Talk:Constance Markievicz

Scouting

Why is the Scouting portal on this page? The article should at least mention the connection.Rlevse 18:40, 18 January 2007 (UTC)...Apparently connnected to Fianna Éireann, but that is not considered Scouting, so I removed it.Rlevse 18:43, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Fianna Éireann while not part of the international scouting movement was a nationalist movement inspired by scouting in the same way that the Hitler Youth was a facist movement inspired by scouting. So there is a connection and it should be reflected some way in the scouting articles. --Gramscis cousin 08:37, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

IRB

I am not sure that the Countess was in the IRB (not sure they admitted women at all) definitely in the period when the IRB was most active around her time her allegiance was with the Citizen's Army. Please source if I'm wrong on this. --Gramscis cousin 08:34, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Spelling: Markiewicz v. Markievicz

What is the correct spelling of her name? Is it MarkieWicz or MarkieVicz? A google search for Countess Markievicz returns 18,000 whereas a search for Countess Markiewicz returns 779. On oireachtas members database her name is given as "Countess Constance Georgina de Markievicz". In the current article both versions are used. Snappy56 17:43, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I see that the ODNB spells it V as dos its list of sources, so maybe we should change to that. Ref: S. Pašeta, ‘Markievicz , Constance Georgine, Countess Markievicz in the Polish nobility (1868–1927)’, Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, Oxford University Press, 2004 accessed 22 July 2007 --mervyn 07:14, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

BUT confusingly the Polish WP article uses W. I don't know enough about Polish naming conventions to comment! --mervyn 07:18, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Dublin City Council spells it with a V as in 'Markievicz Leisure Centre' [1] and I'm pretty sure her statue in St. Stephen's Green spells her name with a V as well. Anyone native Polish speakers out there, who can clear up this confusion? Snappy56 14:04, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

The Countess was closely associated with Sligo and as a Sligo man there was many buildings, streets, pubs etc named after her and its always spelt Markievicz suck as Markievicz Park, Markievicz Heights (large area in the south of Sligo town), Markievicz House (the headquarters of the Northernwestern Health Board). For this reason I would say V not W.--Vintagekits 14:49, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I am a native Polish speaker and I can assure you that the correct Polish writing of the Countess' surname is Markiewicz (in Polish alphabet the "v" character doesn't exist at all - of course with except of foreign words). The version with "v" was probably created to make reading easier for English-speakers (Polish "w" is spelt like English "v"). --Elvus (talk) 13:34, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that. It's always nice to have a definitive answer. Scolaire (talk) 17:57, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree that in Poland it would most certainly have been spelled with a "w". But that doesn't necessarily mean that's how she spelled her own name in a non-Polish context. If all the monuments, parks etc have it with the "v", I can only assume they would have checked as to how spelled her own name rather than just changing it by administrative caprice. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:13, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

she shot an unarmed Dublin policeman

Is it true that on her way to the 1916 Easter Rising she shot an unarmed Dublin policeman? If so, did she ever explain why she did this?--User:RFMJR (talk) 00:02, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

It is true. He might have been the first casulty. He objected to the citizen army digging trenches in Stephen's Green ClemMcGann (talk) 02:04, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, at least Kevin Myers claimed it was true so I suppose it must have been. Interesting to know the cops were not armed in those days. Ahem!86.42.80.145 (talk) 08:04, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

The Dublin Metropolitan Police were unarmed ClemMcGann (talk) 09:07, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

The problem with taking Kevin Myers as a source is that he has an oft-stated political bias in these matters, do we have a bone fide historian who says this happened? ANB (talk) 14:11, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Move article?

I don't believe Constance Markiewicz was ever known or addressed as Constance Georgine, Countess Markiewicz. Certainly I have never seen it in the literature. Countess Markiewicz, yes, but not the whole thing. The article has been named according to the naming convention for UK countesses, but Markiewicz was married to a Polish count, and never lived in Poland, so the convention does not apply. Interestingly, the Polish Wikipedia article is titled "Constance Markiewicz", as are the German, Spanish, French and Norwegian articles (the Irish article is titled "Constance Gore-Booth Markiewicz"). Any objections if I move this to Constance Markiewicz? Scolaire (talk) 11:08, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Please move, makes sense. --mervyn (talk) 11:55, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

agree - ClemMcGann (talk) 12:00, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I have been bold and moved it. I will revert if anybody objects later. Scolaire (talk) 12:42, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Title

She was not a UK countess therefore was not known as or called Constance Georgine, Countess Markiewicz but Countess Markiewicz. Check the Polish wikipedia. It is very relevant. Snappy56 (talk) 16:33, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Proof? --Counter-revolutionary (talk) 17:01, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Firstly, why are you attempted to impose one country (UK) title and styles on on another (Poland) ? The Polish wikipedia intro is as follows: Constance Georgine Markiewicz (Markievicz), zw. Countess Markiewicz (Markievicz), z domu Gore-Booth, irl. Chúntaois Constance Markievicz. You can read here too and here as well. In Dáil Éireann transcripts, she is referred to as COUNTESS MARKIEVICZ. Did you actually read the article? She was an ardent Irish republican who spent most of her life fighting for an Irish Republic, yet you want to impose UK titles and styles on her posthumously? Finally, I intend to visit her grave, photograph her headstone and upload it to wikimedia commons, as the title on one's headstone usually indicates how one was addressed and what one was known as in life. Snappy56 (talk) 17:18, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I am more than aware of who she is and what she did. This has nothing to do with the posthumous imposition of a UK style (ignoring for the moment that the terminology of a UK title is irrelevant, especially given that it could equally involve imposition of the styles of the Peerage of Ireland - the country she loved so). Do as you wish. Counter-revolutionary (talk) 19:17, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't like the current (Snappy's) intro and infobox because it implies that "Countess" was a nickname, and not a title. In moving the page I never intended for the full name to be expunged from the record. A compromise would be acceptable: I suggest "Constance Georgine, Countess Markiewicz" for the 'Name' in the infobox, "Constance Markiewicz" for the picture caption, and the intro per Snappy ("Constance Georgine Markiewicz, also known as Countess Markiewicz"). Scolaire (talk) 07:25, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Nobody's expunging anything which is factual. Can you prove she was known as, styled as or addressed as Constance Georgine, Countess Markiewicz or Constance, Countess Markiewicz while alive? This is a UK title style, in fact there is not title of count in the UK, a countess being the wife of an Earl. Why do you want to impose the title style of the wife of a British Earl on an Irish woman who was married to a Polish Count? In the Dáil records, she is referred to as Constans de Markiewicz and Countess Markiewicz. Also her headstone simply says Countess Markiewicz + date of death. To compromise, I have re-worded the intro, removing the also known as since you feel this implies a nickname though I disagree; and add Countess Markiewicz to the photo caption in the infobox and retaining her full married name above the photo. Snappy56 (talk) 16:20, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

That's fine, Snappy. You didn't need to get snappy about it. Scolaire (talk) 23:18, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, Snappy, in the Dáil Members Database, she is referred to as Countess Constance Georgina de Markievicz, i.e., with a V not a W. Perhaps this (as mentioned previously) should be reflected in the title of the article? --The.Q^(t)(c) 11:55, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it appears she had many names and titles. There was a discussion on the V vs. W spelling before on this page but it was inconclusive. The Polish wikipedia spells her name with a W but has the V spelling in brackets afterwards. As far I can tell, the reason for the V spelling in English was to keep the same pronunciation, as W is pronounced V in Polish, though I may be wrong on that. Snappy56 (talk) 13:28, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Worse than the above on how she should be styled, was that her husband assumed the title "Count", and so she wasn't a real Countess in Poland or anywhere. This was researched and published in 2006. A bit like "The O Rahilly", but if you are known by a name it becomes your name and, like a deed poll, it becomes real. So legally Countess was like a nickname. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.18.211.113 (talk) 09:47, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

I have responded to this at Talk:Casimir Markievicz#Fake title of Count. --Scolaire (talk) 21:09, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

1908 Manchester North-West by-election

The suggestion that Constance Markievicz stood as a candidate in the 1908 Manchester by-election against Winston Churchill is extremely puzzling and seems incorrect since women at that date were only permitted to stand in local (municipal) elections and for roles such as Poor Law Guardians. They would not be legally entitled to stand for Parliament until 1918. Contemporary sources such as the Manchester Guardian reference Countess Markiwiecz being active, together with other women suffragists, including her sister Eva Gore-Booth in opposing Winston Churchill's candidature since the Liberal Government's policy at the time was opposed to women's suffrage. Constance Markievicz made headlines by driving a coach and four white horses through the streets at election time [Anne Marecco, The Rebel Countess, Weidenfield and Nicholson 1967; the Manchester Guardian 1908] but her actions seem directed at defeating Chruchill not at promoting any specific alternative candidate.Legionseagle (talk) 07:17, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

The user (Shanequinlan01) who added the claim is no longer active. If it is an error then you should remove it or re-write the sentence to clarify that she campaigned against Churchill but was not a candidate herself. Snappy56 (talk) 08:46, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Court martial

Is it true that newly released documents show that she actually begged for her life before the tribunal? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.127.126.110 (talk) 09:29, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

No. There are no newly released documents as far as I know. It's true that some British officer present at the court martial (I forget who) told that story. All serious historians consider it a total fabrication. Scolaire (talk) 09:36, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Ruth Dudley Edwards, in her 2006 lecture on Countess Markievicz, says this is true. The recording is here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Filceolaire (talk • contribs) 15:19, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 02:58, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

---

Constance Markiewicz → Constance Markievicz – "Constance markievicz" returns 45400 results on google, "constance markiewicz" returns 32500 results. While I have no doubt that her husband was born adn was known by Markiewicz, Constance herself was known generally by Markievicz, as can be seen in the names of places named after her (see prior discussion of her name a few sections up). 79.97.144.17 (talk) 03:23, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

*Doubtful: If they were married, they should reasonably have the same name with the same spelling, shouldn't they? And the difference is not overwhelming. HandsomeFella (talk) 08:54, 6 August 2011 (UTC) (see below)

*Oppose: Needs more than a Google search.--Domer48_'fenian' 09:17, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

• Support: Google Books - always a better indicator - gives 7,500 results for "constance markievicz" and 1,500 for "constance markiewicz". Note that when you search for "markiewicz", it asks "Did you mean: constance markievicz?", showing that that is by far the more common search term. But most importantly, the former search brings up Prison letters of Countess Markievicz, which is presumably a collection of letters she signed herself. See also #Spelling: Markiewicz v. Markievicz above where it was established that "Markiewicz" is the correct spelling in Polish but "Markievicz" is the most common spelling in Ireland. Finally, I have found Casimir in the 1911 census, where he spells his name "Markievicz". Scolaire (talk) 13:35, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

No immediate opinion on the subject at hand, but great research and links. RashersTierney (talk) 20:22, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Agree with RashersTierney. This raises the question whether the count should be moved too. In the census, his name is stated as Casimir Dunin Markievicz (with Markievicz as the only family name), and one has to assume that is what he called himself in Ireland, and thus WP:COMMONNAME applies. HandsomeFella (talk) 08:48, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

I would be in favour of moving his article to Casimir Dunin Markievicz - or preferably even Casimir Markievicz - since that is how he was known in Ireland, and he is not notable for anything he did in Poland/Ukraine/the Russian Empire. But let's wait and see what happens here first. Scolaire (talk) 14:45, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Agree. I'd prefer the version without the middle name. HandsomeFella (talk) 14:00, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

• Support - per info provided by Scolaire. It appears they used the V spelling in Ireland, presumably for pronunciation purposes. Also see Markievicz Leisure Centre. Snappy (talk) 18:03, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
• Support - per above.--Domer48_'fenian' 21:00, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
• Support move for the reasons outlined above. RashersTierney (talk) 22:24, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Polish song for ICA anthem?

Can anyone post any references to the Polish song that was supposedly adopted by her as an ICA anthem with changed lyrics? Which song was that? Is there any recording of her version? Silmethule (talk) 00:40, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

A quick search of Google Books brought me to Frank Robbins's Under the Starry Plough. On p. 46 it says 'Madame Markievicz also wrote the song "Armed for the Battle", and dedicated it to the Citizen Army. The music was not original; it was the air of a revolutionary Polish song.' It seems to have the lyrics on p. 82. However, I very much doubt there is any recording of it. Scolaire (talk) 16:34, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

No, wait! I've found another one: Alice Acland, The Rebel Countess. '...adapted by Constance from an old Polish hymn, "With the Smoke of the Fires".' Could this be it? Scolaire (talk) 17:05, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Trial Claim

I've removed the claim made by William Wylie from the article. Its based on one (rather biased) individual's recollection of the trial and hasn't been supported by the court transcripts. If anyone disagrees, feel free to comment. CivisHibernius (talk) 19:40, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Gazelle

On what basis does it say that she is the 'gazelle' in Yeats' poem 'In Memory of Eva Gore-Booth and Con Markiewicz'?

Good question! This seems to suggest that Eva was the gazelle. --Scolaire (talk) 18:05, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Madame

In her political career she was generally referred to as "Madame Markievicz" or "Madame de Markievicz". In the 1919–22 Dáil transcripts, she is "Countess Markievicz" and "Madame Markieivicz" variously, with the latter predominating by 1922. I would have thought that, as a republican, she repudiated the noble title "Countess". Is there evidence that she explicitly addressed the question at all? The fact that it was a Polish rather than a British title might make the incongruity less pointed, but OTOH Poland was a republic after 1918. Admittedly Count Plunkett's title was also incongruous, but the Papal nobility would have been a special case for Catholic republicans of the era. According to Kathleen Behan, the upperclass ladies in Inghinidhe na hÉireann all used "Madame" in preference to "Mrs" or "Bean", which suggests but does not prove that "Lady", "Countess", etc. were inconceivable. "Madame" tout court was an affectionate nickname for Markievicz; was it sometimes pronounced "Madam"? Dev's eulogy: "Madame Markievicz is gone from us. Madame the friend of the toiler, the lover of the poor." jnestorius^(talk) 13:44, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

"Madame" was adopted by the members of Inghinidhe na hÉireann as an alternative to the English "Mrs", as you say. "Madame Gonne" and "Madame Markievicz" are the ones that are most commonly seen. "Bean" was used in Irish, but as Gonne and Markievicz did not have "Irish" names like, say, Mrs. Wyse Power ("Bean an Phaoraigh") they would never have used it. However, there is no evidence that she ever repudiated the title of Countess, nor any that I know of that she embraced it (unlike Plunkett). "Countess" should be used in the article where appropriate e.g. "he and Gore-Booth married in London on 29 September 1900 making her Countess Markievicz." Otherwise, she should be referred to simply as "Markievicz", as is the convention in all biographical articles. There are at least a half-dozen instances of "the Countess" that should be changed. There should also be mention in the article that she was addressed as "Madame". Scolaire (talk) 17:57, 11 May 2015 (UTC)