Talk:Southern Ireland (1921–1922)

Southern Ireland still exists.

It was only after the Statute Law Revision Act 2007 which repealled the Government of Ireland Act 1920 that Southern Ireland as a political entity was legally abolished. But I have found nothing that says that Southern Ireland as the term for the geographical area that the current Republic of Ireland administers was ever legally abolished. Added to that, Southern Ireland and the Free State is often used when referring to the Republic of Ireland to distinguish it frm Northern Ireland. AlwynJPie (talk) 02:34, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

The political entity 's existence expired long before the SLRA tidy up, per article. Every land mass on the face of the globe, from continents to islets, has a northern and southern part. This page is for proposing improvements to the article. As the hatnote makes clear This article is about the 1921–22 autonomous region. What seems to be the problem? Qexigator (talk) 08:01, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Contrary to the article, Souhern Ireland's existence as a political entity did not end on 6 December 1922. Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland became autonomous regions of the newly created Irish Free State on 6 December 1922 under terms of the Irish Free State Constitution Act 1922. I cannot find evidence that Southern Ireland ever ended. I speculate that the term Southern Ireland may not have been used because the Free State and the Republic of Ireland claimed sovereignty over the whole island in their constitutions. I would be greatful if someone can shed light on this. AlwynJPie (talk) 10:39, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Please quote in full anything which you consider supports the notion that the statutory provisions creating "Southern Ireland" remained in operation for any known and accepted purpose, and had not expired long before SLRA. It is doubtful whether the proposition is even arguable, from the point of view of the laws of any part of the the island of Ireland, or any part of UK, or according to international law or diplomatic practice: is there anything else which could be invoked? Qexigator (talk) 13:02, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

The political status of Southern Ireland has changed a few times since the Partition but the term Southern Ireland continues to be used when referring to Ireland even in debates in the UK parliament. Here is a link to one of many examples of UK parliamentary verbatim available where the term Southern Ireland is used for the said context: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmselect/cmniaf/886/6020107.htm AlwynJPie (talk) 20:29, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Shorter lead, improve narrative sequence

The first paragraph of the present version[1] is nearly all that is needed for the lead, at the top of the article, together with: No Government of Southern Ireland was ever established, although a Provisional Government was established pursuant to the Anglo Irish Treaty. In the narrative sequence of the article, the rest of the present lead, describing what the Act "envisaged", would be better placed to follow the content of the "Home Rule" section, which describes the situation as it was, and then letting the narrative continue with what happened as described in the section "1921 general election". Would that be acceptable? Qexigator (talk) 00:27, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Revision now done. [2] --Qexigator (talk) 11:29, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

The modern meaning and use of the term Southern Ireland

Most people these days use the term Southern Ireland to mean the part of Ireland that is not Northern Ireland, i.e. the Republic of Ireland. Until recently I was unaware Southern Ireland was ever an official name for the larger of the two territories that the island of Ireland was partitioned into; I thought they were named Northern Ireland and the Irish Free State. I was also unaware that initially the Irish Free State covered the whole of Ireland and that Northern Ireland opted out of it. Perhaps the article should deal with the modern meaning and the political entity that was called Southern Ireland should be transfered to another article such as the Government of Southern Ireland. AlwynJPie (talk) 03:05, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Article title

Copied from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration:

Re this, it might not be a bad idea to move Southern Ireland. The term is far more commonly used to mean either the Irish state or the southern counties of Ireland than it is to refer to an early 20th-century political entity that never existed in fact. Southern Ireland (Autonomous region of the United Kingdom) is a hideous title, as well as being inaccurate, since there are no reliable sources saying that it was such a thing, but possibly "Southern Ireland (Government of Ireland Act 1920)" would be a less awful alternative. I would suggest that "Southern Ireland" should then become a redirect to Republic of Ireland, with an appropriate hatnote on that article. Scolaire (talk) 15:54, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

I would suggest a disam page, with electoral and sub-regions that also use SI. Murry1975 (talk) 18:12, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

What electoral and sub-regions would they be? Not that I disagree with your idea. Scolaire (talk) 18:22, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) A dab page would seem far better than a simple redirect. I'm not sure what Murry1975 is referring to but no doubt we shall find out in due course. ww2censor (talk) 18:35, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Redirects are just an alternative to google and not as good, if a name could be used for an article it should be unless a disambiguation page would be better. We should not move an article from a natural name just to have a redirect using the name. Thus I prefer either the article as it is or a disambiguation page - though just having two entries seems silly. Dmcq (talk) 18:50, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Done and done. --Scolaire (talk) 14:46, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Lead

A part of the lead as of now is original research, relying on subjective interpretation of primary sources. I am replacing it with a single short sentence citing secondary sources (i.e. books). Scolaire (talk) 18:33, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

The current lede starts off with the mouthful that the country was a "de jure polity". That's not suitable. The descriptions should be similar to those for Northern Ireland as it had the exact same status. Frenchmalawi (talk) 23:41, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Country

Recently there have been several edits on the articles adding Country as the status for Southern Ireland, however there is no source that Southern Ireland was a country. Elevatorrailfan (talk) 18:34, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

It had the same status as Northern Ireland, which is described as a "constituent county of the United Kingdom". Do you have a source for "autonomous region"? Scolaire (talk) 19:00, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

I was not the one who added autonomous region, that was just where I reverted it too. Do you have a source for Southern Ireland being described as a constituent country? Elevatorrailfan (talk) 19:14, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm not the one reverting you. It seems to me that the onus is the same on both sides to produce a source. I would be quite happy to see it left as "part". Scolaire (talk) 20:17, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

The current lede starts off with the mouthful that the country was a "de jure polity". That's not suitable. The descriptions should be similar to those for Northern Ireland as it had the exact same status.Frenchmalawi (talk) 23:42, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Recent change to the Article's title

There has been an article about the short-lived UK country called Southern Ireland which existed from 1921-1922 on Wikipedia for years. It was always titled Southern Ireland. Just as its sister country, Northern Ireland is so titled. The short-lived country is referenced hundreds of places on Wikipedia. Recently, on 6 Feb., an editor (i) changed the title to "Southern Ireland (1921-1922)" and (ii) created a dab page for Southern Ireland. This followed a discussion on this page over all of five (yes FIVE) days with no posting being made on the requested moves page.

It is really frustrating that every time we must now properly reference this former UK country we must type "Southern Ireland (1921-1922)|Southern Ireland". This change was entirely unnecessary and is retrograde. Did any editor or reader ever experience confusion on account of its name? Well, if they had, there was a perfectly good hat note at the top of the article. The title the article has had for years should be restored to it. "Southern Ireland" plain and simple. Frenchmalawi (talk) 00:17, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Three editors were in agreement. I also agree with the move. It's been two months.

I think most people searching the term would be looking for the modern country, not the historical constituent country. It's irrelevant that 'we must type "Southern Ireland (1921-1922)|Southern Ireland"'. Usage on Wikipedia is not a determining factor. See WP:DAB#Determining a primary topic.

We could measure traffic statistics for the links from the disambiguation page.

Rob984 (talk) 00:46, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Lead again

Once and for all, Southern Ireland never had any real existence. For a start, the Government of Ireland Act did not even say that there would be a country called Southern Ireland (or for that matter, a country called Northern Ireland). It said there would be a parliament of Southern Ireland. But in effect there never was. Four elected member turned up to the "opening" of the parliament, elected a speaker, and adjourned sine die. There was no executive, as required by the Act. Therefore, there was no country. The 26 counties continued under the Dublin Castle administration until that administration handed over power to the Provisional Government in January 1922. The descriptions should not be similar to those for Northern Ireland because Northern Ireland convened a parliament, elected a government and became a de facto as well as a de jure polity. This lead serves as an introduction to the article and a summary of its most important aspects, and it uses proper sources, i.e. books, instead of "statutory rules" and "court circulars". Reverting to "the way it was for years" goes against the whole philosophy of Wikipedia, which is about improving articles. Scolaire (talk) 10:10, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Remove 'polity'?

As mentioned in a recent edit summary[3] calling SI a 'de jure polity' is unsuited to the lead. I do not see that wording sourced anywhere, and 'polity' is an unusual word, which we should avoid if some other wording can be used. Given the bare facts described in the article, would the following revision to the first sentence be acceptable?

Southern Ireland was a de jure polity created by subdivision of Ireland named in the Government of Ireland Act 1920 as part the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland for the establishment of a parliament and other institutions for the internal government of the southern counties of Ireland.

That is accurate and suffices when followed by the information which immediately follows. Qexigator (talk) 18:17, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

I don't object in principle, but it won't make a lot of sense to a new reader. Is there not some better way of phrasing it? "Ireland's southern counties" is completely wrong. As the next sentence but one tells us, it was for 26 out of 32 counties – Ireland's southern counties are Kerry, Cork, Waterford and Wexford. Scolaire (talk) 23:27, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Better, but still not explaining the article well. The Act didn't just select 26 counties, or about five-sixths of the island, at random, it partitioned the country into Northern Ireland and "Southern Ireland". If it's to be phrased that way, it would be better to say "...for the establishment of a parliament and other institutions for the internal government of Ireland, minus the six counties of Northern Ireland", or some such. Scolaire (talk) 23:56, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 12 April 2015

• Southern Ireland (1921–22) → Southern Ireland
• Southern Ireland → Southern Ireland (disambiguation)

– Southern Ireland was the title used on Wikipedia for the former UK country for many years. The country is referenced hundreds of places, mostly in history articles. In February 2015 this was changed to the current arrangement without any discussion on this project page. The change left us with a horendously cumbersome "Southern Ireland (1921-1922)" title page for the country. Now, every time we want to reference the country we have to type "Southern Ireland (1921-1922)|Southern Ireland". There was no real need for a DAB page but I am happy for it to be kept but at its own titled page. Frenchmalawi (talk) 16:01, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose move. This "former UK country" never existed in fact, as the article tells. It may well be "referenced hundreds of places" (because the web is a big place) but it never gets more than the briefest of mentions. There is no reason it should be the primary topic, hence the recent – agreed – move to its current title. Scolaire (talk) 16:34, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

It was never a 'former' UK country, even de jure. Qexigator (talk) 18:28, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support. User: Scolaire made the recent moves I am trying to change. His remark above that Southern Ireland never existed is telling. Maybe that's why he thinks Southern Ireland is of so little importance that it doesn't deserve to be the primary topic. I absolutely disagree. Southern Ireland existed and was really important!!! It existed at law, it had its own government (direct rule followed by a provisional government), it had its own courts, it had its own police etc., its own elections etc. Saying S.I. didn't exist is just like saying Northern Ireland didn't exist during the times its Parliament or Assembly were suspended. Does that make sense to you? How can we say it is of so little importance that it does not deserve to be the primary topic when it has a bunch of affiliated articles which are now inconsistently titled: Parliament of Southern Ireland, Provisional Government of Southern Ireland etc. Have a look at the Dab page. The idea that S.I. could be confused with the R.O.I, or an EU constituency is the reason given for this change. Does that sound like a good enough reason to dump the country as the primary topic? Frenchmalawi (talk) 17:12, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose inconvenient or not the new title is much more WP:RECOGNIZABLE In ictu oculi (talk) 17:57, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose, for same reason as In ictu oculi, and never was a country. Qexigator (talk) 18:28, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose It's not important in what sense the whatever-it-was existed. It's not important to save a few keystrokes. (29 per link, for an article that's only been linked on 244 pages. Compare that to the keystrokes spent trying to save those keystrokes.) The readers are important. No-one has yet made a good case that readers who type in "Southern Ireland" wish to or expect to find this article. NebY (talk) 18:34, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose Per NebY. Objecting to this recent move, which is obviously commonsense, is false pedantry. Most readers aren't going to think that "Southern Ireland" is going to lead them to this limited period article. It's an aspect of WP:COMMONNAME: that it was an "official" name for a limited period doesn't give the reader enough clues as to what this article is about, as opposed to what the average reader may think it's about. "Horrendously cumbersome". I don't think so: it seems a reasonable pithy compromise given that if we were to be going for WP:PRECISION it should be Southern Ireland (Entity created by the Government of Ireland Act 1920 but never really existed and even in theory lasted only a few months) DeCausa (talk) 19:33, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose per Scolaire and per NebY. "Horrendously cumbersome" my hat! Snappy (talk) 21:59, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose. A search for "Southern Ireland" on DuckDuckGo yields various pages that promote tours of Kenmare, Baltimore, and Dungarvan, but nothing about this entity. The initializer (talk) 04:30, 13 April 2015 (UTC)