Talk:Holnicote Estate/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Hchc2009 (talk · contribs) 21:50, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

I'll read through and start the review properly on Friday. Hchc2009 (talk) 21:50, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

Well-written:

(a) the prose is clear and concise, respects copyright laws, and the spelling and grammar are correct;

• Worth linking less familiar British terms like Edward I, the Crown, seat, tithe roll, Master in Chancery, bridleway etc.

• I've made a start on the specific itemised here - will try to do others as I come across them.— Rod ^talk 16:13, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• Purists would probably prefer "Domesday Book" vice "the Domesday Book"... ;)

• That is a new omne on me and I would welcome thoughts on this. I have always called it The Domesday Book (or 1086) or similar.— Rod ^talk 16:13, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• What's a virgate?

• A virgate is a unit of land. It was wikilinked on 2nd use - I've changed this to 1st use.— Rod ^talk

• "research by J. L. Vivian" - who is/was...? (e.g. "the Victorian historian, J. Vivian")

• wikilink to John Lambrick Vivian added.— Rod ^talk 16:13, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• " lists twelve tenements let," - tenement will mean several different things to some readers; "tenancies"?

• wikilink to Tenement (law) added.— Rod ^talk 16:13, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• "forester or ranger of Exmoor" - I suspect that many readers will be uncertain what this means

• Explained - the king's chief officer of the royal forest.— Rod ^talk 17:04, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• "Acland was a famous staghunter who used his wife's Exmoor estates of Pixton and Holnicote as his hunting seats." - given that the article is about Holnicote, not Pixton, could Holnicote come first?

• Order reversed.— Rod ^talk 17:04, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• "His hospitality to his fellow staghunters was legendary, as had been that of his father." - the second half of this feels redundant, as it was mentioned only two paragraphs up!

• Removed.— Rod ^talk 17:04, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• "which was the largest ever donation received by the National Trust" - "was" or "is"...? (it is unclear if the past tense implies a bigger donation after that)

• I will need to check but I believe it is still the largest in area (value in £ may be a different issue).— Rod ^talk 17:04, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• "The estate is renowned for its picturesque and unspoiled landscapes and for its historic role, together with the Acland family's other Exmoor estate of Pixton, as a spiritual home of West Country staghunting in the 18th century." - is it really "renowned" (i.e. "known or talked about by many people; famous") for its role as the spiritual home of staghunting in the 18th century? I know there is a citation, but I can't imagine very many people talk about 18th century staghunting at all, let alone its spiritual home in this estate. Is there a better term?

• I have revised to "a home of West Country staghunting in the 18th century. Despite the fact that some of us talk about nothing else.— Rod ^talk 17:04, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• "In 1941 another fire seriously damaged the building. It was being used as a hotel since the granting of a licence to sell alcohol in 1936." - I couldn't work out why the granting of an alcohol license was important here (NB: it may be explained in the citation) - if it isn't, could it be "In 1936 the lodge became a hotel, but was badly damaged by fire in 1941."?

• Changed.— Rod ^talk 17:04, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• "and the British Iron Age Bury Castle" - unclear why this is "British Iron Age" (and Iron Age is linked above)

• Changed.— Rod ^talk 17:04, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• "In the 16th century, Selworthy Beacon was (as its name implies) " - I didn't think the bit in brackets was needed here

• Removed.— Rod ^talk 17:04, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• "Many of the other cottages, whose walls are painted with limewash that has been tinted creamy yellow with ochre, some of which are now rented out, are still thatched and are listed buildings." - the noun and the verbs here are at opposite ends of the sentence, which made it a bit clunky!

• Reordered sentence - can you take another look - I'm still not sure the grammar works here.— Rod ^talk 17:04, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• "Other traditional sights in the village include thatched cottages, a forge and an old-fashioned red telephone box. " - is there a better way of saying "traditional sights"...? it felt a big "touristy" to me...

• Changed to "features of..."

• "Horner is on the eastern bank of Horner Water on which there is a restored, but non-working, watermill and which is crossed by a packhorse bridge, and on the route of the Coleridge Way. There are two medieval packhorse bridges. One is known as Hacketty Way Bridge." - the number of bridges here is unclear (is the first bridge one of the two bridges? If so, is it Hacketty Way Bridge, or the other bridge?)

• Revised.— Rod ^talk 17:04, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• Worth deconflicting the "scheduled" and "ancient" monuments (I think the ancient monument is also a scheduled monument)

• I'm sure we have debated these terms before not all Ancient monuments are Scheduled monuments (although most are) but these two articles could potentially be merged at some point in the future.— Rod ^talk 17:04, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

(b) it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.

• The articles is about the Holnicote Estate, but the infobox is titled "Holnicote House"; I'm presuming that the latter is a mistake. Hchc2009 (talk) 06:44, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• Changed.— Rod ^talk 18:40, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• There are lots of quotes in italics; normally the MOS asks for quotes to be simply in speechmarks.

• Hope I've caught all of these.— Rod ^talk 18:40, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• Worth running the duplicate link tool over it (North Devon Staghounds, Pixton etc. are coming up)

• Done.— Rod ^talk 18:40, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• Some of the quotes need in-line attribution; e.g. "Although it is "very probable" that..." - it's cited, but the text doesn't give the reader any real indication of who said this (ditto the later quotes).

• The specific one you mention says "Although the local historian and lawyer Charles Chadwyck-Healey described it is "very probable" ..." so I think it is clear who said this. I will look for others.— Rod ^talk 18:40, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• Can I check that "Sweetworthy on the lower slopes is the site of two Iron Age hill forts or enclosures and a deserted medieval settlement." needs all five citations? (NB: if it does, no problem, but it seems quite a few for the sentence)

• The Exmoor Historic Environment Record (EHER) covers the hills forts and medieval settlement in 2 different records and Historic England uses 3 separate citations sheets for the same things, so I would keep them.

• Some copyright violation around "The hill is blanketed in heather..." - have a look at the cited source and you'll see what I mean...

• I think they took it from a previous version of this article but I have reworded.— Rod ^talk 18:40, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Cheers. If it's a copy from here, then it would need independent referencing as well! Hchc2009 (talk) 18:51, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Factually accurate and verifiable:

(a) it provides references to all sources of information in the section(s) dedicated to the attribution of these sources according to the guide to layout;

• There are several different citation styles in the article; while not a GA requirement, it would be great if they were combined into a consistent version.
• Worth checking the formatting (e.g. fns 23 has some raw wiki formatting showing, 48 and 50 have an odd "pp. 51–." formatting, as if they're missing the second page number.)
• The article doesn't seem to be using Barrister or Pevsner.

(b) it provides in-line citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines;

• "It includes Dunkery and Selworthy Beacons..." - the two citations for this sentence don't seem to support the claims made about what is in the estate.
• "The estate also plays host to a point to point course on which many Exmoor hunts hold their meetings throughout the spring" - this isn't supported by the citation
• "Respected and beloved by all the countryside," - the source for this is a mid-19th century member of the gentry and keen hunter; is it actually a reliable secondary source for this sort of claim about the views of the local workers etc., or should we be making it clearer that this was one person's opinion?
• "One of Allerford's main attractions is the much-photographed packhorse bridge." - doesn't seem to be cited
• "Two identical versions exist, both owned by the National Trust in Devon, one at Saltram House, the other at Killerton House." - not sure why this is actually relevant, but it needs a citation if its being used.

(c) it contains no original research.

• None found, but note some issues with the referencing above. Hchc2009 (talk) 07:25, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Broad in its coverage:

(a) it addresses the main aspects of the topic;

• Yes. Hchc2009 (talk) 07:25, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

(b) it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).

• "Pixton was the larger establishment, richly equipped with silver-plate and linen, including 73 tablecloths..." Pixton is a totally different estate; is it relevant to Holnicote to describe the tablecloths at Pixton?
• " A letter dated 1759 written on behalf of Courtenay Walrond of Bradfield House describes the Acland hospitality..." Again, seems to be about Pixton, not Holnicote.

• Both gone.— Rod ^talk 17:04, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without bias, giving due weight to each.

• "The National Trust caused much local and national controversy when it banned staghunting on the estate in the early 21st century." - the citations don't back this wording up. They suggest that there was controversy (at least nationally, I'm not sure they stress the local) when staghunting was banned, but not that the Trust caused it (which is POV language unless firmly backed by citations). Hchc2009 (talk) 07:18, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.

• A lot of recent changes in the run-up to the GA, but no edit warring etc. Hchc2009 (talk) 06:44, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Illustrated, if possible, by images:

(a) images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content;

• File:HolnicoteDomesdayBook.png needs a copyright tag to cover the photographic rights (possibly a PD-Art?) Hchc2009 (talk) 06:44, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

(b) images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.

• Is "A similar collection of stag heads amassed by his father the 7th Baronet, and much beloved by the latter, was destroyed during a fire at Holnicote in 1779." necessary in the stag caption? It makes a for a long caption.
• "Memorial tablet to Charles Staynings (died 1700) in All Saints Church, Selworthy." - the full stop isn't needed as it isn't a full sentence. Hchc2009 (talk) 06:44, 22 May 2015 (UTC)