Talk:Adolf Hitler

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Why is this here?

two passages in Mein Kampf mention the use of poison gas:

At the beginning of the Great War, or even during the War, if twelve or fifteen thousand of these Jews who were corrupting the nation had been forced to submit to poison-gas . . . then the millions of sacrifices made at the front would not have been in vain. (Volume 2, Chapter 15 "The Right to Self-Defence").

These tactics are based on an accurate estimation of human weakness and must lead to success, with almost mathematical ce rtainty, unless the other side also learns how to fight poison gas with poison gas. The weaker natures must be told that here it is a case of to be or not to be. (Volume 1, Chapter 2 "Years of Study and Suffering in Vienna")

While I dont oppose this being somewhere, it being shoved under 'World War I service' seems out of place and makes the article look like trash. I dont dare edit it myself as I imagine it would quickly get reverted. user:ratzinger81

Kurt Tucholsky, an jewish "comedian", wrote this sentences some years before Hitler, not about jews, but the "bourgoise" / citizens. He was talking about the first World War. Hitler just changed the group that should be killed by poison-gas. So you cannot say that he already had been thinking of the gas-chambers in this years. I think Hitler knew about this quote of Tucholsky, when he wrote this sentence...! Greetings, Rheinfall!

Religious Beliefs

I was quite sickened by the chapter regarding Hitler's 'relgious beliefs'. The entire slant of the chapter amounts to, "Well, you see, because Hitler came from a Catholic upbringing it's the Catholics and their faith who are actually to blame for the Holocaust". There's no way around it - these various edits have been used in this section to portray Hitler's evils as the collective responsibility of christianity. Whereas of course the truth about the Bible is that all of the massacring takes place in the Old Testament and not the New Testament.

Adolf Hitler viewed the Christian faith only in political terms. Where it suited him to 'play christian' he would do so for a few extra votes or the confidence of the people. Next on the list after the murder of the jews were the clergy and lay faithful (as evidenced by the actions of the German army in Poland and all over Europe...even within Germany itself). There are no winners in this pathetic game of 'My God is bigger than your God' and I hope the players in it realise how malicious their actions appear. Heinrich Himmler once made a long reference to the intense rigour of the Jesuit Order and mentioned how he had based the hierarchy of the SS on the Jesuit example. I suppose this means that the Jesuits are all murderers too?!

Such puerile foolishness.

Grow up. Christianity didn't create the Holocaust. Nazism did. If you want to write a nice big long article about anti-semitism then I'm sure there is one you could add to elsewhere instead of trying to cunningly portray Adolf Hitler as having been influenced by his mother's faith in order to murder millions of innocent people. --Iamlondon 03:49, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

• "Adolf Hitler was brought up as a Roman Catholic by his Roman Catholic parents." Seems kind of redundant. ReverendG 16:17, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

• Or perhaps the editor wasn't being specific enough? "Adolf Hitler was brought up as a Roman Catholic by his Roman Catholic parents who were Romish Papist Popish Romanist Papalists" ;) .

--GuyIncognito 07:08, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Good heavens, so to speak. I read this article and didn't see any indication that Catholicism was the root evil behind the Holocaust. As for "...brought up as a Roman Catholic by his Roman Catholic parents" being redundant, it's possible that his parents could have had different faiths, or that he was brought up by someone other than his parents, or the Catholic aspect of his upbringing could have been at the hand of another relative or family friend.

You have to understand that Catholics are on the defensive since it was announced that Pope Benedict was in the Hitler youth. The same thing applies for rumours that Hitler had a "thing" about the Jews since a Jewish doctor allegedly failed to treat his sick mother, who Hitler was very fond of.

I found that the religious section was fair. It accounted for all sides. The fact that his parent were catholic... is a fact. When we complain, we give examples ...Somerset219 23:50, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

To be honest this section is extremley bloated and dragged down into "quote" fest. I felt this section is either aimed to whack Atheist and Christians. Who gives a damn if Hitler is a Christian or Athiest anyway and shit happens. Here's what I observe so far some people want to label Hitler an Atheist simply because they want to discredit Atheism (meaning that Hitler lack of beleif in god results to evil craps) and while Atheist want to lablel Hitler a extreme devout christian to re-infore their claim that christianity is an abomination for humanity. Quit using Hitler as propgaganda tool. I like to simplify this article w/o comprimisiong the facts or censoring any information. A seperate article Adolf Hitler's religious beliefs is somehwat superior because its well organised. So try making an article WITHOUT INSULTING ATHEIST OR CHRISTIANS for fuck's sake.

Religious Beliefs, 'Part: The Second'

I've re-enterred the quote which was rudely removed by one of the contributors. If you wish to blank out the fact that Hitler's anti-semitism had nothing to do with his reiligious upbringing then I'll carry on pasting that quote back in each time. It's a deplorable abuse of Wikipedia to arrogantly remove material on no other grounds than that it doesn't fit the thesis of the 'editor'. I could make a pretty accurate guess as to the general demographic of the person who keeps removing this.

Ironically, if you want to whitewash the truth and skew history perhaps you might join the Nazi Party - they were quite good at lies and propaganda, you know. --Iamlondon 14:23, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Steigmann-Gall is an author cited in this controversy several times. He's also cited here, regarding Luther. Is he a serious source, or a journo?--Shtove 21:30, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Steigman-Gall is a serious source, an expert in the field. As a historian his studies into this period and of Hitler are highly respected by all. The passage above I removed as very poorly written, barely clear, and the points it tries to make are illogical. It does not follow from the quote the statments it makes, which amount to original research. Is there any serious claim that even in the first place that Hitler's youth was imbued with anti-Semitism? No. The influce comes during his adult hood with the influence of the Christian Social Party, Martin Luther, and other anti-semitic influences. The quote about the terror that Hitler recognized Christianity used is an observation that such terror is needed to forcefully reshape society, which he intended to do as well, in admiration of the early Catholic institutions. Ofcourse this is my own interpretation and unless I cite a reputable scholar who gives this opinion (even though its not relevant to Hitlers religious beliefs) would be original research to. But to jump into speculation about how this means Hitler planed to destroy Christainity is a great leap of logic, original research, use of weasle words, creates a straw-man, and is a non-sequitur to boot. That is why I removed it. Giovanni33 02:04, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Gio,

if you followed the reasons which you gave for removing London's addition consistently you would also have to delete your own Mein Kampf additions from the section. They are at least as "poorly written", "barely clear" and "illogical" in their introductions and selective in their presentation.

London's edits are no improvement to the section stylistically, but your removal of them is merely an instance of POV pushing. It contradicts your biases, so throw it out.

Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 15:01, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. The problem, Giovanni, is that where a quote is not enough for you neither is direct incontrovertible evidence. Would you like reams and reams of pages of evidence demonstrating Hitler's intent to remove christianity from German life? Only the most incredulous of persons would argue the point as to whether Hitler intended on the removal of christianity from the life of the Reich. One or two quotes from an anti-semitic bishop do not equate to a groundswell of adoration by Hitler for christianity when placed alongside the thousands of priests, nuns, monks and lay people he had murdered in his attacks on the Churches both within Germany's borders and without. So it is far from any "Great Leap of Logic" as you tried to caricature the quote. In Mein Kampf Hitler said what he meant and meant what he said. The evidence proves that the quote bears out his intention of destroying Christianity as a force in German life.--Iamlondon 16:07, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Hitler used Christian rhetoric for political gain, but it wasn't the faith which caused a swell in Nazism. However, equally wrong are those who attempt to erase any mention or reference to his upbringing and fabricate claims that other religious beliefs (or none at all) were somehow responsible. --AWF

I don't question your assertion in the least. But any attempt to discuss the religion of Hitler's upbringing will immediately stand accused of attempting to slant others toward believing, erroneously, that such a faith was the primal cause of his anti-semitism. This was a clear intention of some of the original contributors and it is fair and correct to balance these additions. But the simple truth is that Catholicism in no way made Hitler an anti-Semite - something he himself very clearly states in the first book of Mein Kampf when he discusses Linz and its jewish population of his childhood years. --Iamlondon 23:04, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

To what extent can Mein Kampf be considered a good source for Hitler's real views?

I mean, if anyone has ever read mein kampf, it's basically populist rhetoric and lies about his WW1 period. Is it really a good source from which to derive what Hitler believed in? It was always intended to be published by the way, Hitler isn't exactly going to say to a largely christian german public 'by the way I'm an atheist'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.138.0.221 (talk • contribs)

Mein Kampf can be used as a very good source for Hitler's views. I don't think it was populist at all, Hitler was going to get his views to the German people no matter what they thought, and he wasn't going to change his mind for anybody. Most of it was propaganda, and I agree with you on the last part. I've said it before and I'll say it again, he wanted Christian votes, so he said he was Christian perhaps in some passages. But his racial and social attitudes were largely uncensored in that book, and that's why many Neo-Nazi's idolize it as something comparable to the Bible, which, of course, it is not. Aaрон Кинни (t) 04:59, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Mein Kampf is of the highest importance in any article concerning Adolf Hitler. In Mein Kampf Hitler laid down the groundwork of his ideology. But more importantly, he virtually never deviated from the ideas contained in this book - From Lebensraum to a determination not to go to war with Britain...Hitler's views in Mein Kampf can be considered pretty much 'honest' regardless of their immorality.--Iamlondon 14:45, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I find that strange, because I've yet to hear of a scholar that considers it anything other than populist in regards to it's religious rhetoric. I mean, what you Atheists don't seem to get about Hitler is that all the sources you find of him self-identifying as a Christian are either public speeches before the Reichstag (pre-NOLN - or speeches to things such as the SA). Everything Hitler did in his actions seems to suggest he was mildly anti-clerical, I mean, look at his top level appointments - Himmler and Bormann were both virulently anti-Christian.

This isn't an academic response, in fact it's rather illiterate. For your information I am a practising Roman Catholic.--Iamlondon 01:52, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not a catholic, but I'm sure not an atheist. That's not to say I have something against catholics, just to address the topic at hand. Aaрон Кинни (t) 09:35, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I actually liked your answer to the question. --Iamlondon 23:06, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

History2125history2125 This is my first edit on any topic on this encyclopedia. I am a professional historian with interest in Nazism. Mein Kampf was created as propaganda, reproduced as progaganda and will always be propaganda. As representation, we can never get to the "truth" of any written document. It is only useful to talk about this document as what Hitler, and more importantly (since Hitler was a myth of the party and the man himself was rather less significant than what he represented)what the party wanted to represent through his life and ideas. So it is an important source for Nazi history...less useful as biography or analysis of Hitler's "thoughts".

What I fail to grasp (and to be clear, I am a student and not a professional historian) is how Mein Kampf can't give us tremendous insight into Hitler's thoughts. If it was solely authored by him, even as purely propaganda, can we not analyze the reality of Hitler the man, his deeds, to the suggested ideologies of Hitler the author? Are you saying, History2125 that Mein Kampf is a construct of a construct, since Hitler "was a myth of the party" ? Ranieldule 12:24, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

History2125 To see Mein Kampf as somehow reflecting authentic ideas of the man is to assume that the author intended something other than political uses (propaganda) of the document. If we recall that this political document was written and published at a key moment in the direction of the party and the future leadership position of Hitler within the party than anything and everything in it must be examined critically at best, skeptically at worst. What makes the self-styled mythmaking in Mein Kampf so suspect is that most serious historians of Hitler see most of the biographical information in the story as fiction or outright misrepresentations. It was published by Hitler and then reproduced by the Nazi party to provide a founding myth for the Fuhrer and to keep his image pure and his story noble. The ideas (if you can call the rambling sentences of this almost unreadable document) are pure propaganda and not even original. You can find most of this drivel in fin de siecle ethnic fundamentalism and in many right-wing nationalist movements in central Europe. Almost all of it is derivative of other people's ideas. I think what is interesting and historically worthwhile in this valuable document is the party's use of it and the entire Hitler myth which got traction in the Third Reich. I recommend Ian Kershaw, "The Hitler Myth: Image and Reality in the Third Reich." So yes, it is a "construct of a construct" or sheer cultural production in the service of politics.

Thank GOODNESS for you History2125! You summed up my thoughts perfectly - This Atheist POV of treating speeches before the Reichstag as perfectly authentic accurate sources for Hitler's views concerning religion (but not anything else of course), has become almost ludicrous - I mean no offence to passive Atheists of course, only fundamentalist Atheists. This tug of war to prove Hitler was a Christian is pathetic. Glad to see some REAL historians on here for a change.

Trivia

Trivia is by definition unencyclopaedia. I removed the trivia section but someone restored it. Not only is a trivia section inappropriate for an encyclopaedia article, it is bullet points as well. What ever happened to prose? Anyway, the section should be removed, really. Anything which is actually relevant should be incorporated elsewhere. Worldtraveller 16:34, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

-- Don't even try to do anything to this page anymore. Too many ignorant democrats in here. I've given up. Point in case, it was removed from the 'good article' list. HMM. Wonder why...

• Although I will point out improvements look like they have been made. I still think relgious beliefs should simply be left out. Colonel Marksman 01:07, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Why no trivia? Pages like Abraham Lincoln and Hunter S. Thompson are fine examples of a trivia section organizing facts near impossible to incorporate into meaningful prose. At least in this form no interesting pieces are left out. What's unencyclopedic about informing succintly, especially when many topics are miscellaneous? Ranieldule 18:02, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. 'Trivia' goes completely against what an encyclopaedia is suppposed to provide. If it's actually relevant, it should be included somewhere else in the article. Worldtraveller 18:14, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for clarifying that for me WT - I had read that portion previously but I suppose I was searching for the word trivia itself, but the concept is there. I do hope though that all that information isn't lost in the ongoing delete/revert process. I find a good portion of it relevant and I hope to put those pieces somehow into the existing prose of the article. Surely everyone else should give it a go, too.Ranieldule 18:30, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Origins of the name "Hitler"

This list is incorrect, is it not? After all, his last name WAS Hiedler, not Hitler and therefore listing the origins of *Hitler* is irrelevant, rather there should be a listing of the origins of Hiedler, his father's family's real last name. User:211.27.247.184

Dear 211, Hiedler, Hüttler and Hitler are merely variants in spelling of one name. Only when Alois changed his name was the spelling fixed for himself and his children - and Alois chose Hitler. The variation of course doesn't make the search for the meaning easier but it is still only one name. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 19:20, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

1936 Olympic Games

Under "Economics and culture" it says "In 1936 Berlin hosted the summer Olympic games, which were opened by Hitler and choreographed to demonstrate Aryan superiority over all other races." Did this succeed, fail? The article is not clear and with numerous non-Aryan winners of gold medals might it be changed to "choregraphed...with mixed results?" I ask tentatively because it's a small point and I'm sure plenty of you seasoned Wikipedians can set me straight before I muddle anything. Ranieldule 17:15, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Be bold and add it - that's a good addition, but you shouldn't need to ask permission first :). Deleuze 21:35, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Now I'm bold. Thanks for the nudge. Ranieldule 12:40, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

destruction of Christianity

The article includes the following para:

Hitler writes,

"The individual may establish with pain today that with the appearance of Christianity the first spiritual terror entered into the far freer ancient world, but he will not be able to contest the fact that since then the world has been afflicted and dominated by this coercion, and that coercion is broken only by coercion, and terror by terror. Only then can a new state of affairs be constructively created."

(Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim translation, p.413). The significance of this passage is powerful indeed - a declaration that the eventual destruction of traditional Christianity was to be a further goal of Hitler's ideology.

This is the full passage in context. It does not appear to be "a declaration that the eventual destruction of traditional Christianity was to be a further goal of Hitler's ideology". Indeed it's rather unlikely that he would make such a declaration in his book, whatever his private views were. He is saying that the old must be attacked and destroyed in order to build up the new, just as Christianity attacked and destroyed the old religions to build up the new. In other words he is actually presenting the history of Christianity as a model to follow, while adding a few regrets about the loss of the happy-go-lucky attitudes of pre-Christian Europe. But the "passionate intolerance" he attributes to Christianity is in fact his justification for his own "passionate intolerance". He says that this intolerance orginally arose from the "Jewish mode of thought" but it must now be taken up in order to counter the supposed Jewish threat:

"And that was natural, right and logical. An existing order of things is not abolished by merely proclaiming and insisting on a new one. It must not be hoped that those who are the partisans of the existing order and have their interests bound up with it will be converted and won over to the new movement simply by being shown that something new is necessary. On the contrary, what may easily happen is that two different situations will exist side by side and that the-called philosophy is transformed into a party, above which level it will not be able to raise itself afterwards. For the philosophy is intolerant and cannot permit another to exist side by side with it. It imperiously demands its own recognition as unique and exclusive and a complete transformation in accordance with its views throughout all the branches of public life. It can never allow the previous state of affairs to continue in existence by its side.

And the same holds true of religions. Christianity was not content with erecting an altar of its own. It had first to destroy the pagan altars. It was only in virtue of this passionate intolerance that an apodictic faith could grow up. And intolerance is an indispensable condition for the growth of such a faith. It may be objected here that in these phenomena which we find throughout the history of the world we have to recognize mostly a specifically Jewish mode of thought and that such fanaticism and intolerance are typical symptoms of Jewish mentality. That may be a thousandfold true; and it is a fact deeply to be regretted. The appearance of intolerance and fanaticism in the history of mankind may be deeply regrettable, and it may be looked upon as foreign to human nature, but the fact does not change conditions as they exist today. The men who wish to liberate our German nation from the conditions in which it now exists cannot cudgel their brains with thinking how excellent it would be if this or that had never arisen. They must strive to find ways and means of abolishing what actually exists. A philosophy of life which is inspired by an infernal spirit of intolerance can only be set aside by a doctrine that is advanced in an equally ardent spirit and fought for with as determined a will and which is itself a new idea, pure and absolutely true. Each one of us today may regret the fact that the advent of Christianity was the first occasion on which spiritual terror was introduced into the much freer ancient world, but the fact cannot be denied that ever since then the world is pervaded and dominated by this kind of coercion and that violence is broken only by violence and terror by terror. Only then can a new regime be created by means of constructive work. Political parties are prone to enter compromises; but a philosophy never does this. A political party is inclined to adjust its teachings with a view to meeting those of its opponents, but a philosophy proclaims its own infallibility.

In the beginning, political parties have also and nearly always the intention of securing an exclusive and despotic domination for themselves. They always show a slight tendency to become philosophical. But the limited nature of their programme is in itself enough to rob them of that heroic spirit which a philosophy demands. The spirit of conciliation which animates their will attracts those petty and chicken-hearted people who are not fit to be protagonists in any crusade. That is the reason why they mostly become struck in their miserable pettiness very early on the march...." (cue more ranting)[1]

The paragraph as it exists appears to reverse Hitler's meaning. Paul B 10:04, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Paul, for your analysis. However, I don't think your conclusion is correct. Hitler did not so much present (his version of) Christianity as a model to be emulated but a complaint about Christian intolerance (which he calls Jewish - in a way he's right in that, as Christianity is Jewish) and goes on to advocate a counter-intolerance. He is presenting it only as a model in so far as he considers it to be "the way things are going and always will" (akin to his racial struggle concept, or Marxism's class struggles). I certainly cannot see a contradiction to the above "a declaration that the eventual destruction of traditional Christianity was to be a further goal of Hitler's ideology", as he is actually declaring that. To rephrase: "You Christians destroyed the old pagans and now we will destroy you!" Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 13:30, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

You really are unbeliveable. He says no such thing. Firstly, he's not even addressing Christians. Hitler needed Christian voters. So he can't be saying "You Christians destroyed the old pagans and now we will destroy you." One would have to be blinkered to the actual aim of the text to imagine that. Try reading the whole chapter. He would never directly attack Christianity in such a way. He even calls Christianity an "apodictic faith" (apodiktische Glauben). The word apodictic means "demonstrably true". It was well known in Germany because of its use by Kant to refer to things that are true necessarily. The chapter is about how to establish the Nazi state, or the People's State as Hitler calls it. He says that the first requirement is to destroy the current state of affairs. "For a fight it will have to be, since the first objective will not be to build up the idea of the People's State but rather to wipe out the Jewish State which is now in existence. As so often happens in the course of history, the main difficulty is not to establish a new order of things but to clear the ground for its establishment... That is why the protagonist of the new idea is unfortunately, in spite of his desire for constructive work, compelled to wage a destructive battle first, in order to abolish the existing state of affairs...And the same holds true of religions. Christianity was not content with erecting an altar of its own. It had first to destroy the pagan altars. It was only in virtue of this passionate intolerance that an apodictic faith could grow up." It's very clear what he is saying - we have to destroy the "Jewish" social structure in the same way that Christianity had to destroy paganism. All this nasty destructivness was created by the Jews in the first place, but we have to adopt their methods which have created the modern world. Of course we know that Hitler belived that Jesus and the early Christians were dedicated to turning Jewish traditions against Judaism - to create a new faith based on attacking Pharisaism. That's exactly what he thinks he is doing. And that's what he says, as clearly as his turgid prose can do. Paul B 23:53, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

The dispute stems from a quotation of Hitler's writing. Once quoted, the passage shouldn't be qualified or commented upon, either way. There is another problem: the translation is dreadful - every clause bears tidying up and tightening - and that's not the fault of the writer. Is Hitler turgid compared to, say, Churchill, who won a Nobel prize for his Boy's Own account of the superiority of Englishness?--Shtove 01:19, 23 July 2006 (UTC)