Talk:White Night riots

Peer review

I wrote Harvey Milk's article, and I saw you're thinking of taking this to FA. If that is the goal, and I think it can be done, I suggest following the outline of the Stonewall riots article. The White Night riots should include a section to discuss the animosity between the gay community and the police, and the police's feelings of betrayal toward George Moscone. Dan White was a symbol of authority as a former policeman, even if he did not act at the behest of the police.

I also think you're going to have to add a section on what the riots did to change anything. Very soon the Castro was consumed with the AIDS crisis. How did what happened during the White Night riots influence the political approach to AIDS in San Francisco? What else did it change in the Castro, if anything?

I suggest getting Randy Shilts' Mayor of Castro Street. If you can get Mike Weiss' Doubly Play do that, too. I bought mine supercheap off of Amazon. Susan Stryker wrote an interesting look at the gay history of San Francisco called Gay by the Bay. I'll keep looking in, watching your progress. --Moni3 (talk) 01:01, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your commentary; Several of your suggestions I had not previously thought of. As far as the Shilts biography, i'm waiting for it on Inter-library loan and will incorporate it as soon as possible. As far as the other sources, i'll look into them. Of course, writing this presents additional difficulties since anything that happened before 1995 or so is likely to be only in books and Microfilm archives (which is where I found those two NYT articles, at my local library).

Anyway, thanks for the commentary, and I will incorporate whatever I have sources for into the article. I really think this one has a shot at GA and then eventually FA. Firestorm ^Talk 03:06, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

I have imported some background information on opposition to homosexuality and Stonewall from Stonewall riots, along with sources that I thought were relevant. If I can find better ones that I can actually examine in person, i'll replace the sources there with my own. I've also added the historic image of Stonewall rebellion and placed an {{underconstruction}} tag on the article so it isn't disturbed or maintenance tagged or anything. Once the library tells me that my books are in, I will write about Milk's rise, the assassination, and then once the Background section is done i'll start on the Aftermath section. Overall, its coming along nicely, I think. Firestorm ^Talk 04:42, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

References

To those editing this article to flesh it out more, I thank you for the work that is getting done. Keep in mind the following tips for adding references:

• It is the convention for references to be at the end of a sentence (unless the support only a specific clause of that sentence), after the fullstop/period.
• When you want to use the same ref multiple times, for the first mention you do the traditional ref, including <ref name="name">(ref here)</ref>., where name is a unique name for the ref, usually the author/page/title/etc. On subsequent uses of the ref, use the format <ref name="name" />. No </ref> or text inside it is needed. This avoids having duplicate references in the list at the end of a page.

Once again, thank you for contributing to this article. Firestorm ^Talk 18:06, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Erstwhile GA review

I can review this for GA or you can use this as good advice for whomever takes it on. This would be my advice or my requests were I to do its GA review, however.

• The article may have to be renamed per naming conventions to White Night riots.

 Done Firestorm ^Talk 04:10, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

• Rewrite the section for Stonewall riots. It is lifted from what I wrote for that article. I do not like others lifting text already presented in another article. I don't care if it's free to use under GFDL. When an editor takes on an article, s/he should take it on all the way and not cut corners. I similarly protested when Martin Luther King, Jr. was nominated for GA and the section in Birmingham campaign was lifted from the lead in the article for Birmingham campaign. Did you consult the sources for this section? If not, do not present the article as if you had.

 Done I also checked the NYT article, and made it rely less on sources that I haven't personally verified. Firestorm ^Talk 03:41, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

• I predict File:Stonewall riots.jpg will have to be removed. The fair use rationale is not strong enough, and I do not think one is possible.. I had to fight to keep the image in the Stonewall article.

 Done Firestorm ^Talk 02:42, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

• The fair use rationale for File:Milk and white.jpg is not strong enough, and again, I am not sure one is possible. It's not a good picture.

 Not done -I think the non-free use rationale is strong enough for now, though if I can find a suitable replacement I will remove it. Its tenuous, but I think its enough for now. See the below section for a relevant question. Firestorm ^Talk 04:10, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

 Done Firestorm ^Talk 02:56, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

• Blockquotes should be used only when the quote is 4 lines or more.

 Done Firestorm ^Talk 02:53, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

• Although the section on the conflict with the SF Police Department is a good section, I think there is more to the aftermath and legacy that is not being explored. I believe I previously suggested checking out information on the political impact AIDS had in the wake of Milk's assassination. Cleve Jones staged a candlelight vigil for AIDS in 1981 or 1982, I think, based on the vigil held after Milk's assassination. Check out And the Band Played On by Shilts. See if you can get two very long articles by Frances FitzGerald called "A Reporter At Large: The Castro" Parts I and II in The New Yorker. They're on the internet, but you may have to pay for them. They're worth it, though.

 Doing... - Waiting on ILL. Firestorm ^Talk 04:10, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

 DoneFirestorm ^Talk 05:17, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

• Go through and do a punctuation check to make sure citations appear after punctuation.

 Done Firestorm ^Talk 02:42, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

• Charles Gain was immensely unpopular with police, as was George Moscone. These issues are not covered in the article.

 DoneDon't know how I didn't see this on here before. Firestorm ^Talk 00:24, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

• My jaw just dropped. I bought Mike Weiss' Double Play on Amazon last August for $3.69. The same book, used, is worth $54 now. See if your library can get it through InterLibrary Loan.

 Doing... - Waiting on ILL. Firestorm ^Talk 04:10, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

 Not doneMy library fails at finding books. If I get it in the future then fine, if not then it still meets GA criteria without it. Firestorm ^Talk 19:00, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Don't be overwhelmed. I'm not slamming the article. I was surprised to see it nominated so soon. I don't think it's ready yet, but I think it can get there. --Moni3 (talk) 19:17, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Discussion about above

Thank you for expressing all your concerns. I will go through each of them, and improve the article accordingly. Regarding the impact AIDS had, I couldn't find any source that suggested that there was one. Since you've suggested these sources, I can try and see if I can find them. Though, I think that's more a concern for FA than GA, because the article is already broad in its coverage, with major aspects covered. Regarding the text imported from the Stonewall article, I'll try and rewrite it.

About the images, what would you suggest? I'm not going to fight for the Stonewall image, and I think that one was tenuous anyway. The White/Milk photo, I think, is relevant to this article and, unless I can find a free-use replacement, I'll have to try strengthening its rationale. Do you know where I could find a free replacement for it, or any other free or valid fair use images? The more, the better. Firestorm ^Talk 19:37, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

I have a book at home called Out in the Castro edited by Winston Leyland that also has some good info about the riots and what happened in the Castro following Milk's assassination. It was particularly hard hit by AIDS and the political activists who got their start with Milk picked up where he died to address the lack of response to AIDS. The book has images of the White Night riots. Since they may be the only images taken of that night in the Castro, you will have much stronger fair use rationales for those images. Do an image search on Google and Flickr, though. You might find someone's personal pictures they took and never published. Ask them if you can use them.

That Milk/White photo shows only that Milk and White stood next to each other on one day at one time. It doesn't really show anything else. If you're going to use a non-free image, it has to convey ideas or concepts that words cannot. The only thing the Milk/White image conveys is that White and Milk knew each other, and words express that fairly well.

I don't know what kind of access you have to more sources. When I wrote what I hoped to be my first GA, I used the internet and got all frustrated because I couldn't find enough stuff. Each step I took to acquire another source was one more step I looked back and thought, "Well, that was easy." I surprised myself with how far I went to get good sources. Go farther and get what you can. If you are completely flummoxed, I will add what I can from sources I have. --Moni3 (talk) 19:58, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

I've just sent off an email to Daniel Nicoletta requesting permission to use another of his images; he's already licensed several for us, so it shouldn't be too much of a problem. Thanks for the help, and please stick around so we can get this to GA. Firestorm ^Talk 20:54, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

It was I who asked permission for Nicoletta's images for use in Milk's article. He was wary to license it, but I promised to keep it at 300 pixels. He is a professional and he basically donated those images to Wikipedia. I also asked Rink Foto, who shot some amazing images and he turned me down. The San Fran Public Library also did not give full permissions to use their images, which are images Milk shot. Try also the San Francisco Gay Lesbian Bisexual Transgender Historical Society. They may not get back to you right away, but they have images of the Castro in the 1970s. If you're polite and persistent, you will get good responses. Be prepared to be turned down, though. --Moni3 (talk) 20:58, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) What if I put in File:Harvey Milk at 1978 Gay Freedom Day.jpg and File:GeorgeMoscone.jpg? They're GFDL and public domain, respectively. Do you think those would provide a suitable replacement for the Milk-White image that's there? Firestorm ^Talk 04:38, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

I got permission from Mr. Nicoletta for another of his photos, so its going through OTRS now. Once I get it confirmed, i'll add it to the article. Firestorm ^Talk 22:43, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:White Night riots/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

I really enjoyed reading this one. It's well written, and the different sections are knitted together so that the chronology flows logically. You don't always get that, especially without hard work. It is referenced well enough for my liking—not a {{fact}} tag in sight, nor anyplace where I would wish to add one. There are no issues with image use, stability or neutrality. I took Moni3's informal review into account when reading the article, and she does a great job critiquing the coverage. I found it to be broad and detailed in almost every area, though I would love to see improvement in the areas she mentioned, especially the aftermath and legacy sections. I find these parts satisfactory, however, and not a reason in themselves to hold the article. So congrats on your first GA, Firestorm. Good luck at FAC ;) — Jake Wartenberg 19:40, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Comments

Whoops, just missed the peer review. Oh well. Overall, it's a very interesting article and I think it's pretty solid. Some suggestions, opinions, and thoughts:

• The infobox appears to be broken (i see the casulties divider with no content under it)

 Done This seems to be caused by edits to the template itself. Firestorm ^Talk 20:04, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

• First paragraph of Lead isn't really a paragraph at only two sentences.

 Done Firestorm ^Talk 20:04, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

• The second paragraph goes from demonstrations to riots in a sentence. Might want some flow on how it turned violent.

 Done Firestorm ^Talk 20:04, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

• The third paragraph has some issues, i feel. The whole "later that night" makes it sound like these occurred after the riots, which seems to be the case, reading the relevant section, but just feels like a bit of a jump. The "full riot gear" detail of gays being beaten stands out and feels a tad conspicuous. "Two dozen arrests..." doesn't have to do with the retaliatory strike, so it should be reworked, and there's another jump from the police raids to the aftermath. My suggestion is to streamline and move the police raid info to the second paragraph and lead off the third with the property damage and arrests, and then the response.

 Done Firestorm ^Talk 20:04, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

• Background: it's excellent info, I just feel it could be trimmed a bit. In particular, parts of "Homosexual activism in San Francisco" talking about drag queens is most tangental to the main thrust. Way I see it, you only really need to establish 1) San Francisco background, 2) gay bars, animosity between police and gays, and 3) white and his murder.

 Done Firestorm ^Talk 00:31, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

• The twinkie defense I think has been oversimplified: the text is that "stating that too much refined sugar (the type of sugar found in “junk food”) can cause depression and that White may have acted irrationally as a subsequent result of his eating copious amounts of foods containing refined sugars." However this doesn't really square with Twinkie defense and this ref [1] where it says that the sugar ingestion was simply a symptom, not a cause.

 Done Firestorm ^Talk 00:31, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

• "Police Department leadership, which was used to seeing docile homosexuals walking quietly into paddy wagons during bar raids, were shocked by the idea of an angry gay crowd screaming for blood." This just sounds rather biased in tone to me, and a tad hyperbolic.

 Done Firestorm ^Talk 00:31, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

• "When the crowd from the Castro merged with another crowd from the Polk neighborhood, another predominantly gay district of San Francisco, the battle against San Francisco police began." When did this turn into a battle against the SFPD? Were the police specifically targeted, or was violence against them just a result of general rioting? This should be made clear.

 Done Removed that sentence, because was mostly redundant anyway Firestorm ^Talk 00:31, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

• "However, rather than reinforcing the friends of Harvey Milk who were monitoring the riots, police proceeded to beat them with night sticks.[30]" Another thing which lacks sufficient explanation. Did the police know they were holding back the crowds, or did they think they were also rioters? Or did they just assume they were gay and beat them for that?

 Done Firestorm ^Talk 00:31, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

• "Fifteen people sued the police department after the White Night Riots, but most of these suits were settled or dropped" what about the other suits?

 Done Removed the xsection, since I can't find any references stating what happened to them, or even who they were.Firestorm ^Talk 00:31, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

• There's multiple places where there are one or two sentence quasi-paragraphs that need to be fleshed out or folded together.

--Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 15:17, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

 Done Firestorm ^Talk 00:43, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Harvey Milk "first openly gay official elected" designation

Keeping in mind the due respect he deserves, Harvey Milk was not the first openly gay person (male or female) elected in the United States when he was elected in 1977. That distinction falls upon Kathy Kozachenko of Ann Arbor, Michigan who was elected to city council while publicly out as a lesbian in April 1974. In November 1974, Elaine Noble was elected Massachusetts state representative while publicly out as a lesbian. Additionally, Allan Spear of Minnesota- having come out while in office in December 1974- was re-elected in 1976 and was the first openly gay man to do so. Also, Jim Yeadon became the fourth openly gay official to be elected when he retained his seat on the Madison, Wisconsin city council in April 1977.

Prior to Kozachenko, Noble, and Spear getting elected, Nancy Wechsler and Jerry DeGrieck were the first public officials to come out as gay while serving on the Ann Arbor city council in 1973 but were not publicly out of the closet when elected.

Some may want to decide on a brief yet important designation for Harvey Milk's place in history. In some articles, Harvey Milk is given the distinction as the "first openly gay non-incumbent elected in the United States." However, that seems wordy to some. Other articles have cited him as the "first openly gay man elected to high political office." This is subject to debate, on whether one deems a state senator (i.e. Spear) as a high office or not. Nevertheless, this would still be more suitable than saying that Milk was the "first openly gay elected official," despite the significant impact of his time in office. Other articles decide to state how he was the first openly gay person elected in California.

References: Kathy Kozachenko | Elaine Noble | Allan Spear

Elaine Noble designation Allan Spear listing of 1976 re-election Wechsler and DeGrieck- Ann Arbor city council members Jim Yeadon Victory Fund explanation of firsts