Talk:Valencian Community

NPOV tag

This is currently the oldest tagged NPOV dispute. I have read through the article and it seems good to me. From the talk page I see their is a dispute as whether to describe the language as Valencian of Catalan. Also there is disscusion here about moving the page to a new title. Are these the only things under dispute and are either of them settled?--BirgitteSB 20:25, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Let's just say that there is no consensus to make those two changes, so, yes, those disputes are sort of solved.

There is still the old dispute of whether the infobox should have also the name is Spanish "Comunidad Valenciana". --Enric Naval (talk) 02:42, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

There was also a dispute about the flag proportions, it was dealt with at Talk:Flag_of_Valencia#removal_again_of_Calvo_and_Gravalos_reference by digging up some obscure law on default flag proportions, can be counted as solved. --Enric Naval (talk) 06:12, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Including it seems most the comprehensive option. It appears that both Catalonia and the Balearic Islands give multiple languages in their infoboxes so it is feasible to do this. What are the reasons against including it?--BirgitteSB 03:52, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

The reason was that the official name was "Valencian Community" in both Spanish and Valencian, which meant that there was no need to put a Spanish translation. However, the point appears to be very moot because the very own official website of the Valencian government uses "Comunidad Valenciana" in the pieces in Spanish and "Comunitat Valenciana" in the parts in Valencian. I'm just going to go and add it to the infobox :P People can complain if they want but they are going to have to give some very good reasons to oppose, given how the official government itself uses "Comunidad" in Spanish.... --Enric Naval (talk) 05:51, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

• Since no one has disputed that the above now resolves the bias issues, I am removing the maintenance tag from the article.--BirgitteSB 21:21, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Since User:Jaume87 has decided to remove the spanish name from the infobox without consensus, I readded the tag. --Maurice27 _{About Me, Talk, Vandalize}. 19:46, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

To avoid edit-warring a consensus was reached whereby the official name in Valencian and the unofficial translation in Spanish were to be displayed in the infobox. Given that this was an extremely controversial topic, I do agree that the removal of the Spanish name should be made by consensus.

I will just offer my two cents, and may the parties in dispute find a resolution. If other users are willing to reach a new consensus (no consensual version is permanent), it is my opinion that only the official name should be included, as the organic law of the autonomous community and all laws approved by the Parliament after the new Statute was put into effect, do not translate the name of the community if these are written in Spanish. This applies even to the webpage of the Generalitat [1], [2], [3], [4]. In fact, names of all government bodies in Valencia are not translated -in official documents- and the Generalitat is referred to as such (and not Generalidad), the President is "El President", the seat of government is "El Palau", and the ministries are "El Consell". Funny thing, however, the Valencian term "conselleria" is used for a single ministry, but the plural is hybrid: "consellerias" (where in Valencian it should be "conselleries") and note that the hybrid does not have an accent on the i, which would make "-lle-" the stressed syllable in Spanish, where in fact the stress should be on the -i- in both Valencian and Spanish. [5]

Following the same logic, it is my opinion that the term "País Valencià" should not be included in the infobox. It could be included in the opening paragraph or any other appropriate section, but not being the official name of the community, the infobox is not the place for it. -- dúnadan : let's talk 23:04, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

The Genaralitat's page still uses "comunidad valenciana" in many places[6]. The official tourism page translates the name in its title "Portal Oficial de Turismo de la Comunidad Valenciana - Turisme de la Comunitat Valenciana", etc.

"País Valencià" is a name used by nationalists to define the idea of an unified country. It is not the name of the community. The preamble to the estatute says that it's a modern conception, it doesn't say that it's the name of the community. It not mentioned in the first title, where the name of the community is discussed. --Enric Naval (talk) 03:39, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

My point, as always was, is that wikipedia guidelines do not state anywhere that ONLY official names should appear. I will guide you to Wikipedia:Manual of Style (infoboxes), where you will NOT find any backing for that position; meanwhile, if you look at the Geographical infoboxes section you may read that: "[...]Alternate or native names can appear[...]".

So basically, this means that erasing the spanish language DOES NOT follow wikipedia guidelines; geografical infoboxes are NOT ONLY for official names and "Alternate or native names can appear".

Even more, erasing the spanish language from the infobox would make these 2 articles the ONLY ones in wikipedia where the name in one of the official languages does not appear.

So, to sum up: -We agree that a consensus to keep the spanish translation was reached in the past. Jaume87 did not accept it and/or failed to re-open the case to discuss it. -Wikipedia guideline allows alternate names to appear. -Spanish language being co-official in this region is enough reason to consider it a valid "alternate name".

I ask myself... What bad can the name in spanish do??? Is anybody erasing the catalan translation of the name? Then, what is the problem to add the name in another co-official language of the territory? --Maurice27 _{About Me, Talk, Vandalize}. 17:55, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

I have no objection to Maurice27's proposal for using the unofficial Spanish exonym Comunidad Valenciana in the infobox, however we should keep the footnotes in order to make clear to readers the only official name is in Valencian. Jɑυмe (xarrades) 21:41, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Since Jaume readded the spanish translation of the name to the infobox, I removed the neutrality tag.--Maurice27 _{About Me, Talk, Vandalize}. 06:53, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

The map

Some users have tried to change the map without giving any explanation in this page. There is a completely analogous discussion (so far unresolved) at Talk:Catalonia. Anybody willing to reach a consensus about that is invited to join. In the meantime I'll restore the previous long standing map. --Carles Noguera (talk) 11:22, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

I fail to see the reason because of the Catalonia, Valencian Community and Balearic Islands articles need to use the same, different NUTS map while the rest of Spanish regions use the standard, country-centered version, the one which is used by all the country subdivisions articles. Again, I hope we reach a consensus - the sooner the better.

Also, I have to remind you there's no consensus for a map in many of the articles you use that as a reason for undoing changes without further discussion, so I urge you to follow Wikipedia's policies.

As a last note, I think we should discuss the entire matter in the Catalonia article's discussion, so we can avoid an unnecesary string of repeated, space-consuming edits. Icallbs (talk) 18:58, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Sure, we are already discussing the issue there, and I've made already some moves (and you too) to build a common ground consensus. Its outcomes will solve the problem in this article too. As for the policy thing, I'll be happy to read any elaboration of your insights in my talk page if you wish. By now, and just as a side note, let me tell that there is some difference between a long standing solution (amounting to some kind of implicit consensus) and an alternative proposal that immediately finds opposition (a situation that calls for a new discussion and consensus-building). Cheers, --Carles Noguera (talk) 21:42, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

I've restored the map used before because those put by Icallbs is lacking on European geographical context. I've read the discussion on Catalonia, and it's contending that articles about other Spanish autonomous communities are using the same scheme. But it is not a logical but arbitrary reason, as the whole scheme proposed by Illcalb (rightly, dumped directly from es-wiki) lacks on geographical information. It's not an improvement, really. Cheers. --Joanot Martorell ✉ 03:16, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

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Two confusing phrases

"…the low insulation rate and overall stable weather during the summer": what is an "insulation rate"?

"…the rate of activity reached 56.8% in 2002": what is a "rate of activity"?

Also, the economic statistics nearly all precede the current downturn; newer numbers (and perhaps some information tracing these numbers over time) would be good. - Jmabel | Talk 04:41, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

How many really speak Valencian. Use of weasel words suggests: very few

• regarding this section: Valencian_Community#Languages

The section bases all it's numbers on one study performed by a biased organisation (pro-Valencian), in which the respondants rated themselves and weren't tested.

I've lived in two "bilingual" cities, and I know that this sort of survey produces comical results. People ignore the questions and answer as if asked "Do you like your heritage?"

Does anyone have meaningful numbers? For example, how many children are in Valencian-speaking secondard schools compared to the number in Spanish-speaking schools? Gronky (talk) 22:28, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Valencian is just Catalan

There is no "Valencian" language, it's just a variety of Catalan, just like "Texan" is a variety of American English. See Talk:Valencian#Language versus dialect and Valencian language controversy for more. Mathglot (talk) 06:42, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Mathglot can you clarify why you've marked this as disputed? The article doesn't say that it's a separate language, it says "The Valencian people speak a variety of Catalan called Valencian." You say (and I agree with you) "it's just a variety of Catalan." Where is the dispute there? You are saying you agree with what the article says, but marking it as disputed. I don't follow you. Valenciano (talk) 08:52, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Hm, you're right; I had several Catalan and Valencian articles open simultaneously, and it looks like I stuck the label in the wrong one. Thanks for fixing it. (Now I suppose I'll have to go try and find the article that seemed to have a statement claiming Valencian as something co-equal and separate from Catalan, if I can.) Mathglot (talk) 09:19, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Valencian Country / Valencian Community

I have been working to expand this page for a few weeks now and I am appalled that the reference to "Valencian Country" has been deleted. There is a controversy about the name of the autonomous community, with the Catalan wikipedia using País Valencià (Valencian Country) and the Spanish one using Comunidad Valenciana (Valencian Community). I understand that the article is called "Valencian Community" because that is the official institutional name, but the alternative denomination is also officially recognized and has widespread usage, especially in the Valencian language. "Valencian Country" must, at least, be mentioned in the first sentence of the article, because many readers will search for "Valencian Country" and can cause confusion. And it is also important that edition in this respect is restricted once the community has achieved a consensus, otherwise the introduction will change every two weeks.

Just as a reminder, "Valencian Country" is the name used by the two psrties forming the coalition government at the moment in the Generalitat, it is the standard name in Catalan language, and it is used by academic institutions like the University of Valencia, the main trade unions and hundreds of civil associations.