Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Garrett Sutton

Garrett Sutton

Garrett Sutton (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Article's subject fails notability. References are either dead links, are not independent of the subject, or connect to web sites where the author has paid to have his or her work reviewed and then have the review published. There does not appear to be sufficient independent coverage of this person to justify an article— such media coverage as there is appears to be of his work, not him, and most of it looks like it is self-generated. KDS4444^Talk 06:02, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

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While it is true that Kirkus and Pacific Reviews require payment to review books, reviewers have the right to write negative reviews. Authors can ask that negative reviews not be published, but their fee is not returned. In that way, they are taking an acceptable risk to have their work reviewed and Kirkus and Pacific remain notable sources. Wikipedia also maintains articles for other Rich Dad author (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharon_Lechter) who have similar references. However, the Garrett article will be properly edited snd remove sections that point to dead links. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Woodenships513 (talk • contribs) 14:49, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

(I think that whether or not the author risks having a bad review, this is still not evidence of notability, only of an attempt to purchase it— a bad review would also be evidence of notability if it came from a truly independent source, which it appears these are not.) KDS4444^Talk 15:11, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. Kirkus and Pacific had full authority to give the book a negative review. These organizations are not paid to prepare positive reviews, only to write them. I also feel its relevant to note that Wikipedia allowed Amazon user reviews as credible references for Sharon Lechter, along with several personal websites. In the meantime, sections in Garrett's page that were linked to non-working links(bestseller list) were removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.95.232.145 (talk) 17:30, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

You have missed my point. My point is that any review which is the result of the author having paid for it is not evidence of that author's notability, only of the depth of his pocketbook, and notability is not something one can purchase. It does not matter whether the review is positive or negative, it matters only that it is not independent of the subject. (That Amazon user reviews may have been treated as credible references in other articles is not the focus of this deletion debate.) KDS4444^Talk 02:11, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 13:42, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Law-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 13:42, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 13:43, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Natg 19 (talk) 00:26, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

• If the content of the two reviews is objective, and I have no opinion on whether it is, excluding it from the encyclopedia doesn't seem to me to sit well with our object of being "the sum total of human knowledge". James500 (talk) 08:12, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

James500, what if they are objective but not independent? I am not questioning the objectivity of the reviews, I am questioning their independence. The author paid to have the reviews written— that to me means they lack independence of the author. (BTW, "sum total of human knowledge" and "an indiscriminate collection of information" sound a lot alike, don't they? I am just noticing this.)

Consider this scenario: I, KDS4444, decide I want Wikipedia to have an article on me. I am not notable (and really, I am not, trust me here), but I decide to write a book about, oh, say, how great my grandmother was (and she was a great lady, but probably not a notable one by Wikipedia's standards). I show it around, but no one wants to review the work of an unpublished author (okay, I actually have published a couple of things, but let's ignore those). So then I realize, "Hey, I can PAY some organization and THEY will HAVE to write a review of my work!" I cut them a check, and a month or so later my book gets reviewed— let's say it gets terrible reviews: "Who wants to read 800 pages about Midwestern nurse with four kids and a dog?" etc. And let's say I do the same thing elsewhere, paying other organizations to write reviews, all of them awful. Fine. Then I can come to Wikipedia and write up my article: "The works of KDS4444 received negative critical responses from several sources", and I can list my sources as these places I paid to write the reviews. Does this then mean I am notable? God, I hope not! Because I am not notable, and I know it. And neither is my dearly departed grandmother (could I use those reviews as evidence of her notability? Please say, "No"). Notability should come from sources independent of their subjects. When the New York Times Book Review looks at your work and reviews it, they aren't getting paid by you to do it. And even if they say your work sucks, that might still make you notable for having been reviewed by them! I am beating a dead horse here, but do you see my point? KDS4444^Talk 15:28, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

Garrett's history as a writer did not come out of the blue, nor was it an independent project, as your hypothetical example seems to suggest. Garrett wrote his books under the Rich Dad brand, of which he is also an adviser. He also co-wrote books with Sharon Lechter, another noted member of the Rich Dad organization. This debate seems to center solely on the reviews he received and not the other examples of notability present in the article. I also think it is important to note that Wikipedia has accepted Kirkus Reviews for numerous authors. While I understand that other articles do not necessarily play into this debate, how can Wikipedia maintain its reputation if it accepts something at one moment and dismisses it the next? Past examples need to always be taken into account. A search for Kirkus Reviews on Wikipedia shows how many authors and books use their reviews as notable references (and sometimes as the only references). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Woodenships513 (talk • contribs) 20:43, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 03:41, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

North America, I would like to request the closure of this deletion notice. The second relisting was posted over a week ago with no additional debate. The one issue regarding Kirkus Reviews has been addressed by establishing that Wikipedia has accepted reviews from this source in the past. None of the other references, nor his direct connection with other Wiki articles, have been under dispute. Additionally, the article has been updated with new references, namely:

--An award nomination for IndieFab's Book of the year

--A review from Publisher's Weekly — Preceding unsigned comment added by Woodenships513 (talk • contribs) 18:29, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz ^Humbug! 13:54, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Spartaz, WIkipedia guidelines say that articles should not be relisted more than twice. If an article is relisted more than twice, guidelines recommend a short explanation on the reason why. Can you please share why you feel a third relisting is necessary?