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March 7

Bhagavad Gita

Is there a standard, or particularly well though of, (modern) English translation available? I'm aware that there are many versions free on-line (including on WikiSource); in my experience with other translated works, though, you tend to get what you pay for with that. I was happy to pay for a copy of Seamus Heaney's Beowulf instead of grabbing one of the free ones out there, for example. Annotation would be a bonus, but not necessary. Any suggestions? Matt Deres (talk) 15:42, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

I have a copy of Bhagavad- Gita As It Is, by his divine grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupãda [1] Don't know if this is what you want but is is in English and makes a lot of sense. Understand this mighty tome and one has the equivalent of a collage education for less than a tankful of gas.--Aspro (talk) 20:23, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

The obvious problem with this book is that it is very important to most of Hinduism, which also has disagreements on core tenets which make Christianity look like a bunch of Borg in comparison. So, think of all the different version of the Bible available in the West, multiply that number tenfold or so, and that might give you an idea about how many variants there would be in the Bhagavad Gita. My best guess might be to take one of the Penguin editions, like those listed at Amazon, or similar editions from presses which print a lot of "classics," which probably have the best chance of being what might be the least divergent and most basically "academic" editions. John Carter (talk) 21:43, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

The Bible has different translations, and Catholics accept a few more books into the canon than Protestants. But the actual content is almost identical across all versions. Pick any verse in the Bible and 95 times out of 100, there's no controversy about what the verse means or whether it's authentic. Differences between Christian denominations are usually due to differences in interpreting the Bible, in extra-biblical doctrines, and in tradition, not differences in the Bible itself. (Early Christianity was actually far more diverse than it is today; I talk about this in Early Christians Believed WHAT?). --Bowlhover (talk) 00:30, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

And to expand on the above points: see Arvind Sharma's The Hindu Gita for the varying ancient- and medieval-time; and Catherine Robinson's Interpretations of the Bhagavad-Gita and Images of the Hindu Tradition for varying modern interpretations assigned to the text. That said, let not all this debate keep you from reading the work. Gita makes for pretty quick and easy reading, and it is only when one tries to collapse it into ONE CORE message (or rather, tries to derive/justify ones existing philosophy) that one runs into such complexity. If you read it as you would read Shakespeare, or Homer, none of this an issue. Abecedare (talk) 04:13, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

The Bhagavad- Gita As It Is is thr Hare Krishna version which is not considered to be accurate by scholars. It depends what you are after - something clear and readable, or something thst goes into detail on the problems of interpretation.Paul B (talk) 22:34, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Something readable and accessible is foremost. Some background info would be fine, but I can also get that on WP. This is just out of interest, so I'd like something I can read and enjoy, ideally without having to reach for a reference book every third word or something. Don't get me wrong; I understand Arjuna and I don't share a lot of common ground and I'll likely need to look some stuff up regardless of the edition. Matt Deres (talk) 02:52, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Oxford's World Classics generally does a great job, and they have a Bhagavad Gita translation here. The translation has 20 pages of introduction and extensive commentary on the text, which you can see using "Look Inside". I've never read it myself, so I can't vouch for this translation specifically, only for the World Classics in general. (Their annotated Bible is superb, if you ever plan on buying one.)

If you find a better translation, let me know. I plan to read the Bhagavad Gita in 18 months or so. --Bowlhover (talk) 07:47, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Matt, there are over 300+ translations of Gita in English (a bibliography of 1891 translations was compiled way back in 1982 by Calleweart and Hemraj), so you definitely don't lack for choice. What translation you prefer will depend upon your taste, and what you intend to get out of it. Assuming you are looking for modern complete translations, in a recent Biography of Gita, Richard Davis highlights the following ones:

• J. A. B. van Buitenen's for its scholarship (although it's not the easiest one to read casually; amazon link)
• Stephen Mitchell's for it's poetry (amazon link)
• Swami Prabhupada's as a devotee's translation (amazon link)
• Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan' as a philosopher's translation (amazon link)

Davis also has pocket reviews for a few other translations that you may be able to see here. Abecedare (talk) 03:44, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

'Red hot coals' on moon

example of total eclipse - not natural colors

There was 'Red hot coals' on the moon according to this page. What does that mean? Is it something that could be seen by people? Apparently there was an earthquake then and also a solar eclipse. Any more info anywhere on these events of 1185? --Christie the puppy lover (talk) 16:07, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

The entry says "Solar eclipse 'Red hot coals' on Moon. Prominences?". Sounds like an attempt to describe what the eclipse looked like as in our picture of prominences during a total eclipse. Rmhermen (talk) 16:36, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

(ec)As I understand it, the "red hot coals" were reported to be visible during the solar eclipse. However, according to List of solar eclipses in the 12th century, the May 1st 1185 solar eclipse was more or less in the middle of the North Atlantic Ocean, so its surprising that anyone saw it. I'd take the report with a grain of salt... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:44, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps this was a reference to what we now call Baily's beads. If the sun was relatively low in the sky at the time of the eclipse, these might appear red, just as the sun appears redder when closer to the horizon (sunrise and sunset). RomanSpa (talk) 18:22, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

That page does give sources although it's not immediately obvious...if you can find them, the ones for the 1185 eclipse are Botley, C.M. 'Some centenaries for 1985'. Journal of the British Astronomical Association, 95, 2, 1985; Journal of the British Astronomical Association, 89, 3, 1979; and Stephenson, F. R. Historical Eclipses and Earth's Rotation. Cambridge University Press, 1997. This sounds like the sort of thing some British or Irish chronicle or annals would have recorded, so hopefully one of those sources mentions which one. Adam Bishop (talk) 19:15, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Thank you - you guys are sweethearts.--Christie the puppy lover (talk) 20:04, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

March 8

Portugal

What legislative bodies has Portugal had?Ohyeahstormtroopers6 (talk) 04:08, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't know but while you're waiting, you might want to browse through Category:Politics of Portugal. Dismas|^(talk) 04:38, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Dismas, I'm afraid that category is somewhat lacking. (Not a critique of you, but rather the lack of info in the articles themselves.) Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 17 Adar 5775 04:40, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Well, our Portuguese articles seem to be in need of a lot of work, but from what I've been able to find, there was a bicameral 'Congress of the Republic' during the First Portuguese Republic, The Corporative Chamber and National Assembly under the Estado Novo, and the Assembly of the Republic today. Hope that's all of them. Like I said, those articles need a lot of work. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 17 Adar 5775 04:40, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Libraries

What was the first public library in America? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.207.45.199 (talk) 04:58, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Depends on how you define "public". There are almost a dozen candidates, ranging from oldest building to house what is now a public library, to the oldest library to allow access to the public, to the oldest tax-supported library, etc. etc. Read this article for information on all of them. --Jayron32 05:08, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Burying somebody on public land?

Is it illegal to bury somebody on public land? Have there been any court cases around it? I'm more curious about it in Western countries, rather than in developing countries where this might be common. Qooterton (talk) 05:01, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

In the U.K., at least, it seems you are required to bury someone in a cemetary or other such place designated for burial. See Burial Act 1857, the full text of which is here. --Jayron32 05:12, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

That act regulates burials, but doesn't forbid them in private ground (provided it's not near a watercourse or might cause other problems). Permission to bury on public land not designated as a burial place would probably not be given except in exceptional circumstances, but burial on private land is not unusual -- I know of three such burials near to where I live. Dbfirs 08:52, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. You can bury someone in your back garden in the UK, but you need to have planning permission (despite it being private land). Also, when you come to sell the house, you have to mention to potential buyers that there is a grave in the garden, which may potentially lower the price of the house considerably. I don't know what rights the new owners would have about what to do with the body, but I'm sure that consulting the local council wouldn't be amiss. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 11:09, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

You do not need planning permission for a burial on private land in the UK, so long as it is for a limited number of people such as family or residents of the property. You do need the landowner's permission, a certificate from the Registrar, and a durable land burial register, setting out the dates, details, etc., which will need to be kept with the deeds of the property. You should also meet Environment Agency guidance (apparently not legally binding) about the protection of water supplies. Source. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:29, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

To be honest, I am pretty sure that I heard that we do need planning permission, as well as all of the above. Maybe I misheard or was given misinformation when talking about the topic (which is not often, by the way). KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 14:52, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

For clarification, you mean public land not specifically set aside for burials? Because cemeteries i.e. land specifically designed as burial grounds may sometimes be public land in a number of Western countries. Nil Einne (talk) 13:36, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

This is likely to be one of those questions where it will depend on which country (or state... or even county or town) you are talking about. It may be illegal in one jurisdiction, and legal in another. Blueboar (talk) 16:01, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

You often hear about someone being cremated and their ashes being spread on what is clearly not private property. However, "ashes" are merely pulverized bone, which is presumably not the health risk that an improperly buried body could be. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:54, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

And yet that often requires permits as well. Which I've never understood. Dismas|^(talk) 04:34, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

In the UK, there is no "public land" as such; it is always owned by somebody, even common land. Therefore, you would need the consent of the land owner. Land owned by local authorities is usually the subject of bye laws which may not specifically exclude burial but would probably prohibit digging holes. Alansplodge (talk) 09:11, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

You can bury qualified people on some public land at least. Clarityfiend (talk) 10:56, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

What sort of qualification are we talking about here? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 18:15, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Clarity linked to Arlington National Cemetery, which explains who "qualifies". I know of someone who's buried there, and I know there was a process the immediate family had to go through, but it got done. Presumably the rules would be similar at other national cemeteries. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:42, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

There is a lot of public land in Alaska, and most of it is wilderness... However I don't know if it is legal to be buried there if you die. Blueboar (talk) 00:57, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Truly, Alaska is a very, very big back yard – Yet, the Inuit have been doing interments there since they crossed the Bering Strait, so who's going to know that your mortal remains have been popped into a hole? It is further north than Detroit. 'Legal' only applies to areas where the law can be enforced, like round and about the vicinity of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue – and I doubt even that sometimes.--Aspro (talk) 01:31, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

What a great advertising slogan, lol: "Alaska--It's Further North than Detroit" μηδείς (talk) 01:59, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

March 9

Georgia the U.S. State

What lawmaking bodies has Georgia the U.S. State had?Mcleod Allen Mueller Hill, aka Ohyeahstormtroopers6, Imperator Universi 03:32, 9 March 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ohyeahstormtroopers6 (talk • contribs)

If you want to include Georgia in all its forms, then according to Province of Georgia it had a bicameral legislature—presumably from the colony's foundation—with the Commons House of Assembly as the lower house and the General Assembly as the upper up to the dissolution of the Georgia Colony during the American Revolution. In 1777, the Georgia General Assembly was founded and was a unicameral body until 1789 (the same year we adopted our current form of federal government), when it became bicameral with a Senate and House of Representatives. That system survives to this day. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 18 Adar 5775 03:53, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Government

Can all government-related institutions be labeled as executive, legislative, or Judicial? Mcleod Allen Mueller Hill, aka Ohyeahstormtroopers6, Imperator Universi 04:27, 9 March 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ohyeahstormtroopers6 (talk • contribs) 04:25, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Those definitions depend on the rule of law, as the legislative branch makes laws, the executive branch enforces them, and the judicial branch judges people under the law, and perhaps judges the laws themselves. In a system where there are no laws, and the absolute ruler just does as he pleases, there really aren't any branches of government (or all branches are controlled by him). Sometimes those branches exist, in theory, but have no real power. StuRat (talk) 06:12, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Ohyeahstormtroopers6 -- The idea of a strict distinction between executive, legislative, and judicial functions was pretty much invented as part of an 18th-century reform agenda (see Separation of powers#Montesquieu's tripartite system); there have been many systems over the centuries without such separations... AnonMoos (talk) 08:30, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

The division of government into "executive", "legislative" and "judicial" to some extent depends on the definitions used, and the lens of political theory through which the various functions are viewed. A good example of a country which does not characterise its institutions using this tripartite system is Taiwan, which uses a quinquepartite system in which governmental functions are divided into "executive", "legislative", "judicial", "control" and "examination". The two unfamiliar (to Western eyes) functions can be best thought of as "independent audit" and "civil service personnel selection". There are obvious advantages to a fully independent auditing function, and many Western governments also have such a function, though it is not regarded as a separate branch of government. The "examination" function has its roots in deep Chinese history: the Chinese imperial bureaucracy had an important function in maintaining and controlling social mobility, and thus provided a mechanism by which otherwise difficult-to-control areas of the empire could be managed and integrated into the body politic. In modern times in Taiwan, the Examination Yuan is largely concerned with quality maintenance. RomanSpa (talk) 12:41, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

• In the United States, the States and the People are not branches of the federal government, but superior to it: "Amendment X The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people." μηδείς (talk) 17:50, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
• Nonetheless, the Constitution is the supreme law of the land, and generally speaking the states cannot deny rights to citizens which the federal grants. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:52, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

• Correct, but a convention of the states could amend or re-write the Constitution. They simply haven't done so. The ninth and tenth amendments are not mere words. μηδείς (talk) 01:56, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

• Just to be complete, at one time anything not expressed in the Enumerated powers ocf Constitution did not directly apply to the states, it took the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution and the process known as "incorporation" for much of the protections guaranteed by the United States Bill of Rights to actually apply to state governments. Prior to the judicial process of incorporation, the phrasing "Congress shall pass no law..." was seen as applying ONLY to the Federal government, meaning the state government was free to shit on every right the Constitution guaranteed people. Since the states law generally applies to how people's day-to-day lives run, most of the Bill of Rights didn't apply to people until incorporation. For example, Congress couldn't pass a law establishing a national church, but states could (and did), see for example Massachusetts had an official state church until 1833; it was not forced to abolish it, but did so of its own accord. --Jayron32 04:17, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

• That's incorrect. Only the First Amendment says anything about the Congress, the following seven amendments are along the lines of no person shall be compelled, denied, subject to, and so forth. Here's the text, although you have to scroll down. The Fourteenth Amendment's a fine thing, but the first ten were not without effect in the states. μηδείς (talk) 04:10, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

The actual question is "Can all government-related institutions be labeled as Executive, Legislative, or Judicial" It doesn't say federal government, just government. I would be hard-pressed to come up with any state government institutions that are not likewise either Executive, Legislative, or Judicial. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:21, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Back to the original question — the answer is "definitely not". See our Ombudsman article. The Scandinavian countries have an ombudsman branch of government: it's definitely not legislative or executive, and it's not judicial either. It's basically like the Internal Affairs office in a US police department. Nyttend (talk) 01:18, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

That sounds similar to various commissions created by the US Congress but who have what amount to executive powers with some quasi-judicial powers. The Federal Communications Commission, for example. Or even more to the point, the Justice Department. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:51, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

But they're generally considered to be executive commissions. If nothing else, they all run on congressionally granted powers; they aren't a separate branch of government. The only ways to have a fourth branch of government are to have it specified in the constitution, or not to have a written constitution. A Google search for <ombudsman "fourth branch of government"> found plenty of relevant resources; this book speaks of the possibility of an "integrity branch of government" being the new fourth branch in the Australian federal government (using "government" in its US sense); this one considers the Ombudsman of the Philippines a fourth branch. Also note that Election commission says that some countries' constitutions specifically declare the electoral commission to be a fourth branch. Nyttend (talk) 02:18, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, they are functionally part of the executive. That fourth branch, if it were to be implemented, could be called the "Oversight" branch. Although they can't be totally autonomous, because they have to report to someone, just as the other branches do. The checks-and-balances in the American system theoretically provide that oversight. But we're not a parliamentary system. So maybe an oversight branch is more necessary in that kind of system. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:56, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

The Filipino system is presidential, not parliamentary, but it too apparently considers the ombudsman a separate branch. Nyttend (talk) 03:11, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

South Africa has the Chapter nine institutions that oversee the activities of the government and report directly to parliament but have no direct judicial powers. I have never seen them being described as a fourth arm but they don't really fit into any of the traditional three. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 09:51, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Pre-European Australian religion

George Frazer says in The Golden Bough:

the aborigines of Australia, the rudest savages as to whom we possess accurate information, magic is universally practised, whereas religion in the sense of a propitiation or conciliation of the higher powers seems to be nearly unknown. Roughly speaking, all men in Australia are magicians, but not one is a priest; everybody fancies he can influence his fellows or the course of nature by sympathetic magic, but nobody dreams of propitiating gods by prayer and sacrifice.

Is Frazer right about this, or is his racismbias shining through? Did the Australian aborigines really have no priests and no prayer or sacrifice before European colonization? --98.232.12.250 (talk) 05:02, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Can't help on the magic vs. religion question, but in anthropological use, the term "priest" usually refers to a full-time religion specialist of a type which doesn't generally exist in "band-level" societies such as those of pre-1788 Australia. However, see Shaman#Oceania... AnonMoos (talk) 08:20, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

• I am confused as to why Frazer was either right, or he was a racist. It's a false dichotomy, and even if his statement were false, I see no reason why it would be called racist in any case. I don't disagree with AnonMoos's link, but unfortunately it gives no sources. In any case, by a priest is normally meant a member of a special trained bureaucratic class of an organized religion. Shamans predate such ideas. They are (counter to the claims of prostitutes) the oldest profession, a guild combining the roles of medicine-man, lore-keeper, and charismatic religious figure. Often hey are berdaches. I have no specific knowledge of Australian Aborigines, but they certainly did not have any organized religion. Not knowing how the OP wants to define his terms, I am not sure we can say more than that. μηδείς (talk) 18:05, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

It's also possible that he could have been right regarding pre-colonial Aboriginal Australian belief systems (not saying he is or isn't), but still racist. Frazer's model still places Europeans at the peak of civilization, and kinda assumes that the Aboriginal Australians never really advanced beyond climbing out of the trees (even though their ancestors would have had to have figured out expert sailing before whitey learned to quit drawing on the walls). Ian.thomson (talk) 18:32, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Wallace's Line which divided Sunda and Sahul (basically, Australia from Eurasia) during the last ice age was 22 miles across, and the ancestors of the current Australians most likely walked there from New Guinea which was then attached by a now submerged land bridge. Asserting that Wallace may have been a racist is like saying Abraham Lincoln may have been a child molester. Unless you have evidence, it's a vicious slur. And Frazer said nothing about Australians climbing down from trees. Calling the rather skilled cave art found in some parts of Europe "whitey drawing on the walls" is simply silly, given such rock art is also found in Australia (and the Americas, and Africa), and the European cave artists were not at that time blue-eyed blonds. μηδείς (talk) 19:08, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

(OP here, different IP) Sorry, I didn't mean to imply there was a dichotomy. I should have said that he could have been biased, since he calls the indigenous peoples "the rudest savages as to whom we possess accurate information". Even if that's true, viewing someone as the rudest savage is not conducive to understanding their belief systems objectively. --98.232.12.250

Rudest savages in that context doesn't mean least polite murderers. It means culturally most like our hunter-gatherer ancestors; relatively uneducated and living in the wild. He was not an Australian anthropologist doing his own research and lying about how brutal or ignorant the Aborigines were. He was writing on comparative mythology based on the sources available to him and in the idiom used at that time. μηδείς (talk) 01:49, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

I doubt there's a single fact that is true of all Aboriginal tribes. There were something like 800 groupings, and while those living adjacent to each other may have understood some of the other's language and shared some of their cultural practices, those living more remotely would not have. To the European eye they were all the same people, but each tribe considered themselves to be as racially and ethnically distinct as the Vietnamese and the Scots. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 18:12, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

If the topic interests you, you can email Claire Bowern at Yale http://pantheon.yale.edu/~clb3/, tell her you edit Wikipedia and are interested in Australian languages (see her talk page offer at Pama-Nyungan languages and she will email you a pdf of Australian Languages: Classification and the comparative method (Current Issues in Linguistic Theory). The consensus among Australianists is that all the languages of Australia form one phylum, like Indo-European, (or better yet, in the mode of its distribution) Niger-Congo, with most of the Aborigines not in the northwest belonging to the Pama-Nyungan subbranch, somewhat like the Bantu languages are a southern subbranch of the Niger-Congo language phylum. μηδείς (talk) 01:49, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Frazer's statement about a lack of worship appears to be false for at least some indigenous Australian peoples. See, for example, our article Rainbow Serpent. Marco polo (talk) 18:46, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

• Yes, Frazer's opinions seem to be mainly reflective of the sterotypes held by some scholars of the era. You can read an intellectual history of the field in Bigotry and religion in Australia, 1865-1950 of the journal Humanities Research. See Chapter 4, Interpreting Aboriginal Religion by Henrika Kuklick, in particular. Abecedare (talk) 19:52, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

"Did the Australian aborigines really have no priests and no prayer or sacrifice..." Can't speak for the Australian aborigines, but the question of what constitutes priests and prayer is an interesting one. Personally I'd say Buddhism has no priests and no prayers - the monks are in the monastery purely to follow their own path to nirvana, not to act as priests, and since Buddhism teaches there is no god you can't very well pray to him. But what's a priest? A good definition is that it's someone who acts as an intermediary between humans and the supernatural, in view of his/her special gifts and/or knowledge. A shaman could be classified as a priest on that basis, and I think the aborigines had shamans (everyone else did). PiCo (talk) 08:11, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

According to Indigenous_Australians#Belief_systems, among some groups were people called Ngangkari who served the roles that shamans/healers/priests do in other religions. A shame we don't yet have an article about them, but it is at least a note. --Jayron32 21:14, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

During the 15th-19th centuries, did European Christians recognize each other as Christians?

I noticed on the ecumenism article that actual ecumenism efforts began somewhat recently in history, which may imply that before that time, each "Christian" denomination was non-ecumenical, parochial, ethnic, and uncooperative with each other. Despite the interdenominational hostilities (Catholics kill Protestants; Protestants kill Catholics), did they nevertheless regard each other as "Christian", however wrong they might perceive other denominations to be on doctrine and practice? Also, did the interdenominational religious persecutions occur in the United States too, or were European Americans forced to assimilate into a melting pot of religious pluralism and tolerance? 66.213.29.17 (talk) 17:00, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

It depends on where, when, and even who you're talking about. "Europe in the 15th-19th centuries" is actually a pretty broad category. John Dee claimed to be Anglican in England and Catholic abroad, and Paracelsus was comfortable in either Protestant or Catholic churches. However, Reginald Scot blamed Catholicism for witchcraft, and made an early form of the Protestant slander (later codified by Alexander Hislop) that Catholicism is just quasi-Christianized paganism.

Ben Franklin's autobiography generally describes most American religious groups getting along, treating each other with a "live and let live" mentality. There's little point in showing animosity toward Quakers if that means you lose your medical care in the process, or Methodists if that means you lose the help of the best carpenter in town, or Presbyterians if that means your children can no longer attend school. That said, there probably were instances where a Protestant businessman would refuse service to a Catholic (though under some pretense besides religion), since even into the 20th century there was a sense of "otherness" about Catholics among American Protestants.

IIRC, renewed studies into Gnosticism were partly the result of Catholics trying to accuse Protestants of being just another Gnostic group, and Protestants seeking to refute that. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:22, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

"Quasi-Christianized paganism" may not be such a bad thing. Christianity in general developed largely in Europe, and so it has various and countless allusions and relics of the past. People are always influenced by current events and history, so forming a new religion (Christianity) from old indigenous religions (European paganisms) might be a way to continue the cultural and familial heritage. I remember reading something about the Virgin Mary in a peer-reviewed journal(Kinship of the Virgin Mary), and it proposes the development of the Virgin Mary in Roman Catholic thought and culture: that perhaps the Virgin Mary is a transformation of a mother goddess figure in the old European paganisms. 66.213.29.17 (talk) 17:48, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

There's a case for contextualization and syncretism, but Hislop and his ilk made the claim that the Papal office and the reverence for Mary were nothing but the continued worship of an imagined cult for Nimrod and Semiramis that adopted a Christian gloss, rather than the Virgin Mary being a part of Christianity that gained new contexts among formerly pagan peoples. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:07, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Regarding IP 66's comment, compare the local parading of various Virgin Mary statues (often with oddly non-Semitic attributes) to the Roman practice of evocatio. That may be the origin of many non-historical and locally venerated saints. μηδείς (talk) 18:10, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

As Ian.thomson says, the answer to your question depends on the time and the place. During the 16th and 17th centuries, when post-Reformation conflicts were at their most heated, Protestants and Catholics often did question one another's credentials as Christians. Protestants saw Catholicism as a perversion of Christianity as revealed in the Bible, and Catholics saw Protestants as heretics. Even in North America, especially in the 17th century, there was definitely persecution of people who did not adhere to the dominant sect in many colonies. Pennsylvania, where Benjamin Franklin lived, was something of an exception in allowing religious freedom for all Christians, a fact that indicates that in the eyes of some, at least by the late 17th century when Pennsylvania was founded, Catholics and various kinds of Protestants were all viewed as Christians. However, in Massachusetts Bay Colony, religious persecution was widespread, such that dissenters such as Roger Williams and Anne Hutchinson were forced into exile. Catholics were banned from many colonies, which is the main reason why Maryland was founded as a haven for Catholics. By the 19th century, in most parts of the Western world, most Protestants and Catholics grudgingly viewed one another as (flawed) Christians, but as Ian.thomson points out, in many countries where Protestantism was dominant, including the United States, discrimination against Catholics persisted into the 20th century. This is original research, but I happen to know that a golf club in the New York town where I grew up did not admit Catholics (or Jews) until the 1960s. Marco polo (talk) 18:17, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Discrimination against Catholics at a golf club? What does that have to do with religion? Or perhaps, the people didn't want to associate with Catholics, because they feared that the Catholics would proselytize them? 66.213.29.17 (talk) 19:36, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Did Swedish Lutherans and German Lutherans see each other Christians? What about German Lutherans and Greek Orthodox Christians? Was there any hostility among Protestant denominations? 66.213.29.17 (talk) 18:37, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

I am not Alexander fucking Hislop. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:47, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Sorry for the misreading, Ian; I've corrected my comment.

As for the follow-up question, certainly Lutherans from different countries would have seen one another as Christians. As for Greek Orthodox Christians, certainly there would have been a recognition that, like the Catholics, they thought themselves to be Christians, but 16th or 17th century Lutherans would have seen the Greek Orthodox as guilty of many of the same perversions as Catholics, such as the cult of saints. Marco polo (talk) 19:04, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't have a source with me, but I seem to remember that Martin Luther admired the Orthodox church for rejecting the papacy. Perhaps, there are some Lutheran-Orthodox connections there? 66.213.29.17 (talk) 19:15, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

The Orthodox were credited for not being "papists", but they were often still seen as corrupt for their veneration of saints, elaborate religious art, monasticism, and other practices without a scriptural base. Marco polo (talk) 20:14, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

I suspect the overemphasis on scripture may influence perceptions of the Bible among nonreligious people. Many atheists, such as Richard Dawkins, seem to take a very Protestant view of scripture, reading the scripture without any extrabiblical traditional interpretation or guidance from the church fathers. Richard Dawkins was raised Anglican, so he might have gotten this approach to scripture from his own childhood church. If he had been raised Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, then he would criticize the scripture by disagreeing with the church fathers or something. 66.213.29.17 (talk) 20:36, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

"Emphasis" maybe; "overemphasis" is definitely a Point Of View. Alansplodge (talk) 20:59, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Despite the rhetoric of denominational bigotry, I think all Christian denominations have recognized that the other denominations were Christians... distinct from complete non-believers like Jews, Muslems, Hindus, etc. Blueboar (talk) 01:09, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

I think there might well have been a difference with some of the restorationist groups. In general, I think the best way to determine if one Christian group recognizes another as Christian is to consider whether they see the baptisms of other groups as valid to their own group. If they do, then they would most likely have to be seen as seeing the other group as at least Christian in a significant way, even if it is also heretical to their own beliefs. John Carter (talk) 01:16, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Blueboar, see Liever Turks dan Paaps, and run a search for "antichrist" in Reformation Papacy. Thankfully, the concept of "Popery-is-Antichrist" has been weakening for quite a long time, and it's remembered largely by the historians. John Carter has a good approach. Bear in mind that "John Doe is a Christian" and "John Doe calls himself a Christian" are not equivalent statements in many people's minds: many people use the former phrase to refer to people who follow the actual teachings of Christ and the earliest Christians, +as opposed to people who follow teachings that are significantly wrong (i.e. heretics), and who have been justified (sorry for the technical term), or to use the vernacular, are following the Bible's "plan of salvation". Like anything else, of course, some groups disagree radically on what those actual teachings are; Oneness Pentecostalism is deemed heresy by most Christians because it rejects the concept of the Trinity, and different views of justification have historically been the biggest difference between Catholics and Protestants. Nyttend (talk) 13:08, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

• The important thing to remember about the European religious wars (and religious wars in general, including the ones we find ourselves in today) aren't really about religion per se, except around the edges. The root causes of these conflicts are the same things we fight over always: economics, access to resources, political power, etc. Religion provides a convenient excuse, and an ex-post-facto jusitification for such conflicts, but they aren't really about religion. The underprivileged revolt against who they perceive is oppressing them, political factions vie for supremacy, leaders fight other leaders for land and hegemony, these are what we fight over. Take any religious war, and you find the root cause is most often one of these core issues. In the time period described, 15th-19th century Christendom, you find nearly all religious conflicts have an economic or political basis. Take the Thirty Years War, often cited as the biggest and most important of the Protestant-Catholic wars. Really, it was about internal political conflicts within the Holy Roman Empire and then with foreign powers coming in to take advantage of said conflicts. There's a whole lot going on before one even gets to the whole religious issue: issues of foreign influence within Germany, the Aristocracy exerting political control over the Emperor, ethnic issues between Germans and non-Germans within the empire, etc. Religion was at best an aggravating factor, or a motivation to fight, but religious differences are rarely, on their own, the primary cause. It's a nice thing for political leaders to tell the people that will be dying so they themselves can consolidate power "Kill them because you should hate them because they have a different religion". But that's about it. Prior to being fed such propaganda by their leaders, the average person is too busy feeding their family and just living to care about such matters.--Jayron32 13:40, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Venezuela

What lawmaking bodies has Venezuela had, in all it's forms?Mcleod Allen Mueller Hill, aka Ohyeahstormtroopers6, Imperator Universi 20:32, 9 March 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ohyeahstormtroopers6 (talk • contribs)

Are you going to ask this for all 194 (or so) countries in the world? LongHairedFop (talk) 21:25, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Maybe, over an extended period of time. Why?2602:306:C541:CC60:ACDE:A050:9B28:BE5A (talk) 21:56, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Because, you can do all of your own research by looking in Wikipedia articles like "History of XXXX" and "Politics of XXXX" articles, and then following links from THOSE articles around. That is exactly what anyone you ask here is going to do, and now that you know how to do it, you don't have to ask us to do it for you... --Jayron32 13:20, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Okay, at the risk of angering you yet again , I would like to remind you that I am not forcing you to answer my questions. If I really needed the answers to these questions, I could just do research myself. But I think it's more fun to ask a question and get a helpful response. I won't complain if that response takes a while. Most of the questions I ask, including this one, are merely curiosity questions, and not just questions for a class. I can and do often help myself, but I also like to ask questions and get a helpful response. I am truly sorry if you cannot understand that.Mcleod Allen Mueller Hill, aka Ohyeahstormtroopers6, Imperator Universi 18:26, 10 March 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ohyeahstormtroopers6 (talk • contribs)

How could being spoon-fed be more fun than finding the information yourself??? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:19, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Well, it does sound pretty ridiculous when you put it that way. I probably I should have done more searching on Wikipedia to see if there were any tools that could make searching easier. Mcleod Allen Mueller Hill, aka Ohyeahstormtroopers6, Imperator Universi 21:55, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

March 10

market

Is more correct "immovable property market" or "immovable properties market" or other?--95.247.22.119 (talk) 10:59, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Presumably you talking about Immovable property - as such it may depend on where in the world you wish to say the expression. In the UK, we would say "the property market".--Dweller (talk) 12:12, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

And in the US, you say "real estate". Note, however, that houses can sometimes be moved, although at great expense and/or risk, so it's normally only done with historic buildings. (And of course mobile homes can be moved, but that's not what we're talking about here.) StuRat (talk) 16:14, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Which Progressive policy influenced the Seventeenth Amendment?

Which Progressive policy influenced the Seventeenth Amendment? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 23.25.170.174 (talk) 15:52, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Welcome to the Wikipedia Reference Desk. Your question appears to be a homework question. I apologize if this is a misinterpretation, but it is our aim here not to do people's homework for them, but to merely aid them in doing it themselves. Letting someone else do your homework does not help you learn nearly as much as doing it yourself. Please attempt to solve the problem or answer the question yourself first. If you need help with a specific part of your homework, feel free to tell us where you are stuck and ask for help. If you need help grasping the concept of a problem, by all means let us know. You can read about it yourself at Seventeenth Amendment to the United States Constitution which does describe some of the political and social background to the Amendment. --Jayron32 15:56, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Also note that there are four constitutions that have had a seventeenth amendment. Jayron has assumed that you are United States (which is where your IP address resolves to), however for your future reference you should state which country you are talking about. LongHairedFop (talk) 17:13, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Of these four, how many were influenced by Progressive policy? —Tamfang (talk) 17:56, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Margaret Thatcher

I have a question about Thatcherism: When Margaret Thatcher was carrying out her policies in the 1980's, how did the British 'Left' go about responding to the challenges of Thatcherism? --Roadinffrog (talk) 20:10, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

We have articles titled Premiership of Margaret Thatcher and Thatcherism that contain critique from the left. --Jayron32 21:09, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

A good place to start would be our article on Thatcherism. I would also recommend you read a copy of Quintin Hogg's 1976 Dimbleby Lecture, Elective dictatorship (if you are a university it will be in the politics library; if you are at school you may have to search around a bit for a copy). Once you are clear on the general modus operandi of Thatcherism and the UK government at that time, you'll have some context for understanding what options were available for the Left to organise its response.

Broadly, we can split the Left's response to Thatcherism into two main strands: parliamentary opposition and extra-parliamentary action. As you'll see from the references I've already mentioned, and as you should understand from your general knowledge of UK constitutional theory, a determined government with a united party forming a clear majority in the House of Commons is largely invulnerable to opposition tactics in the big "set piece" debates. Parliamentary opposition thus necessarily had to consist of work during the "committee" stages of the government's bills, and speechifying in preparation for the next election (that is, the next opportunity for the Left to get real power). The parliamentary Left was split between those who recognised the need for the Thatcherite reforms, and those who sought to preserve the explicitly socialist (as opposed to social democratic) traditions of the Labour Party. Much of the Left's parliamentary energy was expended in sniping between those two factions, leading to the formation of the SDP in the early 1980s. This split of the parliamentary Left lasted through much of the 1980s, and may have reduced the effectiveness of the Left's parliamentary opposition to Thatcherism.

Extra-parliamentary opposition consisted, to a large extent, of activities by organised labour, much of it under the auspices of the Trades Union Congress and/or individual Trades Unions. The great culmination of this was the famous UK miners' strike (1984–85).

I'll leave it to my colleagues to flesh out this "bare bones" summary! RomanSpa (talk) 21:20, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

A really good framework to add detail to. Remember, "the Left" was very far from being a monolith; in fact it was deeply divided, and with no agreement about to respond to Thatcher. You might find Hall and Jacques' The Politics of Thatcherism useful. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:31, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

This is how us Socialists in the North paid tribute to that witch. Do you know why she is called Britain's last female prime minister? Because she IS the last. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 22:05, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Please delete or hat your comment. It's nothing to do with the question, and in no way answers it. RomanSpa (talk) 22:41, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Does it not illustrate one answer to "how did the British 'Left' go about responding..."? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:57, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks BB, for backing me up. She actually destroyed the North's economy, because we are socialist. She was capitalist. We were very happy to see her leave office. When she died, to be honest, none of us cared. We were too busy rebuilding the very stuff she had destroyed. THIS is how lefties think. This is a video of Liverpool football fans before a game with Sunderland (another city which she destroyed) singing together, the same chant. We stand together against a common foe. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 04:46, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Her buddy Ronald Reagan likewise set the tone for quite a few of the bad things that have happened to America in the intervening thirty-plus years. I wonder, though, how much of the vitriol directed at Thatcher was either because of, or enhanced by, the mere fact of her being female? I recall Monty Python making fun of her clear back in the 60s. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:45, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Her gender has nothing to do with it, her disastrous policies everything. 82.21.7.184 (talk) 07:57, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

I believe that what Kage-chan was getting at is that Thatcher put an indelible stain on the office that has impacted later female MPs. 13:37, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

That is exactly what I was saying. She was our first female PM, and it's just an unfortunate fact that anyone with any living memory of her will not elect another. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 14:34, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Why is it that a reviled male PM will be followed by another male PM, and another, and another ...; but a reviled female PM has to wait till she's long dead and half-forgotten before the electorate would trust another female? If it's supposed to be about their ability to run the country, and not what's between their legs, why the difference? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:27, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

I am not sexist. I don't even vote, as I believe all politicians are just mouths with suits and don't do anything. But the fact remains, that she was our first female PM, and she destroyed the country, so there will not be another for the foreseeable future, because we still have the memory of what she did to her own country, saying she herself came from a working class background, from some bakery, or whatever. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 21:59, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

People didn't like Gordon Brown very much, but would they refuse to vote for another candidate named Brown just because of his name? Or another Scot just because of his nationality? Or another person born in February? Or another graduate of the University of Edinburgh? Of course not (times 4). Why are those sorts of things rightly considered irrelevant to governmental capacity, while sex is not? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 00:40, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

See Michael Foot, Neil Kinnock, Militant tendency and Arthur Scargill for some of the background reading. --Dweller (talk) 23:35, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

• The left's response to Thatcher was Tony Blair. μηδείς (talk) 03:59, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Only an American would call Tony Blair left-wing. 82.21.7.184 (talk) 07:31, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

The Tony Blair article indicates he identified as "left of center", so he considered himself to be at least somewhere on that wing. However, working hand-and-foot with Bush on invading Iraq doesn't really sound like a typical liberal approach - more like a Neo-Con. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:40, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

What he said isn't relevant, how he acted is. Blair wasn't with Labour, he was with New Labour, completely different beast from the Labour in the Witch's Thatcher's years. Indeed far more 'neo-con' and not 'liberal', although both of those terms have very little meaning outside of the US. 82.21.7.184 (talk) 07:57, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

I'd tend to agree with both sides. The reaction of much of the Left eventually was to move to the Right. But you're both missing the point of the question, which is that this move to Blairism came during Major's premiership, after Labour managed somehow to lose the 1992 election and after the sad death of John Smith in 1994. The OP question was about "When Margaret Thatcher was carrying out her policies in the 1980's". --Dweller (talk) 11:27, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

For some satirical insight into how we thought of Thatcher's government back in those days, I would suggest watching Spitting Image (available on YouTube). The only good thing she did was allow my dad (a trade union leader) to organize strikes, so I was able to get more time with him. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 11:22, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

In Liverpool, organising others not to work is considered morally superior to organising others to work. 86.144.114.188 (talk) 11:39, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

The evolution of the left began during Thatcher's term, not during Major's. Blair's election was the result. This is paralleled in the US where Jimmy Carter's defeat by Reagan led ultimately to Bill Clinton winning as a pragmatically rebranded "New Democrat". Blair is a much more historically contextual answer than "protests". μηδείς (talk) 16:40, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Not to be confused with a New Democrat, of course. --65.94.51.62 (talk) 16:58, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

I think Kinnock's floundering over Clause IV gives the lie to any notion of Blairism predating, erm, Tony Blair. As I stated above, the crackdown on Militant is apposite for the OP, but it's hard to credit Kinnock (or even more so Foot) with really evolving the left in reaction to Thatcherism. --Dweller (talk) 17:17, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

We all seem to have forgotten Derek Hatton. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 17:26, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Dweller linked to him above (Militant tendency#Militant in Liverpool), and I certainly haven't forgotten being "sacked" by him (along with all other employees of Liverpool City Council) when he hired a fleet of taxis to deliver redundancy notices to the entire workforce. Nor have I forgotten how schools were starved of funding during those years (-- the blame was probably shared). Dbfirs 21:20, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Speaking personally, the women of the British Left responded to the challenges of Thatcherism by organising themselves and caring for the families of striking trades unionists (when we weren't trying to keep our own families together). Some of us also left our families and protested against nuclear weapons. It brought about lasting friendships and respect borne out of adversity. --TammyMoet (talk) 16:08, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Thatcher came to power after the ghastly winter of discontent, when James Callaghan, the Prime Minister, completely lost control of the Trade Unions. That was such a shattering event - Leicester Square turned into a huge open-air rubbish dump; the churches being measured up to be used as emergency morgues, the sheer selfishness of the unions - that there was a national acceptance that things had to change. Comparable events in subsequent years were John Major's Black Wednesday and Gordon Brown's banking collapse - both events of such ineptitude that they have put their respective parties out of power for a generation and act as a poisoned chalice to their political successors. Labour's response to Thatcher was, firstly, to move to the left in the 1983 election - the manifesto waspishly described by Gerald Kaufman as 'the longest suicide note in history' - and in so moving - under the bizarre figure of Michael Foot, who looked more like an animated corpse than someone able to run the country - managed to split itself, with right-wingers moving into the SDP. Thatcher was helped by leftie headbangers such as Militant Tendency and their entryist tactics in relation to the Labour party, and also by the successful conclusion to the Falklands War.

After the 1983 election, which Thatcher won with an increased majority, Arthur Scargill decided to try to bring down the government. His refusal to hold a strike ballot and dictatorial management style managed to split the strikers, with the more sensible lot branching off to form the Union of Democratic Mineworkers. Given the violence on the picket lines, the Labour party found it hard to offer robust political support. Disputes such as Wapping were also politically difficult to support, not only given the violence but also the defence of 'Spanish practices'. Conservatives and other opponents of these strikes were able to paint them as a defence of well-paid privilege and a Luddite-like opposition to technological progress. The Labour party was now run by Neil Kinnock, who was unable to impose control on his own party (Tony Benn challenging for control). He was widely derided as 'the Welsh windbag' for his overblown and long-winded oratory. The other major political issue of the time was the stationing of US nuclear missiles on British soil which, with unerring brilliance, Kinnock managed to oppose with suggesting any credible alternative. Throughout this period, as the abuses of the Trade Unions were being systematically dismantled under Norman Tebbit and his three great Trade Union Acts (1980, 1982, and 1984), the economy was being deregulated (most obviously in 'Big Bang' and through privatisation), and growing strongly. So it lasted until Thatcher's own defenestration in 1992.

Some of Thatcher's policies - in particular mass privatisations and the sale of Council houses - had the effect of cutting the ground from under the feet of her political opponents. Is it a false memory, or do I really remember stupid old Roy Hattersley trying to persuade people that Council ownership was better because everyone had the same colour front door, and that created a pleasing streetscape? Unfortunately for him, most people decided that they would prefer to own (and paint) their own front door, not someone else's. The demonstrable success of the economy, and the rising living standards that followed, rendered whole swathes of the opposition's policy pointless: nobody (sensible) wanted a return to nationalised industry and a defense of Trade Union privilege; the Falklands War and threat from the Soviet Union made the policy of unilateral nuclear disarmament a minority enthusiasm. Ultimately, the opposition was forced to accept that its policy positions had been overtaken by events, and they were quietly dropped, firstly by Kinnock and later by Blair (Clause IV). Thatcher's legacy has been to create a free-market consensus, and her opposition has been reduced to a party appealing to public-sector privilege and welfare recipients, finding much of its mass support in the ranks of the immigrants that it allowed in between 1997 and 2010. 109.149.28.142 (talk) 21:44, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

I think you mean the 1983 election. RomanSpa (talk) 01:44, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

On a purely technical issue, Scargill's opponents were the Union of Democratic Mineworkers. I'm not sure if the above redlink should be redirected, but we do have an article on them. Tevildo (talk) 22:04, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Ah yes, apologies. Edits made. What a great Prime Minister she was, and what a useless lot have come after.

Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive, But to be young was very heaven! 109.149.28.142 (talk) 06:48, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your answers everyone, I have enjoyed reading this. Aside from Parliamentary and Extra-Parliamentary action, were there any other 'public' responses to the challenges of Thatcherism, aside from Red Wedge? --Roadinffrog (talk) 13:01, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Although Derek Hatton gets a mention above, nobody has mentioned Militant Tendency, a left wing faction within the Labour Party, which made many moderate voters think twice about voting them. It wasn't until Kinnock had sorted that one out that Labour became electable (in my view). Alansplodge (talk) 13:12, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Actually the IP did mention Militant Tendency. Nil Einne (talk) 13:32, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Oh yes, Dweller did about halfway down. Sorry. Alansplodge (talk) 17:40, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

March 11

Alledged election fraud

There is a sentence "Monarchists advanced suspicions of fraud that were never allowed to be proved." in the beginning of the article Italian constitutional referendum, 1946, but this is not elaborated upon in the article. Could someone explain what the fraud was about and why there were suspictions about it? Snowsuit Wearer (talk|contribs) 00:02, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

It's apparently citing a book, and given the lack of any other info, it could be a POV-push. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:55, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

There's more information in the Italian wiki article [2]. --Xuxl (talk) 09:49, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Unmarried companions and scholars and died like that

Besides Imam Nawawi and Salman Al Farsi, which other companions of Prophet Muhammad Peace be upon him and scholars died as unmarried men? I rather not to use the word bachelor or single because people might think that they were not interested in sex. Please and thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.29.33.30 (talk) 03:38, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia has an article titled List of Sahabah which names many of Muhammad's companions. It would provide a good source for you to start your research. --Jayron32 04:08, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

6th program FOCAC 2015

I tried to research 2015 FOCAC but it didn't say about what month will 6th conference occur? March? June? October 2015? How many African leaders will participate in the 2015 (6th program) FOCAC meeting besides Jacob Zuma will anybody from Malawi, Senegal, Zambia, Guinea participate. Is Xi Jinping going to be the coordinator of 6th program of 2015 FOCAC? Because I tried googleling they just said it will be in South Africa and Xi Jinping (I don't know if anybody else) will participate, any other leaders besides Jacob Zuma will participate. I just know by the article FOCAC program goes every three years, so this year we are suppose to have another one.--107.202.105.233 (talk) 04:00, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Art can't be replicated?

A long time ago, a professor claimed that one defining characteristic of art was that it could not be replicated, or it would cheapen its value. He made one exception for mass-produced well-engineered manufactured goods, though, such as high-tech refrigerators and television sets. Why are refrigerators and television sets and electronic devices not considered art, even though they involve a lot of originality and creativity in the creation process? 140.254.226.189 (talk) 16:03, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

It all depends on your definition. OXO and Apple computers are both renowned for mass-produced, yet artistic, industrial design. StuRat (talk) 16:10, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

There were several copies made of famous works, often by apprentices of the master who created them. Reproductions of out-of-copyright works are fairly common as well; the often cost little more than the time of the artist who makes them. For paintings, prints can be churned out for little cost. The aesthetics of prints are a different matter. In general the easier it is to make something, then then competition tends to drive down prices, however with brand prestige, luxury items can sell for far more than they cost to manufacture, compared to mass-market brands. LongHairedFop (talk) 16:49, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Also, some artists (such as Jeff Koons, Alberto Giacometti, or ahem, Peter Lik) themselves produce multiple editions of the same work, which in some situations can paradoxically enhance the market value of each individual piece. As Felix Salmon notes:

It’s entirely rational to think that value goes down as edition size goes up—that if a sculpture is in an edition of six, then it will be worth less than if it were unique or in an edition of two. But the art market is weird, and doesn’t work like that—or, at least, it doesn’t work like that anymore, since it has become an extension of the luxury-goods market. In order for an artist to have value as a brand, he has to have a certain level of recognizability—and for that he needs a critical mass of work. Artists with low levels of output (Morandi, say) generally sell for lower prices than artists with high levels of output—the prime example being Andy Warhol. The more squeegee paintings that Gerhard Richter makes, the more they’re worth.

And I should clarify that this is not some newfangled phenomenon, but an established practice esp. for sculpture, eg see List of Thinker sculptures. Abecedare (talk) 21:18, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Cultural appropriation may be relevant. Those pointless plastic Tiki statues probably had value once. Now "Tiki culture" means the other thing in encyclopedias. InedibleHulk (talk) 21:47, March 11, 2015 (UTC)

Industrial design may explain why fridges aren't art. If the fridgemaker herself had come up with the idea, it'd be craft-based, but the committee style cheapens it (in a meaningful sense, not dollar-wise). InedibleHulk (talk) 21:55, March 11, 2015 (UTC)

I can't really disagree with that, yet there must be a bit more to it. Cars, particularly high-end ones, are often discussed/valued/critiqued on values that are quite similar to those used to examine more typical artistic works. Many car enthusiasts would consider the shape/colour/textures of a car to have the same kind of aesthetics as a sculpture, for example. If that's true and car design counts as "art", then it would seem that a nice fridge could also be art. Having taken some classes in the anthropological examination of art, it seems to me that the difference between the fridge and the car and the sculpture is not in the number of designers or how it was crafted, but how they are received. Fridges aren't art only because there isn't currently a community regarding them that way. At the same time, the designer/artist/engineer responsible for the creation would also be of the same mindset. In other words, if neither creator nor audience considers something art - then it ain't. When they do - it is. Matt Deres (talk) 13:39, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

• To the original question, fine art is usually considered something that is contemplated for its own sake, "ars gratia artis" and not utilitarian, so the comparison with refrigerators is a bit off, although of course we care about the aesthetic details of expensive objects like cars and furniture and appliances. As for reproduction, there's a difference between the rarity of an original painting, manuscript, etc., and its reproduction. Novels are written to be read, music composed to be heard, and dramas produced to be watched by large audiences. (Abecedare's points above are also quite relevant.) Nevertheless, first prints, autographed copies, animation stills, and other unique objects have much higher value than, say, a 2012 printing of Moby Dick, which you can probably get for a penny and shipping at Amazon. μηδείς (talk) 17:30, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Recording of evidence from a closed case?

Hello, I'm writing a story that involves a closed murder case where the killer was never found. An important part of the evidence is a phone recording. I was wondering, would it be possible for the average Joe who is unrelated to the case to get their hands on the recording?

Thanks! 76.216.209.128 (talk) 20:10, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Well, depending on your jurisdiction, you could try a Freedom of Information Act request. Those are often used by the media to get material for their stories from supposedly public records. The organizations that receive the request, can and do, however, charge you for the time to retrieve and copy the records. Also they can deny the request with a reasonable explanation. In this case, they might want to keep some details hidden from the public, so that if somebody confesses, they can verify the confession with those missing details. StuRat (talk) 20:25, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Walter de Coutances

Our article says, On 17 November 1184 Coutances was translated to the diocese of Rouen, becoming Archbishop of Rouen... Later it says, Coutances hesitated about the translation to Rouen, as the see there was poorer than Lincoln, but as an archbishopric rather than a bishopric it was of a higher status. The medieval chronicler William of Newburgh wrote that eventually Coutances' ambition overcame his greed, and he agreed to the translation. When does that mean that officially took office at Rouen then?--Christie the puppy lover (talk) 22:12, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

According to our article in French, section "Évêque puis archevêque", his solemn (or pompous) entry at Rouen happened on 24 February, 1185. (referencing Léon Alfred Jouen (canon) (preface by. André du Bois de La Villerabel), La cathédrale de Rouen, Rouen and Paris, Defontaine / Aug. Picard,‎ 1932, LXXIV Pl. - 166 p., p. 14) ---Sluzzelin talk 22:29, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Merci beaucoup. --Christie the puppy lover (talk) 10:50, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

de rien ... except I messed up and had left the wrong link (to English instead of to French WP). Fixed now ... finally. ---Sluzzelin talk 20:31, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

The five Coles brother knights

George Coles (entrepreneur) and his brothers Arthur, Kenneth, Edgar and Norman Coles were all knighted for their services to Australian business. I seem to recall reading that there was no other case of 5 brothers all receiving knighthoods, but I can't confirm this anywhere. Can anyone help? Thanks. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:28, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

I would guess that this has happened at least a few times with royal brothers. For example, the five sons of King Edward III of England who survived childhood (Edward, Prince of Wales, Lionel, Duke of Clarence, John, Duke of Lancaster, Edmund, Duke of York and Thomas, Duke of Gloucester) were all knighted (indeed all were Knights of the Garter). The seven sons of King George III of the United Kingdom who survived childhood also all seen to have been knights. Proteus (Talk) 16:04, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. I was thinking of non-royal persons who actually earned their awards (the royals seem to get honours just for being royal, rather than for any meritorious service to a field of human endeavour). I know of a few cases of two knighted brothers, but don't know of any three brothers, let alone four or five, apart from the Coleses. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:05, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

If we include damehooods, there were the three Sitwell siblings: Dame Edith Sitwell, Sir Osbert Sitwell and Sir Sacheverell Sitwell. There's gotta be a list of these things somewhere. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:32, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

March 12

God, King and Democracy

We do not answer requests for opinion or debate. This is not a forum. AndyTheGrump (talk) 09:30, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
God is king. But why king? Democracy. Democracy is better. Nowadays most countries are democracies. Things have changed. Vanhopt (talk) 04:15, 12 March 2015 (UTC) Well, if God created us all, then it's more of a parent/child relationship, and most families aren't democracies, at least as far as kids having an equal say in all decisions. And how exactly could you have a democracy in deciding how to run the universe, with God having one vote to humanity's 7 billion votes ? Of course, there's the philosophy of the watchmaker God, where he created the universe but now leaves us to run our own affairs. StuRat (talk) 06:11, 12 March 2015 (UTC) God is presumed or hoped to be a benevolent king, at least in theory. The hard-line theory is that He created us, therefore he can do whatever He likes with us. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:08, 12 March 2015 (UTC) God doesn't exist. Your question is meaningless. 82.21.7.184 (talk) 07:48, 12 March 2015 (UTC) The existence or non-existence of God is not provable. The statements "God exists" or "God does not exist" are nothing more than personal opinions. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:08, 12 March 2015 (UTC) We are supposed to use facts at the reference desk, not fairy tales. The fact of the matter is that the postulated Judeo-Christian god (or indeed any deity) is incompatible with the laws of science, therefore is a figment of peoples imagination. Fgf10 (talk) 08:33, 12 March 2015 (UTC) Got a rigorous proof of that? It will come as a colossal surprise to a lot of people. (That said, the original question is pretty meaningless.) AlexTiefling (talk) 08:55, 12 March 2015 (UTC) Well, in the UK, the Queen reigns by the grace of Parliament and the government is appointed by the Queen following an election, so the monarchy and democracy are intertwined and have been for centuries. Alansplodge (talk) 09:12, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Cuba

Cuba is a poor country so why does it have a high life expectancy and a high literacy rate? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.241.116.90 (talk) 04:30, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Because the government places a high priority on health care in Cuba ("The Cuban government ... assumes fiscal and administrative responsibility for the health care of all its citizens") and education in Cuba ("Cuba spends 10 percent of its central budget on education, compared with ... just 2 percent in the United States"). Of course, it helps that they only pay doctors "as much as $67 a month" ... and that's after a huge 2014 raise.[3] Clarityfiend (talk) 05:32, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. There are some things that do work better in a command economy. Saying "Everyone must attend school and get regular medical care" results in a better educated and healthier population than saying "You can attend school and get medical care, if you feel like it, and can afford it". Of course, there is a middle road, and many liberal but still capitalist economies, like in the Nordic nations, also do exceptionally well in both categories. StuRat (talk) 06:05, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

How do GNP. life expectancy and literacy in Cuba from before communism compare to the rates in neighboring Latin-American countries?Edison (talk) 20:19, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Russian literature

Does The Russian literature belong to western literature?--80.117.219.220 (talk) 14:59, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

excuse me, I find out the Answer in page western literature.--80.117.219.220 (talk) 15:13, 12 March 2015 (UTC)