grew up and what high school he went to without any sources, but it's greatly appreciated that you're open and transparent about it. Some editors pretend they're "just fans", but they're not fooling anyone, and it's just awkward.

By volume, most of the massive wall of text above this discussion here on this talk page is me dealing with conflict of interest stuff, so I hope you can understand why I'm emphasizing this point. Taking a look at the COI guide will help. Thanks. Grayfell (talk) 07:56, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

BIG AGILE TOOLKIT

Hi! Thanks for your comments. However the Big Agile Toolkit is not spam. I added the resource to the agile resources page in sincere expectation that readers will have easy access to a resource for deploying projects at scale using agile principles. The web resource to which it links is a full free copy of the resource and it is free. So I hope you will agree that there is no financial gain. Im not expecting you or I to voice our professional credentials to evaluate or recommend agile approaches. I am happy to do so if this helps however. Pcfmuser (talk) 16:26, 27 October 2014 (UTC). Thanks. Martin Leonard

@Pcfmuser: It appears you are confused about how Wikipedia works in general, and specifically about how external links work in articles. "Big Agile Toolkit" is an external site, which you linked to inside of an article. That's almost never acceptable, per WP:EL. If you are unwilling to read that guideline, just note that the other items listed in the "Agile methods" section of the article all link to other Wikipedia articles. Your link was to an outside site, and is therefor inappropriate. Write the article first, although please, please include solid WP:SECONDARY sources when you do. The current Draft:Big Agile fails to do this, as one is a link to your site, and the other is a dead link of unknown significance.

Additionally, it doesn't matter if it's free, and you appear to be operating under an overly-narrow definition of spam. The link served to promote a website without any secondary sources establishing its significance. Further, the link is to a site which lists Martin Leonard as the author. The site is aggressively listing Amazon.com affiliate links. Your username matches the domain name of the "about" link on the site, which offers commercial services. You are clearly not impartial, here, and pretending otherwise is counterproductive. WP:REFSPAM is still spam.

Wikipedia uses reliable sources, not personal expertise or professional credentials. If there are reliable sources that establish your expertise, so be it, but mucking about with WP:AUTOBIOs rarely ends well. Grayfell (talk) 21:48, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Hi

Hey there, I read your comment on my page and I'd just like to say (as unbelievable as it may sound) that the edit onto the page 'Poster' wasn't me. I am a student at junior high, and most of the other students in my class are rather immature. So having left my laptop open one of my friends decided to edit a page using my wikipedia account. Thank you for your understanding Xaverin (talk) 20:28, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Edit: Grayfell is a really cool name! Xaverin (talk) 20:30, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

@Xaverin: Thanks! Grayfell is either another name for Grani, Sigurd's horse, or is the name of Sigmund's horse, or they are the same horse, depending on which source you're reading. Really, though, I just chose it because I thought it sounded cool.

It's not unbelievable at all. I kinda figured that when someone replaces the word 'art' with 'fart' junior high is probably involved, so no worries. If you don't remember to log out, or keep a closer eye on your laptop, you may eventually get banned if that kind of thing happens regularly, but it's not a huge deal, and many respected editors have that kind of thing in their history. Grayfell (talk) 08:54, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Hello! There is a DR/N request you may have interest in.

This message is being sent to let you know of a discussion at the Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard regarding a content dispute discussion you may have participated in. Content disputes can hold up article development and make editing difficult for editors. You are not required to participate, but you are both invited and encouraged to help this dispute come to a resolution. The thread is "India Against Corruption". Please join us to help form a consensus. Thank you! --Mdann52talk to me! 08:28, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

TruthRevolt

Have you seen this? http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/truthrevolt-labeled-unreliable-source-wikipedia-editor Thought you should know in case you haven't. FYI, I'm mentioning it in the next Signpost. Gamaliel (talk) 17:03, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Huh. Weird. Thanks for the heads up. Grayfell (talk) 21:21, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Question about what "promotional" means

I have a quick question about what "promotional" means. On the Wikipedia page for "stickers" and for "street art" I had added links to a non-profit, alternative street art stickers museum called "Hatch Kingdom." You had taken it down saying it was too promotional. Yet there are lots of pages that are devoted to places like the Guggenheim Museum, etc. What would be an appropriate way to let people know that a museum devoted to sticker art exists? Also, this is the first time I've done anything on Wikipedia, so please forgive any errors of terms of signing my name, etc. Not sure about the four tildes, for example.Stickerkitty (talk) 17:36, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

@Stickerkitty: Hello. There's a mismatch between the museum and its website. Hatch Kingdom's website appears to be about buying-and-selling, with info about the museum almost an afterthought. This is why it looks like WP:SPAM to me. The site appears to be for a small, primarily commercial website which is also a museum. It's a cool idea, but the site has very little info about the museum itself, other than confirming its existence.

If you would like to include info about the museum, one good place to start is by finding WP:RELIABLE, WP:SECONDARY sources about the museum. Books, newspapers, journals, magazines, that kind of thing. The Guggenheim, per your example, has many, many sources talking about it. The Guggenheim also publishes reliable works about notable art and artists, which is why it can sometimes be helpful to link to it in other articles. If you're looking for sources, be cautious of blogs, zines, and forums, since they are usually self-published sources (WP:SPS), and are rarely usable. I did a cursory search for sources, and didn't find anything that jumped out at me, but don't let that discourage you from looking deeper. Also, I don't speak German, which would be helpful.

Signature looks good. If you have any additional questions, let me know. Grayfell (talk) 23:29, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Revision 635666845 on Multilevel Marketing page that you undid on 11/27/14

Hello Grayfell,

The editor who submitted this revision (‪the oddly named 2601:d:ca00:1b36:202f:5d4e:964:7a1a‬ ) asserted that the orginal language was "heavily biased". You undid the revision claiming that the new wording no longer represented the referenced sources attributed to it. Fair enough. However, these are not only "heavily biased" sources, they are grossly inaccurate. This includes, but is not limited to: No MLM company "requires" the purchase of products (not one), none have been publicly criticized for legally challenged for "price fixing" since FTC v. Amway in 1979, only Amway allows their reps to sell training and motivational tools (thus 99% of MLM companies do not), and even they have substantially limited this activity in recent years. It's also nonsensical to quote these sources as to "cult like" activity that suggests participants are brainwashed into not quitting in light of the actual, common, and completely contradictory criticism that the vast majority of MLM participants quit in their first year (and most of them quit in their first 90 days).

Furthermore, one of these sources is a heavily discredited article by Dean VanDruff which contains numerous verifiably inaccurate statements written by someone who has never been an MLM participant, nor possesses any level of expertise in the subject, that was written twenty years ago! Nor has VanDruff written anything about MLM before or since.

All of this begs the question, why not maintain the revised text, which was indeed more neutral and appropriate wording, and simply remove the heavily biased, grossly inaccurate sources it is attributed to? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mwave (talk • contribs) 23:45, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Hello, @Mwave:. I'm not sure where you got the idea that people don't quit cults, that's actually very common. Most people who join new religious movements leave within a couple of years (Apostasy#Other religious movements) much like MLMs and/or pyramid schemes. That doesn't really matter, though, because Wikipedia is based on WP:RELIABLE sources, NOT personal anecdote or opinion. You're making a lot of claims, but you're not including any sources. Your personal expertise is not WP:VERIFIABLE. A quick glance at your edit history shows that this is worth emphasizing. You should review Wikipedia's polices on sources: Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources. Judging by your username, it looks like you have already tried to WP:SELFCITE at least once,[1] and to a WP:SPS that should not be used as a source.

Regarding the edit in question: The article contains many, many sources supporting the assertions in the lead. To clear-up any confusion, the lead is intended to summarize the body of the article, and for that reason inline references are not strictly needed there. The edit in question did not remove the reference to price-fixing, neither did it reference the sales of training material. Having said that, many MLMs sell training and "motivational" materials as a requirement for qualifying for bonuses (Vemma, for example[2]) not just Amway. Again, I have no idea where you got that factoid. If you think that companies which engage in unpalatable behaviors must not be MLMs, that sounds to me like a case of No true Scotsman.

If you have a problem with a specific source you should take it up at Talk:Multi-level marketing, or WP:RSN, not here on my talk page. Do you seriously think that only MLM reps are qualified to write about MLMs? If so, you have some major misconceptions about how Wikipedia works. Again, the place to propose specific edits is on the article's talk page, not here. This is so others can easily find and contribute to discussions. If you have questions about Wikipedia in general, I will try to answer them, but any comments about a specific article may be deleted from my talk page at my discretion. Grayfell (talk) 05:23, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

WP:TLDR
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Grayfell: I responded to this particular revision (or rejection of a revision) on your Talk Page because you were the editor who undid the revision. My issue is not with Wikipedia, it is with a specific action taken by you, based entirely on your judgement and interpretation of Wiki policy. Based on the relevant policies I've read, this is precisely what Talk Pages are for. Firstly, I never suggested "people don't quit cults". My comment regarding cults was specific to the source's (Carol and VanDruff's) alleged assertion that "cult-like techniques" are used to "enhance their members' enthusiasm and devotion". Besides the fact this comment would clearly be a subjective opinion based on Carol or VanDruff's anecdotal observations (thus not even remotely in line with WP:RELIABLE), neither of the works that these references link to even mention the word "cult". As to the related claim published on the Wiki page, it is diametrically opposed to the common, well documented fact that virtually all MLMs experience annual attrition rates of 80-95% (the majority of which quit within the first 90 days). Either MLMs, in general, or at least in large numbers, use "cult-like" brainwashing techniques to cement their participant's "enthusiasm and devotion", or they lose their "enthusiasm and devotion" en mass, and in droves. How can these two positions be reconciled? I will not respond to the rest of your commentary within your first paragraph as it is unrelated to the issue we are discussing. Rather, it seems to be an attempt to discredit the source of the point rather than the actual point. Having said that, and since you did choose to interject this into the discussion, the position you (and one other editor in the past) hold that I am not a "reliable" source as to the subject of multilevel marketing is in light of the easily verifiable fact that I have almost 25 years of experience not just as a distributor, but as a consultant and consumer advocate, and have been adjudged by a court of law as an "expert" in this field. In fact, I believe I am one of fewer than ten US citizens who have testified before a jury, as an expert in MLM and pyramid schemes, in a federal, criminal case. I have researched, studied, analyzed and commented on this subject as my full time occupation since 1990. Mr. VanDruff, on the other hand, openly admits to having no experience with MLM, of any kind (his analysis was "theoretical"), and his entire exhibition of knowledge of this subject is a single article he wrote in 1990! An article riddled with easily verifiable errors, that became outdated a decade ago, and which contains not a single footnote, nor any form of reference or sourcing. Yet, here on Wikipedia, VanDruff is considered a "reliable" and "verifiable" source as to MLM, and I am not. Which is, on its face, patently absurd. Regarding the edit in question: You say the article contains "many sources supporting the assertions in the lead", and that "inline references are not strictly needed there". Fair enough. So, once again, I pose my original question: Why not accept the more neutral language that was submitted, that is much more in line with Wiki policy, and simply remove the "heavily biased" sources that you now claim are not even necessary? I described the issue of price fixing and sale of training material amongst a list of examples as to the unreliability of the sources in question. Your claim that "many MLMs sell training and 'motivational' materials as a requirement for qualifying for bonuses" is utterly false. The only thing MLM companies "require" their reps to purchase is an initial enrollment kit (usually under $50) and, very rarely, a small monthly fee to access an on-line "back office" (optional in the vast majority of MLM programs). Vemma has no such requirement, nor does the source you referenced claim they do. Even the "tapes and tools" once sold by Amway Diamonds were entirely separate from the Amway compensation plan, and unrelated to commission qualification. If I may borrow your own words, I have no idea where you got that factoid. Finally, you rhetorically (I assume) asked, "Do you seriously think that only MLM reps are qualified to write about MLMs?" No, nor do I recall even remotely suggesting any such thing. Nor would I considering I am not an "MLM rep", nor have I been for several years. However, I do believe that to be qualified as a "reliable", authoritative source on MLM you should have at least some practical knowledge of how it actually works in the real world, today. Whoever is responsible for the current version of this paragraph, whether sourced or not, and regardless of its accuracy, it is clearly written in a "heavily biased" manner. The edits made did, in fact, cause it to be much more neutral and thus in line with Wiki policy. The only explanation you have provided for undoing the revision was that the newer, more neutral language no longer applied to the non-neutral, footnoted sources. So, the question remains: Why did you choose to undo the revision rather than simply remove the footnotes? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mwave (talk • contribs) 02:30, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Sigma Beta Rho

Hello Grayfell, I am the National Director of MIS for Sigma Beta Rho Fraternity, Inc. and I created the web content for both our national website and this page. Please do not alter this page content again as it is against content approved by Sigma Beta Rho. I am not copy-pasting official content this is content i created. Do you have any affiliation to Sigma Beta Rho?

@Sigrhoemt: Hello. You appear to have some serious confusion about how Wikipedia works. Wikipedia is for anyone to edit (not just affiliates) and it is WP:NOT a platform for promotion. Neither you, nor your organization WP:OWN the article in question, and regardless, you do not have the right to insert previously published material into Wikipedia. A quick Google search shows that at least some of the material in question has already been published elsewhere. It's a not productive to pretend otherwise. Material was obviously copying from [3] and other places, which is not acceptable. Even if you are willing to donate that material to Wikipedia, which is not something that should be taken lightly, it would still be far, far too promotional to use in a Wikipedia article. Grayfell (talk) 06:57, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Tsunami

Hello, I do in fact think my edit to the page was constructive. It relates to America's Game and the changing history of the 100 year old rivralry. It is honestly becoming the tradition of the United States Military Academy,something that rarely happens.Tsunami2014 (talk) 04:30, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

This edit? Sorry, I don't agree. It was written as a non-neutral joke, it was not supported by a reliable source, and it wasn't a minor edit. Please take a look at Wikipedia:Introduction to understand more about editing Wikipedia. Grayfell (talk) 04:35, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

I don't understand how you reported me on your page when YOU invited ME to reply to your claim. Tsunami2014 (talk) 04:50, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

You added weak jokes about freebasing and penis length to an article, and then claim it's not vandalism. What did you expect? Grayfell (talk) 04:53, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

I actually did neither of the two. I expected for free speech to not be inhibited on a site by an individual who cries "vandilism". I would love to hear your argument for te "weak jokes about freebasing and penis length" I believe you are taking it WAYYY out of context. If you youtube "Army Tsunami 2014" you will see how cadets unified under the song during the football game. Tsunami2014 (talk) 05:04, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Penis length and freebasing jokes added right here: [4]. "Free speech" huh? Wikipedia:Free speech doesn't give you the right to vandalize a group effort. Find a reliable source about the Army/Navy thing if you're serious about it. Grayfell (talk) 05:07, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

If you paid the slightest bit of attention to detail you would know that the edit was not made under me. You have made a false report and it is undair. That was one of my careless classmates but it was not me. I should not be held at fault for another users edit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tsunami2014 (talk • contribs) 05:10, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Right, but you restored it. That info was removed and you put it back. You are responsible for edits made with your account. Find a reliable source (Youtube isn't going to cut it) otherwise leave it out. Grayfell (talk) 05:13, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Touche but here's my rebutal on the source part ->If youtube is not a reliable source then Wikipedia isn't a reliable source. What sir/ma'am/robot would you consider a reliable source? The Duffel Blog perhaps? Yik Yak or would you like for the POTUS to make a statement? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tsunami2014 (talk • contribs) 05:16, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

You're right, Wikipedia isn't a reliable source, and should not be used to source other Wikipedia articles. Read Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources and Help:Referencing for beginners. I think we're done here. Grayfell (talk) 05:20, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Lawrence Lockman

Why did you replace "criminal behavior" in the title with "tax protesting?" Intentionally refusing to pay your income taxes is a crime, as is encouraging others to do so. One can protest without committing a crime, so the former title is more descriptive than the latter.Jiminyjillickers — Preceding undated comment added 23:35, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

I've responded at Talk:Lawrence Lockman, which is where the conversation should be held to include more editors, and facilitate building WP:CONSENSUS. Thanks. Grayfell (talk) 23:52, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Hello! There is a DR/N request you may have interest in.

This message is being sent to let you know of a discussion at the Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard regarding a content dispute discussion you may have participated in. Content disputes can hold up article development and make editing difficult for editors. You are not required to participate, but you are both invited and encouraged to help this dispute come to a resolution. The discussion is about the topic Where's the beef?. Please join us to help form a consensus. Thank you! - Victor Victoria (talk) 22:50, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Help me in editing my Page

Hi Grayfell, I am an owner of a page GreyCampus. It seems my page looks like an advertisement. It was under deletion under wikipedia deletion policy. I guess i have updated this page according to wikipedia notability guidelines. Can you please help in editing this page and avoid deletion. Let me know if any changes can be done.

Thanks in advance.

Regards, Suha Emma Suhaemma (talk) 06:56, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

@Suhaemma: Hello. First of all: you are not the owner of that page. Please read Wikipedia:Ownership of articles. In order for the page to be kept, reliable, secondary sources need to be added. Right now there are no news stories, no academic papers, and no discussion in books about the program. If these things exist, the should be included in the article. Right now, it still seems very promotional. It reads like an advertisement, not like a neutral article about a business. Wikipedia isn't a platform for advertising. I Hope that's helpful. Grayfell (talk) 04:27, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Grayfell, Please Help Me Publish First Article

Grayfell, I am a new user. I have met the requirements to post my first article. I edited 10 articles. Sunday will be my fourth day as a registered user. My article is written and coded on a word document. Can you please help me get it published on Wikipedia directly? Or can you do it?

Synoptics Synoptics (talk) 00:13, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

@Synoptics: Hello. Sure, I would be happy to help. A good first step is to look over Wikipedia:Your first article if you haven't already. Editing 10 articles over 4 days means you're now WP:AUTOCONFIRMed. Usually you don't need to do that to create a page, although it's certainly a good way to get familiar with how Wikipedia works. Being autoconfirmed means you can edit pages that have been WP:SEMI-PROtected, which is a level of page protection admins use for pages that are likely targets of vandalism or similar problems.

Word documents are useful for spell-checking, but they need some editing and adjustment the work as Wikipedia articles. The easiest way I can think of to do that is to start a Help:Userspace draft, and then copy and paste the article there. This lets you preview the article and incrementally edit it in a way that makes sure it works with Wikipedia's system. This also allows you to include Wikipedia:Citations, which are absolutely vital.

I don't use Word anymore, so if there are any useful tips or tools specific to the software, I don't know about them. I would suggest the Wikipedia:Help desk, if there's a specific Word question you have. Sorry. If you discover anything, please let me know.

If the article-name you want to create was semi-protected, it's a good idea to figure out why. Most articles aren't protected, so the article might have been previously created and deleted, or be associated with spammers or something, and knowing what's going on can save a lot of hassle. Make sure the article is written from a neutral point of view, and everything is supported by reliable sources, especially controversial statements. WP:DUE weight is another area that often causes problems.

Let me know when you've created the draft or the article, and I'll be happy to answer any more questions you have. Grayfell (talk) 04:18, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

When I paste it in user space, can you see it so you can tell me if it's ready to go public?

Snoptics Synoptics (talk) 06:21, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

@Synoptics: No, you need to save it. Your draft could be named something simple like User:Synoptics/Draft. As long as it starts with User:Synoptics/ and doesn't contain any odd characters, you can call it whatever you want. Once that has been saved in your userspace, it can be worked on before publishing. If you want, you can add {{Userspace draft|date=January 2025}} to the very top of the draft. This adds a box explaining that it's a draft and giving a little more info.

After saving it, you can let me know by linking to the page just like any other page on Wikipedia (Help:Wikilinks). As an example, here is a link to a user draft I've been working on occasionally: User:Grayfell/Salem High School (Missouri).

If you are having trouble with links, just let me know when you have saved the draft, and I'll find it in your edit history (Special:Contributions/Synoptics).

Once the draft is finished, it can be moved (basically just renamed), which is usually very simple. Incidentally, I am not an administrator, and I don't have any special privileges that you don't, just experience. Grayfell (talk) 06:53, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Grayfell, I Did It. Please Check

Grayfell, I created the article and saved it, as you said. Will you please look at it and tell me how to publish it?

Synoptics Synoptics (talk) 09:43, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

I cannot find my article in my user box. How do I locate it? I saved the page. Please advise. Can you find it? I thought all I had to do was save page. I did that. Now where did it go? I pasted it onto a word document as a back up in case I could not find it.

Synoptics Synoptics (talk) 09:47, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Grayfell, I had thought I was submitting my article directly. Instead, it is under review. Can I resubmit this directly for faster posting after being a registered user 4 days? The article is well written. -- Synoptics Synoptics (talk) 20:16, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

I forgot to give you the link. Here it is. Can't I resubmit directly? that's what I thought I was doing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Synoptics/sandbox/Modern_English_Version

-- Synoptics--Synoptics (talk) 20:17, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Grayfell, my article was patrolled. What does that mean?--Synoptics (talk) 20:25, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

@Synoptics: Hello. My ability to determine what you're doing is limited. From what it looks like, with this edit you submitted the article to articles for creation. This is a review process for new editors. This may not have been your intention, but it's not a bad thing. This does mean that it may take a while before the article is published, however. After you submitted the draft article, another editor, User:Technical 13, moved it to Draft:Modern English Version, which is the preferred place for AFC drafts. This means that it's okay for other people to edit it. Since an article isn't owned by the person who created it, inviting others to work on it by placing it in a more public area of the site, is one part of the publication process.

Looking at the article itself, Technical 13 did quit a bit of cleanup, but the article still needs some attention. For one thing, it has no WP:WIKILINKS. There are the blue links that pepper most Wikipedia articles, and help provide important context. I think people who are not very familiar with Bible scholarship, especially non-Christians, are going to find the article to be too cryptic. This is why wikilinks are so important and useful. Rather than having to explain this info, you can simply link to Masoretic Text, Textus Receptus, and King James Version. That way anyone who doesn't know what those mean, or who needs clarification, has a place to find some background info. Does that make sense?

Knowing how much to wikilink is a bit subjective, but looking at other articles should give you a sense for what works. If a term is central to understanding the article, or is likely to be a source of confusion, adding a wikilink to the first mention of it is a good idea.

Info on patrolling is here: Help:Patrolled edit. Simply put it means that an experienced editor looked at the article to make sure it's not vandalism or an obvious copyright violation, or a test-edit or such. Wikipedia does get vandalized often, so these tools are helpful to keep everything tidy.

You do not need to create a new topic every time you post on my talk page, topics (sections that start == "Topic name" ==) really only need to be created for new discussions.

I hope that's helpful. Grayfell (talk) 23:38, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Grayfell, thank you. Apparently it will not be deleted since it got patrolled. Right?

--Synoptics (talk) 00:07, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Grayfell, would you kindly add the Wikilinks for these? Masoretic Text, Textus Receptus, and King James Version. Or should I do that simply by putting the double brackets around them?--Synoptics (talk) 00:17, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Grayfell, please advise.

It looks like my article is selected for speedy deletion. I found this on the internet:

"This article has recently been created via Wikipedia:Articles for creation. The reviewer is in the process of closing the request, and this tag should be removed soon." --Synoptics (talk) 01:32, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

@Synoptics: Sorry I've been a bit slow to respond, but it looks like everything has worked out. The message simply indicates that that the article no longer needs review, since it's ready for publication. The article has now been published: Modern English Version.

You are correct about wikilinks. Just add two square brackets to either side of the word or phrase you want to link. Remember to use the Help:Show preview button to check and make sure the link is working as expected. Wikilinks are smart enough to figure out suffixes, so if you type 'cat' and add an 's' immediately after the brackets, it will show up as "cats", like this: cats. If you need to link to one thing while saying another, you can use a pipe: | (this character is above the enter key on my keyboard, your mileage may vary). For example: "Jane [[baking|baked]] a cake on Wednesday" links to "baking", and would look like this in an actual article: "Jane baked a cake on Wednesday".

I cannot find any indication that the article is going to be deleted. Are you sure you're not confusing it with some other article? Grayfell (talk) 07:34, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

It was. I got the notice. But I went on the help screen and got a lot of help and was extremely surprised that one of them published it after 5 hours of more work.

Can you help me upload a box like the one on New International Version. I can fill in the information. Can you also upload a public domain photos of a Bible? I hope I am not wearing out the welcome mat.

I noticed you linked from Stanley M. Horton to Modern English Version. WOW. Thank you. What a surprise.--Synoptics (talk) 07:57, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

@Synoptics: We can add an WP:INFOBOX. Template:Infobox Bible translation is the one used on NIV. They can be a bit tricky, technically, so I will get the ball rolling, and you can fill in the details. Remember to use a preview button often, and work incrementally so you can revert if there are any mistakes or errors that are hard to track down.

I'm still having a hard time figuring out why the article was tagged for speedy deletion. I can't find it in the article's history, and it's not on your talk page. Looking at the article, it appears there might have been some problems with automatic copyright violation detection. According to Google books, the sections "Academic Background" and "Ecumenical Composition" were both modified from the this link. It's complicated, and obviously, any alphabetical listing of institutions is going to be a "copy" of any other alphabetical listing of those same institutions.

It's not really a copyright violation (I wouldn't consider it one, anyway) but it's still way, way too much detail. Think of it this way: articles on businesses don't list every single employee, no matter how highly regarded they are in their field. Likewise, it's hard to justify including the names of the people who worked on this translation. That's WP:NOT what Wikipedia is designed for, and not what it's good at. I've started a discussion of this at Talk:Modern English Version, so that other editors can chime in. Grayfell (talk) 08:22, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Oh, pictures, right. Pictures can be a hassle sometimes. To be blunt, it's the area that I see new editors get the most frustrated. Wikipedia:Picture tutorial is a good starting place. The picture used on NIV is not public domain. It's what's called "fair use". If you have a photo of the book, the 'upload a file' link on the left is where you'll need to click, but take it slow, read everything, and if you're still confused, you're not alone. Sorry, I have only limited experience with images myself. template:Non-free book cover is also worth a look. Grayfell (talk) 08:30, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Thank you so much for getting the ball rolling on the box. Tomorrow I'll see what I can do. I have to get some sleep now so I can get up for church.

There was no copyright issue. I wrote everything myself. The information you deleted is not even in the actual book. I have a copy of the book. I had typed it myself and documented the source and footnoted it.

The issue was using neutral sources, so I had to delete the MEV sources, which did not contain the information you deleted. I also had to write more formally and delete what appeared to be conjecture, but really was not. I know people on the translation committee. They used the KJV as the base manuscript, so it really is an update of the KJV.

I hope I can expand that box. I'll try to check it out tomorrow. You are immensely helpful. We'll chat more I hope.--Synoptics (talk) 08:43, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm glad I could be of help, and the article is off to a great start. Grayfell (talk) 08:49, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

I AM SO SORRY. YOU ARE RIGHT. THE LIST IS IN THE PREFACE. THANK YOU FOR CATCHING THAT. BUT I DID NOT COPY AND PASTE FROM THE BOOK. I SEE THAT I DID WRITE THE INTRODUCTORY SENTENCES TO THE LIST DIFFERENTLY. I HAD SIMPY PUT THE LIST IN ALPHABETICAL ORDER LIKE IT DID IN THE PREFACE. HOWEVER THE LIST OF SCHOLARS WAS NOT IN THE PREFACE. BUT YOUR POINT IS WELL TAKEN ABOUT LISTS NOT NORMALLY USED IN WP. YOU ARE SO HELPFUL.--Synoptics (talk) 15:02, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

No big deal. Like I said, I don't think it's a clear-cut copyright violation, but it might have been the reason the article was flagged for deletion. Grayfell (talk) 21:50, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Do you think I can add back in the full list of scholars on the translation committee since that is NOT in the Preface of the MEV, or should I leave it out? Also, I do not know how to add replies to the discussion you created. All I know how to do is to reply to you here. thank you for tidying up the box you created for the site. Do you think it's okay to add an image of the original 1611 King James Version since that was what was updated and since the image of the MEV is probably copyrighted?--Synoptics (talk) 23:54, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Oh, I tidied up the footnotes, added a few redundant ones and learned how to make the footnote numbers stay the same for redundant footnotes, and added the citation needed. --Synoptics (talk) 00:00, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

@Synoptics: Cool, I'll take a look in a sec. I don't think you should add the scholars. It's too trivial. Like I said, Wikipedia articles don't include every single credit for a movie, or every single employee of a notable business, so including everyone who worked on a translation is WP:UNDUE weight. If any of these people are themselves notable (there are articles about them, for example) then maybe, but even then, I would use restraint.

You can respond to a talk page comment by editing the talk page just like you would edit any other page. You should indent your comments by starting a line with a colon (:) to make it easier to tell who's writing. Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines may be useful.

I'll take a look at the cover thing in a while. Don't add the KJV image to the infobox. It's just confusing to have a different book there. Grayfell (talk) 00:03, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

I hope I indented properly this time. How about a public domain image of a generic Bible that says "Holy Bible" on the cover? I could even create that image myself with Microsoft Publisher. I just previewed this page. The first line was indented, but now we're both indenting. I'll work on it. LOL--Synoptics (talk) 00:18, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Every paragraph needs an indentation.

You can use more than one indentation, if you want.

Also, you don't need to start a new subject line every time you post on a talk page.

Like I said, I'll take a look at the image thing. I have uploaded book covers once or twice before, it gets kind of tricky, but it's better to have nothing rather than a generic image or an image of a different book. I like articles with a lot of images, but they add overhead to mobile users, or users with slow Internet connections, so they should be relevant and informative. Grayfell (talk) 00:28, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

I provided the CN you requested after 2011; the same as the previous and following ones.--Synoptics (talk) 00:49, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

This link? It doesn't actually mention when the OT was translated, though. It may seem kind of nit-picky, but having the reference tag there misrepresents the source by implying it's supported when it isn't. It's a good thing to be aware of. If the date were contested, or were in some way controversial, (which doesn't seem to likely, but I've seen stuff like that happen before) it would have to be removed. Grayfell (talk) 00:59, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

You're right. thank you for catching that. I've come to the conclusion that the only documented date for that is on the MEV website, which is not considered neutral. Should I delete the specific dates for the NT and OT, neither are mentioned at Bible Gateway. Bible Gateway just mentions the years.And will you provide a caption for the image you found? Isn't that copyrighted by the publisher? I'll leave that up to you since you uploaded it. You have more experience at this, I have nil. Please advise.--Synoptics (talk) 03:02, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Grayfell, I spoke to soon. You got it under Fair Use. That's great. but I noticed you put "Military Bible Association" where you put the link to the source. That's not the publisher. Military Bible Association owns the copyright to the translation not the artwork.--Synoptics (talk) 03:09, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Grayfell, in academic papers, one footnote after the period covers the entire sentence, unless their are more than one fact in one sentence that needs to be documented by a different source. Is this not true on WP? The footnote after the period for the whole sentence with the beginning year, NT completion year and OT completion year are covered by that last footnote isn't it? I deleted the specific dates since Bible Gateway only mentions the years.--Synoptics (talk) 03:19, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

I really appreciate that you're conscious of not relying on the book's website. It's okay to use a WP:PRIMARY source to fill in non-controversial details. It's a bad habit to over-rely on primary sources, but in this case, I think it would be fine to use the MEV site for the date of completion.

Thanks, the image upload form specifically asked me who had the copyright for the book, so I entered Military Bible Association, but you're right, it's probably asking for the copyright to the cover. I've amended it to include Charisma House Publishing. If you are confident that you know who owns the copyright to the image, please go ahead and change it. Grayfell (talk) 03:28, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Sources should generally go at the end of sentences, (or paragraphs), but specific details can be cited on a word-by-word basis. It would also be acceptable to place both citations at the end of the sentence, which could be a little confusing, but would look much neater. Grayfell (talk) 03:28, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Grayfell, I finally found the right FN for the NT completion year. It's a repeat of FN#2. --Synoptics (talk) 03:36, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Works for me! Grayfell (talk) 03:38, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Grayfell, I take that back. It's not the MEV website that has the dates, it's the preface in the Bible that has the specific dates. Is it okay in this case to site that as the source for exact dates of beginning, NT and OT completion? I'm having to do my own research and am learning where things are.--Synoptics (talk) 05:12, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't see a problem with that. Like I said, for filling in routine details, primary sources are fine. WP:PRIMARY is the policy page that discusses that point. It's a minor point that is significant to the history of the translation, so it's reasonable to use a primary source in this case. Grayfell (talk) 06:42, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Grayfell, I added the citation for the prcise dates from the preface of the MEV. There are three citations in a row. I don't know the forumula for making the second and third ref. to the preface the same footnote number as the first at footnote number 5. 5,6, and 7 should all show as #5. Can you please help me on this? If you insert the formula, I will understand it then. Sincerely, Synoptics--Synoptics (talk) 21:37, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Okay. Here is a 'diff' showing the simplest way to consolidate redundant references. This is where Wikipedia editing becomes coding, rather than just writing, so it pays to use a preview button to avoid errors. In this case, since the entire sentence is supported by the ref, I don't think we actually need to cite each date individually, so after making that edit for demonstration purposes, I've removed the redundant refs. I confused myself explaining that, so hope I made it clear enough. Grayfell (talk) 21:49, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Thank you so much.--Synoptics (talk) 22:11, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Grayfell, is it appropriate to post a photo of the chief editor/author? I found one on a news site http://www.assistnews.net/Stories/2014/s14080068.htm --Synoptics (talk) 00:34, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

No, I wouldn't. Those images must be assumed to be copyrighted, and since the article only tangentially mentions Linzey, it would be hard to make a fair use claim. Wikipedia:Non-free content explains more.

Take the following with a grain of salt, as I'm a little outside of my element here:

Wikipedia tries to be a free content encyclopedia. Sometimes that's impractical, so copyrighted images are used for things like book covers, screen-shots of software, etc., but only when unavoidable. Obviously a book cover is a book cover, and a "free alternative" is usually meaningless, so a fair use argument can be made. If there were an article about Linzey, an images might be included to identify him as the subject of the article, but only if no other image could be made available for some reason. This is common for people who have died, but the only photos available are still under copyright. Since no free-use replacement could reasonably be expected in that situation, fair use arguments are often made.

Since Linzey is alive, and this is not an article about him, options are much more limited. If you can find an image with a compatible copyright license, you could upload it to Wikipedia:Wikimedia Commons. You could also find whoever owns the copyright for the photo and ask them to release it. They would need to contact Wikipedia:Volunteer Response Team, I think, but I'm not really sure. Regardless, it seems like a lot of work, and again, since he's only mentioned fairly briefly, I'm not sure if the article is really going to benefit all that much from it. If you think he might warrant an article of his own, it would be worth it for that.

By the way, if you are interested in biography articles (WP:BIO), you should be aware that biographies of living people, and any content about living people, are held to much higher standards. Grayfell (talk) 01:16, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Grayfell, another user gave me guidance. He said if the chief editor has the photo posed online with the statement required by Wikipedia, then it can be used. I checked the rules by Wikipedia. The chief editor has it posted with the statement, required by Wikipedia, that it is in the public domain. http://www.militarychaplaincy.com/About-Us.html--Synoptics (talk) 04:21, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

You have a good point. Maybe I'll do an article on him, not that the MEV shows he's notable.--Synoptics (talk) 04:35, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Gross error in last message: I meant, "Now that the MEV shows he's notable." LOL. --Synoptics (talk) 05:43, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Petralex Hearing Aid

Petralex Hearing Aid is a product, and therefore a7 is not applicable. I think it would need to be done by affd. (It might also be promotional--I'm checking for that aspect) DGG ( talk ) 15:48, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

neutrality

Hello. You reverted my edit to hipster sexism on the grounds that it wasn't from a neutral point of view. I made that edit primarily because I felt the original introduction only gave one persepctive. Could you please point out specifically how you believe my edit wasn't neutral? I really feel like there needs to be weight given to both perspectives on this article, and I'm sure we can come up with something that we both feel is neutral. Thank you! 2602:306:3215:6300:3CDD:B144:6D1A:F917 (talk) 07:11, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Absolutely. I think the best place to discuss it is talk:hipster sexism, so that other interested editors are more likely to see it and contribute. I will start a discussion there. Thanks. Grayfell (talk) 07:34, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

want to add in the existing kumbh mela article

Hi Grayfell,

I want to add some information in the existing article Kumbh Mela.

Below details need to be inserted under 2015 paragraph of the article.

---

Emergency & Medical Services

Near By Hospitals: 1.Apollo Hospitals Nashik(Swami Narayan Nagar,Near Lunge Mangal Karyalay,Next to Tapovan Road,Adgaon Naka,Nashik) Contact Details: 0253-2510350/450/550/750,-Emergency :0253-2510250 Facilities:Cardiology,Neurology,Orthopaedics,Paediatrics,Nephrology,24*7 Emergency and Radiology,ENT,Opthalmology,Dental.

Other Hospitals: 2.Civil Hospitals-Trimbak Road,Opposite Golf Club Ground 3.Special Medical Centre for Kumbh Mela at Tapovan Road.

=

Emergency & Medical Services For Nashik(2015) Near By Hospitals:

1.Apollo Hospitals Nashik Address:Swami Narayan Nagar,Near Lunge Mangal Karyalay,Next to Tapovan Road,Adgaon Naka,Nashik. Contact Details: 0253-2510350/450/550/750,-Emergency :0253-2510250

Facilities:Cardiology,Neurology,Orthopaedics,Paediatrics,Nephrology,24*7 Emergency and Radiology,ENT,Opthalmology,Dental.

Other Hospitals:

2.Civil Hospitals-Trimbak Road,Opposite Golf Club Ground

3.Special Medical Centre for Kumbh Mela at Tapovan Road.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Anilkumarbehera007 (talk • contribs) 07:08, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

@Anilkumarbehera007: Hello. I understand your concerns, but Wikipedia is not a reliable platform for providing such info. Please review WP:NOT, specifically WP:NOTDIRECTORY and WP:NOTGUIDE. Anyone can edit a Wikipedia article. This is useful for research, but is not useful for emergencies. Because addresses and contact information is outside of Wikipedia's scope, such information cannot be kept reliable. Rather than give people possibly false information about important things such as hospitals, it is better to direct them elsewhere for such info. If you know of a reliable source giving such information, it can be linked to on that page. It may, depending, be useful to put that info on other articles, such as Nashik.

One other thing: You may find Wikipedia's sister project Wikivoyage to be of interest. For example: Wikivoyage:Nashik. If you have any more questions, I will be happy to try and answer them. Thanks. Grayfell (talk) 07:27, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

My recent updates that were deleted

Hello,

Thank you so much for the message. I now completely understand the one update that you deleted on the Consumer Affairs site, to which you left me a message on my talk page. But, I also see (through looking at the page history) for my other additions to the Ambit page where the accolades were taken down without providing me with an understanding of how it violated Wiki. I saw the comment for the works cited to the newsvideos and now understand that possibly news casts available on YouTube are not allowed. My question is this: if it is ok to input criticism of a company into it's wiki page, why not the awards and milestones that it has achieved (from independent sources who were properly cited)? I am dumbfounded as to how one side, but not the other can be properly added and cited. I do believe that it is paramount in Wiki to have a NPOV and I now realize after reading your comment on my Talk page that I could have used better verbiage. Could you please point me in the right direction on how to properly add and cite recognition that a company receives vs criticism? I have combed through several of the neutral POV topics that you have mentioned in others' comments, but I could not find an answer to my question. Thank you in advance for your help. HLong (talk) 08:06, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Hello. This is not the first time this issue has happened. Every few months someone tries to add the JD Power awards to the article, and this has already been discussed on the article's talk page. To reiterate what I've said before: because JD Power gives out many awards, those awards are not especially noteworthy or informative, they merely serve to make the company look better. As you hopefully already know, Wikipedia is not a platform for promotion (WP:NOT). The way to disprove me about the awards is to find reliable, WP:SECONDARY sources discussing these awards. For both JD Power and for the BBB rating, secondary sources almost never exist, and when they do they are usually very trivial passing mentions which fail to establish WP:DUE weight. To clarify, press releases are not considered secondary, and "news" articles that are actually press releases in disguise are a common pitfall. Likewise, JD Power is not a secondary source for info about JD Power awards. Some awards are noteworthy enough that such sources can be assumed to exist, or they are well-established enough that they are informative in their own right (think Academy Awards -everybody knows roughly what it takes to win one). JD Power is not such an institution.

The BBB rating and especially the Direct Selling News silliness likewise require some indication of their greater significance, ideally through reliable secondary sources.

Additionally, if you happen to be an affiliate (or employee) of Ambit, you should disclose that fact to avoid WP:COVERT advertising, and read about having a WP:CONFLICT OF INTEREST. Thanks. Grayfell (talk) 09:24, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Management by perkele

Sorry you reverted my first and only ever change to wikipedia. You just made wikipedia worse. :(

Alihafshar (talk) 20:43, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

If I hadn't, someone else would've. You're welcome to contribute, but maybe try to understand Wikipedia's philosophy and guidelines a little first? Adding Links to copyrighted Youtube clips is not what Wikipedia is about. Grayfell (talk) 20:58, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

elton mayo

Hi Grayfell. ok. so, I've tried talking on the elton mayo topic other person has then ignored it completely. So which dispute resolution area do I put this on? which do you personally suggest?Barniecadd (talk) 01:12, 4 February 2015 (UTC) Also wondering if other person is also considered as engaing in edit warring, by undoing my work but then refusing to discuss on talk? genuine question? did you tell them to knock it off too?Barniecadd (talk) 01:16, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I posted a comment on the talk page as a general statement, and it was not intended as a personal attack. Nobody should edit war. However, right now you're not really in a good position to be pointing fingers, and it almost seems like you're trying to shift blame rather then acknowledging your own behavioral problems. This is why edit warring is bad: because "someone is wrong on the Internet" frustration mounts, it poisons the well, productive editing becomes impossible. My advice is to step back and demonstrate some patience. Right now, your behavior shows none. Content disputes can take a while (sometimes a very long while) to resolve, and it's not supposed to be a contest of will, or a shouting match. Other editors are busy, and have a broad range of topics they like to keep up with. That does not invalidate their viewpoint, so you need to give them time to consider the situation. Much of the changes you have repeatedly made have already been discussed on the talk page, and people's interest in reviewing this yet again is likely limited. Give it some time. Perhaps you can use that time to look at different noticeboards to better understand possible future options, if somehow you cannot find a solution on the talk page. Grayfell (talk) 02:35, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Hi. appreciate your advice & c ur point. Have not pressed undo button again. I'm busy also by the way. looks like u know ur way round this place better than I. In regard to dispute resolution u mentioned, still not sure which I should go to? There are many forums it seems. My comrade on that article though does not wish to play ball it appears! They appear only to be hung up on whether Mayo was a psychologist or was not a psychologist, which frankly I'm not talking about although it clearly seems other persons on that article have hotly disputed with this person. My point is this. What possible reason has my comrade got to place this odd and subjectively referenced section titled "was Mayo a psychologist" smack bang in the middle of this article. Based on the other person, Bromley86, I think they expertly showed my comrade that Mayo actually was based on every reference under the sun! Strange to say the least. My issue is that the article's pretty shabby but can be rectified if I am just allowed to help, but don't want to go back to the fiasco the other day. I'm afraid if I make other changes and add some other research in Australia that Mayo did I will be refused. So my friend, your dispute resolution suggestions are welcomed.Barniecadd (talk) 01:02, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

What you're doing now by making smaller, incremental changes and then waiting for discussions to pan-out is a more productive approach, but proposing those exact changes on the talk page first would be even better. Again, I think patience will be rewarded (or at least not punished). Be ready to pull back from the brink and step away for a while. You may not get to make all the changes you want to make, and if you're really not comfortable with that, starting a blog somewhere else might be more productive. Your talk-page comment seems like you're trying to convince me to take a side in a content dispute, and to be honest, I'm not interested in that. Grayfell (talk) 22:58, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Linux Mint

I did not aim to advertise anyone, I'm sorry, I just added resource devoted to this operating system. Shvondersin (talk) 10:30, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Okay. Wikipedia has fairly strict guidelines for external links. That website doesn't make it clear who's operating it; no names, no indication of editors, etc. It's also got a lot of ads and questionable trackers, which makes it look like spam. More troubling is that it doesn't make it clear that the "pro" version of Mint hosted there is not an official version. A confused user, or one who doesn't speak English well, could easily download that version without realizing it's not the official version. The "Pro" version gives no sign that it's been reviewed by any independent sources for security or reliability or anything. It also requires registration to download, which the official version of Mint does not. It's all very sketchy. Those are problems that need to be fixed before that website could be linked to by Wikipedia. Grayfell (talk) 21:41, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Masturbation

hi , I was actually reading your article on masterbation due to my medical history. I came across that u had put a source saying, age and notices u said baby boys laugh while masterbation and girls orgasm which is totally wrong and if u read facts it's all about chemicals during puberty that u actually need to achieve an orgasm so could you put something more accurate like deep pressure sensation , because this can be missed leading thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Krystalglen16 (talk • contribs) 00:31, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

I have no idea what you're talking about. That isn't "my" article, Wikipedia is a collaborative effort. I keep an eye on many sexuality related articles to prevent vandalism, but I don't specifically remember writing about that. I think Talk:Masturbation is a better place to discuss this. Grayfell (talk) 00:41, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Honest Tea

I don't see how "too advertisey" is a legitimate complaint because I added facts about the history of the company. The history of the business is the history of the business not a subjective fairytale of goodness and gumdrops. If history is perceived as advertising that's on you because I added facts jack. MickeyMinnick (talk) 06:57, 12 February 2015 (UTC)MickeyMinnick

@MickeyMinnick: Okay. Well, Wikipedia uses a formal tone, and refers to people by their last names in most cases. Adding a WP:PRIMARY-sourced tidbit about how they were "cooked up in thermoses" or the exact number of first bottles is WP:UNDUE weight which adds to the pre-existing problems with the article. It effectivly makes the company look more significant than it is, especially since the article already lacks secondary sources. If you are involved with the company, I would advise you to reviews Wikipedia:Plain and simple conflict of interest guide. You should also disclose that fact to avoid any problems with WP:covert advertising. Being too much like advertising is specifically against Wikipedia's policies, guidelines, and manual of style: WP:NOTADVERTISING. Take a look if you don't believe me. Grayfell (talk) 07:04, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Margaret Keane Changes

Read the WP:OR page again. If you still disagree with my post, then keep reading it until you do. If there is a "published" source which shows, very clearly, large style eyes that are the same as Margaret's art before she was even born, then that is not OR. That is just logic.

If I had wrote a sentence that read "dinosaurs existed before computers," that would not be WP:OR either. That would be logic. This is the same exact situation. You seem to have some misconception that WP:OR means you can only plagiarize published sources. That is not the case. In this case, this art style existed before Margaret was even born. That's fact.

I used a valid, published, and even an educational source this time. I also added another specification in the text, since you were so keen on making me research this down to the exact detail.

For the record, based on that research, Margarete Keane was a terrible artist who stole her style from Japanese artists who were drawing large eyes decades before she was even born.

Whether you choose to admit it or not. If you disagree, you just do not understand fine art such as anime.

Please stop undoing my texts now. I do not check wikipedia every day and cannot keep undoing your changes.

Please remember that Margarete Keane page is NOT AN ADVERTISEMENT FOR YOUR HOLLYWOOD MOVIES OR YOUR ART PREFERENCES! Published facts prevail. In this case, I provided the facts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bliljerk101 (talk • contribs) 02:57, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

@Bliljerk101: My Hollywood movies? Wut? If you think that being a terrible artist is an objective opinion that you can put in a Wikipedia article about a living person, you're very confused about how Wikipedia works. You have tried to suggest that an artist is unoriginal without a single source saying that. Did she steal from Anime? I don't know/care, but without a source saying exactly that, you can't put that in an article, it's as simple as that. Read WP:BLP, and WP:SYNTH, and if you still don't understand it, go to a noticeboard or ask a question, but don't just edit war. You don't get to walk away from a contentious edit just because it's inconvenient for you to discuss it. Grayfell (talk) 03:19, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

@Grayfell:

This article only became popular once the movie was announced. I definitely believe it has influenced its contents, most-likely in an illegal way. You could easily have been hired by them.

As for your last edit, removing the statement I wrote about her stealing the art: I'm in agreement based on WP:BLP.

The Anime-like statement should remain, as I believe I have w/o a doubt proved it's within Wikipedia's guildelines, and frankly, it is highly relevant to people. See this article to further prove my original point about the confusion with Margaret Keane and anime eyes amongst anime fans Anime forum posts - And not coincidentally, I have found articles by journalists (big surprise) stating that Margarete Keane influenced anime, which is literally impossible given the style originated before she was even birthed. This is why the wikipedia article should clarify that information accurately, as I have done.

To that note, this sentence needs to be added (very IMPORTANT) (!!!!): "Larry Karaszewski, screenwriter of Big Eyes, was quoted in the Observer stating that Margarete Keane has affected Anime. However, this is not possible as big eyes in Anime dates back to 1917, which was decades before Margarete Keane was ever even conceived. Larry Karaszewski's ignorance in his quotes are duly noted and misguided as he suggests Margarete Keane's affect on Pop Culture be reevaluated based on this inaccurate pretense whilst he is the screenwriter for Big Eyes."