Talk:Ultimate X-Men

9/11

"Ultimate X-Men #1 starts with Magneto's Brotherhood committing gigantic bombings which destroy much of Washington and New York. The events of the issue, published in February 2001, contain chilling similarities with the September 11, 2001 attacks."

I'm going to go ahead and delete this... I'm looking through the first couple pages of the issue, and except for the fact that one took place in New York, I'm failing to see how the attacks resemble those of 9/11. If anyone can shed light on this... etc. Sumogrip 03:48, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Professor X

"It is constantly hinted that he subtly uses mind control to make his X-Men follow him." Where? And how?

The first time this is mentioned (it think) is by protheus. He's egging beast on that Storm only loves him because Xavier makes her beleve she is. I think Storm herself also mentions something about it even before that, saying something likeit's not her style to remain with a group for so long (she has a criminal background). After the Proteus Arc, beast keeps mentioning the fact that Xavier might make them do things with his mind. This is part of the reason he leaves the x-men.

Also in the most dangerous game arc Dazzler, Angel and Nightcrawler discuss the possiblity they are not acting on their free will against the orders of Xavier, like they think. He might let them think they are so he doesnt get the blame if something goes wrong. Its a big issue in the series, i dont know how you could miss it? --Robje 21:20, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Robje is so right, it's like one of the biggest points of the series!

Deaths

I love the Ultimate universe, and I don't expect every character to be as prolific as their original counterparts, but does anybody else get a little saddened by the deaths? A few of my favorite characters never even made it out of a single story arc... :(

This isn't really a discussion of the wiki, just sort of wanted to talk.. but since you're not supposed to do that, how about a simple section in the article for definitely-dead major characters? With a spoiler warning of course... Eh, maybe not. :P

-Hawk

I love the Ultimate versions sometimes it really sucks specially they killed Beast/Gambit, they are major characters of X-Men, and their origins are way too different from the original versions, Emma is like a mother, Dazzler is a heavy-rock star, Colossus is gay and long hairs pf the boys.--Hotwiki 09:55, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

-michael

i love the ultimate universe to mostly ultimate x-men i read and like ultimate x men more than

any other ongoing title ,and speak of deaths well ultimate marvel is much more serious about this thing if the dude dies he stays death unless he survives some how not magically bring back to life,like in the classic marvel general thunder ross survived because he was more fantastic four-related than x-men later same thing about hammerhead from the gamit story arc "thief in the night" wich appears in spider-man "warriors" arc but in case of hammerhead it never openly explained how he survived:gambit charged-up his metal skull

and overall i like this version of x-men

because it kinda just more realistic and violent less chessy soupopera like the main marvel 616

It's legit to love both versions, both IMHO are OK and complement each other, just like many people love Star Trek: The Original Series and Star Trek: The Next Generation. And BTW, this discussion has been led at least 1000x times ;) Onomatopoeia 16:15, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Fastball special - triviabit

"As of December 2005, after almost five years and 65 issues, Colossus and Wolverine have not done their trademark fastball special move yet." They does it on the cover of issue 25 (193.216.215.41 17:34, 12 January 2006 (UTC))

I know, but the cover doesn't count IMHO. I am still waiting for it to happen IN PANEL :( Onomatopoeia 16:09, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Magician (Elliot Boggs)

Who is this guy? I know he's new but should he be added to the team list?--Dil 19:57, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I started his page. Magician (comics)--Dil 20:10, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Be sure to check out this template page for tips on how to structure a new article. I've found it to be quite helpful. CovenantD 20:51, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Professor X changing memories?

I noticed the article states: "[Boggs] didn't dwell on his parent's deaths, raising the possibility Xavier changed his memories." Has this speculation been reported anywhere or is it just OR? I didn't get this idea from the comic at all. Newt 15:29, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Anyone? Newt 20:12, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

---

"It is semi ironic that Nightcrawler is an apparent homophobe" kurt is not homophobic

I see how people could think he is, but he is just sad Colossus kept it from all from him.

Given how outwardly religious Kurt is in the mainstream continuity, it isn't that big of a stretch for Ultimate Nightcrawler to be somewhat uncomfortable around homosexuals. He also isn't exactly acting homophobic, as much as he seems confused and dissapointed. It's not like he's setting Colossus' stuff on fire, or spitting on him.

On the other hand, Kurt did tell the comatose Alison that Peter is "an abomination," and that he "can't even begin to acknowledge what he is." That sounds pretty homophobic. Breakaway 20:00, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Ultimate Collections in soft covers?

Does anyone know if they are planning on putting out more Ultimate Collection of Ultimate X men without hard covers? There is Volume #1, which has THe Tomorrow People and Return to Weapon X, but this site only lists that one and know others, although they have more hard cover ones. Just wondering?

Relationship to other Ultimate Marvel characters

Anyone wanna volunteer writing up something about their relationship with the Fantastic Four since they did meet in UX4 and the President Thor Arc of UFF. -- whipsandchains 17:14, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Cameos and off-panel appearances

I removed "Given that Sinister was acting on orders from Apocalypse, some fans believe the apparently dead mutants will actually become the Ultimate version of the Horsemen of Apocalypse," which was added by an unregistered user as it seemed to be weasel-worded OR. The whole part about the mutants murdered by Sinister seems like it could be OR, but I left the rest as it was. Psyphics 15:46, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Gambit appears in the Savage Land in UXM #1.

please somebody can really specify excatly where

No, in fact, Gambit does not appear in UXM #1.Inmate42 18:34, 11 June 2006

so how is it that the articlemaster trusts some delinquent to add something (UTC)

Ultimate Cable

There is an Ultimate Version of Cable that will be released with Ultimate X-Men #75. It's stated in this article. He is the first picture on the right.

Scott/Alex ages

I know, when Alex is first introduced in the New Mutants story arc, he's reffered to as Scott's older brother, but in the Magnetic North storyline Bobby reffers to Alex as Scott's kid brother, implying (to me, at least) that Scott is older. Did I misread, or what?67.142.130.41 02:30, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

iceman was joking as usual

alex is older brother just but has a younger mentality

Sabretooth

It says that Sabretooth was a former brotherhood of mutants memeber and I seriously doubt that as Sabretooth is self-hating mutant.

of course not, "sabretooth" signs up with weapon-x and brotherhood for fun

oh and "mastermind" is totaly japanese-styled

This article is HUGE!!!

Any chance of splitting this article, especially the supporting characters like the Brotherhood, Academy of Tomorrow, Other villains, Other characters, and Cameos and off-panel appearances, and creating a List of Ultimate X-Men supporting characters? 60 KB is a tad large. Also, "Dangling plot-lines" reads like original research. --Newt ΨΦ 17:26, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, IMHO you are right. Like you, I propose splitting it into

• Brotherhood
• Academy of Tomorrow
• Supporting cast
• Dangling plotlines: actually, it is not original research (I could cite all the storylines which spawned them), but has grown arguably out of hand
• Trivia: has grown a bit out of hand
• Relationship to other Ultimate Marvel characters: whole new article
• Perhaps, a Category:Ultimate X-Men to connect all these new spin off articles?

Onomatopoeia 17:44, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Citing storylines (primary sources) that spawn "dangling plotlines" does not correct the problem that these are speculative and introduce analysis that we as editors cannot add. Including these as part of discussion of plot without speculation may be able to keep at least some (like the references to Prof. X controlling minds). For reference, read WP:NOR. Most, if not all, of the trivia is unnecessary to most any reader. The Brotherhood, Academy of Tomorrow, and Supporting cast could be put into one separate article like List of Ultimate X-Men supporting characters, or similar. --Newt ΨΦ 18:08, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

OK. If we do it that way, and I think all will be happy. Onomatopoeia 13:20, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Projects: shorten captions for each character (they are already present in the character Wikipages), outsource info into subpages, general trimming... Onomatopoeia 23:08, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Keep in mind that per WP:COMICS consensus, the ultimate character pages will most likely be merged with the 616 character articles. It's okay to have a bit of exposition, but not too much anyway. --Newt ΨΦ 23:38, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Merge from Ultimate X-Men (story arcs)

Appears to be a needless split to provide more space to detail the storylines. They should be put into perspective of the entire body of work and summarized in the main article. CovenantD 00:23, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Survey

• Merge CovenantD 00:23, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Seperate There is precident for this, and both articles have some meat on 'em. --InShaneee 02:43, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
• Merge per CovenantD --Chris Griswold 08:45, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Keep Seperate Story Arcs too big to be remerged, even if you trim them down to bare bones, and will only grow bigger as time passes. --Onomatopoeia 17:15, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

• • Neutral - Comment After discussion, Story Arcs could become base of "History of the Ultimate X-Men", if you add relevant artist information and misc sourced metainformation. But not sure whether to merge or keep seperate --Onomatopoeia 17:14, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
• Merge per CovenantD and "Wikipedia should not act solely as a summary of plot". I can see absolutely no need for this. --Newt ΨΦ 18:30, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Seperate, I beleive the Story Arcs page was split from the UX-men page because the page was way to big. Like Onomatopoeia says, the two pages merged would be way to big, and both pages are pretty trimmed as they are now, so there can't be any reduction of data without sacrifice of quality. JQF 23:58, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
• No Merge.--Jamdav86 13:43, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Seperate Just cut them all down, Onomatopoeia has a good example of what is needed below. - Seraph 31 19:48, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Seperate This article is too big already. TommyStardust 06:32, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Decision closed with no decision to merge. --Chris Griswold 08:47, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

We don't need a comic by comic or even an arc by arc summary of what happens in a comic series. That is not what Wikipedia does, and WP policy dictates that we not create articles that are solely plot summaries with no secondary source of criticism or analysis. To go into too much detail is to ignore fair use. --Newt ΨΦ 02:20, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

WP policy dictates that we not create articles that are solely plot summaries with no secondary source of criticism or analysis. In that case, we can nuke about every comic article in e.g. Category:Spider-Man storylines (e.g. Spider-Man: The Other or The Death of Jean DeWolff) or Category:X-Men storylines (e.g. X-Men: Deadly Genesis or House of M (story)) or Category:Elseworlds Titles (e.g. JLA: The Nail or Superman:Red Son) or even legitimate classics like Daredevil: Born Again. Many articles are 90% and more plot, and the much of the 10% is often trivia. Or should we keep the Story Arcs article, rename it somehow and rather flesh it out with background info from the main UXM page? I dunno. --Onomatopoeia 12:54, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

The limited series articles need to have a bit more than what they do. I personally don't believe they should exist either if they are just repositories for detailed plot summaries, but articles like Spider-Man: The Other could be saved because they were controversial arcs or stories and have lasting effects on the character. A little cited outside analysis, critical and popular response, themes, and statements from interviews with the creators as to why they changed the character/characters/world in such a way would make those articles much better. Daredevil: Born Again and The Death of Jean DeWolff both attempt to include analysis and/or themes. Even so, the plot summaries need to be trimmed. House of M (story) is definitely cruft as House of M could easily contain what is needed from a plot summary and the story article is just an excuse to needlessly expand the plot summary. For whatever reason, the House of M article does not even contain a plot summary nor a heading related to it, just a link to the story article under "See also".

Regardless, the comparison you give is misleading, as you mention only articles about significant limited series. Treating every arc of an ongoing series as significant enough to merit its presence in an article (or as an article) just leads to cruft. --Newt ΨΦ 13:41, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I just saw your "Articles that need to go" on your user page. Point taken, and although I am a bit wary, I assume good faith: if your want to raise the bar that high, ok. If all the articles really get better, I'll be happy. --Onomatopoeia 13:55, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I think the actual heading is "Articles on their way out." I'm interested in bettering articles more than deleting them, especially significant limited series articles. However, articles that can and will only serve to summarize plotlines from fictional works are against Wikipedia policy. --Newt ΨΦ 14:07, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Ultimate X-Men story arcs
Title	Writer/ Artist	Issue Nr.	Synopsis (first appearances)
The Tomorrow People	Mark Millar/ Adam Kubert	1-6	Magneto's Brotherhood has declared war on the human race, causing the US government to hunt mutants with Sentinel robots. Professor Charles Xavier recruits several reluctant mutants in order to stop the vicious circle of violence. (First X-Men, Brotherhood)
Return to Weapon X	Mark Millar/ Adam Kubert	7-12	The X-Men are kidnapped into Weapon X, a concentration camp which turns mutants into mindless killers. The Weapon X staff plan to subvert the US military, but they have not reckoned with Nick Fury, who has secret ties to Wolverine. (First Weapon X, Nick Fury, Sabretooth, Juggernaut)
You Always Remember Your First Love	Chuck Austen/ Essad Ribic	13 and 14	Homeless, antisocial mutant bum Remy LeBeau tries to save a young girl on the run from the crimelord Hammerhead. (First Gambit)
World Tour	Mark Millar/ Chris Bachalo and Adam Kubert	15-20	Along with Colonel Betsy Braddock, the X-Men try to catch Proteus, the psychotic mutant son of Charles Xavier and Dr. Moira MacTaggert. Feelings become uneasy when Xavier's dark past as a heartless husband and neglectful father becomes evident. (First Betsy Braddock, Moira Mactaggert, Proteus)
Hellfire and Brimstone	Mark Millar/ Kaare Andrews and Adam Kubert	21-25	To the terror of new recruit Shadowcat, Wolverine and Cyclops have a violent fistfight over Jean. Charles Xavier sends the two rivals on a rescue mission to the Savage Land. In the meanwhile, the other X-Men are invited to a high-society party by X-Men sponsor Sebastian Shaw, who has a sinister agenda regarding Jean Grey. (First Shadowcat, Hellfire Club)
Ultimate War	Mark Millar/ Chris Bachalo	n/a	The X-Men are framed by the Brotherhood and have to fight the Ultimates.
Return of the King	Mark Millar/ Adam Kubert	26-33	The Brotherhood plans to eliminate mankind. Forge, a mutant cybernetic genius, has built a machine which has supercharged Magneto's powers. The X-Men have to save the world without Professor X and Cyclops, who are both AWOL. (First Forge)
Blockbuster	Brian Michael Bendis/ Andy Kubert	34-39	Wolverine is ambushed and brutally attacked by unknown assailants, apparently rogue Weapon X members. With the help of Spider-Man, Daredevil and Black Widow, the X-Men find out that a larger anti-mutant conspiracy is in the works.
New Mutants	Brian Michael Bendis/ David Finch	40-45	Introduction of Angel, Dazzler and a standalone story of a boy with the power to kill any organic material around him. Introduction of second heroic mutant group, led by Emma Frost, and the conclusion of the Blockbuster conspiracy storyline. An X-Man is killed. (First Angel, Dazzler, Emma Frost, Havok, Polaris)
The Tempest	Brian K. Vaughan/ Brandon Peterson	46-49	The X-Men, still reeling from their team member, investigate a series of mutant killings. The killer is Mr. Sinister, a delusional scientist with hallucinations of a Lord Apocalypse. (First Mr. Sinister, Sunspot)
Cry Wolf	Brian K. Vaughan/ Andy Kubert	50-53	Rogue is abducted by Gambit, who leads them to his superiors, the Fenris twins. They offer Rogue the ability to touch, but when they try to blackmail her, Gambit and Rogue have to flee. (First Fenris)
The Most Dangerous Game	Brian K. Vaughan/ Stuart Immonen	54-57	On Genosha, Mojo Adams is hosting a gruesome Reality TV show in the near island of Krakoa which mutant felons are hunted to death. The senior X-Men investigate, while the junior X-Men break orders and try to save the latest Mojo prisoner, Longshot. (First Mojo, Arcade, Longshot, Spiral)
A Hard Lesson	Brian K. Vaughan/ Steve Dillon	58	While Professor X visits a bank, the bank is held up by mutant conjoined twins Syndicate, who try to get money to rescue their terminally ill sister. (First Syndicate)
Shock and Awe	Brian K. Vaughan/ Stuart Immonen	59-60	Wolverine and Storm battle Yuriko Oyama, who was willingly experimented on by Doctor Cornelius of Weapon X and lusts after the blood of her old thief rival Storm. (First Lady Deathstrike)
Ultimate X-Men Annual #1	Brian K. Vaughan/ Tom Raney	n/a	Gambit and Rogue fight Juggernaut, who tries to be reunited with his old flame from Weapon X days.
Magnetic North	Brian K. Vaughan/ Stuart Immonen	61-65	Emma Frost has formed a second heroic mutant group, the Academy of Tomorrow. However, on their first mission, Polaris inadventently kills dozens of people and lands in Magneto's cell. When the AoT tries to break out Lorna with force, the X-Men find themselves in a crossfire. As a side note, an X-Man outs himself as homosexual. (First Cannonball, Cypher)
Date Night	Robert Kirkman/ Tom Raney	66-68	Charles Xavier meets Lilandra Neramani, a mysterious benefactor interested in Jean. Storm and Wolverine fight Sabretooth, who tells he is Logan's son, and a mutant with reality-warping powers fights against Nick Fury. (First Lilandra, Magician)
Phoenix?	Robert Kirkman/ Ben Oliver	69-71	Jean Grey gets examined by Lilandra's Shi'ar church, with strange results. In the meanwhile, the Academy of Tomorrow gets attacked by the Brotherhood, and the X-Men have to intervene. (First Mystique)

I just whipped this up as a compromise from my side. Still too detailed, too abstract, just right, just not right, comments? --Onomatopoeia 15:49, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to see your analysis of how this compromise fits into the Wiki policy that Wikipedia "should not act solely as a summary of the plot of a work of fiction, but should offer summarised plots in conjunction with sourced analysis, offering detail on a work's achievements, impact or historical significance within the article, or as part of a series of articles per Wikipedia:Article series." CovenantD 16:04, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Can you give me an example in another comic book article of how good "sourced analysis", "detail, impact, significance of achievement" looks like? --Onomatopoeia 16:38, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I just flipped over X-Force and I think that it manages to blend in the story arcs with writer and artist history well in its "History" section. I didn't think of that before. --Onomatopoeia 16:55, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Those are, unfortunately, difficult to find in storyline articles :-) The Fall of the Mutants has a decent analysis in the first couple of paragraphs (but lacks sources). Superman: Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow? has some points in the Notes and Trivia (again unsourced). The Man of Steel (comic book) has an entire section on the impact of the series. Moving beyond the "storylines" articles, I think any of the major articles (e.g. Superman, Batman, Spider-Man) will have a section on the impact the character and stories on popular culture. I just happen to think that the "Ultimate (blank) story arcs" articles are the most egregious examples of the problem most have meeting the policy standard and the most easily corrected, by merging. CovenantD 17:08, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

How about forming everything into a section or article "History of the Ultimate X-Men", like in X-Men, X-Force or The Authority? Plot info mixed with artist info and historical references. --Onomatopoeia 17:26, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that would be much better, but also keep in mind the literary present, out-of-universe perspective, and the rest of Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction) as well as fair use, the former has been accepted by a consensus of editors at WP:COMIC. I would think, though, at this point at still under 100 issues, there's not enough information to merit a separate article, especially when X-Men doesn't have one for its history. --Newt ΨΦ 19:01, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

So, how about this as a start of "History of the Ultimate X-Men", article or section?

(Insert header text here)

Main reference: Mark Millar's Interview with Sequential Art

When it came out in 2000, Ultimate X-Men was only the second comic of the Ultimate Marvel line, predated by a few months by its sister title Ultimate Spider-Man. The heads of the Ultimate Universe, Bill Jemas and Joe Quesada, at first tried to hire Brian Michael Bendis to write this title, but he declined. [1]. They then contracted Scottish writer Mark Millar, best then known for his run on The Authority. He reinvented the X-Men in a more mature way, saying: "You're not competing with Cartoon Network on these books; you're competing with Buffy. (...) Superhero comics aren't adult, but they shouldn't be written for five year olds either."

Millar's first arc was The Tomorrow People (UXM 1-6), in which Magneto's Brotherhood declared war on the human race, causing the US government to hunt mutants with Sentinel robots. Professor X forms the X-Men, unaware that recruit Wolverine is a sleeper for Magneto and has orders to kill him. Return to Weapon X (UXM 7-12) featured the X-Men kidnapped into Weapon X, a concentration camp which turns mutants into mindless killers, and with Nick Fury trying to save them. World Tour (UXM 15-19) featured the X-Men try to catch Proteus, the psychotic mutant son of Charles Xavier and Dr. Moira MacTaggert, and having to use deadly force to stop him. Millar himself said: "The Tomorrow People was my Michael Bay movie, Return to Weapon X was my John McTiernan movie and World Tour is essentially X-Men meets Magnolia".

Common to the first 19 issues that the tone was harder-edged, featuring morally ambivalent X-Men, such as Wolverine seducing underage Marvel Girl, Cyclops defecting to the Brotherhood (The Tomorrow People), Professor X mind-wiping Iceman to make him forget his date, both Marvel Girl and Nightcrawler killing in self-defense and Storm trying to murder John Wraith (RTWX), and at last portraying Professor X as a neglectful father and husband (World Tour). Millar also planted a plot point which would be a point for discussion for years to come: whether Colossus was gay or not.

(Further good UXM references:

UXM and Brian K Vaughan

UXM and Brian Michael Bendis)

--Onomatopoeia 21:09, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Was bold and added it all. A little more sourced background info is never bad --Onomatopoeia 23:21, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I did a little copy-editing and cleaning up, but overall I like it much better than what the story arcs page has and it's far more informative. I applaud your efforts and await further discussion. --Newt ΨΦ 04:41, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. We still should at least add the artists somehow. --Onomatopoeia 09:35, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Sales

I'm curious about the remark regarding sales during Millar's run. certainly it sold a lot, but I find it curious that it says it was "a big commercial hit, consistently outselling its sister titles, New X-Men, X-Treme X-Men and even Uncanny X-Men". I'm pretty sure New X-Men outsold it, and the phrasing "even Uncanny X-Men" implies that it was a high seller at the time, when Joe Casey's run was noted for driving the title out of the top twenty for the first time in over a decade. The citation provided also isn't that clear, as it's just a link to a list of sales charts from the past five years or so. WesleyDodds 01:34, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

You are right, I just looked it up. NXM outsold anything X-Men related, and UXM (during Millar) was generally 2nd. --Onomatopoeia 09:21, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

World Tour

As a person who lives in Brittan some of these so called bloopers bug me. I have been in a few pubs with children as young as 9 or 10, they don't get alcohol for obvious reasons but they can get in and the bar tender will just keep a close eye on them. Also the one about the flag on the t-shirt/sweater being the wrong colour, it's called fashion , the do weird and wonderful things to the flag sometimes, I've even seen this in American where they modify the flag for fashion.

What really gets me is Mark Millar is Scottish (like my self) and he gets Land's End and John o' Groats mixed up but that’s not the point, the point is/was that the other 2 aren’t really bloopers as such. ≈ Seraph 31 13:12, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I personally don't see any need for the bloopers section of the article. It's trivia and thus by definition it's not notable. --Newt ΨΦ 13:20, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Trivia is notable, there is even a section devoited to Trivia for now. ≈ Seraph 31 13:32, 3 August 2006 (UTC)