Talk:November 2015 Paris attacks

International response subsection

See also: § Reactions, and § Reactions part 2

Should we include a section for international responses from world governments, first excerpt pasted below, more to follow:

Immediately following the attacks, worldwide governments issued statements in response. United States President Barack Obama spoke via live stream from the White House at 5:45 PM ET, condemning the attacks and offering American aid, calling the event an "attack on all of humanity". British Prime Minister David Cameron pledged similar support for France through a statement made on Twitter.

• This was discussed above - see the Response section earlier in the talk page. SkittishSloth (talk) 00:35, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose. The international community will obviously express sympathy, offer aid, etc., etc. I argue that this is not notable. It was suggested above that perhaps a running list be kept on this talk page, for addition at some point in the future. Ignatzmice•talk 00:36, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

• Comment Not all express sympathy. Swedish vice Prime Minister Åsa Romson has tweeted that her worry is that it will be more difficult for her to attend a conference in Paris next month. Jeppiz (talk) 00:38, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

• Comment Perhaps keep a running list here, add details to article if relevant? Responses may vary.

• I have new one: Secretary-General of the United Nations Ban Ki-moon and the United Nations Security Council have condemned these terrorist attacks in and around Paris and demanded the immediate release of the numerous individuals reportedly being held hostage in the Bataclan theatre.

• Bilingual response from Justin Trudeau, Canadian Prime Minister: "I am shocked and saddened that so many people have been killed and injured in violent attacks in #Paris. Canada stands with France. Je suis bouleversé et attristé par le lourd bilan des victimes des violentes attaques de #Paris. Le Canada est solidaire de la France."

https://twitter.com/JustinTrudeau?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thomas W. Wilson (talk • contribs) 00:41, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

• Support This is one of the worst terrorist attacks in the West since 9/11, and no section for responses? Really?--Stefvh96 (talk) 01:05, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Are you agree this quote?--Shwangtianyuan (talk) 00:39, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Substantial reactions, as in providing monetary assistance, logistical support, etc. is worth including. Messages of condolences and solidarity are routine for tragedies such as this and not encyclopedic. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 00:43, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

This is being discussed above. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 00:46, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

• Support - standard and should likely be its own article —Мандичка^YO 😜 01:04, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
• Support - standard and should likely be its own article.--Oneiros (talk) 01:20, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
• Support - standard BUT should not be its own article yet. epic genius (talk) 01:23, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
• Absolutely not. These are just talking heads and generic statements of sympathy/solidarity/support. They add nothing to the reader's understanding; they're just filler, used by rolling news channels so that newsreaders don't keep repeating themselves. If anyone manages to sum it up in a nice, concise quote, that will become clear in the coming days; there's no emergency here. Obama's quote might gain that sort of traction, but most of the rest are the same obligatory condolences that politicians trot out every time there's an incident like this. No doubt they're sincere, but they add nothing. Please ask yourself, how is a readers' understanding developed by "talking head number one of country number two offered his condolences, while talking head number three of country number four offered her deepest sympathies". HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:28, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

References

• Support - these are on all of the terrorism articles. Maybe keep the section small and have a link to the whole split article. 97.73.126.72 (talk) 01:55, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
• Support - but only for reactions that contain substantial content, rather than condolences and moral support. Similar to when the head of NATO said an attack on one was an attack on all of the alliance after 9/11.--Mongreilf (talk) 02:08, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
• Support for reactions that contain substantial content. I'd also support having a paragraph that simply lists the states that gave condolences without going into too much detail. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 04:01, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

If they're added, it should be as paragraphs, preferably with NATO powers bundled together.

What people really don't like with these sections is the list of bullet points with flags with single sentences. -- Callinus (talk) 04:00, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

• No, no responses, no flags, no bullet points. Report on actions, on policy, on border closings--those are the only reactions of encyclopedic value. Drmies (talk) 04:05, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose - The other section discussing this seems to have the opposite opinion → Here Snd0 (talk) 04:30, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
• Sorta... - If a major international figure says something meaningful other than "I condole you" or "we deplore this", if they announce actions they are taking, then yeah, I think it belongs in the article, but not in a special section. That just invites list-making, article-bloating, faces in the spotlight trivia. The Obama and Cameron examples, no. Dcs002 (talk) 04:39, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

I guess this list making is my only issue. If you simply google "condolence paris" you'll find that the leaders of China, Malaysia, Pakistan, Kuwait, Ireland, Israel, Poland, Cambodia, New Zealand, and others have said the same thing... Yet currently we're only listing leaders from certain countries. Why the Philippines but not Cambodia? ... Sorry if this is pedantic. Snd0 (talk) 06:18, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

• Support absolutely pertinent in adjudging to students of IR how relations stand and who (and who did NOT respond). Armchair editors of WP may see otherwise, but encyclopedias are for students/education. To add, considering it is a political act, international reactions ARE necessary to adjudge both the relations and the consequences. 94.187.2.221 (talk) 09:21, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
  • If a lack of response seems important perhaps that should be pointed out explicitly, but that would be malpractice for students to think that because something is missing that it important to IR.
• Oppose per HJ Miller's comment. It serves no purpose or aid to the reader to just list verbatim what leaders say. Include major examples with actual actions taken, but bullet pointed statements are repetitive and unconstructive. Reywas92^Talk 09:44, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
• Support - why not? - ^theWOLFchild 10:45, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
• Support - Seen it elsewhere. Hanyou23 (talk) 17:38, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose - We had just yesterday reached a consensus to not include these... We also have this: International reactions to the November 2015 Paris attacks. Hollande's inclusion alone makes sense at all. Obama and other world leaders are just doing their duty, and their condolences are good for memorials and calming the shocked citizens, but do not belong to an encyclopedia. WP:NOTMEMORIAL In addition, it is sad that these lists are biased as nobody cares about some President of Togo's condolences while Obama from USA is seen as someone who can speak authoritatively about terrorism. Ceosad (talk) 23:40, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose - We already reached consensus on this yesterday, there is no need to reopen the discussion. These sections are unencylopedic and add no value to the article. In five years, people reading the article aren't going to care about the long list of condolences. Unless something particularly notable happens (i.e. someone actually does something beyond offering an apology), there's little reason to make note of it here. Titanium Dragon (talk) 06:08, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose - Its a mandatory thing for anyone to say "We're sympathizing with France" or whichever nation was struck. This doesnt belong on a Wikipedia page unless this has directly resulted in a campaign for retaliation of sorts. Besides, the only valued opinions always seem to be the top 5 NATO countries, so who cares really. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.109.63.17 (talk) 06:40, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Motives are over-simplified

Paris was attacked by a sophisticated terrorist group that is clearly very strategic in its actions. Claiming that this attack was merely done out of hatred for the culture of Paris or the French king's behaviour in the Middle East is clearly just a childish excuse that is clearly wrong. Yeah, ISIS may say they're doing it for that reason but since when did was any powerful adversarial force so simplistic in its strategy? Are we to say that German Unification under Bismark was done in the name of higher ideals? Are we to say that Russian theft of much of Ukraine was actually done to protect Russian Ukrainians? Are we seriously to believe that Julius Caesar just wanted to make Rome better? Face it, these are terrorists and they do terrorist attacks in order to get a reaction that benefits their overall objectives. If they wanted to kill people over degeneracy, then they wouldn't have lasted very long as a terrorist group before an Otto Von Bismark came along and used actual strategy. 63.152.96.23 (talk) 01:13, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

The French... king?!

Anyway, this is all well and good, but do you have reliable sources to improve the "motives" coverage, or is this just your own original research? If the latter, it won't be used. LjL (talk) 01:15, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

agree ; the same as 911 they did itbecouse they hate our freedom. Perhaps a word 'blowback' if be any chance it is back and not blow-forward.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.195.65.120 (talk • contribs) 01:20, 15 November 2015‎

All are over-simplifications but unless you have a reliable source talking about it you can't change it in the article until they do. --Cookie Nguyen (talk) 10:24, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

some of mostefai's family members have been arrested

can someone put this ?

http://news.sky.com/story/1587901/paris-attacks-rifles-found-in-abandoned-car

--Stefvh96 (talk) 11:27, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Broken page with VisualEditor

(Also posted at Wikipedia:VisualEditor/Feedback, posting here for information.) This article is currently broken when opened in the Wikipedia:VisualEditor. To reproduce, try opening this revision of this article with the VisualEditor. The page looks fine until the "Attacks" subsection, at which point raw wikitext becomes visible, starting with the text

{{quote box↵|title=Timeline of attacks↵|align=left↵|width=25%↵|quote=↵13 November

and then most of the rest of the page following that is lost. It's been some time since I've seen the VE break on a high-profile page like this. Browser: Firefox 42 on Debian Linux. -- The Anome (talk) 11:11, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Rifles used in the attack?

Looking at the article now, someone has typed in that the rifles used by the terrorists were "AK-47s." Somehow I doubt these guys got their hands on 50s era Soviet rifles. They likely used AKM type rifles in this attack. Does anyone have any pics of the weapons used by the terrorists so that we can confirm what they are? — Preceding unsigned comment added by FR4NCH3K (talk • contribs) 11:46, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

AK-47 rifles, despite being largely supplanted by smaller caliber AKs, are still not uncommon as there are many in circulation and knock-offs from other manufacturers. However, you're right that the mainstream media is typically lazy and uninformed about specific firearms, so this does merit some more research. -- Fuzheado | Talk 12:26, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Going by my experience, and also by our own AK-47, I'd say the term now is used generically for all variants of the rifle. It's the Kleenex of automatic weapons. Anyways, we should probably follow sources, not interpret images. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 12:27, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

We shouldn't use AK-47 then, we should use "a Kalashnikov-style rifle" or "a Kalashnikov." Though, here's an article in the Daily Beast that says that since Russia has just upgraded their AKs, there is a glut of the older model. But I'm not sure if that's a glut of AK-47s or AK-74s. -- Fuzheado | Talk 12:30, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

“One of the reasons we see a lot of Kalashnikovs and AK-47s on the black market is because Russia has just upgraded the Kalashnikov,” Kathie Lynn Austin, an expert on arms trafficking with the Conflict Awareness Project, told Al Jazeera, “and that has created massive stockpiles of the older models.”[1]

Numerous sources mention 7.62mm cartidges found on site, ruling out AK-74s. Rama (talk) 13:56, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, that would do it for me then, in terms of keeping AK-47s. I only found one source, though. AP: [2] -- Fuzheado | Talk 14:01, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Stade de France bombings timeline

The times given for the first two of the Stade de France bombings in the "Timeline of Events" box are different from the given source:

• page: 21:16 (first explosion), 21:20 (second explosion)
• Reuters: 21:20 (first explosion), 21:30 (second explosion)

This needs review. --Vachovec1 (talk) 14:51, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

HI. That's right, its neither in line with the French not the German interwiki chronology.

• (French and german) À 21 h 20, une première explosion retentit rue Jules-Rimet près de la porte D du Stade de France. À 21 h 30, toujours rue Jules-Rimet, porte H, un autre kamikaze porteur d'un dispositif similaire se fait sauter. Une troisième et dernière explosion aux abords du Stade de France, avec le même mode opératoire, a lieu à 21 h 53, rue de la Cokerie, devant un établissement de restauration rapide, McDonald's. À nouveau le corps d’un kamikaze est retrouvé25. Quatre personnes sont mortes, dont trois terroristes26.
• 21:16 – First suicide bombing near the Stade de France.[43] 21:20 – Second suicide bombing at the Stade de France.[43] 21:53 – Third suicide bombing at the Stade de France.[43]

Cordialement Serten Talk 15:26, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Updates

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11995246/Paris-shooting-What-we-know-so-far.html 92.16.213.2 (talk) 14:56, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

1. Forensic police search for evidences outside the La Belle Equipe cafe, rue de Charonne. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11995246/Paris-shooting-What-we-know-so-far.html
2. From there, the militants drove around a mile south-east – apparently past the area of the Bataclan concert venue – to then launch another attack, this time on La Belle Equipe bar in Rue de Charonne. #At least 19 people died after the terrace was sprayed with bullets at around 9.35pm. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11995246/Paris-shooting-What-we-know-so-far.htmlhttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11995246/Paris-shooting-What-we-know-so-far.html
3. The unit drove about 500 yards to the Casa Nostra pizzeria in Rue de la Fontaine au Roi. A young woman told Le Monde she spotted a “very young” man – 18 to 20 years old – in the front seat of the car. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11995246/Paris-shooting-What-we-know-so-far.html
4. At around 9.50pm, an hour after the band took to the stage, black-clad gunmen wielding AK-47s and wearing suicide vests stormed into the hall and fired calmly and methodically at hundreds of screaming concert-goers. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11995246/Paris-shooting-What-we-know-so-far.html
5. At around 9.50pm a third blast took place near the Stade de France, this time by a McDonald’s restaurant on the fringes of the stadium. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11995246/Paris-shooting-What-we-know-so-far.html
6. At least 89 people were killed in the concert hall. Three assailants were also killed after police stormed in - two by activating their suicide vests and a third shot dead. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11995246/Paris-shooting-What-we-know-so-far.html
7. A little further east at least 19 people died when the terrace of the La Belle Equipe in Rue de Charonne was sprayed with gunfire, while 15 people were killed at Le Carillon bar-cafe in Rues Bichat. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11995246/Paris-shooting-What-we-know-so-far.html
8. Five people at the Casa Nostra pizzeria and a nearby bar were killed by attackers wielding rifles. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11995246/Paris-shooting-What-we-know-so-far.html

92.16.213.2 (talk) 15:13, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

At least 129 people were killed

Actually it's 136, according to the numbers in the article itself: 129 victims and 7 perpetrators.-79.219.181.249 (talk) 15:27, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Per other articles we don't count the perpetrators among the victims. We should always show apart. Legacypac (talk) 17:10, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Nor am I'm asking that we do. I said that they very clearly should be counted among "people" that were "killed". Just use another term for people, one that would exclude the killers.-79.219.181.249 (talk) 17:58, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Innocent people? Innocent: "a person involved by chance in a situation, especially a victim of crime or war." Firebrace (talk) 20:44, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

That's awkward. Why not just "victim" then, since the very definition you gave would give "innocent people" as a superset of "victims", whereas everyone except the perpetrators are "victims" here? LjL (talk) 20:49, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

"Suicide victims" are a thing. InedibleHulk (talk) 06:36, November 16, 2015 (UTC)

The word for that is "civilian". epic genius (talk) 20:51, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

The perpetrators were also civilians (a person not in the armed services or the police force). Firebrace (talk) 20:52, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Except for the one shot, the perpetrators were not killed by anyone but themselves here. They committed suicide. Legacypac (talk) 05:13, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Deaths: 129 civilians

The sidebar calls the victims "civilians". Chances are that some are military or police, so that should be changed to something neutral.-79.219.181.249 (talk) 15:28, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. Changed to "victims". LjL (talk) 15:30, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Disagree. They are not victims but French and intl martyrs or killed. Agree that the use of the term civilians birders on slight propaganda.

More neutral is to call them 129 dead or 129 deceased. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AIS59000750002015 (talk • contribs) 15:56, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

"Victims" is pretty neutral, "martyrs" would obviously not be. They are already being called "dead" or "deceased", the issue here is to distinguish them from the perpetrators, who are also dead, in the infobox. LjL (talk) 15:58, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

More neutral and wrong. They are 136 dead, and 136 deceased, not 129.-79.219.181.249 (talk) 16:03, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

It says so in the infobox (129 +7). This section is about the infobox ("sidebar"). I don't care about elsewhere. Raise it elsewhere. LjL (talk) 16:05, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

It says 129 + 7, but if it would say "129 dead" as AIS59000750002015 suggested, it would be wrong.

Is this the talk page of the sidebar only? I don't quite understand where you send me and why.-79.219.181.249 (talk) 16:19, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

I agree. Civilians sounds a bit too general and broad, "victims" may also be a bit problematic if you include the attackers in that, for instance. Perhaps a better term would be "deaths", or to, rather than use an abbreviation, word it slightly longer such as "136 individuals were killed during the attack" or something like that. 2A02:8388:1600:A880:BE5F:F4FF:FECD:7CB2 (talk) 20:04, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm saying you can make another section about the issue with the article body, but this particular section starts with "The sidebar", so let's not confuse issues. The article body says "at least", by the way. LjL (talk) 20:38, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

I did make another section, and I wasn't mentioning it here.-62.155.206.143 (talk) 21:01, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Hashtags

Do we need a whole section about a "#portesouvertes" hashtag, when this is already mentioned in the proper "Social media reactions" section on the linked article (except the hashtag is "#porteouverte" there, seems sources cannot agree)? LjL (talk) 15:48, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

That Local response section is now expanding and dangerously getting close in concept to the separate, linked Popular reactions section. There is now even a Mass that is "due to" being celebrated, which makes me want to link WP:FUTURE. LjL (talk) 16:25, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

@EP111: the edit you reverted clearly indicated in the summary that I had started a discussion about the issue here. Why did you not take part and instead just reverted? Now see my rationale for keeping it please. LjL (talk) 16:47, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Your edit did no such thing. Regards, EP111 (talk) 17:11, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

@EP111: uhm, what do you think that "see talk" in that edit summary, with "talk" being a link to the relevant talk page section here, meant, then? LjL (talk) 18:14, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

As to your reason for reverting, please see this talk page for wide support towards moving the article from "International reactions ..." to just "Reactions ...", even though the move hasn't taken place yet. LjL (talk) 16:55, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

"First United States death is listed under Mexico"

This comment is found within the casualties table, even though the article body talks about a United States death. Is there a valid reason why the victim should be listed under Mexico and not (additionally) under United States, since the comment says they had dual citizenship? Why does the Mexican citizenship take precedence, and why can't we list a victim in two places? (This shows all the problems with a naive interpretation of WP:CALC, by the way.) LjL (talk) 16:22, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

This now appears to have been changed (the United States are now listed with 1 victim). LjL (talk) 18:47, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Appears there was only one US citizen who was killed - a Californian college student who had dual Mexican nationality. I can't find any references to a second American death. Cantab12 (talk) 15:43, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

That's what the article says, isn't it? LjL (talk) 15:45, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Not until I edited it. It said 2. Cantab12 (talk) 15:57, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Oh, okay. Anyway my point with this section was merely that if someone has US citizenship, they should be listed under US (as well as any other country they have citizenship of). LjL (talk) 16:08, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Change all mentions of Militants to Terrorists

I propose to change all mentions of Militants to Terrorists many of the sourced news article call them terrorists so why don't we use this term on Wikipedia? Do you agree? --Ntb613 (talk) 16:39, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

• Support per WP:EUPHEMISM: it's quite clear what we're dealing with, and it's not merely "militants". Of course, this should apply to mentions of people committing actual acts of terrorism, not (for instance) Islamist militants in general. LjL (talk) 17:22, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
• Support. There is no civil war in France, this is terrorism. Legacypac (talk) 17:05, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
• Caution - I'm not sure what this accomplishes, since there is only one mention of "militant" in the entire article that is not in quotes. Also, look at other similar articles and they do not go as far as to use the term "terrorist" within Wikipedia's own prose. Rather, they use assailant mostly and perhaps militants. -- Fuzheado | Talk 17:12, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Example articles include the following. Just keep the balance in mind:
    • 7 July 2005 London bombings - "terrorist" used as an adjective except in one case, addressing generic "terrorists"
    • January_2015_Île-de-France_attacks - "assailants" and "perpetrators" mostly. "Terrorists" used twice.
    • Charlie_Hebdo_shooting - "assailants" and "perpetrators" used in standard features like infoboxes and TOC, "terrorists" used as well.
• Oppose Terrorist is a contentious (and vague) term that can be more neutrally replaced by attacker, assailant, or perpetrators. -- Veggies (talk) 17:53, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
• Support - I associate the word militant with political activism and violent revolutionaries. These people are neither of those things. Firebrace (talk) 17:56, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose It's a contentious WP:LABEL that helps them inflict their terror, so why use it at all? – Muboshgu (talk) 19:08, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Which label, "ISIL/ISIS" or "terrorists"? I'm guessing "terrorists" - Well, it's only "contentious" on Wikipedia talk pages, really. Reliable sources don't have a problem routinely calling this terrorism, and the perpetrators terrorists. LjL (talk) 19:33, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I meant "terrorists" as contentious. ISIL/ISIS is the WP:COMMONNAME unless Hollande's attempt to use Daesh sticks. The reliable sources can sensationalize a bit and I'd rather not follow them. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:32, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

• Support - Is pretty standard for articles like this. See September 11 attacks. Islamic State is classified as a terrorist group by most countries, and this was undoubtedly a terrorist attack, so there's little reason not to call them terrorists in the text. Note that in any quotes, we should use the word that whoever we're quoting used. Titanium Dragon (talk) 06:13, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

---

And on the subject of language, any reference anywhere to the "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant" should be preceded by "so-called" or "self-styled." This entity's name is technically incorrect (it is not a "state") and self-delusional. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.184.72.143 (talk) 17:33, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose That's an absurd misdirection for the reader. The group calls itself that. It's silly to pretend that it doesn't. -- Veggies (talk) 17:53, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

• • Agree. The terrorists call themselves "Islamic State" just as much as Bruce Jenner calls himself Caitlyn Jenner. Wikipedia, in all cases but one, goes by what people call themselves. XavierItzm (talk) 18:04, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

If I call myself the King of Europe does that make it true? Firebrace (talk) 18:00, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

You are (to the best of my knowledge) not notable, so it doesn't matter what you call yourself. LjL (talk) 18:12, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

OK, but say Shia LaBeouf, who is notable, starts calling himself the King of California, is that to be taken literally? Firebrace (talk) 18:18, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Not necessarily, because if the rest of us still just call him Shia LaBeouf, that's his WP:COMMONNAME, whether or not he likes it. But I'm afraid the ISIL's common name is ISIL or ISIS, whether or not their being a state is "technically accurate" (we don't generally go by "technically accurate" for names). LjL (talk) 18:21, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Shia LaBouef is not made of beef either, but that's what his name implies. Names are quite literally nominal, not essential. 107.179.137.47 (talk) 18:23, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

If you are notable enough to have an article and change your name to King O. Europe—yes, that will be your title. It's stupid to demand that common names make literal sense. -- Veggies (talk) 18:50, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: Unfortunately, it can be argued that the Islamic State does meet all the basic requirements for being classified as a self-governing state, apart from that of (official) diplomatic recognition. Ceannlann gorm (talk) 19:26, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose It is true that a number of sources describe the assailants as terrorists; however, many also describe them using the word "gunmen", "attackers" and (the word I used) "assailants". The question is, which word best reflects the purpose of Wikipedia? Which is the most neutral? "Terrorist" certainly is not. It is value laden and inherently political. The word we use ought to be strictly descriptive. SomePseudonym (talk) 20:31, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
  • When it comes to ISIL, it checks almost entire sourced row at List of designated terrorist groups. As long the majority of states designates ISIL as a "terrorist" and as long as it conducts the classical terrorist activity, then it's not a problem to call it as such. We call cat a cat and not a dog, although it can't talk. Otherwise what's the purpose of the word "terrorism"? Brandmeister^talk 20:37, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
• Support This is an easy call per the reasons already stated.VictoriaGrayson^Talk 20:35, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
• Support, just weakly. This is contentious. "Terrorist" is widely stated but could be considered POV. "Militant" is more neutral but does not reflect popular opinion. I suggest "assailant" or "perpetrator." epic genius (talk) 21:21, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:NEUTRAL as a term which defines motive when more accurate descriptions of the behavior are available (and more precisely describe the actions "shooter" "attacker"). Bod (talk) 22:20, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Rue de Charonne - Restaurant name

The name of the restaurant on Rue de Charonne is "la Belle Epoque"....not "La Belle Equipe"

No, it's not, see [3] [4] [5] (all mentioning it's in Rue de Charonne), as well, of course, as very many sources about the attacks. Liberation here is wrong, as Google can hint (first hit Liberation, later hits are "La Belle Equipe"). LjL (talk) 16:59, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

References

Presumably "La Belle Équipe" ("The Beautiful Team") is a deliberate pun on the part of the owners. -- The Anome (talk) 18:41, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Names and personal details of victims, again

@XavierItzm: is insisting on adding the full name and personal/educational details about a victim from the US. We had previous agreement that should be avoided. The rationale for the edit seems to be that WP:BLP doesn't apply since the person is deceased; however, if you have a look at what WP:BLP actually says, it mentions "Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased)". In any case, WP:BLP is not even the main concern here (see previous discussion). Let's discuss it further, but no single-handed consensus overthrowing, please. LjL (talk) 17:56, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Absurd. Person is deceased, gone, dead. Name, occupation, photo of the parents on the Washington Post. Any objections to publishing name are utterly capricious.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/among-the-victims-in-paris-a-american-exchange-student/2015/11/14/6dc2d9fa-8afc-11e5-be39-0034bb576eee_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-high_tick-tock-430pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory XavierItzm (talk) 17:59, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Are you going to post all the 129 names? And what they did for a living or study? This is not like the Charlie Hebdo attack that you mentioned in another section above. There are not a small number of well-known dead people. Just because something is sourced we don't have to include it. And you're almost giving credence to the sometimes-advanced concept that some people only want to highlight American victims, by the way, hence WP:UNDUE. LjL (talk) 18:06, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

WP is not a newspaper. Firebrace (talk) 18:09, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Indeed. Nor is it a WP:MEMORIAL. We established that after 9/11, with the spin-off into the separate sep11 memorial wiki as a one-off. -- The Anome (talk)

Heh, all the responses use some excuse other than the original "BLP" excuse. Sad, really. XavierItzm (talk) 20:54, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Although WP:NOT (in terms of "memorials") refers to actual articles per se, and NOT lists/names contained within an article, it should be noted it encourages meandering sentiment-laden stories as to victims' personal lives in a mass casualty attack.--Kieronoldham (talk) 21:02, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

That wasn't the original "excuse"; but I have already pointed that out. And as various other people also pointed out, WP:BLP is relevant in what it says about recently deceased people. I suggest you accept that your opinion is the lone dissenting one, and that you overlooked some parts of policy. LjL (talk) 20:57, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Anyone with a Wikipedia page that died should be named and linked (ie notable). The rest should not, because the event will not be known by their names, unlike a kidnapping or something. Legacypac (talk) 05:04, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

November 2015 Paris attacks and Template:Saint-Denis

I notice a user keeps removing this incident from Template:Saint-Denis from the history section. I don't understand what the problem is. This is history, isn't it? @Debresser: WhisperToMe (talk) 18:33, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

@WhisperToMe: I don't see a problem with your addition: it's in the right place, and it's appropriate. WP:CRYSTAL seems unrelated here. I have reinstated it. LjL (talk) 19:01, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Age mention

Currently the article states "French Police confirmed that the three men who attacked the theatre were:" and one of the three listed there has the age mentioned. I think, for reasons of symmetry, either all of them should have the age be mentioned, or none. (I'd probably be in favour of everyone, since this gives extra information, compared to none). As it now stands, it feels a bit awkward to see that some individuals have more information associated with them than the others. Since the age is known of the other ones, I would like to suggest to add this as well. 2A02:8388:1600:A880:BE5F:F4FF:FECD:7CB2 (talk) 20:01, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Sourcing

Just a reminder that this article needs to follow WP:BLPSOURCES. Specifically, it cannot make any contentious claims about living or recently-deceased people based on tabloid journalism. --John (talk) 20:57, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Suspect named

1. Omar Ismail Mostefai, a 29-year-old French citizen of Algerian origin.http://www.bathchronicle.co.uk/Paris-attacks-Bath-mother-daughter-return/story-28174956-detail/story.html
2. 2 French-born brothers of Algerian origin, singled out as suspects. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3318083/France-s-year-terror-Charlie-Hebdo-massacre-sparked-series-extremist-attacks-brought-bloodshed-country-s-shell-shocked-people.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11996678/Paris-terror-attacks-victims-isil-suspects-Syria-arrests-live.html?frame=3500718
3. French citizen of Algerian origin, who had a criminal record and was accused.http://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/Paris-attacks-Derby-Telegraph-readers-use/story-28178266-detail/story.html92.16.213.2 (talk) 22:24, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Wounded (not injured)

They're called "bullet wounds" and "shrapnel wounds". They are not "injuries". These people were not playing a game of football.--99.232.1.160 (talk) 22:26, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Injury and wound are synonymous, doesn't matter which is used. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 22:27, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

If someone was not wounded but, for example, suffered an internal organ injury due to explosions, do they not count? LjL (talk) 22:28, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Injury is damage to the body. This maybe caused by accidents, falls, hits, weapons, and other causes. Major trauma is injury that has the potential to cause prolonged disability or death. In 2013 4.8 million people died from injuries up from 4.3 million in 1990. Bod (talk) 22:29, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Of course we're free to use poor English on Wikipedia. We're also free to raise the standard if we choose.--99.232.1.160 (talk) 22:36, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Except it's perfectly proper English, more proper than "wounded" in fact, which may not cover all the injured, as mentioned above. LjL (talk) 22:38, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Right. Never mind all the bullet and shrapnel wounds. One of them may have fallen over. Therefore paint them all as injured. Brilliant.--99.232.1.160 (talk) 22:40, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

You are wounded by an implement - gun or knife - designed for the task. Anything else is an injury. Isn't that how it works? 86.185.30.207 (talk) 22:41, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

A wound is a type of injury which happens relatively quickly in which skin is torn, cut, or punctured (an open wound), or where blunt force trauma causes a contusion (a closed wound). In pathology, it specifically refers to a sharp injury which damages the dermis of the skin. Injury is damage to the body.This maybe caused by accidents, falls, hits, weapons, and other causes. I've certainly been both injured and wounded by falling over the handlebar of a mountain bike and hitting the gravel road. One might argue that a mountain bike is "an implement designed for the task", but the road almost certainly is designed for another task. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 23:03, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

No, it's not. Check the definitions. And again for the third time, wound is external, while injury can be internal, and it's perfectly conceivable that some people affected by the attacks had internal injuries (there were explosions) rather than wounds. LjL (talk) 23:53, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Couldn't we get the neutral word casualty in?Le Sanglier des Ardennes (talk) 23:55, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

It is already there and mainly used for deaths, not injuries. The word "injuries" is perfectly neutral, and I don't think we should cave in to some editor's weird interpretation of English. LjL (talk) 23:58, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

M. Hollande has said these attacks were an act of war. In war, there are specific usages. My memory needs checking, but I think in the US military, soldiers (combatants) are wounded, and civilians (non-combatants) are injured. Is that a standard in other English-speaking countries? (US vets, have I got that right?) Dcs002 (talk) 02:40, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

The only distinction I can find (e.g., here) is that a wound is a deliberately inflicted injury that tears the flesh, while an injury can be the result of something not intended, i.e., an accident – but wounds are injuries, i.e., those wounded are injured, but those injured may or may not be wounded. In this case, however, I think the distinction is entirely semantic (and rather crass); clearly all of the wounds or other injuries that occurred here were intended (by the attackers), and even if the injuries did not involve broken flesh (such as broken bones from falling from the window of a concert hall or blunt force injuries from an explosion), they were certainly injuries. General Ization ^Talk 05:07, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Number of Perpetrators (more than 8)

The number of attackers dead during the events turned out to be 7, not 8. But the total number must be at least 11.

• 3 self-killed at Stade
• 3 dead at Bataclan
• 1 dead on boulevard Voltaire
• PLUS all the shooters at the restaurants
• even if the same 2 attackers were at sites 2 and 3
• add 2 attackers at site 5

Equals 11 conservatively. There must be sources. Bod (talk) 22:35, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Hadn't the seven dead men been at other sites before? There were three teams and six sites right? So they had moved around I cannot see eleven. Le Sanglier des Ardennes (talk) 22:55, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

If you look at the map and timeline, I think you might rethink the plausibility of travel. There were three teams, the Stade team, and the Bataclan team were all killed (6). One of the shooter team died (1). Bod (talk) 23:41, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Media is saying three teams. They had cars and accomplices, we know. And they were extraordinarily well organised. I don't find it implausible at all. Le Sanglier des Ardennes (talk) 23:47, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Even if the same 3 guys (somehow) moved from the rue Bichat to the rue de la Fontaine-au-roi (7 minutes later) to the Bataclan (8 minutes later), there were still 2 attackers at the rue Charonne, making the total 9. Bod (talk) 00:29, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

That's just the ones we know. It get be more than 11. Kiwifist (talk) 02:56, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

One paper points out that bomb makers don't go on suicide missions since their skills are to important to the group. SO that is at least one suspect at large Legacypac (talk) 05:06, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

129/132

All the news sites are saying 129 and the numbers add up to that; why does this page insist on 132 victims?

State that they died in Hospital then - but couldn't we manage to separate the deaths of the victims and the attackers a little more? I don't think I'd want my death listed together with theirs. Le Sanglier des Ardennes (talk) 22:46, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Because the source linked to the 132 figure (which, I see, has been taken back to 129 now, without changing the source) repeatedly states 132. LjL (talk) 22:47, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Note this quote from them: "18:25 - Death toll now 132 - AFP reports the death toll in Paris attacks rises to 132 after three die", so they didn't dream it up. AFP is Agence France-Presse. LjL (talk) 22:48, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

I've fixed the bar to state explicitly that three died afterwards - and separate then from the immediate casualties. Le Sanglier des Ardennes (talk) 22:51, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Do the sources change or is the article updated? I think then that we should try to make an archived version of the page like https://archive.is/bEco9 (or webcitation.org or webcitation.org) for the source that stated 132 deaths (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11996678/Paris-terror-attacks-victims-isil-suspects-Syria-arrests-live.html) Nsaa (talk) 22:58, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

@Nsaa:It turns out the three victims died in hospital afterwards. Do you want to check how I've arraigned the infobar accordingly? Le Sanglier des Ardennes (talk) 23:01, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Why? If (or sadly, when) the death count changes, the sources will changes, and so will our article have to change. Surely we aren't going to keep saying 132 when it's no longer true? LjL (talk) 23:02, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

129 fell on the night; that number should be kept. As three more have since died, and that number may as you say rise, a separate total should be placed beside 129. Currently, 132. I've already clarified this on the page. Le Sanglier des Ardennes (talk) 23:04, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

I don't like the current infobox version. It's a detail, but last time I had checked it, the "in hospital" death were as indented as the other death location; now that's been de-indented, and is at the same level as the 129 "victims" and the 7 "perpetrators", making it look like it's neither victims nor perpetrators, and making the sum look like it's wrong. I favor the older version. We shouldn't give the impression the victims who died later are "just" "futher persons" who died in the hospital. Their status is basically the same as all the other victims. LjL (talk) 23:16, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Then why can't it be as I've just put it? Le Sanglier des Ardennes (talk) 23:20, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Just seen this at BBC News: "Paris hospitals have said that the official death toll remains at 129 people, and not the 132 as had been earlier reported by AFP news agency." Firebrace (talk) 23:19, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

OK how's that? Le Sanglier des Ardennes (talk) 23:21, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

The 352 injury non-fatalities must also change if true.Bod (talk) 23:35, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Don't change it yet - the reports are still very confused with some media saying the original 129 included the three later deaths. Le Sanglier des Ardennes (talk) 23:37, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

The numbers will come in when they come in. I'm not rushing to change anything. Bod (talk) 23:43, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

I agree, the reporting is all over the place. BBC reports 352 injured, 99 critically, but on the same page it says 415 were admitted to hospital, 80 of whom were critically injured. Firebrace (talk) 00:04, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Other where it says some were removed from critical care. Many were naturally discharged. I don't see a reason to have all the numbers now. Le Sanglier des Ardennes (talk) 00:10, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

I think it's cliche that so many of our articles about mass casualty events say "at least XXX" were killed. It's as if we always want to give the maximum number possible, and then suggest there are even more, even when all deaths have been accounted for. Our sources now say 129 are dead, not at least 129 dead. (Well, that's what the BBC says.) Can we just give the most reliable number in our sources? More might die as a result of their injuries, but they're not dead yet. Let's not write them off. Our statement is present or past tense, not WP:CRYSTALBALL. Dcs002 (talk) 01:50, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

The "at least" stems from a time when the numbers weren't clear at all and it was virtually obvious that there were more casualties than the ones accounted for. Perhaps it's time to get rid of it now (but mind WP:NUMERAL). LjL (talk) 01:58, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Done. I added the BBC as a second source. Is it redundant to say the attacks killed 129 victims? If it is, feel free to clean that up - anyone. Dcs002 (talk) 02:09, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

You would either say 129 were killed in the attacks, or that the attackers killed 129. The attacks did not kill anyone, the attackers did. General Ization ^Talk

Good point. I'll fix that - if you haven't already. I prefer the latter option, per WP:NUMERAL, as LjL pointed out. Dcs002 (talk) 02:19, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Done - "The attackers killed 129 victims,..." Still, it feels redundant to say killed and victims. They couldn't really kill non-victims. Still struggling with that. Dcs002 (talk) 02:27, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

But there can be "victims" that weren't "killed" (injuries). LjL (talk) 13:44, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

You could just say that the attackers killed 129 people. General Ization ^Talk 02:59, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

But they also killed themselves. InedibleHulk (talk) 09:09, November 16, 2015 (UTC)

Quick Restaurant

According to this report at Sky News, when Hollande was first informed of the situation in Paris, it was by saying that "The Quick has blown up", referring to one of several fast-food outlets in Paris. Sky says "The Quick fast food restaurant, just outside one of the stadium's main gates, had just been attacked by a suicide bomber." This would seem to be the Quick St Denis Grand Stade located at Quartier Stade de France rue, 1 Avenue Jules Rimet, 93210 Saint-Denis. I don't see the Quick identified as one of the targets in the article. Does anyone have any info on this? General Ization ^Talk 23:50, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

I was just about to ask this as well, because I have heard some news sources say there were two bombers at Gate J (where there was most likely only the attacker who got flagged down by the security guard) but some say it was a pub near by, and some say it was the Quick. Wondering if there is any one agreement as to which one of these claims is right. YingBlanc (talk) 23:53, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Google Street View shows that the Quick is located directly across avenue Jules Rimet from Gates H and J of the Stade. General Ization ^Talk 00:05, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps the suicide detonation at the Quick was the terrorist who was turned away from the gate to the Stade (though we would need a source that says so). General Ization ^Talk 00:35, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

I don't think this bomber was the one who got turned away. There was only 1 bomber with a ticket to the game and he got turned away at Gate J at which point he detonated his vest. The third attacker past Gate J and the McDonalds haven't been given as much details which is where this confusion of where the bombing happened is taking place. YingBlanc (talk) 10:36, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

bolding and including the article title in the article

What is the wiki policy on this? I have seen both done. My rationale for excluding is that our article title is not the commonly used term for the attack. For example, the frontpage does not use our article title. What are some other thoughts? --JumpLike23 (talk) 03:56, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

WP:BOLDTITLE completely supports your position (see the Mississippi River example there). General Ization ^Talk 04:03, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Is it called "Paris massacre"?

If so, a disambig hatnote at Paris massacre of 1961 may be created. Or we could make Paris massacre a disambig. Thoughts? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:39, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

It's sometimes called that. A disambig hatnote seems fine, but a whole page seems like something we'd only do after this becomes this one's article name (if that happens). InedibleHulk (talk) 07:04, November 16, 2015 (UTC)

Perpetrators in the info box

At the moment the info box states that the perpetrators are the "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant". While that may be the case, I have not seen any proof of it. Nor have I seen any reliable sources stating that as a fact. Most articles states that "ISIS claims responsibility of the attacks".

Should we change it from: "Perpetrators: Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant" to "Perpetrators: Unknown. However, ISIS claims responsibility."? Erlbaeko (talk) 07:47, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

NO, they claimed they did it, some of the individuals came back from Syria, and there is no credible suggestion it was anyone else. In fact France bombed ISIL in retaliation. Legacypac (talk) 07:57, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Or just because that's what France, as a NATO member, does. InedibleHulk (talk) 08:58, November 16, 2015 (UTC)

Earlier, I'd put "Unknown or unnamed Islamic State militants". I was told this didn't suck and still agree it doesn't. We know the general shadowy organization, but not who actually perpetrated (or planned) the attacks. It's a known unknown of sorts. InedibleHulk (talk) 08:30, November 16, 2015 (UTC)

I am ok with, "Unknown or unnamed Islamic State militants" or something like that. I just don't like to state, with Wikipedias voice, that "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant" did it. We don't know that. Erlbaeko (talk) 08:45, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

There's tons of stuff we don't know about this, and ISIS is general. All we can do is follow the sources. Wikipedia doesn't presume to be certain, just accurately reflective of the majority of those. InedibleHulk (talk) 08:56, November 16, 2015 (UTC)

The referenced article states that "ISIS claims responsibility". And it is more than one jihadi group in Syria (if any group in Syria is behind this). Erlbaeko (talk) 09:01, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Agree with Erlbaeko on this. Sources don't state that ISIS was responsible but that ISIS claimed responsibility. Not the same thing. Volunteer Marek  09:04, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

"Unknown or unnamed Islamic State militants (alleged)"? It's not just claimed to be claimed by ISIS, but also widely blamed on ISIS. InedibleHulk (talk) 09:06, November 16, 2015 (UTC)

For that reason I would skip the "Unknown" part. It is... sort of "known" but not with certainty and there are some grounds to be skeptical (it'd sort of be the first for ISIS). Maybe just "(claimed)" or something like that. I'm too tired right now to think of the proper way to do it. Volunteer Marek  09:08, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

That the perpetrators were aligned with ISIS is what is sort of known. Who they were (names, ages, birthplaces, motives) is virtually entirely unknown. The "alleged" part would cover the first slight uncertainty. InedibleHulk (talk) 09:17, November 16, 2015 (UTC)

Wait, apparently I'm out of the loop and we have four IDs now. That's not "virtually entirely". InedibleHulk (talk) 09:20, November 16, 2015 (UTC)

I tried this. Simpler than having perpetrators, assailants and suspected perpetrators, and the "suspected" part covers our asses regarding the people and the group. Does it suck? InedibleHulk (talk) 09:31, November 16, 2015 (UTC)

Works for me, however I prefer a small change to: (allegedly working for Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant) Erlbaeko (talk) 09:39, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

I figured "allegedly" was implied by "suspected", but that would make it clearer, I suppose. InedibleHulk (talk) 09:56, November 16, 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, I think it is ok for now, but this is likely to change rapidly. Erlbaeko (talk) 10:09, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Of course. I'd bet there are five hundred edits here before there are five on the Beirut one. InedibleHulk (talk) 10:38, November 16, 2015 (UTC)

All that is certain so far, is that, through its channels, ISIS has claimed responsibility. Maybe that is all that should stay there. --109.69.249.37 (talk) 09:43, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

ISIS is not a person. It can't perpetrate anything without actual people. InedibleHulk (talk) 09:56, November 16, 2015 (UTC)

That is true. An official "spokesperson" has yet to make a claim... --109.69.249.37 (talk) 10:09, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Beware wording such as "The claim could not be independently verified but it was similar to other IS claims." Because the other claims were fishy, too. InedibleHulk (talk) 10:36, November 16, 2015 (UTC)

Curfew

There was no curfew in Paris following the attacks. It was not mentioned in the French media as far as I am aware. I live near to affected areas so I could also see what was going on. The police did advise people to stay indoors. Some people were blocked inside bars and other venues as directed by the police, but that was on a local case by case basis rather than city-wide. It is difficult to show this given that some news sources incorrectly reported that a curfew was in effect. I have not found any sources saying 'no curfew was in effect'. Can anyone suggest how one should establish the fact that there was no curfew, given the requirements of Wikipedia to reference sources. - Wgsimon (talk) 09:41, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Isn't simply not saying there was a curfew good enough? InedibleHulk (talk) 10:40, November 16, 2015 (UTC)

I just bothered to click the citation on that bit about what "some English sources" say about the curfew. A Huffington Post headline is not "some English sources". Fixed now. InedibleHulk (talk) 12:43, November 16, 2015 (UTC)

If you'd like to straight-up deny the curfew, rather than just not mention it, the Malaysian Embassy can help. InedibleHulk (talk) 12:48, November 16, 2015 (UTC)

This is an ongoing issue (check talk page archives, too). A Canadian news outlet (CTV) started saying there was a curfew and it was the first since WWII (probably misinterpreting the recommendation to stay home), and then other agencies started repeating it, each time making the claim sound more sensational. Wikipedia joined in, despite me and some other editors pointing out these news were most likely false, on the ground of what local French sources said. But oh well, it's not like Wikipedia posting false information ever causes them to be perpetuated in other publications, is it? LjL (talk) 13:42, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Better source than Taheri?

I searched briefly but couldn't find other news articles to backup the statement that 'Islamic State has referred to the Paris attacks as a "ghazwa" (religious raid)'. The Wikipedia entry for the author raises concerns about reliability. Meticulo (talk) 09:53, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Well as Wikipedia isn't a news site I'd say it would be best for us after "the smoke has cleared" to see if any other news agencies will use the term, and especially agencies of more prestige. The problem with these types of articles and the news sites reporting on them is that when you insert the wrong sources it might fall under WP:CRYSTAL and WP:TOOSOON. --Cookie Nguyen (talk) 10:27, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Statistical point

As the article reads: The attacks were the deadliest in France since the Second World War, and the deadliest in the European Union since the Madrid train bombings in 2004.

As this is about coordinated attacks against a country directly involved in military action against ISIS (not as part of a wider organisation), is there really the need to highlight that this ranks worst within EU since 2004? I cannot help but think there is some pan-EU connotation here whereby its proponents view it as more than just a politico-economic union, but instead as a superstate. In my honest opinion, if we are discussing multi-state groups then NATO is more more significant - but this would need a revision as to member states and you'd have to take 9/11 into account. I know my tone here may sound insensitive and I have no intention of downplaying the atrocitites, it is just that I fail to see their significance within the EU. Supposing this didn't happen in France but in Switzerland (non-EU), it would still be some type of "worst attack since Madrid 2004" perhaps on European soil but the concept of what is truly only a member's club - the EU - should not be projected into hyper-significance here. Furthermore, it was not the EU that was attacked, the target was specifically France and not Finland. --OJ (talk) 12:41, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

PS. The list of organisations that France is signatory to, major or minor, is extremely long. --OJ (talk) 12:43, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Where does this rank among the Agreement on the Conservation of African-Eurasian Migratory Waterbirds nations? Yes, it does seem a peculiarly arbitrary factoid. Wikipedia has a thing about noting when things are the deadliest. If there were deadlier, it becomes "deadliest in" or "deadliest since". But the France part alone should be enough to satisfy that weird need. InedibleHulk (talk) 12:58, November 16, 2015 (UTC)

The phrase "deadliest in France since the Second World War" is tendentious, as it selectively takes criterias in or out of consideration for a sensational statement. The Paris massacre of 1961 probably outweights the recent attacks, and depending on what you consider to be France, the Sétif and Guelma massacre is far higher. I call for a complete removal of such language in the name of the WP:NPOV policy. Rama (talk) 13:17, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Somewhere between 1,020 and 45,000 people? That's an amazing range of guesswork, nevermind the deadliness. Seems like where there's French police, that'd be France. InedibleHulk (talk) 13:56, November 16, 2015 (UTC)

Not quite exactly: you would have had French police in Indochina, for instance, even though the country was a colony; Algeria, however, had the same status as Corsica has today, it was litterally a part of France. The implicit argument that because it gained independance the massacres that occurred there when is was a part of France somehow do not count does not attract my sympathy. Rama (talk) 17:37, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm explicitly saying I do count it, if you're implying that I'm implying the other thing. InedibleHulk (talk) 17:44, November 16, 2015 (UTC)

Whether or not the "deadliest in" claims are justified (I'd probably remove them), I will point out that the EU is pretty much a "superstate" in many respects, and when you call it "just a politico-economic union", well, what do you think a state generally is? Pretty much a politico-economic union. It's not comparable to a military alliance like NATO. LjL (talk) 13:39, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Doesn't have an Olympic team, not a real state. InedibleHulk (talk) 13:50, November 16, 2015 (UTC)

LjL, I know exactly what the EU is, but the superstate that its proponents wish to make it is precisely what it purports not to be, instead it is billed as a union of "free" and "independent" states. If you are asking what I think a state generally is then my answer is a sovereign entity. Most of my family live in Croatia and as all of them oppose Croatia being in the union, they all consider Croatia the sovereign entity regardless of how much has been centralised and devolved to Brussels. In the end of the day, the EU is a member's club and if a leader arbitrarily pulls the plug on his own membership, the implications may be drastic but it is not the same as the authorities of Friuli unilaterally declaring independence from Italy. In the end of the day, it is neither the EU nor NATO that is at war with ISIS, it is a set of countries from inside and outside the EU who have entered a conflict by their own choosing. As such, no matter what the event, deadly attack or erection of fifth highest traffic lights, there is no special reason to tell the reader where this ranks within the sovereign territories of 28 contemporary states. --OJ (talk) 14:04, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Actually, there is no process for a country to leave the EU (there would have been if countries/people had accepted the EU Constitution at the time it was proposed), and the EU treaties are binding, so in effect, countries have given up part of their sovereignty without an option to gain it back. What would happen if one country tried to forcibly/unilaterally "pull the plug" is anybody's guess. LjL (talk) 14:07, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Look just because a trade bloc has exceeded itself to the point it is the only one of its kind, there is no grey area on this issue. The EU is not a member of NATO, but France is while Sweden isn't. The EU does not have a seat on the UN, but its members occupy 28 seats, one per state. There really is no discussion here. The argument is whether the EU is something so vital that we need to specify a "second worst within random time frame" incident, and my opinion is that it is not. Your argument rests on how powerful the organisation has become, but to me if something happens one day in Portugal, the next day in Austria and the day after that in Greece, it is completely irrelevant since these three countries do not border, have nothing in common culturally or historically, speak unrelated languages and don't all use the same script. In other words, I doubt anything needs to be stated as "biggest in EU" or "longest in EU", as such "worst since 2004" is hyperbole. --OJ (talk) 14:22, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

The EU does have a seat as an observer state in the UN. You may be right or wrong (probably right) about the fact that we don't need to make boasting claims in the article, but you're stating some inaccuracies. LjL (talk) 14:35, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

The source for that claim says "Friday's attacks were the deadliest in Europe", so I'm going to change it to Europe. Firebrace (talk) 14:36, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Still seems a bit extra to the "in France" part. Why not include the whole world next? Deadliest there since 2015, I think. But yeah, it's a bit better. InedibleHulk (talk) 17:22, November 16, 2015 (UTC)

P.S. As for what would happen if all treaties are in place and a country broke away, well my guess is as good as yours, it hasn't happened so I am none the wiser. However I'll tell you what will not happen, that is you won't have the militaries of 27 states invading the breakaway to oust the secessionist government and replace it with a pro-EU regime that will be loyal to Brussels. Such measures just cannot be considered internationally lawful because a state has breached membership terms. --OJ (talk) 14:31, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Hoaxes

A Skith man was falsely labeled by Spanish and Italian news organisations of being one of the terrorists in the attack

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/16/canadian-pictured-as-paris-terrorist-in-suspected-gamergate-smear

http://www.hindustantimes.com/world/sikh-man-at-centre-of-storm-after-being-depicted-as-paris-attacker/story-7FYafLuavIvYJRdUf91f3O.html

31.17.1.71 (talk) 12:55, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

And? InedibleHulk (talk) 13:02, November 16, 2015 (UTC)

needs to be put in aftermath with title "hoaxes" 31.17.1.71 (talk) 13:27, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Does it really? Many pieces of wrong information have been / will be circulated. Is it important? LjL (talk) 13:34, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Strongly oppose Has nothing to do with the attacks and the subject is not a public figure and should not be harassed. -- Veggies (talk) 13:41, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Oppose Not relevant. General Ization ^Talk 13:42, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Yeah. Mosque arson is bad enough for Canada's image today. Don't need other idiots getting angry. InedibleHulk (talk) 13:46, November 16, 2015 (UTC)

Not Wiki's responsibility - nor the news outlets' - articles are to cite RS's and written per the guidelines, and that's all. 98.67.190.14 (talk) 15:12, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

No, that's far from "all". We include or don't include things not just based on WP:RS treatment of them, but also WP:N, WP:UNDUE and a number of other policies. Specifically, "Like everything else, hoaxes must be notable to be covered in Wikipedia—for example, a hoax may have received sustained media attention, been believed by thousands of people including academics, or been believed for many years." (from WP:HOAX). LjL (talk) 15:18, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Otherwise known as GUIDELINES. But I wasn't referring to any of that - read who I was replying to and what I replied about. It isn't Wiki's responsibility to prevent crimes in the outside world, just to write an encyclopedia. 98.67.190.14 (talk) 15:44, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

An encyclopedia written per the guidelines (and policies, which technically are distinct here). I'm not opposed to potentially putting a target on man's back because it's my responsibility as a Wikipedian, it just seems like a dick move. If it added any value to the topic, I might consider it. Seems like it could be relevant in GamerGate. But since we know there's no actual connection to this, we'd look foolish connecting it here. InedibleHulk (talk) 17:02, November 16, 2015 (UTC)

Not done for now: As other editors have said, this may not be relevant and the statement not correct. epic genius (talk) 17:00, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Les Fédérations Musulmanes

@Firebrace: ... what? I'm not sure if Les Fédérations Musulmanes is notable enough to have its own article on the English Wikipedia, but surely, it makes no sense to claim that "if it had its own article, it would be in French". What's the rationale for that claim? That their name is in French? Surely that means nothing. An organization with a name in any language can be covered on the English Wikipedia (random example: Accademia della Crusca). LjL (talk) 13:52, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Much more importantly, I'm seeing that the sources given make no mention of an organization called "Les Fédérations Musulmanes": the English source doesn't mention it at all, while the French sources simply talk about "les fédérations musulmanes" (meaning "the Muslim organizations") generically. Dare I suspect that someone just mistook that for a specific organization? LjL (talk) 13:56, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

I can't find any reference to Les Fédérations Musulmanes on Google. It translates as 'Muslim federations' and appears to be a generic term, rather than a proper noun. Firebrace (talk) 13:58, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. I'll remove it. LjL (talk) 14:00, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Quotes from concert hall

• https://sg.news.yahoo.com/paris-attacks-dont-move-well-kill-201441393.html

"What's happening to you, is your fault. We are avenging our brothers in Syria."

• https://sg.news.yahoo.com/survivor-paris-concert-massacre-recounts-moment-doom-133230092.html

"For five minutes, the gunmen next to us tried to boost our confidence."

2601:600:8500:5B1:D41B:E837:1128:2F01 (talk) 14:22, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

"who entered France posing as a Syrian refugee"

This is the current description for Ahmad Almuhammad, also spelled Ahmed Almuhamed. Here is a more recent or more informative article: https://sg.news.yahoo.com/greece-names-man-whose-syrian-passport-found-paris-181514380.html He was not labelled as suspicious and wasn't on any lists. "In an official statement the Serbian interior ministry said the Syrian passport was recently registered at the Presevo border crossing (between Macedonia and Serbia), where alMohammad formally sought asylum." Last recorded in Croatia. Does not list any evidence he was living in France. 2601:600:8500:5B1:D41B:E837:1128:2F01 (talk) 15:36, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Are you asking for any particular bit of information to be included in the article? Or amended? LjL (talk) 15:40, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

It seems inaccurate. The referenced article says, "The men crossed into Europe through Greece and made their way through several other countries, including Hungary, before reaching France, according to reports." But a lot of information is indicating that some, and possibly all of those who participated in the event, came from Belgium, not France. 2601:600:8500:5B1:D41B:E837:1128:2F01 (talk) 17:17, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Surely they "reached France" eventually, though? It says "several other countries", so Belgium isn't ruled out. I'm still not sure I see the issue. LjL (talk) 17:20, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

The refugee debate is partly about whether the EU should allow war refugees at all and if so how many, and partly about which countries should accept those refugees before, or after their applications are processed. After processing, they are free to travel anywhere, but processing can take some time, can cost the state money, and refugees might stay in the same place if their application is accepted. France has not been a primary destination for refugees, but it is participating in the plan to distribute refugees who are applying, instead of having them all stay in the first country they reach (the Dublin Regulation). If those who participated in the attack were living in Belgium instead of France, it will change whether some people approve of France accepting refugees. If they traveled from Belgium to France just before the attack, they likely did not represent themselves as refugees while doing so. 2601:600:8500:5B1:D41B:E837:1128:2F01 (talk) 19:33, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

More direct quotes from the IS?

In the section "ISIL responsibility", the article currently just says that the IS claimed responsibility. It doesn't say anything about what the IS said was why the attacks took place, or what France should expect in the future. (This could be different from what those who participated in the attacks themselves said.) The quotes that I remember that seemed important were that "Paris is the capital of prostitution" etc., and that "France is among the top" of the list of enemies. The Wikipedia article currently mentions the probable death of a famous IS personality, without explaining why it mentions this; some media organizations, such as The Sun, speculated that the attacks were in revenge. But, of course, why attack France when it was the UK and US that launched the missile strike? The IS's statements give a sense of "France is not our main enemy", which creates a situation that sort of excuses France from taking significant action. A lot of comments on a Yahoo news article about France's airstrikes expressed skepticism about them, wondering how a "headquarters" could have been identified but not destroyed before now. It may be able to convey this point without using direct quotes, but the Wikipedia article avoids addressing the topic entirely. 2601:600:8500:5B1:D41B:E837:1128:2F01 (talk) 17:25, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Some of those claimed motivations are mentioned in the infobox at the top of the article, under "Motives". LjL (talk) 17:34, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Just be careful pulling "direct" quotes from this translation. There's nothing in the French version that says "apostate" or "profligate prostitution party". It's "idolater" and "perversion party". And Paris is "the capital of abomination and perversion", not "obscenity and prostitution". Probably many other mistakes. The Arabic might be closer, but I doubt it. InedibleHulk (talk) 17:36, November 16, 2015 (UTC)

This is helpful. The infobox gives two links; one just talks about those at the concert hall, the other only mentions some of the issues from the IS's statement (like other articles I had read). I was looking at the Guardian's live event and a transcript, but the Google translation isn't clear with the grammar. I agree that direct quotes are not as useful as I had suggested, given that the statements weren't in English. "Cursing/insulting our prophet" is not currently mentioned as a 'motive' in this Wikipedia article. Given the international reaction and Je suis Charlie, it seems significant that the IS maintains this as an issue. (Committing slander will earn you 80 lashes in the IS and possibly other countries like Saudi Arabia, I actually did not know that before.)

The point I originally intended to make though was that the attack may have more complex motives than it seems. The translation, by someone who is better at French grammar than Google Translate, seems to support this; it mentions situations having a certain state, not specific (or recent) actions, as the reason for why "the smell of death will never leave their noses". Was the smell of death in their noses before this attack, described as the first, or beginning of the storm?

My original edit before an edit conflict: I'm saying this because one such direct quote was removed from International reactions to the November 2015 Paris attacks on the grounds that it wasn't an "international reaction", but instead belonged in the main article. And to be a bit more clear: a famous French person released a graphic or something saying "those who were killed did not know that they were at war, but were enjoying themselves" etc. The IS's statement also suggests that it perceives that people in France did not feel it was a priority to drop more bombs on the IS (prostitution conflicts with dropping bombs). I didn't read the full statement; I read that the IS did say that France's airpower was ineffective in the streets of Paris, but I am not aware of the IS saying in its official statement that the attack was in retaliation for France's bombing of the IS. However, those were who were at the concert hall may have suggested, or said this. This may be too nuanced for an encyclopedia though. 2601:600:8500:5B1:D41B:E837:1128:2F01 (talk) 18:19, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Well, this is complicated, but on the whole, I'm certainly not opposed to explaining in the article what the claimed motives of ISIL were, as long as it's all properly sourced. Honestly though, I'm not going to do this research myself right now; why don't you make an edit request with the exact text you deem should be added? LjL (talk) 18:24, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

My mistake, there is a mention of "insults to Islam's prophet" (though not where you would expect in the article). The issue, I guess, is that any 'properly sourced' statements about the IS's motives will be based either on those who participated in the attacks, or the media statement by the IS. If a media organization says the IS's statement says something that it doesn't, then they're wrong, no matter how good of a reputation that media organization has. (Another, somewhat related issue, is a story will say "an expert speculated that this was their motive", then Wikipedia says "this was their motive". This is a minor violation of Wikipedia's rules, quite common, and usually helpful and appropriate, but...) 2601:600:8500:5B1:D41B:E837:1128:2F01 (talk) 19:05, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

DOB removed for Omar Ismaël Mostefai?

Why was the Date of Birth (DOB) removed by Firebrace (talk · contribs)? Nsaa (talk) 17:37, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Why was it included? Firebrace (talk) 18:11, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Why would we care about the exact date of birth? It still mentions his age, which seems more than enough. LjL (talk) 18:15, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

{{coord}} templates for the various locations, should anyone care to add them to the infobox or body. Decimal degrees format to 3 or 4 decimal positions depending on the rough size of the area represented, per WP:COORDPREC. The article currently specifies one coordinates pair (Comptoir Voltaire) as a ref, which I believe is improper usage of coord. Footnotes using {{efn}} could be used to save space, as at the end of this sentence.

Stade de France group: 48.924°N 2.362°E / 48.924; 2.362

Rue Bichat and rue Alibert: 48.8719°N 2.3679°E / 48.8719; 2.3679

Rue de la Fontaine-au-Roi: 48.8687°N 2.3682°E / 48.8687; 2.3682

Rue de Charonne (La Belle Équipe): 48.8539°N 2.3819°E / 48.8539; 2.3819

Boulevard Voltaire (Comptoir Volltaire): 48.8504°N 2.3930°E / 48.8504; 2.3930

Bataclan: 48.8630°N 2.3707°E / 48.8630; 2.3707

72.198.26.61 (talk) 18:24, 16 November 2015 (UTC)