Revision as of 06:04, 16 December 2015

Article Rework Notes

The entire article has been reworked and as such the old talk section is no longer relevant. Please use this section for discussion about the rework itself but open a new section for discussion on other topics. I have used the following unaffiliated sources as the primary reference with due weight given to reliable affiliated sources:

Lewis, James R. (2002). The Encyclopedia of Cults, Sects, and New Religions. Prometheus Books, Publishers. pp. 760–762. ISBN 978-1-61592-738-8. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)
Kuhn, Alvin Boyd (1930). Theosophy: a modern revival of ancient wisdom. Kila, MT: Kessinger. pp. 183–184. ISBN 978-1564591753. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)

Sources

The following sources were considered but not included in the article.

Unaffiliated

Ellwood, Robert S. (1988). Religious and Spiritual Groups in Modern America. Prentice Hall. ISBN 978-0-13-773045-2. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)
Gomes, Michael (1994). Theosophy in the nineteenth century: an annotated bibliography. New York: Garland. ISBN 0824080947.
Santucci, Dr. James (April 2013). "Theosophy and the Theosophical Societies" (PDF). Theosophy Forward.
Olav Hammer; Mikael Rothstein (2012). The Cambridge Companion to New Religious Movements. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-1-107-49355-1.

Affiliated

"The United Lodge of Theosophists - Its Mission and Its Future". The Theosophy Company, Los Angeles.
"The Man Who Rescued Theosophy - A brief biography of Robert Crosbie". Blavatsky Theosophy Group, UK.
Kell, Wane (1998). "Biography of Robert Crosbie, part 1". Theos-Talk Archives. {{cite web}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)
Kell, Wane (1998). "Biography of Robert Crosbie, part 2". Theos-Talk Archives. {{cite web}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)
Blavatsky Theosophy Group UK. "The Four Branches of the Theosophical Movement". {{cite web}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)

Ratreya (talk) 09:41, 9 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
+= Article Rework Notes =
-I do no understand this clause; "As an effect lies in germ form deep within its cause".  I am a native english speaker but I can make no sense of it.  Does it use language that would only be familiar to a Theosophist or is my vocabulary simply weaker than I had realized?
+The entire article has been reworked and as such the old talk section is no longer relevant. Please use this section for discussion about the rework itself but open a new section for discussion on other topics. I have used the following unaffiliated sources as the primary reference with due weight given to reliable affiliated sources:
-(previous comment left in 01:23, 10 May 2006 by Icarus Down)
+* {{cite book|first=James R.|last=Lewis|title=The Encyclopedia of Cults, Sects, and New Religions|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=lk8_ARNz-dYC&pg=PA760|year=2002|publisher=Prometheus Books, Publishers|isbn=978-1-61592-738-8|pages=760–762|ref=harv}}
+* {{cite book|last1=Kuhn|first1=Alvin Boyd|title=Theosophy: a modern revival of ancient wisdom|url=https://archive.org/details/TheosophyAModernRevivalOfAncientWisdom|date=1930|publisher=Kessinger|location=Kila, MT|isbn=978-1564591753|pages=183-184|ref=harv}}
+== Sources ==
-:I agree I cannot make sense of it either, in fact the whole article needs heavy work [[User:Dwarf Kirlston|Dwarf Kirlston]] 20:00, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
+The following sources were considered but not included in the article.
+==== Unaffiliated ====
-::The phrase has a profound meaning and to understand it, one must have internalized the core concept of Karma. For that, I would refer you to an excellent article on Karma by Willam Q Judge ([http://www.blavatsky.net/theosophy/judge/articles/aphorisms-on-karma.htm APHORISMS ON KARMA]). But at a high level what it means is that, an effect is fully determined by it's cause or causes. And when viewed from the other side, the cause contains in it the seeds of all its effects which merely unfold over time. Essentially, nothing that is manifest is without an "efficient cause" ([[Four_causes]]).  <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Ratreya|Ratreya]] ([[User talk:Ratreya|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Ratreya|contribs]]) 05:48, 11 March 2011 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
+* {{cite book|first=Robert S.|last=Ellwood|title=Religious and Spiritual Groups in Modern America|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=1BPcAAAAMAAJ|year=1988|publisher=Prentice Hall|isbn=978-0-13-773045-2|ref=harv}}
+* {{cite book|last1=Gomes|first1=Michael|title=Theosophy in the nineteenth century: an annotated bibliography|date=1994|publisher=Garland|location=New York|isbn=0824080947}}
-== Nothing but a giant damn copyright violation ==
+* {{cite web|last1=Santucci|first1=Dr. James|title=Theosophy and the Theosophical Societies|url=http://www.theosophyforward.net/pdf/TheosophyAndTheTS.pdf#17|date=April 2013|website=Theosophy Forward}}
+* {{cite book|author1=Olav Hammer|author2=Mikael Rothstein|title=The Cambridge Companion to New Religious Movements|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=RM0AAwAAQBAJ|date=2012|publisher=Cambridge University Press|isbn=978-1-107-49355-1}}
-This article plagiarizes [http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/theosophica%20lmovement.htm this] and [http://www.ult.org/ this] website.  There are also no secondary sources, so if the copyvio CSD doesn't go for some reason through there's that. [[User:Ian.thomson|Ian.thomson]] ([[User talk:Ian.thomson|talk]]) 01:13, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
+==== Affiliated ====
-:The first line of the lede is original.
-:The second paragraph of the lede is taken from page 316 of [http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/theosophica%20lmovement.htm this source].
+* {{cite web|title=The United Lodge of Theosophists - Its Mission and Its Future|url=http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/amission.htm|publisher=The Theosophy Company, Los Angeles}}
+* {{cite web|title=The Man Who Rescued Theosophy - A brief biography of Robert Crosbie|url=http://blavatskytheosophy.com/the-man-who-rescued-theosophy/|publisher=Blavatsky Theosophy Group, UK}}
-:The third paragraph of the lede is a mixture of plagiarism from [http://www.ult.org/ this site] and original advertising.
+* {{cite web|last1=Kell|first1=Wane|title=Biography of Robert Crosbie, part 1|url=http://www.theosophy.com/theos-talk/199803/tt00004.html|website=Theos-Talk Archives|year=1998|ref=harv}}
-:The last portion of the lede is original but not supported by the source cited.
+* {{cite web|last1=Kell|first1=Wane|title=Biography of Robert Crosbie, part 2|url=http://www.theosophy.com/theos-talk/199803/tt00005.html|website=Theos-Talk Archives|year=1998|ref=harv}}
-:The declaration section is straight from [http://www.ult.org/ this site].
+* {{cite web|title=The Four Branches of the Theosophical Movement|url=http://blavatskytheosophy.com/the-four-branches-of-the-theosophical-movement/|last=Blavatsky Theosophy Group UK|ref=harv}}
-:Was it impossible to manage something original?  Could they do no better than to steal from those who came before them?  [[User:Ian.thomson|Ian.thomson]] ([[User talk:Ian.thomson|talk]]) 01:21, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
+[[User:Ratreya|Ratreya]] ([[User talk:Ratreya|talk]]) 09:41, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
-::Ok, I see that the copyvios were introduced by [[Special:Contributions/97.113.112.246|this IP]].  Still, going to [https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=United_Lodge_of_Theosophists&oldid=418207698 the version from before that], you still have no indication of notability, and the problem of [[WP:ADVOCACY]] in the article. [[User:Ian.thomson|Ian.thomson]] ([[User talk:Ian.thomson|talk]]) 01:46, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
-I have been meaning to improve this article for a while now and this is a good forcing function. An organization which is more than a century old with about 25 different branches all over the world deserves to be well represented in Wikipedia. I am going to remove the deletion recommendation and add back the valuable information about various centers, which was reverted. And I will incrementally improve the remaining article from there. [[User:Ratreya|Ratreya]] ([[User talk:Ratreya|talk]]) 03:53, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
-:{{ping|Ratreya}} [[WP:NOTDIRECTORY|Wikipedia is not a directory]].  Articles must have [[WP:GNG|multiple independent]] [[WP:PSTS|non-primary]] [[WP:RS|professionally published mainstream sources]] [[WP:GNG|specifically about the topic]] to exist.  [[User:Ian.thomson|Ian.thomson]] ([[User talk:Ian.thomson|talk]]) 03:58, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
-== Article rework notes ==
-Notes about the article's rework in case others want to contribute. As for 7/8, this is very much a work in progress. Please feel free to comment and/or edit any of the following.
-=== High-level topics ===
-'''Overview''':
-* The mission and declaration
-* Exclusive focus on the ''original'', ''unaltered'' publications of the founders - HPB and WQJ
-* Reinstatement of WQJ's body of work into mainstream Theosophical literature
-* The unique nature of the lodge which focuses on the message and the messengers of the Theosophical Movement
-* No personal considerations such as organizational structure, affiliation or authority - not considered an ''organization''
-* Articles from ULT being unsigned in the same self-effacing spirit of the lodge
-* Nature of the meetings and study classes
-'''History''':
-* Corsbie in TS and his association with WQJ
-* WQJ's death and succession of Mrs. Tingley
-* Reasons for Crosbie's leaving TS and starting his own study group
-* Initial study group with 7 other students
-* Founding of the ULT
-* Crosbie's death
-* B.P. Wadia's discovery of ULT and WQJ's body of work
-* BPW's deep appreciation of ULT's founding principles and recognition of WQJ as one of the original founders
-* BPW's failed attempts at reforming TS back in Adyar
-* BPW quitting TS and the work he did for ULT (starting of branches around the world)
-'''Various branches''':
-A short bio of each active branch:
-:when it was founded, by who, noteworthy history, a photograph (if available), contact information, study class timing and website link
-=== References ===
-'''Primary''' sources:
-* History: http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/theosophica%20lmovement.htm pg: 316
-* Purpose and Deceleration: http://theosophy.org/Crosbie/Friendly%20Philosopher/AFriend.htm
-* BPW's era: http://www.katinkahesselink.net/his/dtb_2.htm "1919 - Meets Members of the United Lodge of Theosophists (ULT)"
-'''Secondary''' sources:
-* http://www.filosofiaesoterica.com/ler.php?id=226#.VZ0oN-fI9O8
-* http://blavatskytheosophy.com/on-anonymity-and-impersonality/
-[[User:Ratreya|Ratreya]] ([[User talk:Ratreya|talk]]) 14:24, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
-:Those "secondary" sources are still affiliated with the ULT.  Furthermore, the first one is a personal site, and the second one is a WordPress blog, which both fail [[WP:USERG]].
-:The way to start articles is to get [[WP:RS|professionally published mainstream academic sources]] [[WP:GNG|unaffiliated with the subject]] and summarize those.  Then you can expand them with [[WP:DUE]] weight from affiliated sources.  [[User:Ian.thomson|Ian.thomson]] ([[User talk:Ian.thomson|talk]]) 21:40, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
-::Some additional '''unaffiliated sources''' we could look into:
-::* https://books.google.com/books?id=0VozAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA73
-::* More references here: http://www.academia.edu/3323618/Summary_of_Theosophy
-::** [http://www.theosophyforward.net/pdf/TheosophyAndTheTS.pdf#17 http://www.theosophyforward.net/pdf/TheosophyAndTheTS.pdf#17]
-::** [http://www.theohistory.org/articles/Theosophy_Theo_Societies.doc http://www.theohistory.org/articles/Theosophy_Theo_Societies.doc] pg:6
-::** Gomes, Michael. Theosophy in the Nineteenth Century: An Annotated Bibliography. New York: Garland Publishers, 1994
-::[[User:Ratreya|Ratreya]] ([[User talk:Ratreya|talk]]) 02:19, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
-:::Academia.edu is [[WP:USERG|user generated]] as well, and so fails [[WP:RS]].  That Google Books result (from academic publishers like [[Brill Publishers]]) is exactly the sort of source needed to establish notability -- you just need more than one source like that.  [https://books.google.com/books?id=v2yiyLLOj88C&lpg=PA2988&dq=%22United%20Lodge%20of%20Theosophists%22&pg=PA2988#v=onepage&q&f=false Religions of the World], edited by [[J. Gordon Melton]] and published by [[ABC-CLIO]] is another high-quality source, as is [https://books.google.com/books?id=RM0AAwAAQBAJ&lpg=PA231&dq=%22United%20Lodge%20of%20Theosophists%22&pg=PA231#v=onepage&q&f=false The Cambridge Companion to New Religious Movements], by [[Olav Hammer]] and published by [[Cambridge University Press]].  [[User:Ian.thomson|Ian.thomson]] ([[User talk:Ian.thomson|talk]]) 04:05, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
-::::The Theosophyforward.net link is affiliated.  You need non-Theosophical sources, you need secular academic sources.  [[User:Ian.thomson|Ian.thomson]] ([[User talk:Ian.thomson|talk]]) 19:47, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
-::::Same for the Theohistory.org source... [[User:Ian.thomson|Ian.thomson]] ([[User talk:Ian.thomson|talk]]) 19:53, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
-:::::The PDF is an article written by Dr. James A. Santucci - Chair and Professor of Comparative Religion at California State University , Fullerton. Published by Theosophy Forward.
-:::::The theohistory website states, "Theosophical History is an independent scholarly journal devoted to all aspects of theosophy (with and without a capital T). It is unaffiliated with any Theosophical organization." [[User:Ratreya|Ratreya]] ([[User talk:Ratreya|talk]]) 20:12, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
-=== Final List of References ===
-'''Unaffiliated Sources''':
-* [https://books.google.com/books?id=v2yiyLLOj88C&pg=PA2988 Religions of the World], edited by [[J. Gordon Melton]], published by [[ABC-CLIO]]
-* [https://books.google.com/books?id=RM0AAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA237 The Cambridge Companion to New Religious Movements], by [[Olav Hammer]], published by [[Cambridge University Press]]
-* [https://books.google.com/books?id=0VozAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA73 Handbook of the Theosophical Current], by [[Olav Hammer]], published by [[Brill Publishers]]
-* Theosophy in the Nineteenth Century: An Annotated Bibliography, by Michael Gomes, published by [[Garland Science|Garland Publishers]], 1994
-* [http://www.theosophyforward.net/pdf/TheosophyAndTheTS.pdf#17 Theosophy and the Theosophical Societies], by [http://faculty.fullerton.edu/jsantucci/ Dr. James A. Santucci] and published by [http://www.theosophyforward.com/ Theosophy Forward]
-'''Affiliated Sources''':
-* [http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/theosophica%20lmovement.htm The Theosophical Movement 1875 - 1950] published by the Cunningham Press, 1951
-* [http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/amission.htm The United Lodge of Theosophists - Its Mission and Its Future] published by the Theosophy Company, Los Angeles
-* [http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/Friendly.htm The  Friendly  Philosopher], by Robert Crosbie, published by the Theosophy Company, Los Angeles
-* [http://www.iiwcindia.org/bpwadia-bio.html B.P.Wadia - A Life of Service to Mankind], compiled by Wane Kell
-* Biography of Robert Crosbie [http://www.theosophy.com/theos-talk/199803/tt00004.html Part 1] and [http://www.theosophy.com/theos-talk/199803/tt00005.html Part 2], compiled by Wane Kell
-* [http://blavatskytheosophy.com/the-man-who-rescued-theosophy/ The Man Who Rescued Theosophy - A brief biography of Robert Crosbie], published by the Blavatsky Theosophy Group, UK
-[[User:Ratreya|Ratreya]] ([[User talk:Ratreya|talk]]) 15:04, 11 July 2015 (UTC)