Talk:Arrowverse

Criteria for mainspace inclusion

What is going to be the criteria to move it to the mainspace?  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 19:29, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

I think everyone can discuss it. Like what exactly is covered? Do we take a "MCU" approach where each film/TV series has a 3 paragraph structure of a) simple plot b) development c) connective material? Do we have all that info, but spread out in various other sections? Do we include some type of cross over cast table, or use something like I initially created? I think once we determine that, get it structured and c/e edited to our liking, we could maybe move it to the mainspace. The sources and notability I believe are definitely there to be passable for a mainspace article. It just has to be created. Does that help answer your question? - Favre1fan93 (talk) 19:49, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

My thoughts on this... I wouldnt include Supergirl or other potential series until they are actually confirmed to be connected... the potential Ray Palmer series actually became the team-up show... But I also question whether "The Arrow Universe" is an appropriate title for the page... has it been called that in any reliable sources? Perhaps "The CW DC Television Universe" or something like that? Not really wild about that name just throwing out another suggestion.. I don't know... but "Arrow Universe" doesn't seem right to me. Spanneraol (talk) 20:23, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Feel free to move all of this conversation over to the draft talk page. Again, I just got the ball rolling and am open to crafting this with everyone. I also agree on the title, but just needed something to start this up. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 21:27, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Just as a suggestion for moving it to the main space, how about if the teamup show becomes a thing and is released. I would say 3 live action and 1 animated would be enough to warrent a page, especially considering all of the crossovers they seem to like to do.--Ditto51 (My Talk Page) 22:11, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

My question is because unless there is reliable sources discussing the universe, having notable shows exist in the same universe does not make the universe itself notable. The notability guideline discusses that individual entities do not make a sum notable. So, we need to worry more about finding sources to expand on the idea of the universe, and worry less about how many "existing" shows need to occur before we can move it into the mainspace. If the page is just going to be a general housing of all the connected shows, then a navigation box can easily do that for us, because we don't need to repeat ourselves on every show page and then again on a central page. My fear is the page just becomes a housing ground for giants lists of who appears where. That's why I'm asking us to understand when it should move, but I can see a rush to push it into the mainspace (not that you personally would just rush in Favre) just because there are several inter-connected shows, but when no one has actually commented on the universe itself (Spanneraol touches on this when it's assumed to call it the "Arrow universe").  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 23:52, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

I understand that concern 100% Bignole, and hope to prevent it from that, but just make the draft a nurturing space. I just had a general concept of what the article could be the other day and just wanted to get it crafted somewhere. :) I'm not looking for this to be a couple of days editing thing and then it's ready. It will probably be time, maybe until the team up series is released, and a bunch of coverage (hopefully) on the universe is released. And if acceptable with those involved here thus far, can we start moving this over to the Draft talk? Just so all of this (very necessary info) is there for when we need it, and we don't have to look through The Flash archives? - Favre1fan93 (talk) 02:39, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

I know you get that. And yes, this should all go over to that page. :)  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 02:47, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

If there aren't any objections, would anyone be opposed to me copy and pasting the discussion, starting with Bignole's first comment, over to the Draft talk? - Favre1fan93 (talk) 04:02, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

@Bignole, Spanneraol, and Ditto51: Just wanted you to know we are now at this talk. Feel free to continue discussing, or make changes to the draft if you aren't liking something, or think of something better. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:52, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Crossover Sources

Do the press releases for The CW go into detail about guest characters? If they do then can they be used as sources for the crossover appearances. If not then can reviews or recaps be used to source it. As long as they are reliable of course.--Ditto51 (My Talk Page) 22:04, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Most sourcing for all of these are already on Arrow or The Flash's pages. Just didn't bring them over yet. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 02:35, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Isnt the universe called The Arrowverse??

The shared universe is being called by both fans and gaming news sites as the arrowverse. Even Greg Berlanti called it the Arrowverse in an interview about The possibility of Supergirl crossing over "into the Arrowverse". I know this is still a draft, but still.The Ouroboros, the Undying, the Immortal (talk) 06:23, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Untitled spin-off series draft

OK I created a draft page for the spin off series. here is the link: Draft:Untitled Arrow/Flash spin-off, feel free to change add and do whatever you wantThe Ouroboros, the Undying, the Immortal (talk) 20:11, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Shared Elements Section

Should we right down which series are crossing over or something? As with Vixen and the spin-off series, it will be harder to tell which series everyone comes from if you only watch one of the four.--Ditto51 (My Talk Page) 13:21, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Define "crossing over".  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 13:52, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Crossing over as in say Barry appearing on Arrow or Oliver appearing on Flash. With another 2 shows it may get even more confusing as to where some characters are crossing over from, especially since Heat-Wave and Stein started on Flash and are going to the spin-off and Atom started on Arrow, so where would they be marked as crossing over from?

Something else I just thought of as well, if Heat-Wave appears in a rouge-centric episode on the Flash, would that be a crossover like Oliver appearing on the Flash? Or would it just be considered a recurring character thing?

Overall that table will get confusing, fast and it will have to be decided if a character returns to their starting show, would it be added to the table or not?--Ditto51 (My Talk Page) 15:23, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Personally, because of all that, I would say that we shouldn't be chronicling cross-overs to that detail. I think acknowledging crossovers between series should be enough, because this page needs to be based on the universe as a whole and not individual links within the universe. If you're going to do a table, I would think that you would have a list of characters on the left column, and then going across you could just list the different shows with a "yes" or "no" for whether they have crossed over period. This, instead of listing every single crossover event would be easier to navigate and easier to update than trying to micromanage every single appearance in each series.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 15:39, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

That could also get messy though... We could always do something like what has been done here and then just keep that section for the official crossovers they want to do every season.--Ditto51 (My Talk Page) 15:45, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

I don't like the season bit, because that will just become too cumbersome when you have 3 and 4 shows with multiple seasons. If you took that example, and removed the seasons and leave it as simply the shows across the top, then that is what I was referring to.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 16:03, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I see your point... This is what it looks like (roughly) right now with my method: User:Ditto51/List of Arrowverse actors. I wonder if yours would work better. Do you know any page with that type of thing that I can borrow the code of to make a mock up version of what it would be?--Ditto51 (My Talk Page) 16:21, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

@Poroboros: Have you got any other colours you could use for that, because they just clash and look horrible.--Ditto51 (My Talk Page) 16:29, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

@Ditto51: Ok, got you. how about these. a little lighter green and a little darker yellow.The Ouroboros, the Undying, the Immortal (talk) 16:37, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

I feel like the Flash colour should be red and arrow green (which you have done, although I will admit I don't like it). I have tried something. The only problem with your idea is when we have say Oliver and Barry appear in the same episode of Vixen or if two shows collide.--Ditto51 (My Talk Page) 17:07, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

To be fair, it was along those colours I wanted to use, I just don't know my way around the colour coding to make them brighter--Ditto51 (My Talk Page) 17:13, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

What I'll also mention is that this still doesn't answer how to deal with recurring characters being spun-off and then returning, such as Heat-Wave and Captain Cold, as they don't have a backdoor pilot where as Barry was intended to have one.--Ditto51 (My Talk Page) 17:07, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

That's why I suggested my solution to the table, because we wouldn't need to worry about that level of detail. We could just say they have appeared in Show X, and Show Y, and Show Z. I think we can avoid worrying about the capacity, and what season they appeared for simplicities sake. I don't have a suggested page, because I don't think that people have done that before.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 17:12, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

This color pallet swap was just an idea. I like @Ditto51:´s idea about the table of characters that crossover. I think we should go with that, but not right now. there are still ONLY 2 shows in the arrowverse. vixen premieres in fall and the untitled show next year, so it isnt necessary to include them yet The Ouroboros, the Undying, the Immortal (talk) 17:19, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

@Bignole: I think whoever played Happy in the Iron Man films may have what you are looking for. Have a look to be sure and I can see if I can work on something. @Poroboros: I think it would be nice to have it sorted for when Vixen comes out. (And isn't the spin-off set for 2015-16 (so this year) as such it will also debut in the fall.

The table can stay for now, what I want is something ready for when the others are all added because otherwise that table will grow in size and also become extremely messy.--Ditto51 (My Talk Page) 17:25, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm fine with the red and the green but I think the yellow is too bright (or sharp, or something) when compared to the green and red. Can it be turned down slightly?--Ditto51 (My Talk Page) 17:27, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

@Ditto51: ok, no problem. this one good???The Ouroboros, the Undying, the Immortal (talk) 17:31, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm okay with it (kinda), but does it have to be yellow?--Ditto51 (My Talk Page) 17:36, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

@Ditto51: well, no it doesnt have to be yellow. I just switched the flash color with the official crossover one. it can remain yellow or a different color. change it if you want another colorThe Ouroboros, the Undying, the Immortal (talk) 17:40, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Leave it as it is then I guess. If it is only going to continue until we get to Vixen and the spin-off then it won't effect much anyway (Especially as it will be on break between seasons until then).--Ditto51 (My Talk Page) 17:43, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

@Bignole: Did you mean something like what is in Jon Favreau's filmography section? Because that could work. Although I like my idea for the time being, at least for the next television year. @Favre1fan93:, you created the page for the Marvel TV shows, what do you think about it for this? The outcome may weigh in on any change over there further down the line when it becomes impossible to use the table due to the increasing number of seasons.--Ditto51 (My Talk Page) 18:16, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, something like that, where "Role" is replaced with the specific series. If we're dealing with 3 or more series, than it'll be too large to keep track of seasonal appearances. With 2 shows, it's easier, but beyond that it'll get complicated really quick.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 18:32, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

I say leave it as it is until the fall season starts, and then change to mine (maybe) before transitioning over to yours next year, that way we get to try and keep a detailed table for longer.

On a seperate note, I feel like if we went with yours then we would need to make sure that most crossovers are explained so that each crossing over character has at least one example from at least two series (preferably all) that they have been in.--Ditto51 (My Talk Page) 18:54, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Keeping in mind that I haven't filled in the empty cells on the end yet, my table looks like it will last us for at least the next television season. What about on other people's browsers?--Ditto51 (My Talk Page) 18:58, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

@Ditto51: I am for the table we just filled up. lets leave the color table at the Draft page up until the 2015/2016 season. after the season begins we can link it on the pageThe Ouroboros, the Undying, the Immortal (talk) 19:25, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

I think it's fine at the moment with 2 shows, but beyond that it'll get too much. What it could ultimately look like is this:

Character	Series Appearance				Notes
	Arrow	The Flash	Vixen	All-Star Team-up
Oliver Queen / Arrow	Yes	Yes	Yes	No	Series regular for Arrow
Felicity Smoak	Yes	Yes	No	No	Series regular for Arrow
John Diggle	Yes	Yes	No	No	Series regular for Arrow
Laurel Lance / Black Canary	Yes	Yes	No	No	Series regular for Arrow
Captain Quentin Lance	Yes	Yes	No	No	Series regular for Arrow
Barry Allen / Flash	Yes	Yes	Yes	No	Series regular for The Flash
Cisco Ramon	Yes	Yes	No	No	Series regular for The Flash
Dr. Caitlin Snow	Yes	Yes	No	No	Series regular for The Flash
William Tockman	Yes	Yes	No	No	Guest character
Royal Flush Gang	Yes	Yes	No	No	Guest characters
Ray Palmer / Atom	Yes	Yes	No	Yes	Series regular for All-Star Team-Up
Leanard Snart / Captain Cold	No	Yes	No	Yes	Series regular for All-Star Team-Up
Mick Rory / Heat Wave	No	Yes	No	Yes	Series regular for All-Star Team-Up
Sara Lance / Canary	No	Yes	No	Yes	Series regular for All-Star Team-Up
Dr. Martin Stein	No	Yes	No	Yes	Series regular for All-Star Team-Up

Obviously, the more shows that come out the easier this type of table will be to update. It's not super comprehensive now, but it's a basic idea of what we can expect if Vixen and the ASTU show happen.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 01:24, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Hi all. I never got the ping notification Ditto gave me above. But I like Big's idea, though remove the "notes" column and put one next to the character titled "originated" (or the like) so we can say where the character first appeared. Then readers can go to respective character articles or sections for more. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 04:50, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Also, add an actor column, and instead of removing notes, maybe make that one a "refs" column. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 04:53, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

@Ditto51: and @Bignole: Why not both??????? Why dont we add this table that Big made on the official Arrowverse page, and the page that Ditto51 and I filled up at List of Arrowverse actors could be linked above the table like: Further information at "List of Arrowverse Actors". we could do both.The Ouroboros, the Undying, the Immortal (talk) 06:47, 11 April 2015 (UTC

Why not both? Probably because the one in my sandbox will begin getting too crowded, espcially since characters will need seperate cells if they are a regular in one series and then guest in the next.

Anyway, I tidyed up the table slightly:

Character	Actor	First Appearance	Series crossovers				Ref
			Arrow	The Flash	Vixen	All-Star Team-up
Oliver Queen / Arrow	Stephen Amell	Arrow	Regular	Guest
Felicity Smoak			Regular[1]	Guest
John Diggle			Regular	Guest
Laurel Lance / Black Canary			Regular	Guest
Captain Quentin Lance			Regular	Guest
Barry Allen / Flash			Guest	Regular	Guest
Cisco Ramon			Guest	Regular
Dr. Caitlin Snow			Guest	Regular
William Tockman			Guest
Royal Flush Gang	Various		Guest
Ray Palmer / Atom			Guest			Regular
Leanard Snart / Captain Cold		The Flash		Guest		Regular
Mick Rory / Heat Wave				Guest		Regular
Dr. Martin Stein				Guest		Regular

^ 1. Recurring for Season 1 of The Arrow

I hid Sara since we don't have conformation that that is who will be played. This looks nicer overall and helps to denote regular vs. guest (the note for Felicity is because she was recurring in the first season and not main).--Ditto51 (My Talk Page) 11:23, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

@Ditto51: I like this one more. so we will use this one for the official universe pageThe Ouroboros, the Undying, the Immortal (talk) 11:30, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

I like this one better than mine too. I removed the line breaks though, as I think it looks better without them. Not sure if that was a browser issue for you, but everything looks even without them for me. I also added Stephen to see how the actor would fit in and changed it to "Series crossovers", since it has "First appearance" already listed. What do you all think?  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 12:20, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

I undid the first line break as otherwise that column is too large for what is meant to hold.--Ditto51 (My Talk Page) 12:40, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Currently, yes. But if "All-Star Team-Up" isn't retitled to something smaller, or becomes something like "The Brave and the Bold", we may want to consider removing the break. :)  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 19:02, 11 April 2015 (UTC)