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December 15

Why are certain saints' names listed in the Roman Catholic Missal?

There is a part in the Roman Catholic church mass (toward the very end of the mass) where the priest reads off the names of some saints (perhaps six or seven). Off the top of my head, I think I remember: St. Felicity, St. Perpetua, Saint Sixtus, and St. Linus (I think, but I could be wrong). My question is: why are these specific saints named in the Roman Catholic Missal? From the many thousands of saints, why do their names get special mention? It always struck me as odd, since they seem (to me) like the more "obscure" saints, and not the "big names" that most people are familiar with. Thanks. 2602:252:D13:6D70:14C4:9303:8519:D32A (talk) 03:59, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

This is explained at Roman Canon; knowing nothing of it myself, it appears that the text covers founding figures, early Popes, martyred Popes, and then a few miscellaneous martyrs at the end who are least explicable - John and Paul, Saints Cosmas and Damian. Much of this is in parentheses - I'm not sure if that indicates whether that is part of the text made optional (?) by Pope Pius V during the Counter-Reformation. Wnt (talk) 09:24, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Lawrence, Chrysogonus, John and Paul, and Cosmas and Damian all had ancient basilicas named after them in Rome (Basilica of Saint Lawrence outside the Walls, San Crisogono, Santi Giovanni e Paolo and Santi Cosma e Damiano. Why those ones are singled out from all the other churches in Rome, I don't know, but I suppose they are were the Roman Canon was developed. Adam Bishop (talk) 12:15, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

You can also read more at Canon of the Mass and History of the Roman Canon. --Jayron32 12:24, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. That article (Roman Canon) states the names of the fifteen saints who are mentioned, but it doesn't really say why those fifteen are specifically selected for mention. Does anyone know anything further? Thanks. 2602:252:D13:6D70:14DE:69F5:F4C:EAE3 (talk) 16:09, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Are you talking about the ones in the "second intercession" section? Adam Bishop (talk) 17:33, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Second Intersession section, yes. It lists: John the Baptist, Stephen, Matthias, Barnabas, (Ignatius, Alexander, Marcellinus, Peter, Felicity, Perpetua, Agatha, Lucy, Agnes, Cecilia, Anastasia) and all your Saints. 2602:252:D13:6D70:14DE:69F5:F4C:EAE3 (talk) 19:43, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure...and from preliminary research, it seems that no one else really knows either, it just sort of happened. None of these saints are really obscure though. They're all among the earliest martyrs. John the Baptist should be super famous. Stephen was the first Christian martyr. Matthias was the replacement for Judas. The seven female saints are all, well, pretty much the most famous early female martyrs. But why those saints and not others? I don't know. Adam Bishop (talk) 15:13, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, it always struck me as very odd. I mean: a saint is a saint is a saint. It's not like one saint is "better" or "more worthy" than another. Right? My guess is that this list was originally promulgated for whatever (arbitrary) reason. And then, through time, it just "stuck". 2602:252:D13:6D70:1076:CA7D:442C:6841 (talk) 19:11, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Like for other parts of the Canon, these saints and martyrs have ancient churches in Rome too...for the most part: Archbasilica of St. John Lateran, Santo Stefano al Monte Celio, Santi Marcellino e Pietro al Laterano, Sant'Agata dei Goti, Santa Lucia in Selci, Sant'Agnese fuori le mura, Santa Cecilia in Trastevere, and Basilica di Sant'Anastasia al Palatino. So it's possible that these saints were mentioned specifically because there were already churches dedicated to them in Rome. But there are plenty of other churches for saints that aren't mentioned in the canon, and I don't see any for Matthias, Barnabas, Ignatius, Alexander, Felicity, or Perpetua, so this hypothesis may not work... Adam Bishop (talk) 20:14, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, all. 2602:252:D13:6D70:258E:2FDC:D3C8:55C9 (talk) 15:40, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

dictatress

WERE there dictatress?--87.7.180.212 (talk) 16:05, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Yup. --Jayron32 16:14, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I like the form "dictatrix", and its plural "dictátrices". -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:18, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Hm, "dictatrix" was lacking from the list of -rix words on wiktionary [1], but I added it by putting a suffix template on the dictatrix page at wiktionary. The category is surely lacking a few others, so as a fellow enthusiast, perhaps you'd care to help fill out the list :) SemanticMantis (talk) 21:08, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

There was Jezebel.—Wavelength (talk) 21:29, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

You might (or might not) be interested to know that "dictatress" has been in use in the English language since 1677, and "dictatrix" since 1623. Dbfirs 21:40, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I am. Is this from OED? Do they give the actual sentences or at least references for those first occurrences? Just curious who was worried about dictatresses/dictatrices (dictatrixes?) in the 17th c. Contact Basemetal here 05:41, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

"Dictatrix, a woman commanding things to be don" ([2]). More often in literature in the figurative it seems. Only about 450 years later the introduction of the word "macho" in the discussion would be making the score even! (Pig alone seem to have never achieved it [3]. )--Askedonty (talk) 07:16, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Looks like the first 1623 occurrence of "dictatrix" is as a lemma in a dictionary. There's no guarantee that the term was really already in use. It is suspicious that it occurs as a dictionary lemma before it occurs in a real text. Is the word "dictatrix" ever used in Latin? If used in Latin, it could only mean a dictator's wife or be used metaphorically, since women were not eligible to become dictator, consul, praetor, etc.Contact Basemetal here 09:38, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes, you are correct that the 1623 mention is from another dictionary. The first cited actual usage in the OED is " The Church of Rome which is the great dictatrix of dogmaticall resolutions ..." from Theologia eklektike by Jeremy Taylor, Bishop of Down and Connor in 1647. Byron and Scott used dictatress in 1809 and 1827 respectively. Dbfirs 19:08, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

There it sounds as if dictator/dictatrix is used as "someone who dictates", not in the modern sense of a supreme political ruler. Contact Basemetal here 19:29, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

In the Western Empire certainly (which of course was the Latin speaking half), but look to Ulpia Severina as a possible exception to those rules. Also, the Eastern (Greek-speaking) half of the Roman Empire certainly had women hold important political offices in their own right, i.e. Irene of Athens, Zoë Porphyrogenita and her sister Theodora Porphyrogenita. --Jayron32 14:05, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

The Roman playwright Plautus used the word "dictatrix" in one of his comedies, but as a joke. Still, that means it was apparently a recognizable word even in pre-imperial Latin. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:36, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

That would fall under the metaphorical use I suggested. I don't think Roman emperors had dictator imperium. In fact I think they only had 12 lictors, just like the consuls. The last dictator was the first C. Julius Caesar. Contact Basemetal here 17:23, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

December 16

What's the name of this logical fallacy?

When someone from the perspective of the alternative medicine claims that mainstream medicine does not work, and cites some medical errors.--Scicurious (talk) 02:25, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

This is not a logical fallacy but an informal fallacy known as hasty generalization. --Jayron32 02:42, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Cherry-picking data is a cornerstone of conspiracy theories. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:02, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Good call, Cherry picking (fallacy) is the relevant article, a subcategory of the hasty generalization. Of course, cherry picking has a sense of "intent to deceive" to it; where as the other doesn't. --Jayron32 12:50, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

It could be intent to deceive, or it could be sincere but wrongheaded. I recall in the Apollo Hoax debate here some years ago, the circular reasoning used by the Hoax believers: That these little tidbits of what they considered "proof" that the government lied, had rational explanations; and that those explanations were unacceptable, because they came from the government, and the government lied. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:01, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

That's a different fallacy. Cherry picking is an informal fallacy, that is one based on incorrect information; not on logic, which is the way information is used to prove or disprove a proposition. Circular reasoning is different; it is an actual logical fallacy (or more properly a formal fallacy), which is based on misuse of logic; that is it doesn't depend on the information but rather on the process used to connect the information to a conclusion. The confusion between informal and logical fallacies is common (the OP has made it twice now in consecutive days). The best way to explain the difference is that a logical fallacy is an error in process, but an informal fallacy is an error in input. There are two ways one can reach an unsound conclusion: One can start with good information, but misuse the processes necessary to draw the conclusion (that's a logical fallacy), or one can use sound logic, but starting with bad information leads to bad results (that's an informal fallacy). From the Wikipedia article titled formal fallacy: "A formal fallacy is contrasted with an informal fallacy, which may have a valid logical form and yet be unsound because one or more premises are false." --Jayron32 13:19, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Informal fallacy: All men are alive. Socrates is a man. Therefore, Socrates is alive. If you grant the premises, the conclusion is obvious; we get a bad conclusion because the premises are bad. A different formal fallacy: All women are alive. Socrates is not a woman. Therefore, Socrates is not alive. A good conclusion, but bad logic, because if you insert the name of a living man, you'll get two correct premises, but your conclusion will be wrong. Nyttend (talk) 17:32, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

There's a bit of nirvana fallacy as well, since every human endeavor ever has involved errors. "Errors happen" is meaningless information. What is important is the rate and seriousness of errors and how they compare with the benefits. --71.119.131.184 (talk) 13:49, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

To break this down. There are two statements that almost everyone can agree on:

• Mainstream medicine improves life for some people, fails to cure others and makes some worse.
• Alternative medicine improves life some people, fails to cure others and makes some worse.

At this point, logic fails us and we have to resort to statistics in order to distinguish which of the two should be used. What percentage of people are cured by each approach? What percentage experience no benefits? What percentage are made worse by the treatment?

The logical failing is that logic should not be employed in an area better suited to statistical analysis.

In statistics, this is a case of "the plural of anecdote is not data" and "correlation is not causation". SteveBaker (talk) 17:24, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Hawaiian Royal at British Coronation

In 1911, Abigail Campbell Kawānanakoa, the widow of Prince David Kawānanakoa but an American citizen by law, was invited to attend the coronation of George V because of her royal connections (news story here). That makes me wonder, during the event did she only attend as a private citizen (with no preferential treatment)? Who decided the guest list for the 1911 coronation? Who sent out invitations and what were the criteria for choosing someone? Besides the obvious heads of states and foreign royals of incumbent world monarchies were other non-reigning/deposed royalties considered? Also can anybody help me find British news coverage of her presence at the coronation?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 06:35, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Here is a source (actually an abstract of a source, but it gives you a title and bibliographic info to work from) which may be helpful for you. --Jayron32 12:45, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

The guest list at a coronation is truly immense, I haven't been able to find a figure for 1911, but there were 8,000 in the Abbey in 1902, all by invitation. Some idea of the list can be gained from this list of the 1911 "Procession of Royal Representatives, Royal Guests and their Suits", followed by the "Procession of the Princes and Princesses of the Blood Royal". In addition, there were a large number of Governors-General and prime ministers of the Dominions, colonial and Indian princes and rulers and colonial governors who took part in the procession through London on the next day. I suspect that your ex-princess was not very notable by comparison, but then there's not a huge volume of information on the web about the 1911 coronation - I'm trying to put an article together but struggling a bit.

As to who decided on the guest list, there was a Coronation Committee, [4] which was chaired by the Earl Marshal, but I suspect that they would have been advised on this issue by the mandarins at the Foreign Office. Alansplodge (talk) 16:59, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Would any US citizens be considered on that list? The notability in Kawananakoa's case to the American audience was because she was a US citizen and a former royal at the same time, but I don't know if the claims on the newspaper articles about her being the only American invited was true or not. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 07:23, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

According to this contemporary news article, there was an official delegation from the United States as well as many others. Hack (talk) 09:44, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Dates of Pastor Jack Graham degrees and appointments do not fit?

According to research on Pastor Jack Graham I am finding conflicting information on his degrees and his appointments as a pastor. How can he be studying in one place and pastor in another place at the same time? I found this information from 1970 to 1977 on Wikipedia. This was very confusing to me? Could you clear this up, please? Thank you for your time. Sincerely, crazy old lady — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FCC8:8444:1C00:B8CA:41EF:7A84:16C3 (talk) 15:46, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Hi, please don't leave spaces before paragraphs as it messes up the way your text is displayed. Anyway I take it you're referring to Jack Graham (pastor)? If so, I don't quite see the conflict you refer to in the early period. The article says:

In 1970, at the age of twenty, he was ordained pastor of his first church, married and halfway through Hardin-Simmons University in Abilene, Texas, where he earned a Bachelor of Science degree with honors.

and

Graham began his ministry as pastor of East Side Baptist in Cross Plains in Callahan County, Texas (1970–1971). Following his associate pastorate at Sagamore Hill Baptist Church (1972–1975)

As I understand US universities, per Academic term and other stuff I've read before, they generally start in September or perhaps August. And most degrees like the Bachelor of Science take 4 years for completion for a full time student. So if he was halfway through his undergraduate university study in 1970, this would suggest he was either in the end of the second year, or beginning of his third year. So he should have finished his study by August 1972. (Perhaps August 1971 if halfway was use more loosely and he's actually in the middle of his third year early in 1971. Or if he started at a different time then is the norm.)

Checking our article on Callahan County, Texas, it says it's in Abilene, Texas Metropolitan Statistical Area where the university is located. I haven't checked the precise locations of each one, but it sounds like it's easily possible these aren't that far from each other, so aren't really different places. So being the pastor at the church while studying full time at the university was probably possible if the demands on him as pastor weren't too high.

Next our article also says:

By 1976, he and his wife, Deb, had one son, and Graham was associate pastor of Sagamore Hill Baptist Church in Fort Worth, pastored by G. Fred Swank.[2] That year he also completed work for a Master of Divinity degree with honors from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth. Four more years went by, and Graham received a Doctor of Ministry degree in “Church and Proclamation.”

and

Following his associate pastorate at Sagamore Hill Baptist Church (1972–1975), he went on to pastor First Baptist Church in Hobart, Oklahoma (1975–1978), First Baptist Church in Duncan, Oklahoma (1978–1981)

This is a bit more confusing as the years are a different (one implies he was still at Sagamore in 1976 whereas the other says he had already left). The Master if Divinity degree is also a bit confusing, although it's not clear what this entailed, it's possible it was done off campus particularly if it was primarily a research degree. Likewise precisely where he received his Doctor of Ministry degree from isn't clear, although even if it were Fort Worth, as I presume it was a research doctorate it may have been completely off campus. So this later section could do with some work, but it's only from 1975 onwards that the confusion begins although it may simply be that it should be 1976 rather than 1975 or vice versa.

Nil Einne (talk) 16:17, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Stats for (in)effective use of pepper spray in self defence

Amazon has apparently been illegally selling pepper spray and stun guns in the UK. http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/dec/16/amazoncouk-banned-dangerous-weapons-found-sale There is an argument going on in the comments section of the linked news report, between those who think these items should be legal available for use in self defence, and those who say they would be useless because any prospective attacker would have them too and would have the element of surprise. Are there any actual (reliable) statistics for how these items are used in countries where they are legal? E.g. how often do people successfully use them in self defence, vs. how often they are used offensively? Iapetus (talk) 16:09, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Does this help any? --Jayron32 16:35, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

That study reports on the changes to rates of injuries to officers, of injuries to suspects, and of excessive force complaints following the introduction of pepper spray into three North Carolina police forces. I suspect that Wardog was more interested in its effectiveness as a self defense tool for the average civilian. -- ToE 03:42, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Anecdotally, that Uber driver used it pretty effectively on his violent passenger, in a news story from a few weeks or months ago. It would seem that, whatever the situation, whoever shoots first has the strategic advantage. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:43, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Anecdote =/= data. That is, there is no meaningful way to extrapolate any universal principles from one story. Anecdotes should not be used to make statements about general trends or greater truths. --Jayron32 13:06, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Soytenly. The OP asked "how often do people successfully use them in self defence?" and we know the answer is at least "One". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:21, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

How does the euro affect economic growth?

(1) The euro removes the cost of doing business across currencies (good for growth) (2) The euro doesn't allow interest rates to be finely tuned for every country (bad for growth) Which of these effects is stronger? Is GDP growth in the eurozone higher or lower because of the euro?--88.81.124.1 (talk) 17:03, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Euro#Economics contains much of the data you would need to draw your own conclusions. --Jayron32 18:19, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Are you interested in the effects of euro adoption across the entire eurozone, or in a particular country? For the new adopters, such as Lithuania (Lithuania and the euro) and Bulgaria (see Bulgaria and the euro), adoption is estimated to boost GDP in the long term. See [5], [6]. Neutrality^talk 19:39, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

It might be worth reconsidering if the second part of the assumption -- that interest rates can be finely tuned for an economy, so as to benefit growth -- is correct. While there is ample evidence in some countries, others have found that an insufficiently independent central bank is not necessarily an asset to growth. DOR (HK) (talk) 11:31, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Which flag did Transnistria use between 1990 and 2000?

The post-2000 flag of Transnistria.

Hello,

Article Flag of Transnistria states that the current flag was adopted in 2000, using a version of the 1952-1990 flag used by the Moldavian SSR. Transnistria split from Moldova in 1990.

The article does not mention which flag was used between 1990 and 2000. Is anyone able to put this information in the article? Answers welcome at Talk:Flag of Transnistria#1990-2000 flag. (Copied from the talk page of Wikipedia:WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology by Skogsvandraren (talk) 18:15, 16 December 2015 (UTC))

This 1999 book and this 1992 newspaper article both refer to a green and red flag used after 1992.184.147.121.46 (talk) 03:32, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Flags of the World _ Dniestr Republic (Moldova) - Trans-Dniester Moldavian Republic / Pridnestrovskaia Moldavskaia Respublika has quite a detailed article comprising a number of posts by editors and quotes from various sources. A note added before January 1997 says "The flag of the Dniestr Republic is identical to that of the old Moldavian SSR." A note added in November 2000 says; "A flag was adopted officially on 25 July 2000 (but before several variants were in use)." As the new Transnistria flag and the Maldovan SSR flag are very similar, I expect that the "several variants" weren't too dissimilar either. Alansplodge (talk) 09:04, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Bertrand Russell War Crimes Tribunal on Vietnam War 1967

2602:306:C40D:D670:A6:6E45:4FDF:9EAE (talk) 18:48, 16 December 2015 (UTC) I have received two articles from Wikipedia about the above subject. I was a Navy pilot during the Vietnam War, was shot down, captured and incarcerated at the Hanoi Hilton for more than six years. I am currently writing a book about my life. A POW friend during his initial interrogation when asked the names of his squadron mates at the urging of his interrogators said many of his mates were against the war and proceeded to name some lessor known movie actors like Tom Ewell (sp). It was purported that the North Vietnamese brought this up at the Tribunal . The NVN were embarrassed when it was revealed that they had been hoodwinked. Needless to say the POW paid the price when the NVN returned to Hanoi. I have heard that some reporter possibly from the NY Times in the audience, after enduring a boring assignment sat up when he heard the NVN pitch and wrote an article about it.

Can you find any evidence that the incident took place ? Wikipedia has been very helpful to my task, many thanks.

Allen C Brady

Let's begin by nailing down Tom Ewell and Russell Tribunal - we have articles on these... what we want of course is the raw transcript or video of the proceeding. It looks like the Russell Foundation is here, but I'm not seeing what I want at first glance. This links to the transcript of a lecture, not the proceeding, unfortunately... I expect for someone of your distinction either of these ought help with research... but we certainly should look further... Oh, also, I suggest you should consider registering an account. There's a feature that if you have User:Allen C Brady set up as your account, someone can write "{{re|Allen C Brady}}" in a discussion like this and you'll get a notification of it whenever you next log in. That way you can raise various topics and know you didn't miss anything before they were archived. And of course Wikipedia is lusting for whatever scraps of non-copyrighted Army source material or photos you've taken of historic events that you might be willing to donate. :) Oh wait, this looks more promising: [7] Does that look like I'm on the right track? (I still don't like the 'selected and edited' bit) Wnt (talk) 22:48, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

ART - TRANSLUCENT PAINTINGS ON THIN LAYERS OF ELEPHANT TUSKS OR ANIMAL BONES

WHEN IN INDIA I PURCHASED A PAINTING OF A "A GOD OF LOVE" AND WAS TOLD IT WAS ON A THIN LAYER OF ANIMAL BONE AND THAT IN THE PAST THESE HAD BEEN ON THIN LAYERS OF ELEPHANT BONES. I CANNOT FIND ANY DESCRIPTION OF THIS TYPE OF ART — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.75.227.100 (talk) 20:30, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Please do not type in all capital letters. It is the equivalent of screaming at people, and is seen as rude when you do so. Wikipedia has an outline article titled List of artistic media which may be a start for your research. --Jayron32 23:14, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Please do not complain about people who type in all capital letters. Doing so is seen as intolerant, petty, and pointless... Wnt (talk) 12:49, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

By whom? Use of the passive when the active would do better is seen as ... wait ...  :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 10:11, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

I guess by Wnt, but few other people. Considering that many people have changed their behaviour when informed of such simple netequitte; and that in a lot of the internet including on wikipedia and including this reference desk, typing in all caps is a good way to ensure plenty of people ignore you post (in some places in the internet it may even encourage deletion), it's very weird to say it's pointless. Far more intolerant, petty and pointless is making dumb complaints about people offering simple resonable advice on how to ensure people actually read your comments or question. Of course, if people actually choose to write in all caps despite knowing the consequences, that's their choice, but the evidence strongly suggests the majority of people doing so are simply ignorant of the consequences not intentionally doing so. Nil Einne (talk) 08:07, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

It's just miniature painting on ivory. Couldn't find anything in WP, or elsewhere for that matter. Here's something but it's pretty old. Contact Basemetal here 02:02, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

There's a brief mention at Portrait_miniature#Materials, although it's only talking about European painting.184.147.121.46 (talk) 03:13, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Incidentally the "god of love" you've got there is probably (I can't be sure of course since I haven't seen your painting; it'd be great if you could upload a picture of your painting so we could see it) "the" God of Love, namely kAmadevaH who was supposedly incinerated by zivaH (I'm using Harvard-Kyoto here because I'm too lazy to go look for the standard transliteration characters). That's why kAmadevaH is said to be "without a body" (an-aNgaH). Nonetheless he is pictured in numerous paintings (presumably his likeness before he was incinerated?). One of his typical attributes is that he has a bow made of sugarcane whose string is a line of honeybees. The arrows are various kinds of fragrant flowers. His vAhanam is a parrot whose name I forget. Contact Basemetal here 09:55, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Kāmadeva, Śiva, an-aṅga. I prefer to use the combining stem rather than include the explicitly nominative ending –ḥ, particularly when (as in the case of Śiva above) the noun is not used nominatively. —Tamfang (talk) 08:41, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Are you saying the noun Śivaḥ, the name of the god, is not used in the nominative? There are millions of occurrences of Śivaḥ (and its numerous synonyms) being used in the nominative. But maybe I've completely misunderstood what you were saying.

This said, regarding the use of the stem instead of the nominative when referring to Sanskrit nouns in English, you certainly are in the majority. And noun headwords in all Sanskrit-English dictionaries I am aware of are indeed stems rather than nominatives. Nevertheless there are numerous reasons why the minority practice is preferable. Here are four: 1. the stem often violates Sanskrit phonological rules for the allowed finals so if you keep using stems you become accustomed to uttering sequences of sounds which are in fact impossible in Sanskrit 2. this practice is at odds with the common practice in all other languages (e.g. in Latin it would be equivalent to using "domino" for "dominus", "puero" for "puer", "urb" for "urbs" etc.) 3. using its nominative (or some other casual form if needed) when referring to a noun is the uniform practice of grammatical literature written in Sanskrit 4. for the stems in a, which make up something like three quarters of all nouns in the Sanskrit language, learning the nominative helps immediately remember if the word is masculine or neuter whereas if you only learn its stem you can't tell, you have to learn that in addition.

Contact Basemetal here 11:23, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm saying that the noun in the phrase incinerated by Śiva is not nominative. — And I grumble about the common usage in Latin borrowings too, when the nominative singular is explicitly marked with –s. —Tamfang (talk) 22:03, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

December 17

longest streetcar routes in world

TTC's 501 Queen streetcar route is the longest in North America but what about in the whole world? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.29.35.129 (talk) 04:59, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

The Coast Tram in Belgium. --Wrongfilter (talk) 08:55, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Belgium is quite a place for trams (streetcars); the Brussels Pre-metro is a weird system where the trams run in tunnels and stop at metro stations. When I visited in the late 1990s, it was a bit of a puzzle, because the trams were only marked with a number and when one arrived at the station, you had to run over to a very complicated map to find out where it was going. I'm sure information technology has moved on since then. Alansplodge (talk) 11:23, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Here's one seen in a pre-metro station in 2005, showing the destination endpoint Esplanade as well as the route number. A nice technique that most cities don't use is that the color seen on the rollsign, here light blue, matches the color used for this route on the system map (you'll find Esplanade just left of center, near the top edge of the map, and the route goes south from there). Similarly with the brown color on this route, which you won't find on the map since it is no longer operated. Unfortunately the STIB has abandoned this helpful practice, I suppose for cost reasons, for newer rolling stock on the system, which all has the same orange LED destination signs. --76.69.45.64 (talk) 05:45, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Damn! I never cottoned on to the colour code. Alansplodge (talk) 08:51, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

What made Greek/Ancient Greek such a major influence/factor on modern languages ???

What made Greek/Ancient Greek such a major influence/factor on modern languages ???

Even languages far different from their language, like all the Germanic languages for instance, have lots and lots and lots of words and vocabulary coming from the Greek language. I suspect even many languages which originate from other continents will be quite influenced by Greek. All these scientific words, as well as the names of so many animals and plants etc. If you look up the origins of a word, you'll so often find it stems from Greek. Why, and how ??

I know Greece supposedly raised many a philosopher and forward-thinker with theories and ideas, and which had a natural curiosity to match. They'd no doubt put words/names on many things, possibly before others had come so far, but it can't be that simple and it don't really explain why and how. The language's legacy is so widespread and such a big part of our every-day speech.

How and why did it come to be, to such a great extent ?

2A02:FE0:C711:5C41:BDE4:E107:4A9A:F02C (talk) 12:59, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

See Eastern Roman Empire. --Jayron32 13:03, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

And even before the empire split, Greece was an especially valued part of the Roman Empire (see Roman Greece) and the countries were close enough that Roman and Greek culture blended into one Greco-Roman culture. Roman writers enjoyed and quoted Greek philosophers and poets (much of what we know of the Greek-speaking Sappho for instance came to us via Latin authors) and this helped establish Greek as a respectable language to do intelligent things in. This was especially important in the Middle Ages – if you wrote in your own language, no-one outside your borders would understand you (nor would many inside it, before spelling reform and the printing press standardized the language) but if you used the classical languages of Latin or Greek, most educated Europeans would. Smurrayinchester 14:19, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, Greek culture was so influential on Roman culture that they even rewrote their own origin story to include explicit connection to the earlier Greek civilization, see The Aeneid, which makes the Homeric epics into the prequel for the Romulus and Remus story. --Jayron32 14:37, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

The story of Aeneas and of the Trojan origins of Rome was probably borrowed from the Etruscans: see this. There's also a little at Etruscan origins (skip the first paragraph). In fact much of Greek culture came at first to Rome through the Etruscan civilization. Contact Basemetal here 15:21, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Interesting. Thank you! --Jayron32 16:27, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Basically because of Alexander the Great's conquests. Even though his empire fell apart after his short reign, most of the territory he conquered remained under Greek rule for some time. In this Hellenistic period, the Greek language and culture became dominant in a large area, and Koine Greek became the lingua franca of much of the civilized world, which persisted even after some of these regions were conquered by the Romans. - Lindert (talk) 14:32, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Indeed. Also not to be ignored in the influence on future Western civilization is that Language of the New Testament was Koine Greek, greatly influencing the status of that language among Western academics (who were mostly Churchmen for much of the early middle ages anyways). The Koine Greek New Testament and the Vulgate translation by St. Jerome both had a profound impact on the status of Greek and Latin in Academic settings in Western Europe. --Jayron32 14:37, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

When did European languages start using Greek lexical elements (along with Latin lexical elements) to produce new words in science, etc. (e.g. "astrophysics", "chromatography", etc.)? I'm of course not talking of Greek words inherited directly from Greek or through Latin, which were already in use in classical times (e.g. in their Latin forms "philosophia", "historia", "musica"). Was this already happening in medieval Latin? Or did that practice only start in the 15th c. and 16th c. when the West started "relearning" Ancient Greek? Contact Basemetal here 15:53, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

According to Classical compound, "English began incorporating many of these words in the sixteenth century; geography first appeared in an English text in 1535." Smurrayinchester 08:42, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Medieval Latin did not really use a lot of Greek words, unless the author was unusually well-educated - they tended not to learn Greek in the Middle Ages (when they start to learn Greek again, that's one definition of the beginning of the Renaissance). Or, they were using classical dictionaries or wordlists of Greek words, just to sound fancy, kind of as a game, without taking any consideration of meaning or context. That was popular in Hiberno-Latin with Irish monks. Adam Bishop (talk) 15:31, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your time, and for your answers. :) 2A02:FE0:C711:5C41:BDE4:E107:4A9A:F02C (talk) 16:23, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

travel to eurape

hi

i am living syrian near boarder lebanon

my family, cousin to leave. please. the best way escape route syrian eurape, germany or safety to country here we canott be stay here long danger

thanks you please — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.141.221.102 (talk) 16:04, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm afraid we can't advise you on the best route. You can read the Wikipedia article titled European migrant crisis which has some information on common routes taken by people in your situation. This webpage also shows common routes taken, though we cannot recommend which is best or safest at any time, at least its some data on routes others are using. --Jayron32 16:26, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Maybe you can contact Pro Asyl and ask them. Their English site is here. To contact them it is probably best to use email: proasyl@proasyl.de. But if you are truly in imminent danger the best is probably to just go to Lebanon (even though Lebanon is already swamped with Syrian refugees) since you say you are close to the border. Contact Basemetal here 16:43, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Why isn't there much information about the Angles?

But there's a lot more information about the Saxons? ScienceApe (talk) 18:35, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

History is written by the victors. The Saxons established a hegemony throughout central Europe, with many important Saxon groups and leaders taking prominent leadership roles in the emerging German nation. The Angles never did so. The Saxons became one of the Stem Duchies of the German kingdom, and the noble house of Saxony became one of the most prolific in Germany. You can start reading about this history at Duchy of Saxony and follow information from there. The Angles never got established as a major political force, and were largely absorbed by other groups, mostly the Saxons. Most of the smaller Germanic tribes were consolidated into one of the larger Germanic groups during the early middle ages, either the Saxons or the Franks, the Bavarians or the Swabians/Allemani, i.e. the Stem Duchies. --Jayron32 19:27, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Then wouldn't the term, Anglo-Saxons be a misnomer since the Angle contribution to these people would be very minor, especially since the Saxons absorbed other smaller tribes equally as much as the Angles as you pointed out? ScienceApe (talk) 19:36, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

The Angles were a distinct group during the Anglo-Saxon settlement of Britain, which is why they get mentioned separately there. There was also a third group, the Jutes, which were also involved in the Germanic settlements of England; their name gets left out of the term "Anglo-Saxon", but Bede lists them among the three invading groups, they settled in Kent. The Jutes were later absorbed by the Danes; their name lives on in Jutland. The Anglo-Saxon settlement mostly occurred during middle 400s to middle 700s; the Stem Duchies didn't really coalesce until the end of that period. --Jayron32 19:42, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm a little confused. So are you saying that Anglo-Saxons are not comprised of Angles at all? ScienceApe (talk) 20:01, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

No, the opposite. In the middle 400s, when the Anglo-Saxon settlement began, the Angles where a distinct group. By the middle 700s when the Stem Duchies were forming, they were not. 300 years is a long damn time. You've made the mistake of assuming all of history happened simultaneously. It's a common problem when people look back at the past. When they settled England, they were absolutely a distinct group. They disappeared as a distinct group some time later. --Jayron32 20:04, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

However, it wasn't all bad for the Angles, we ended up calling ourselves English rather than Saxonish, although the Welsh and the Scots still call us that. Alansplodge (talk) 08:47, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

As Richard Armour put it, the Saxons knew all the Angles. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:05, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Another way to put it: the Saxons who participated in the Anglo-Saxon migration were cousins of some of the ancestors of the Saxons who became prominent in later German history, but one shouldn't equate them. —Tamfang (talk) 08:44, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Note also the former were speakers of North Sea West Germanic whereas the latter were speakers of a form of Continental West Germanic. Another interesting observation is that Denmark used to be in the West Germanic area when the invasion of Britain took place and only later became part of the North Germanic area. Contact Basemetal here 11:40, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

One reason that the Angles may get neglected in the history of England is that while the Saxons used that tribal name for each of their kingdoms (Essex, Sussex, Wessex) the Angles didn't. Only the name East Anglia reveals its origin - but the much larger and more important kingdoms of Mercia and Northumbria were also founded by Angles. Of the seven kingdoms of the Heptarchy three were Angle, and three were Saxon (with Kent being Jutish in origin) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.80.86.201 (talk) 15:47, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

There's also the issue that the major Saxon kingdoms (well, Wessex) largely survived the Danish invasions (excepting, of course, the times when they didn't), while the more easterly Anglian kingdoms were largely subsumed by the Danelaw, with only rump states left of Mercia and Northumbria. Of course, by that point in history (the 800s-900s, now almost half a millenium later than the initial Anglo-Saxon-Jutish settlements) the distinctions between Angles and Saxons was entirely inconsequential. That is, the ethnic distinctions that would have made Angles and Saxons a distinct people in the 450s when they settled England were meaningless by the 850s; there was instead by then a single "Anglo-Saxon" ethnicity (by now also quite distinct from the Continental "Saxon" ethnicity), as there arose a distinct "English" national identity, see for example Alfred the Great's unified plan for English-language education for the whole of his realm. By the early 900s, kings formally dropped the pretense even of "Anglo-Saxon" or "Angles and Saxons" (a formalism which had been maintained long after the groups had lost their individual identity) and adopted titles that indicated cultural unity, such as the title "Rex Anglorum" (king of The English) which was first adopted by Æthelstan (though how much he used the style is disputed a bit). Certainly by the time his brother Edmund I became King, the title "Anglorum rex" was fully in use. Later the style changed to "King of England", especially when used by foreign dynasts (such as Cnut and William I).

As a sidebar to all of this, it's interesting that Modern English, descended (with much modification and absorbtion of other elements) from the speech of the period in question, is most closely related not to the continental descendants of the Saxon, Angle or Jutish dialects/languages, but to Frisian.

I recall an exercise not too long ago where Eddie Izzard learned some Old English and then visited the Frisian Islands, where he was able to converse successfully with locals by using it (he bought a cow).

I've seen conjectures that at the time of the original invasions/migrations, the speakers of those related but perhaps not mutually intelligible tongues used Frisian as a lingua franca because Frisians, who had the most extensive coastline in the area, were coastal traders who came into contact with everybody else. (See also Ingvaeonic languages.) {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 185.74.232.130 (talk) 18:07, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

The Ingvaeonic grouping postulates Low German is closer to Anglo-Frisian than to Dutch. That seems to go against Dutch, Low German and High German forming a single continuous dialect area, with Frisian not being part of it. Contact Basemetal here 20:44, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Regarding Eddie Izzard I am skeptical, but judge for yourself. Regarding Frisians, I don't know why, but German people think East Frisians (who no longer speak a Frisian language) are particularly dim. The East Frisian jokes are the German equivalent to Polish jokes. Contact Basemetal here 21:04, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

December 18

Shell Shock during WW1.

When troops had shell shock on the actual front line, how did it effect these troops? Did it alter their perceptions of the battlefield? --Vïtapalast (talk) 11:38, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Have you read our article shell shock (and its more modern diagnosis, post-traumatic stress disorder)? Shell shock manifested very differently in different people, but about 10% suffered Conversion disorder, which is when severe stress affects the senses. The article also mentions dizziness and hypersensitivity to noise, both of which would be severely disorienting and frightening on a battlefield. Smurrayinchester 11:59, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Some disturbing film exists of extreme manifestations of this disorder; see - British Pathé Shell Shock Victims. Alansplodge (talk) 13:49, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Between my wife and I, we had four biogical uncles who served in World War II. Two of my mother's brothers, and two of her mothers's brothers. One of my uncles and one of hers were killed, her uncle after 2-1/2 years in a Japanese POW camp. The two surviving uncles suffered from "shell shock" which interfered with normal family relationships for decades. War is hell. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 05:52, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Note that "shell shock" included both post-traumatic stress disorder and concussion/closed head injuries. As we know from recent American football studies, the latter can also have severe consequences, both physical and psychological. StuRat (talk) 07:18, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

December 19

carpet

There is a photograph with the caption "A meeting of Foreign Ministers about the situation in Syria is pictured at the Palace Hotel in the Manhattan borough of New York December 18, 2015" but I can't find an image of the pictured flooring using Google Image search. I am guessing is is a carpet. It seems so extraordinary that there would be an image of it online. Can anybody find it? Bus stop (talk) 02:11, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

[8] --164.215.104.173 (talk) 02:23, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that is it. Thanks. The design looks so much larger in the Reuters photograph. Bus stop (talk) 02:28, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Well, neither picture shows the whole carpet, so you may be seeing different parts of it. Possibly a similar pattern occurs in more than one place in more than one size. Also, note that the original photo seems to have been taken with a wide-angle lens, which somewhat exaggerates the size of things nearest the camera.

Here are two other pictures of the hotel's Villard Ballroom. On page 4 of this PDF document you can see a large table partly covering the central design feature from the original photo. And again in this photo a large table is partly covering that feature. That last table looks as if it would fill most of the space inside the U-shaped tables of the original photo. --76.69.45.64 (talk) 10:34, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Here is a pretty good picture of it. The original link I posted above no longer works. Bus stop (talk) 12:58, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

• By the way, notice the bit that reads &w=976 within that URL. On some news media web sites, this is used to specify how wide you want the picture to be. If you trim it out of the URL, often you get a higher-resolution version. That works with this one. --76.69.45.64 (talk) 05:09, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Wow. That is wonderful. Thank you. I'm glad I started this thread. I learned something. Bus stop (talk) 10:49, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Conference rooms I've been in are typically tight-weave carpeting. Tile or other hard surfaces tend to exaggerate noise and are less "cozy" anyway. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:08, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

They should sit on the carpet to maximally enhance conviviality. Bus stop (talk) 20:51, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Or to enhance pain, maybe. Tight weave carpet on a concrete floor would be even less comfortable than typical conference room chairs. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:46, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Suspending the whole thing on a trampoline might bring about whirled peas. Bus stop (talk) 02:22, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

And the boy gets a cigar! ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:39, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

South Korea: presidential or semi-presidential regime?

Article South Korea states that it has a presidential regime. But South Korea also has a prime minister. I'd always thought that any regime with both an effective non-ceremonial president elected through a general popular vote and a prime minister with a cabinet that comes out of parliamentary elections (e.g. France, Russia, etc.) is by definition semi-presidential. Wouldn't that make South Korea a semi-presidential system? If not, could anyone point to another presidential regime with a prime minister? And another thing: article Turkey says that it is a parliamentary system. But as far as I can tell it also fulfills the definition of a semi-presidential regime. Have I misunderstood something? Contact Basemetal here 10:08, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Turkey was a parliamentary system until recently, with very limited powers accorded its president. However, constitutional changes introduced in 2015 at the behest of Recep Tayyip Erdoğan after his election as president have changed the nature of the regime, making it semi-presidential. Note that in the past, both Turgut Özal and Suleyman Demirel exercised significant power out of the presidential seat in spite of the regime being parliamentary in name. --Xuxl (talk) 10:33, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

The Republic of Korea is a presidential representative democracy, as per our article. The president exercises executive power, the National Assembly and the government exercise legislative power and the Supreme Court and subordinate entities exercise judicial power. The President appoints the Prime Minister, with the approval of the National Assembly. In my experience, the main job of the Prime Minister is to resign, so as to accept responsibility for any embarrassment that might befall the President. DOR (HK) (talk) 11:44, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

That is exactly how Vth Republic France works and that is (according to WP) a semi-presidential regime. Contact Basemetal here 13:18, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that is exactly how Vth Republic France works, and to the question "France, presidential or semi-presidential regime?", the French (who probably don't read WP carefully enough) would without hesitation answer "presidential". Akseli9 (talk) 14:46, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

And yet it was a French political scientist, Maurice Duverger, who came up with the concept of régime semi-présidentiel and applied it to the French Cinquième République (Maurice Duverger, Le système politique français, PUF, 1970). See fr:Régime semi-présidentiel. Contact Basemetal here 15:55, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Citizens From Countries That Need Visas To Travel v Using Ethnic Profiling To Prevent Crime - Explain The Difference?

The passport that my wife holds, requires a visa to travel to most countries on earth. I am from a European country and hardly ever require a visa. She finds this completely unfair, and whilst I do sympathise with her, she understands that as her country is extremely poor and corrupt, a lot of it's citizens would like to leave and never come back.

But isn't this just the same as ethnic profiling to prevent crime/terrorism?

She has travelled widely with me and has always returned to her country (we both live there). Obviously we can go through the process of applying for a visas, but this is extremely troublesome and expensive. However, over time as she has visited more and more countries, the application process becomes a lot easier

But surely what foreign governments are doing is just a bigger version of ethnic profiling? Basically, they are saying either:

• The people in your country are generally very poor, if we didn't check you out in advance, you might not come back

OR

• We have noticed in the past some people from your country have overstayed, therefore you might overstay as well

So lets just substitute a couple of words, and then allow the police to use this logic instead of the border guards:

• The people of your ethnicity in this country are generally very poor, therefore you might be tempted to commit crime

• We have noticed in the past that people of your ethnicity are more likely to commit crime, therefore you might commit crime

Now of course, you can say that citizenship does not equal ethnicity, however, in many examples (especially in the developing world) this is actually true

In this day and age of political correctness, I'm amazed that the whole visa system hasn't be targeted as surely it is one of the last bastions of legal discrimination

However, if on the other hand, the visa system does work, then surely ethnic profiling should be adopted by police forces all around the world? Jaseywasey (talk) 17:46, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Please don't post long political scenarios and then ask for comment on various arguments you have made. Please feel free to add specific requests for factual material. μηδείς (talk) 17:53, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Unhatted because Medeis does have a point but there is further information for the questioner. The further information is that visa requirements are often on a tit-for-tat basis. So, coming from the UK, I need a visa to go to Cambodia, but at the same time a Cambodian needs a visa to come to the UK. By contrast a citizen of Vietnam doesn't need a visa for Cambodia, and a citizen of Cambodia doesn't need one for Vietnam. You could say that there should be more such arrangements, and lots of people would agree. If you look right across the world, there has been a fair amount of loosening up, mainly for tourism purposes, but also for cross-border work and migration for work. Your post assumes that visa-free travel is the default and then countries impose visa requirements for specific reasons. It's the other way round, really. Visas were required more or less everywhere, but the requirements are being dropped. Itsmejudith (talk) 18:28, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Nations have the right to decide who comes in and who doesn't, and as Judith indicates, those rules vary for and about each country. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:36, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

If nations have the right to decide who comes in and who doesn't, what exactly made the ban on Chinese immigration in 1923 or Trump's recent proposal so objectionable? Contact Basemetal here 18:45, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Because they were seen (by some) as racist and arbitrary. But these decisions are enacted by law, meaning they are debated and discussed, both in Congress and in the general public. And if they are objectionable to the rest of the world, it doesn't matter. The rest of the world does not have jurisdiction. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:55, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

The OP's question had a verbose introduction which included unnecessary biographical information, but it was basically a very simple one: Are visa policies which distinguish between different countries a form of ethnic profiling? If yes, what makes it acceptable in this case and not in other cases such as crime prevention? It is a perfectly valid question for the RD in my opinion. Contact Basemetal here 18:45, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

• Reclosing, because while we're bandying about terms like racist, not a single person above has offered a reference or article in response to the OP's rather long argument. μηδείς (talk) 20:14, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Visa (document) has a lot of information about visa requirements. Respondents are pointing out to the OP that the restrictions on people entering countries because of their nationality are different from any proposed restrictions by ethnic/religious criteria. Schengen Agreement and Fortress Europe may also be of interest. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:59, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

I agree that immigration rules are largely ethnic and racial-based, so you can call them racially and ethnically discriminatory. However, in some cases this seems to be a necessary evil. Consider the case of a small, prosperous nation and a large, poor nation. If the small nation allowed everyone in from the poor nation, the numbers would soon overwhelm them, and they would be so outnumbered that their nation would become little more than a colony of the large, poor nation. That is, their culture, language, and eventually even form of government would likely change to match the larger nation. So, laws are passed to prevent this. If the two nations have different racial or ethnic makeups, then those laws will necessarily discriminate in those ways. StuRat (talk) 07:10, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Question (historic racists)

Can you list me some people from the past who were considered by their contemporaries to be far right racist and backwards like people today consider [some politicians] to be? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mikou35464 (talk • contribs) 18:42, 19 December 2015 (UTC) Mikou35464 (talk) 18:43, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Deleting the BLP violations, "far right racist and backwards" covers a lot of ground, and the list could be very long. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:53, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

You might include some pro-slavery politicians in the US prior to the Civil War, who were considered to be racist by at least some of their contemporaries (the abolitionists). John C. Calhoun comes to mind. More recently, those US politicians who opposed civil rights and supported segregation, like George Wallace, might qualify. StuRat (talk) 04:21, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Don't forget the awesomely horrible Cornerstone Speech. Outside of the U.S., one might consider some of the particularly hardcore imperialists like Cecil Rhodes (see Mark Twain's quote in the article). --71.119.131.184 (talk) 04:42, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Also note that "far right" and racist aren't synonymous. Hitler, for example, was about as racist as one can get, but wan't particularly far right, which in Germany would have meant a supporter of restoring the monarchy. StuRat (talk) 04:26, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

I added to your title, to make it actually useful as a title. StuRat (talk) 04:41, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

The original question mentions Donald Trump and Nigel Farage. There was no reason to delete these, as the OP didn't give any judgement on them, merely correctly stated that they are considered racist by (some of) their contemporariness, which is true. They are useful to mention as examples of the kind of people the OP is looking for. Though I must mention that Farage is more centrist in most of his other 'policies'. No BLP problems there, he isn't calling them racists. Fgf10 (talk) 11:35, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for that clarification, I was wondering if he wanted us to give those examples. So having had those examples, I can confidently name UK people like Enoch Powell, Oswald Mosley and John Tyndall (politician). --TammyMoet (talk) 12:09, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Racism isn't always the sole prerogative of the right-wing however; consider Joseph Stalin and his Decossackization programs. Alansplodge (talk) 12:43, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Hitler and Stalin weren't left wing or right wing, they were totalitarians. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:09, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't believe those terms to be mutually exclusive. Stalin at least professed to have left-wing ideas, supporting equality of wealth for all (the Constitution of the Soviet Union actually granted generous rights to all, too bad they just ignored it and did whatever they pleased). However, whether he actually believed that or merely used it as a convenient way to fool the masses is up for debate. StuRat (talk) 18:49, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

How many citizens did Stalin murder? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:05, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

December 20

How would anyone know if they are a beneficiary in a will?

I am not asking for any legal advice. But a curious legal question came to my mind. If you are listed as a beneficiary in someone's will, how would you even know that that's the case? Where, when, and how would you ever receive that information? This is the hypothetical example that came to mind. Let's say we have an elderly parent (who is a widow/er). The parent has only one child, who is alive. The parent hates the child and leaves him/her absolutely nothing in the will. All of the assets of the parent's estate are willed to, let's just say, the American Cancer Society. Let's also say that the assets are $1 million. So, how would the American Cancer Society ever know about this? So, let's say the parent dies. The unscrupulous child goes through the parent's papers, finds the will, and immediately destroys it (and subsequently states that no will exists). Now, all of the assets (the $1 million) will go to the child, as the next of kin. The American Cancer Society has no idea that they are the beneficiary of the will. So, they are not going to raise any questions or red flags. The child will get away with a $1 million fraud, no? Am I missing something? So how do problems like this get prevented? This question refers to the USA, by the way. Thanks. 2602:252:D13:6D70:218B:AF5E:F560:98C6 (talk) 08:05, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

See Probate for our general article: it's the duty of the executors to inform the beneficiaries of a will and ensure they receive their legacies. In a case of intestacy, the courts will appoint an administrator to distribute the estate. In the case you mention, the child would indeed have successfully defrauded the charity - if the testatrix had taken professional advice in drafting the will, and (a) named a trustworthy executor (such as a lawyer, or an official of the charity) and (b) deposited the will with a trustworthy entity (such as a lawyer), rather than leaving it among her personal effects, her wishes would not have been frustrated. Tevildo (talk) 09:16, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

That just begs another question though - how does the lawyer or the executor (with whom the will has been entrusted) know that the person has died? In general, how do hospitals, emergency services, undertakers, etc go about informing the various people who need to know? For example - suppose a life insurance policy exists but the person who is to benefit from it doesn't know it exists to make a claim? I could imagine that they'd be able to find family members and inform them - but lawyers, insurers?? SteveBaker (talk) 17:01, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Which is why, when you make out a will or contract an insurance policy, you should advise a (trustworthy) next-of-kin or friend where the will and other important papers can be found. There have indeed been many cases of unclaimed life insurance payments because no one informed the insurer that the policy holder had died. See Estate planning. --Xuxl (talk) 17:12, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

I should also point out that, in some jurisdictions (particularly in Louisiana, which derives much of its legal system from the French codes), the parent would not have been entitled to completely disinherit the child - see Freedom of disposition. Tevildo (talk) 09:25, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

This is an interesting and informative article. Bus stop (talk) 19:08, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Roman City/Province-names; Etymology

I've been trying to translate and interpret the meaning of the names of many Roman cities and Provinces, but I've met with only moderate success. I've used Latin translators/dictionaries and I've checked lots of Wiki articles on specific cities/provinces and looked for 'etymology' etc. but its hard to use dictionaries, because the names often are not written exactly as words were normally pronounced and written in Latin, and articles often lack information on the origins and meaning of the names.

I would have liked to maybe find a site dedicated to Etymology of Roman place-names. I haven't found any. Got any clues that could help ?

2A02:FE0:C711:5C41:C53D:8CBC:A967:377E (talk) 14:57, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

I'd be interested to see some examples. And keep in mind that place names are not necessarily easy to trace. They could be from local names established before Latin became the standard. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:38, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Examples of what exactly ? Of what I struggle to find info on ?

Well. Probably more than half of all Roman place-names end with "cum," "ium," "num" or simply "um". "Cum" translates to many things in English, but none that makes any sense in these cases. But of course, many place-names will use abbreviations of longer words, often two words, that will combine to make one name.

"-nensis" is another much used word. I've managed to translate it to "of/from". for example; "Gallia Narbonensis" means "Gauls of Narbon."

"iae" is another three letters that is sometimes at the end of names. I know not its meaning.

Those are all usually endings to the names. The first part/word of the names is even harder to find out, with little info on Eytomology... sometimes also because the names stem from times before the Empire. Most of them probably do to varying degree.

Here's a few translations, most of them not really that helpful, with a few exceptions. :

Africanum/Africum = Africa

Castra/Castri/Castrum = Castle

Cum = Under command/at head of ????

Desertum = Desert

Galli = Gauls (Gallia)

Internum = Internal

Legionis = Legion

Lugdunum = Lyon

Mare/Maritimae = Coast & Litus = Shore

nensis = from/of  ?????

Nova = New

Ours = Nostrum

Sol/Solis = Sun

Vallum = Walls / Ramparts

I certainly would have liked to understand "cum" / "um" 2A02:FE0:C711:5C41:C53D:8CBC:A967:377E (talk) 18:04, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Latin is an inflected language; the endings of Latin nouns changes based on the grammatical function of the word in a sentence (taking into account the number and gender of the word. I suspect that's the reason you're finding so many with similar endings; the number of endings for Latin nouns is pretty limited. Some of the cities' names are of foreign origin. ("Cum" by the way is most often encountered as the word meaning "with", or in its enclitic form (attached to the end of a word) meaning the same thing.- Nunh-huh 18:50, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Cooking temperature

If an item should be cooked at 180 fan but you're also cooking a chicken at 160 fan, how much more cooking time should you add to the 180 degree product? --Andrew 16:12, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

"Fan"? Anyway, I would think you should cook them at the preferred temperature, which means you should cook them separately, unless you have two ovens. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:36, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

I presume our OP means 'Fahrenheit'. SteveBaker (talk) 16:56, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

That is an absolutely dreadful assumption, especially since it's already explained below, posted before you did. Do pay attention. 82.8.32.177 (talk) 17:41, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

No, the 160 is F. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:45, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Nobody would ever cook a chicken at that low a temperature. Have you ever tried cooking a chicken? That sounds about right for the meat temperature on the inside though. 82.8.32.177 (talk) 17:50, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

160 F internal temp as discussed below. I expect if you cooked it at 160 C, you'd end up with a large cinder. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:04, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

The OP clearly wasn't asking about internal temperature. Don't be obtuse. It's fine to make a mistake when answering questions, just admit it. Don't fudge about it. You do indeed cook a chicken at 160C (usually bit higher really), until it reaches an internal temperature of 70C or so. Fgf10 (talk) 19:55, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes, fan. Don't you have those in the colonies? I'd normally just do the average at 170 and keep an eye on it, bit shorter for the 160 product and bit longer for the 180. Not hard and fast rules. Definitely no need for separate oven when the difference is that small. I'd normally cook at chicken at 180 anyway, 20 minutes per pound plus 15ish minutes (if it's a decent size and quality). Fgf10 (talk) 16:51, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

It depends on what you're cooking. Some things take time to cook - and that time can be varied by altering the temperature - other things have to reach some internal temperature in order to cook - and as soon as they reach that temperature, they're done. If the thing that needs to be cooked at 180F needs to do so in order to reach an internal temperature that's above 160F - then no amount of additional time will allow it to cook with your chicken at 160F. But it it's something that just needs more time at 160F and less at 180F - then the answer is different.

Incidentally, 160F is not hot enough to cook chicken. To safely cook a chicken, the internal temperature (measured in the thickest part of the meat - but not touching a bone) is 165F.

So we need to know what you're cooking with your chicken or we can't answer your question. SteveBaker (talk) 16:56, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)(edit conflict)The answer will depend on the other item. If it's not meat, then you might get away with just cooking for perhaps 25% longer, but any advice we give might be dangerous because we don't know what you are cooking. Dbfirs 16:57, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

180 fan will be 180 degrees Celsius, cooked in a fan-assisted oven. No Fahrenheit cooking over this side of the pond.--Phil Holmes (talk) 17:14, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

So "180 fan" is a Britishism for what you just said? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:40, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Well, it's English for it yes, as I mentioned above, don't know what you call it in the US. My answer obviously also assumes Celcius, since I don't live in the States. Fgf10 (talk) 17:43, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Actually, as per google, chicken is supposed to be in the 160s F or about 75 C. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:45, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

That is the internal temperature for it to be cooked. Good luck getting a decent roast chicken by setting your oven temperature to that. Two very different things. Fgf10 (talk) 17:49, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

In Bugs' defence, this page from the (US) Food Safety and Inspection Service does say that it's _safe_ to cook chicken at 165°F. Whether it would taste very nice after prolonged roasting at that temperature is another matter. Tevildo (talk) 18:02, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Oh yes, of course you can cook chicken that low, usually bits of it sous-vide, but not in an oven. You know, it's quite sad that it seems the state of average cooking knowledge has dropped so far that people don't even know how to roast a chicken. Oh well, I've got bread baking in the oven, so must dash off. Fgf10 (talk) 18:10, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

You can cook chicken perfectly well at lower temperatures, you just cook it for longer. If you cook it for 6 hours in a slow cooker, the meat falls off the bones. A bit like pulled pork. Yum! --TammyMoet (talk) 19:49, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

For the OP, roast chicken cooked at 170 fan. Fgf10 (talk) 17:54, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

1) In the US, we just would say "Cook in a convection oven at 180°" (which would mean F, unless otherwise specified).

2) Note that you need to cook at a higher temp than what you want as the interior temp. Or, more precisely, "It would take an infinite amount of time for the internal temp to match the external temp." (Excluding infrared and microwave technology, which can heat the food more than the surrounding air.) So, to speed things up, you use a higher external temp.

3) 160°C and 180°C are 320°F and 356°F, respectively, so those temps might work to get the interior temp to a safe level (165°F for chicken) fairly quickly.

4) Now cooking two things in an oven together that require different temps is always tricky, whether it's a convection oven or not. It's not always possible to get good results this way. But, the way I would handle it would be to turn the temp up after removing the lower temp item, then carefully monitor the higher temp item using an internal thermometer, etc., to check for doneness. However, if the higher temp item needs a shorter time period, this may not work.

5) An additional concern, with a convection oven, is that too many items cooked at once will block airflow, leading to uneven cooking. StuRat (talk) 18:32, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Does it make sense to say Abrahamic religions pray to the same god?

If you don't believe god exists, does it make sense to say it's the same god? --Jubilujj 2015 (talk) 19:12, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Sure... An atheist can believe that others all talk to the same imaginary friend ... without personally thinking that the imaginary friend is in any way real. Blueboar (talk) 19:43, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Depends on you ask, I suppose. There are certainly those zealous enough to get all up in your face for "offending" them and whatever religion they believe in. I for one say such distinctions are irrelevant. When you refer to a fictional character from a story, you'd still refer to him or her as an individual/person, wouldn't you? Doesn't mean you believe they are real or that you acknowledge their actual existence or anything. All gods, at the end of the day, are simply 'ideas', and all ideas has to be put words to. How else would others know what you speak of ? Krikkert7 (talk) 20:10, 20 December 2015 (UTC)