Talk:Russo-Georgian War

Bad citing

The lead section ends with the following sentence: "The Russian military has occupied Abkhazia and South Ossetia in violation of the ceasefire since August 2008.[32]" However, the citation leads to an article entitled "Georgia accuses Russia of violating international law over South Ossetia". Is Wikipedia blindly accepting one party's accusations as proof, without giving fair space for the other side's point of view? The sentence does not accurately report the information in the citation and is a blatant violation of Wikipedia's neutrality policy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.1.158.251 (talk) 02:21, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

I have to agree this is strange. There are additional extremely POV assertions, such as "Russia falsely accused Georgia of [...]" (emphasis mine). These are apparently backed by way less assertive links (which, even if they were more assertive, would still tell only one side of the story). This looks biased to me. We cannot objectively conclude, in cases of recent wars, whether one side was being "false" or not. 190.2.42.21 (talk) 16:07, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

I am going to remove the "falsely accused Georgia" bit - it is by far the most blatant example of pov bias in the article, and it is astonishing that it is in the lede. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 16:58, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

BTW, I think the article is in a dreadful state - its condition is so bad it raises serious questions about the editing abilities and aims of those who have worked on it. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 17:00, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

POV pushing

The pro-Russian POV-pushing brigade has arrived at last. The first accusation above is completely false, since IP editor clearly didn't read past headline. The text says: "Russia has occupied the two regions since 2008 in violation of an internationally agreed ceasefire following its brief war with Georgia." This is international position on the Russian military occupation. Of course, the people, who support Russia, won't like anything that is critical of Russia.

The red-linked editor is clearly biased towards Russia and resents the fact that the article doesn't agree with the Kremlin's propaganda version of history, that the war began with a surprise Georgian attack on Russian citizens and Russia had to defend itself from Georgian aggression. He claims that the accusation of "aggression" was not false. The cited source, published by the Library of Congress, is reliable and says, "On August 8, 2008, South Ossetia remained an integral part of Georgian territory, which excludes the possibility of Georgian aggression against South Ossetia and undermines the use of this international law principle in as justification for Russia’s action." So the accusation had no ground in international law. Needless to say, groundless accusation is false accusation.

The latest historical research, published by Rowman & Littlefield, also confirms that Russian accusation of being provoked by Georgia's "aggression" was false, "This official Russian narrative, however, was a prime example of active disinformation, a deception method of which the Russian secret service is the unrivaled champion. [...] Does this interpretation of the Russian war against Georgia as a Russian response, provoked by a Georgian aggression that led to a genocide, stand up to the facts? No, it does not."

I've been monitoring this article for quite some time and I think that this POV pushing circus and personal attacks have to end. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a mouthpiece of the Kremlin.--UA Victory (talk) 07:12, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Though you claim to know all about what Wikipedia is, you seem to have forgotten the basics: assuming good faith and not making personal attacks. After that, maybe a refresh of your understanding of what constitutes pov wording is in order, and also that of undue weight. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 20:19, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

It's rather bad form to respond to a contributor's call for an end to agenda-pushing and personal attacks with a politically motivated personal attack. 198.103.152.51 (talk) 15:43, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I've never claimed that I "know all about what Wikipedia is", but your original comment read like it was personal attack, so stop putting words in my mouth. I simply responded to your comment and explained the situation. You've failed to back up your belief with reliable sources on talk page, instead you remove reliably sourced content. Is not the Library of Congress reliable enough for you? --UA Victory (talk) 11:31, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

"My original comment"??? You have dropped in from nowhere - so there is no "Original comment" that I could have made regarding you! What you posted above ("The red-linked editor is clearly biased towards Russia..." etc.), however, is a very clearly both a personal attack and a blatant display of bad faith. And this is harassment [1]. I advise you to change your ways regarding civility. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 14:35, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

I came here to discuss the content and you've responded by commenting on my editing abilities, then you proceeded to revert without giving a valid reason, so I was forced to post edit-warring notice on your talk page, because it's a WP policy. Perhaps I've overreacted, but I'm sure someone else would take a comment on his/her editing abilities as personal attack. While you advise me to learn about WP policies, I'm well aware of them. However I've viewed your block log and I see that you are the one who has been blocked for personal attacks and disruptive editing. You are avoiding the discussion of the reliability of cited sources.--UA Victory (talk) 14:43, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

The problem with "Russia falsely accused Georgia of [...]" isn't one of reliability of sources. The problem is that its one point of view on a matter where there are different points of view in the other sources. The article is incorrectly using the voice of Wikipedia to make a statement of "fact" based on a selective set of sources. Its appropriate to say that this or that source has said "Russia falsely accused", but it is inappropriate for Wikipedia to be saying it as if it were an unquestioned and undisputed fact. Beyond this, the text in question should not be in the introduction in the first place. Political Bias is only a small part of the problems of the article. The greater problem is that its almost unreadable and has whole sections which make no sense at all. 75.17.127.27 (talk) 01:36, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

POV problems throughout article

This is one of the worst articles I've seen on Wikipedia. Its biased, its selective in its presentation of sources, and there is literally no attempt at any sort of a balanced presentation. The introduction is ten times as long as it should be. A background section which starts dealing the mongol invasion and events in the 10th Century to deal with a short war in 2008 is absurd. The section "Geopolitical impact" is currently being used for what amount to political speeches. A "..." is used to completely distort a quote. The section "Humanitarian impact and war crimes" depends far too much on one source and is far too long. Especially in the cases where there are articles covering a particular subject, there is no need to go over the same subject at such incredible length in the main article. The Military Analysis sections are incredibly confused, biased and make no sense when read. The Georgian analysis starts out praising the Georgian military for shooting down aircraft. The Russian section starts out with "performed poorly", then moves on to accuse a minister of "negligence", then goes on to describe the "poor performance of the Russian Air Force". The "see also" section is surreal. The first two entries on the list are the German occupation of Czechoslovakia and the Shelling of Mainila. Most of the article should be shortened and rewritten. Since the narratives with regard to the start of the war are in absolute conflict with each other, its probably going to be necessary to present both of them. 75.17.127.27 (talk) 01:26, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

And we have a much content about Russian interests and activities before the conflict began but nothing of Georgia's own activities, its policies towards its minorities which encouraged them to consider they had no place within independent Georgia, in particular the Georgia for Georgians policy, or of its president who proclaimed that Ossetians within Georgia were "trash that has to be swept out through the Roki Tunnel". Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 22:11, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

The article already mentions that there was an ethnic conflict between Georgians and Ossetians and that nationalism emerged in Soviet Georgia during the dissolution of the Soviet Union. You only focus on anti-Georgian content but protest against the content that is critical of Russia. --UA Victory (talk) 11:11, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

The content seems not objective.

As I have witnessed the unfold of the war in a live feed by BBC journalist in South Ossetia at the time when the rockets rained down the city before the Russian Army responded next day.

Current TEXT: Russia falsely accused Georgia of "aggression against South Ossetia",[30] and officially launched a large-scale land, air and sea invasion of Georgia on 8 August under the guise of "peace enforcement" operation. My version: Russia accused Georgia of "aggression against South Ossetia",[30] and officially launched a large-scale land, air and sea invasion of Georgia on 8 August under the guise of "peace enforcement" operation.

The use of the word "falsely" already made judgement for readers who are unaware of the before and afters of the war. I cannot say for sure ALL events but at least I have seen the live footage from a BBC journalist who happened to be in the capital of South Ossetia at the time when the Georgian rockets rained down the city before Russian troops were stomping in next day. Therefore, using the word of "falsely" is not only controversial but also taking the situation out of context unless the author can prove the time, date and place of occurrence. Leave that word out and let the reader make their judgement. For example, after I read to that phrase "falsely accused", I have no more interest to read the rest of the article as I felt it will be biased and the so called "facts or incidents" in the subsequent paragraphs may be falsifiedWorld Citizen in New York (talk) 14:37, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes, you're right. And in the article Responsibility for the Russo-Georgian War is said that EU Independent Fact Finding Mission Report "open hostilities started "... with a large-scale Georgian military operation against the town of Tskhinvali and the surrounding areas, launched in the night of 7 to 8 August 2008"". Cathry (talk) 16:42, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, there are massive problems here. The latest edit that included the "falsely" ([2], subsequently edit-warred back in [3][4][5]) is just the icing on the cake. Even without that overtly POV addition, the wording of the intro is seriously skewed. Just compare the wording regarding the activities of the two main parties in the lead: the Georgian army "was sent" (passive voice, de-emphasizing agentivity and responsibility) "to defend civilians and restore order" (claiming legitimate goal as an unquestionable fact); Tskhinvali "was captured" (again passive voice). In contrast, Russia "launched an invasion" (active voice, emphasizing aggressive intent) "under the guise of 'peace enforcement' operation" (presenting motivation as false, using scare quotes); Russian forces "battled" Georgian ones (again, emphasizing aggressive agentivity and responsibility of Russian side). All these are covert POV messages through the choice of language alone; not even looking into the choice and weighting of facts and sources. I'm quite disappointed this was passed as GA when all this POV verbiage was already there. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:42, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Will there be any consequences for those who created this "massive problems" with POV? What about those responsible for passing this article as GA, contrary to valid objections of other editors or reviewers (including myself)?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:09, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Dear Admin, the source was reliable and it was POV-editors who were removing reliably sourced content because they didn't like the content. I've now reverted my edit. I'm sorry if I've caused a mess. However, I want to point out that two users who have reverted me, 92slim and Tiptoethrutheminefield, both edit in Armenia-related topics and the Satala page, which suggests the possibility of tag-teaming. Yet, it was me who was given a discretionary sanction warning.

Also I want to point out that it was RGloucester who objected to Antidiskriminator's original GA review and other editor also found it strange.

I don't understand what your problem with "The Georgian Army was sent to the conflict zone on 7 August to defend civilians and restore order" is. Multiple reliable sources say that the Georgian Army was indeed was sent on 7 August. For example, the WSJ writes: "Six days later, fighting flared to a level not seen for years between the ethnically Georgian and ethnically Ossetian villages that form the patchwork of the separatist region. It was then that Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili sent thousands of U.S.-trained troops into the province". --UA Victory (talk) 20:58, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

World Citizen in New York, Cathry, Future Perfect at Sunrise, Antidiskriminator. I am sorry that I opened a new section before reading this one. The concerns expressed are the same and the two sections should perhaps be fused. This article is a disgrace. Right now, I am too busy working on a professional project to rewrite it, but I hope someone else will take up the task very soon. Mitochondrial Eve (talk) 21:11, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

"defend civilians and restore order". :) How can anyone read anything like that with a straight face! It only lack the "invited in" to become the stock phrase used by the aggressors in just about every illegitimate act of military aggression ever. The most disgraceful thing about this article is that it has fallen under the ownership of someone who can write stuff like that. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 21:20, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

Multiple reliable sources say that Ossetians attacked Georgian civilians in South Ossetia. As a 2010 study found out, "What was Mr Saakashvili supposed to do? If he ignored the shelling, leaving his supporters to flee or be killed, the loss of prestige would be catastrophic." This is a clear case of WP:JDL. --UA Victory (talk) 11:20, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

The source you presented is reconstruction (of the unknown author) of the: Asmus, Ronald (19 January 2010). A Little War That Shook the World: Georgia, Russia, and the Future of the West. St. Martin's Press. ISBN 978-0-230-10228-6.

This source explains that author of your "reliable" source "supported ...as a government official and private advocate -- NATO enlargement in the 1990s ". This source explains that "Fewer, however, would agree with his essentially Georgian view of the war's details, causes, and significance." --Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:28, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

You can't label the source as "unreliable" because you don't like a past job of the author. The book also states that the Georgian leadership made errors which led to tensions between Russia and Georgia. Although Georgia was no angel and maybe a few would agree with the book's content in 2010, today more people are critical of Russia than before. Even the Russian researchers say that attacks on Georgian villages took place before 8 August 2008.--UA Victory (talk) 15:09, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

Very short but very unconstructive comment:

1. Unnecessary personalisation - "... because you don't like a past job of the author" Personalization of the issue is not constructive. What I like or not is none of your business.
2. Your nationality/ethnicity based arguments regarding Pavel Felgenhauer and Andrey Illarionov is also unconstructive. Their nationality/ethnicity is irrelevant. Their anti-Russian government position is not. Your attempt to mislead readers of this discussion by presenting opponents of Russian government as "Russian researchers", without clarifying their position toward Russian government, is another unconstructive addition of yours.
3. Wikipedia:ICANTHEARYOU and Wikipedia:Cherrypicking - There is no doubt you know there are different points of views regarding this event. "Believing that you have a valid point does not confer upon you the right to act as though your point must be accepted by the community when you have been told that it is not accepted." "If you are familiar with multiple credible sources on a subject and they are significantly different from each other, you may realize that Wikipedia's policies and guidelines support reporting from some or all of the sources, and you should edit accordingly."

I caught you red handed. You attempted to present text about "What was Mr Saakashvili supposed to do?" as some kind of scholarly consensus. Your behavior was obviously unconstructive for very long time. It was systematically tolerated and the result is a very biased article. I see that you are already warned and I suppose you will probably be topic banned soon. That would not resolve the main problem here. The main problem is not your (and not only your's) disruptive editing in this topic area. The main problem is that it was tolerated for so long. That is why I asked about the consequences (diff). --Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:26, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

I can't understand how my comment is "very unconstructive"? Please remember WP:AGF.

I understand that you disagree on some facts in this article and dislike the article because of those facts. No, you didn't catch me red handed, because I've never claimed that my source represented a scholarly consensus. It just showed the existence of such opinion. All of the sources agree that the Georgian operation began on 7 August 2008, but many of them mention that the incidents had already happened in the conflict zone before that and some of them suggest that Russian regular troops were probably already present in South Ossetia.

Your comment suggested the unreliability of the source because it could be a POV of the NATO, so how else could I explain to you that Russian sources also mention incidents before 8 August 2008? I didn't try to base my argument on nationality/ethnicity, just mentioned the fact that the author of the research had already mentioned in text, so why do you have an issue with me? The argument that some Russian man/woman can't be a researcher because he/she is an opponent of the Russian government sounds wrong.

The assessment of the United States diplomatic cable says, "All the evidence available to the country team supports Saakashvili's statement that this fight was not Georgia's original intention," and then says the Georgian villages were attacked.

May I remind you that after you had failed the very first GA review of this article, RGloucester suggested that that you might have "a severe bias" and "failed the article as a result", and another editor suggested that you were "cherrypicking and caught in the act of deliberately making issues to further an agenda."--UA Victory (talk) 12:44, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Misleading lede

The lede states that "Ossetian separatists began shelling Georgian villages on 1 August, with a sporadic response from Georgian peacekeepers in the region. The Georgian Army was sent to the conflict zone on 7 August to defend civilians and restore order. Most of Tskhinvali, capital of the self-proclaimed Republic of South Ossetia, was recaptured in hours. Georgia later said it was also responding to Russia moving non-peacekeeping units into the country."

This is in clear contradiction with the findings of the Independent International Fact-Finding Mission on the Conflict in Georgia. Here is an excerpt (p 19, 14.)

"Open hostilities began with a large-scale Georgian military operation against the town of Tskhinvali and the surrounding areas, launched in the night of 7 to 8 August 2008. Operations started with a massive Georgian artillery attack. At the very outset of the operation the Commander of the Georgian contingent to the Joint Peacekeeping Forces (JPKF), Brigadier General Mamuka Kurashvili, stated that the operation was aimed at restoring the constitutional order in the territory of South Ossetia."

See also . The report dates from 2009 so that, imho, a complete overhaul of the article is long overdue.

The article states that the Georgian troops began military operation in South Ossetia on 7 August. However, this should not be confused with launching the war with Russia. The report of the Independent International Fact-Finding Mission on the Conflict in Georgia also stated that there is "no way to assign overall responsibility for the conflict to one side alone."

A research from 2009 can not be a substantial reason for a complete overhaul, because some new researches have been published since 2009. A book published in 2010 by the Palgrave Macmillan explains that Ossetian shelling was one of the major factors that contributed to Saakashvili's decision to launch a military operation. A 2012 study uses the findings of the Russian researchers to question the findings of the EU-funded report. This study published in 2014 by Rowman & Littlefield found out that Russian General Baluyevsky had admitted to the war with Georgia being planned in advance before August 2008. The European Council on Foreign Relations found out in 2015 that "Russian deployment to South Ossetia" began on 7 August 2008 and "Lines of Russian disinformation even penetrated the EU's own final report." A brief overview of Russia's recent military history states, "Then-Georgian president Mikheil Saakashvili launched a large-scale operation on August 8, 2008, against South Ossetian forces who were shelling ethnic Georgian villages in the region."--UA Victory (talk) 19:24, 26 December 2015 (UTC)