Wikipedia:Teahouse

Finnusertop, a Teahouse host

Welcome to the Teahouse!
Your go-to place for friendly help with using and editing Wikipedia.

Ask a question

Question forumMeet your hostsArticles to improveBecome a host

New to Wikipedia? See our tutorial for new editors or introduction to contributing page.
Note: Newer questions appear at the bottom of the Teahouse. Completed questions are archived within 2–3 days.

Help Wikipedia

Lack of notable sources

My page keeps getting declined on account of lack of notable references. However, I've used up all of the sources mentioning the company on the wiki page and I don't know what else I could do differently to allow my page to be created and approved. Please help me!!!!

Mandy Mandymlall (talk) 11:08, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Changing the name of a page

I have been editing a page Building and Engineering Services Association. They recently changed their name, and acronym, but dropping the "and". So they are now Building Engineering Services Association and have gone from B&ES to BESA.

This is confirmed in trade press here: http://www.coolingpost.com/uk-news/bes-becomes-besa/

I don't know if you can change the name of the page to reflect this change. So rather than it be wrong, I created a new page Building Engineering Services Association, copied the old text across and changed the original page to be a redirect to the new one.

Within minutes, the new page was marked for deletion and the old one reverted.

So I get that I have done wrong. But how do I change the title so that it is correct?

thanks

Sourswoken (talk) 09:21, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Welcome to the Teahouse Sourswoken. The easy way would have been to WP:MOVE the [and] article to the [not and] title. But that is not simple now that there is an article at the [non and] title. The AfD nomination on the [not and] fork makes it even worse, for it questions whether the association is notable enough for an article. —teb728 t c 09:58, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

A number of editors involved in that tangle apparently don't understand that attribution must be maintained (see Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia), and that a cut-and-paste move is a copyright violation, which is why a move should be done by the move function, rather than by cut-and-paste. - David Biddulph (talk) 12:03, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Another citing question

Hello again WP experts!

I am in final editing phase of my new article and working to improve and round out my citations. I have come across a published magazine article written by the subject of my article. The article verifies some of the facts I had removed from the article due to the lack of reliable independent source. So my question here is if the article was published in a print magazine, is the magazine publisher considered to be the independent reliable source or the author of the article? Is there an assumption that the information in the article has been verified by the publisher before it went to press?

I suppose the real question is at what point does a personal recollection become a verified fact? Is it dependent on whether the information is shared in "first person" versus "third person"? After all, in my logic, all information and facts have to originate somewhere!

And to clarify, if I am told I cannot use it I will understand and simply include it as an external link.

Thanks in advance.

gggoodgggirlGggoodgggirl (talk) 03:23, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Welcome back to the Teahouse, Gggoodgggirl. When a person writes a published article about themself and their own work, then that can never be considered an independent source. It can be used for non-controversial biographical details such as date and place of birth, schools attended, marriage and children, place of residence and so on. It cannot be used as a source for praise, unusual achievements, awards, accolades, discoveries or any evaluative statements. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 06:48, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Unfortunately, even date and place of birth can be controversial. Actors/actresses and pop stars (or their agents) often falsify dates of birth (I knew a musician who was 2 months older than me, until he became a pop-star, and was "officially" 3 years younger than me). Places of birth have also been questioned for sportspeople and even politicians. IMHO self written bio's or those prepared by agents and PR companies cannot always be relied on. - Arjayay (talk) 12:19, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Stubs

How to I tag an article as a stub?Jimblesnotron (talk) 01:02, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

@Jimblesnotron: We have a template called stub, you use it like this: {{stub}}.
The result looks like this: If possible, try to find the most appropriate stub template for the article. A full list can be found at Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting/List of stubs. The Quixotic Potato (talk) 01:18, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

userboxes

how do you add user boxes to your page?Jimblesnotron (talk) 23:56, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia:Userboxes#Using_existing_userboxes The Quixotic Potato (talk) 00:06, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Citation needed addition

How does one add a citation needed to a wiki page?Jimblesnotron (talk) 23:50, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Hi Jimblesnotron, welcome to the teahouse! You can add the following to the source code of the article, directly after the text it applies to: {{Citation needed|reason=Reason|date=December 2024}}. You can replace Reason by your reason. You can also simply add {{Citation needed}} or even {{cn}}, without date and reason, but a full tag is preferred. If you can, it is even better to add a good source. Good luck, Gap9551 (talk) 00:01, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

comments to a declined article

Hello,

The following article has been declined for publication: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Thermogravitational_cycle

The comment of the reviewer is the following: "As per comments at WP:WikiProject Physics, declining on grounds of inadequate notability and failure to publish in a reliable journal. As noted, it is theoretical, and not well published. If it were in production, that would probably be sufficient for notability. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:26, 2 February 2016 (UTC)"

However there is no failure to publish and the cycle is indeed in production. The 2nd figure shows it working. Is it preferable to add a video (it is a cycle so the difference would not be great but the file size will be much bigger)?

Wikawonedia (talk) 23:01, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon: See above. The Quixotic Potato (talk) 23:21, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

No. You mean that it is in prototype operation, not that it is in production. The reviewers at WP:WikiProject Physics, while concurring that it is physically valid (over my concern that it might violate the second law of thermodynamics), thought that it was not notable. I suggest that discussion go there, with physicists, rather than here, with experienced editors who may have taken anywhere from no high school physics to two years of college physics to Ph.D.s in physics. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:44, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Might have accidentally deleted other people's requests for articles.

Hello. I attempted to request an article and fear that I accidentally deleted other people's entries. I was in the "Game Design (Non Video Game)" area. I thought the other entries were examples, so I deleted them. Can anyone get them back?Tyler Bielman (talk) 22:32, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Hi Tyler! Someone else already undone what you did. You probably won't get an article, because you aren't WP:NOTABLE. The Quixotic Potato (talk) 22:48, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Welcome to the Teahouse. Someone has already undone your edit, thus putting back what you accidentally deleted, but I've readded your request. Joseph2302 (talk) 22:49, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Request for edit - image additions

I would like to request the addition of some photos on a few pages. The images are free for use on wikipedia. I am a paid editor so have been advised to put request for edits in instead of adding them myself. What is the best way to direct the person who receives the request for edit to the photo file? Redediting (talk) 21:02, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Can you offer a few examples of what you are talking about? It's hard to give an answer to such an abstract question. Thanks. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:23, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

(e/c) Hi Redediting. First, thank you for disclosing paid editing on your user page without prompting (cajoling, standing on ones head, threats of the stock, etc.) I really do appreciate it. It is rare (though the fact you have an MLIS makes it unsurprising). Your question is a bit amorphous and raises various questions in my mind regarding mechanics, copyright and other issues. I'll just ramble for a bit and stop arbitrarily and maybe something I've said will help. (More specifics almost always results in better answers.)

Okay, first some mechanics. You probably know at this point that you can link to almost any page by enclosing it in doubled brackets ([[page name]]). If you do this with a file name, however, the image will display, rather than a link. To make it a link, just prefix a colon before the name: [[:File:Exact name, being careful of original capitalization.jpg]].

When you say these images are "free for use on wikipedia", that may mean they are just the types of images we want, but it raises some alarm bells that you (or the client) may be seeking to upload images licensed for Wikipedia use, while attempting to retain non-free copyright. That cannot be done here because of the way our licensing works. We require that our end-users be able to take our content and reuse it under a free copyright license at least as free as the co-licenses most of our content bears. That means that the images would have to be released to the world, irrevocably, under a suitable free copyright license (or into the public domain). Some information about that process is set out at Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials. (To be clear, we do allow very limited use of non-free content under the fair use doctrine, where certain strict criteria are met.)

If that's not the case – the images are actually free; and you understand that the client must upload them in a verifiable manner not you; or they're existing images at the commons and actually proper there; etc. – then just go to the talk page of the article in question and post a request there, linking to the file (using the colon trick I've explained). You can also post there this template to draw someone to your request: {{Request edit}}. This is increasingly more important the less traffic the particular talk page has. Best regards--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 23:37, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

New user created article in sandbox, what are next steps to move article to Wikipedia?

Hi there! I am a new user. I read and followed directions and created an article in the Wiki sandbox. I believe article is ready to move to Wiki, what are my next steps please?

Best, PMLandy13:58, 2 February 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk • contribs)

Hi PMLandy
I am sorry to tell you that your article in User:PMLandy/sandbox is nowhere near ready to be released as an article. There are several problems:-
Firstly, we do not use External links in the article text itself, so these all need to be removed.
Secondly, IMDB is not a reliable source as, like Wikipedia, it is user generated - so all 31 of your references to IMDB need to be removed (although most are External links in the bodytext)
Thirdly, you have included a copyright violation, having copied text directly from Rotten Tomatoes
Fourthly, as there are no reviews on Rotten Tomatoes whatsoever, I question whether the film is notable enough for an article at all, you need to find extensive coverage in reliable, independent sources.
I am sorry to be so negative, but creating an article from scratch is not easy, it is far easier to start off by making minor amendments to existing articles, or use the Articles for creation wizard. - Arjayay (talk) 14:45, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Thank you Arjayay for your review of my sandbox article and your help, I appreciate your time and candor. I hope I have addressed the errors and omissions that you mentioned, and have added some references to reliable independent sources. Thank you. Best PMLandy PMLandy (talk) 19:02, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Hi PMLandy
I see you have re-inserted the copyright violation of the plot, lifted straight from IMDB here and, although there are numerous external links, I am not sure why some of them are even there.
Other than the Variety article, there appears minimal coverage in reliable, independent sources.
Firstly, you must rewrite the plot, in your own words, and preferably more detail, WP:FILMPLOT advises that "Plot summaries for feature films should be between 400 and 700 words".
You then need to read Help:Referencing for beginners and insert references (Not external links) into the text (except the plot), to show which reliable source each piece of information has come from.
You should then remove all the External links used as references, as we do not need duplication, consider whether those you have not used are worth keeping (what value do they add? it is quality, not quantity that counts) and reformat the remaining links as WP:External links
Hope that helps - Arjayay (talk) 10:55, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

'Reliable Source' for creating articles

Hello,

Kindly let me know what kind of Reliable source is required for creating article regarding a place in very remote area?

Note: So far the article is not created, I am trying in sandbox.

rgds Dhuffiwala (talk) 12:14, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Hello Dhuffiwala and welcome to the Tea House. If the location you refer to is a populated, legally recognized place then it is presumed to be notable in Wikipedia terms and worthy of inclusion. If it isn't, there are other rules that apply, which you can read more about here. Good luck!  Philg88 ^♦talk 12:21, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Many thanx for the reply.

I am trying to get the information from the Government department, but so far the response is very slow.

Unfortunately this place is not on on google map and google earth :(

Rgds

Dhuffiwala (talk) 12:24, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

I think if any editor is from Gujrat (India) side, he/she may understand this and can help me.

Dhuffiwala (talk) 12:41, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

I don't know how active it is, but perhaps Wikipedia:WikiProject India may have some guidance or help. --Jayron32 13:05, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

That's a nice suggestion Jayron32, many thanx

Dhuffiwala (talk) 04:24, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Trying to contact senior editor from India, in the mean time I got reply from concern government department through email, is that enough?

Dhuffiwala (talk) 12:25, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

How to search for the edit that added specific content

Is there a way to do this? I am the subject of an interaction ban, and I'm trying hard not to remove/change content added by the another specific editor. The only problem is, I see content in an article. There are 1000+ edits on this article, dating back 5years or longer, so without a very long and tedious clicking process, I have no idea who added that content. I want a way to see which editor(s) have been responsible for adding specific content to the article. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 10:50, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Is there (an easy) way to do this?

Hello, Spacecowboy420. I've found WikiBlame useful for the purpose of finding the edit that added specific text to an article. Cordless Larry (talk) 10:56, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Thanks Larry. I will be trying it straight away. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 11:01, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

No worries, Spacecowboy420, although thinking about it more, perhaps what you're really after is a tool to find all of the edits that the particular editor has made to the article? Cordless Larry (talk) 11:35, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

This will probably do the job. If there is content that I wish to change, I will search for that content, and if the other party involved in the interaction ban put that content in, I will leave it alone. It's going to be annoying, as a lot of my edits are improving grammar/vocabulary, but if it keeps me unblocked, it seems worth it. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 11:52, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

good communication skills needed to be an editor

Hi, Senior Editors, I want to know that would it require good communication skills to be editor. and my next question is " Can we make a page of any topic about whom we know well, such that page for our regions MLA(Member of legislative assembly).

Thanks Mohd Nazir Zaki Nazirzaki (talk) 06:28, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Hello, Nazirzaki, and welcome to the Teahouse. That is a difficult question to answer: certainly it helps to have good communication and language skills; but this is a collaborative project, and it can sometimes be helpful for somebody to write a draft of an article which can be improved by others. I think it depends whether your work is going to improve the encyclopaedia, or whether it will create a problem for other people to sort out.

There are a few things I would suggest:

• If English is not your first language, consider contributing to another language Wikipedia rather than the English one
• In any case, I would advise a new editor to spend time improving existing articles before they embark on the difficult task of creating a new article.
• If you are going to try creating a new article in English Wikipedia, read Your first article to begin with. Make sure that you have independent reliable published sources about the subject first: without them, it is impossible to write an acceptable article. (These sources do not have to be in English, though if high-quality English sources are available, they are preferred).
• Wikipedia articles should be written in neutral language, based almost entirely on what people unconnected with the subject have said about them. What the subject or their associates say or want to say is almost irrelevant. For this reason, if you know the MLA in question, you are discouraged from writing about them, because you may have a conflict of interest. (I have interpreted your "about whom we know well" as meaning you know them personally. If that is not the case then you might not have a conflict of interest; but any article you write should still be based primarily on what independent published sources say, not on your personal knowledge of them.).
• I suggest that you don't think in terms of "a page of" a topic, but "an article about" the topic. (I may just be misunderstanding you, though).

Happy editing. --ColinFine (talk) 15:49, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Is the crux of the issue style (a fixable problem) or notability (maybe not)?

I appreciate your rapid feedback to my today's submission of an article titled William P. Kreml. Two reasons were given for the decision to reject. One was failure to adhere fully to manual of style specifications. The other pertains to and apparently rejects the notability of the subject. It appears to me the former is a remediable matter, but the latter may not be. I confess that I am feeling bad, because I firmly believe that his scholarly career at the University of South Carolina and at Peking University in China and his activism and leadership in the Democratic Party and now in the Green Party confirm his notability, and it is I who solicited from him the information that I put in the article. But if the judgment has been made (and can't be altered) that the notability threshold has not been reached, I will accept that as a deal-breaker and not try to modify and resubmit. Davegillespie (talk) 03:31, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Draft:William P. Kreml.--ukexpat (talk) 04:24, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

You are right that style can easily be fixed (I have made a start by removing numerous blank lines from the draft and deleting two duplicate sections), while establishing notability may not be possible. The draft cites six sources; the only one I have access to confirms that he is competing to stand as Green Party candidate for US President, but contains no discussion of him. I am unable to judge whether the references cited do establish that he is notable. The rejection notice at the top of the draft links to two pages on notability requirements, for academics and for politicians, I suggest that you read them. The judgment was not that "he is not notable", it was that "the references cited do not establish that he is notable". Whether you can change that depends on what else has been published about him in acceptable sources. Maproom (talk) 08:32, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

"Notable" is a slightly unfortunate word that Wikipedia uses, Davegillespie, because it doesn't mean quite what it means in normal life. In particular, it doesn't mean "important", or "famous", or "popular", or "significant", or "influential". It is possible to be notable without being any of those, and it is also possible (though less common) to be one or more of those and not be notable. It is purely a matter of whether people unconnected with the subject have published material about the subject. It is possible that, despite his scholarship and activism, nobody has yet written enough about him. Then again they might have. --ColinFine (talk) 15:34, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

'dazzled' and confused about creating an appropriate Wiki page

So I am a first-timer and I feel like I am way down Alice's rabbit hole. My normal intuitions don't work here. Heck, I can't even figure out to respond to the editor (LaMona) who communicated that my article was declined. In my "normal" world, there would have been a single link to respond and dialogue in order to fix issues. But instead, I received a stock message suggesting I ask questions at either the "Articles for Creation Help Desk" or here at "teahouse." So I just shout out into the ether? What do I include to reference my page? Also, I have no clue WHAT questions to ask. So here's the requested specific question: can anyone tell me ONE specific next step to do since my article was declined? There is a note under this very box I'm typing that says "you should sign all of your no-article posts by ending them with four tildes (Rustberg (talk) 01:28, 2 February 2016 (UTC)). ??? but ok. Oh, another thing—how will I know if this message is answered?Rustberg (talk) 01:28, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

For reference draft appears to be Draft:Los Angeles Youth Orchestra.--ukexpat (talk) 01:36, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Yes, there are many difficulties, @Rustberg: and you have taken on most of them at once by writing a new article rather than getting experience first at improving old ones. Hey, it could have been worse, you might have tried starting with a WP:AUTOBIOGRAPHY. Yes, shouting into the ether here on Teahouse is a good start, as it causes several of us old-timers to watch your User Talk Page. Too near to my bedtime to answer many of your questions, but @Ukexpat: showed how to refer to your draft. So, now you also see how to ping (alert) everyone who's in on the conversation. And what was I going to say? Umm, looks like I was going to say goodnight. Others will come along to try helping you more. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jim.henderson (talk • contribs) 01:50, 2 February 2016‎ (UTC)

Welcome to the Teahouse, Rustberg. When LaMona left messages for you, there was a (talk) link after their signature. Simply click that to reach that editor's talk page to converse with them. As for your draft, one of the most important things to learn as a new editor is that a Wikipedia article should summarize what independent reliable sources say about the topic. Unless there is significant coverage of the topic in independent reliable sources, the topic is not considered notable as Wikipedia defines that term. Therefore, you should assemble your reliable sources and build your article by summarizing what they say, referencing those sources. For your topic, a detailed article about the youth orchestra in the Los Angeles Times, for example, would be an ideal source. Sources controlled by the orchestra itself are of no value in establishing notability. You should remove all links to external websites from the body of your draft. A link to the orchestra's website is appropriate in a separate section at the end. I recommend that you read Your first article and Referencing for beginners. I am pinging you to let you know I am answering you. There are several ways to notify other editors. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 02:30, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Hello and welcome to the Teahouse. I agree that starting out by writing a draft can be a bewildering and isolating experience. I spent a few months copy-editing before I even started to write new content and the learning curve was much more manageable. Looking at your draft, there are several things that will immediately prevent it being accepted, in order of importance:

• • • You need multiple references to independent reliable sources. Of the current references, only the first really satisfies the criteria. Generally, for this type of topic, newspaper articles, reviews by actual critics etc. are what you want. In my experience, you will need at least 3-4 good sources where the topic of the article is the primary topic. After, that, you will need to support the assertions in the article by citing these sources inline. I see you have already figured out how. Congratulations!
    • The tone of much of the text is promotional. Basically, if it looks like something you might consider putting in a brochure, cut it out. Use plain language and state the facts with no meliorative language.
    • You have inluded many external links in the body of the article and no internal links. This is not how Wikipedia works. Links in the main body are to allow readers to better navigate the encyclopedia. They should be internal and not send readers to outside websites without warning. External links are used to help readers find references, or are included in the External Links section at the bottom if they are particularly relevant.

Anyhow, that is what jumps out at me. @LaMona: may have more comments. Best of luck! Happy Squirrel (talk) 02:06, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

@Ukexpat:, the Teahouse is a great place to ask your questions. I think we can all remember how "different" working in Wikipedia is, and how confusing it can be. Looking at your article, I agree fully with what Happysquirrel said above. This is also very similar to what the reviewer, LaMona, said in the review comments: "All information in the article must be taken from independent, third-party sources that are cited. You have no sources. Any information that cannot be sourced to outside sources must be removed from the article. You cannot use the group's own web site as a source, only third-party sources (such as newspaper articles). Also, this article reads like an essay or a story -- WP articles are factual in nature, no "LAYO seeks to develop a passion for music..." "Combining their collective talent, intellectual curiosity, and discipline" - that is the kind of thing that would go into a brochure for the group, but not an encyclopedia article." I can see how that is a bit strange to somebody not familiar with working on an encyclopedia, but the good news is that it can all be fixed.

You asked for one specific step to move forward, so here it is: First step - find good, detailed references. You want reliable, independent sources that discuss LAYO in detail, not just passing mentions. Build the article around what those sources say. If you have questions, you can either click on the blue "ask the reviewer" link (in the pink box at the top of your article) to discuss with LaMona, or come back and ask here by editing this thread and appending your comments or questions on the bottom (signed with four tildes, just like you did originally!) --Gronk Oz (talk) 02:29, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Er wasn't my question - I've been around for 10+ years...--ukexpat (talk) 02:45, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

OOPS - sorry about that, my fault! (Copied and then neglected to change the name.)--Gronk Oz (talk) 03:30, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

To @Happy Squirrel and @LaMona, thank you very much for your responses. Now that I figured out I just needed to VIEW the draft page to see editorial suggestions, things are making some sense. My preliminary reaction to the comments is that I imagine there are not enough third party sources to create a full Wiki page on the Los Angeles Youth Orchestra. One of our Board Members insisted we do this, so I rolled up my sleeves and just played around in the Sandbox till I thought I had a basic summary and history of our organization. Much of that history is just contained in our organization's files, programs, and promotional materials. So here is one more specific question: Should I instead just write one or two paragraphs on the organization that only references specific information from the few online articles still available? Otherwise, should I drop the project until more 3rd party sources are available?Rustberg (talk) 02:30, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

All of you are so supportive and CLEAR with your suggestions. Thank you so much. I understand that my next steps are to collect every third-party source I can find and compose only content directly supported by those sources. So instead of a comprehensive history of our organization, I can only cover those moments highlighted in sources I can locate, yes? I have to completely rethink this. But it does make sense now that you have all responded. Regarding images, I'm still confused about what images are "free content." I'm gathering a photo that I have taken myself is not appropriate since it is covered under copyright law? If so, I can't imagine any image I could include with the article that would be acceptable. Please correct me if I'm wrong.Rustberg (talk) 02:47, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Hello again, Rustberg. Firstly, check the article's Talk page at Draft talk:Los Angeles Youth Orchestra - I have put a list of some additional sources there that might be useful. There are lots of references talking about YOLA performing at the Super Bowl in addition to what I have listed, so pick just a couple of the best ones. Then after it is over, I imagine there will be more to choose from.

Regarding the pictures, anything you have taken yourself is perfect. You own the copyright on it, so if you are happy to release it to the world, for anybody to do with as they will, then do so by uploading it to Wikimedia Commons. I find it easiest to use the Upload Wizard at commons:special:UploadWizard, specifying it as "own work". If it gives you any problems, you know where to ask...--Gronk Oz (talk) 03:30, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

@Ukexpat brings up an important point that <again> I didn't realize—conflict of interest. The LA Youth Orchestra is a small non-profit and I am its conductor. So my reading of the Wiki philosophy is that I should not be writing anything about it here. But then, who would? @Gronk Oz inadvertently brought up a strong reason for my orchestra to have its own Wiki page. We are NOT YOLA (the LA Philharmonic's multi-million dollar orchestra for underserved inner city children that will be performing at the Super Bowl next week). But everyone confuses us with them because they took a similar name (Youth Orchestra Los Angeles; ours is Los Angeles Youth Orchestra). I think that is one reason our Board wanted a Wiki article for us. But given Wiki guidelines, who would write it?Rustberg (talk) 03:41, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Hi Rustberg. You could try posting a request at Wikipedia:Requested articles to see if any one there would be interested in taking on the challenge. It's not a 100% guarantee, but you may find an editor who has experience with similar articles. You could also try posting something at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject California/Los Angeles task force or Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical music since those two Wikipedia:WikiProjects would likely be associated with any such article. The editors at Wikipedia:WikiProject California/Los Angeles task force might be able to help you find better sourcing, and the editors at Wikipedia:WikiProject Classical music might be able be able to better explain the notability requirements for youth orchestras such as yours. Finally, and no disrespect intended to you or your group, it's not really what your board wants which determines whether an article is written; it's what reliable sources say about your group. Wikipedia article's are not really intended to be a means of self-promotion, which is something that many organizations (especially smaller, lesser known ones) seem to misunderstand. Subjects of articles do not own and cannot control what is written about them on Wikipedia, except in some very specific cases. So, you might try explaining Wikipedia's law of unintended consequences to your board because having a Wikipedia article written about you may seem totally great and cool at first, but there can be downside as well if you mistakenly assume Wikipedia is something that is not. Your organization may have total editorial control over any content placed on its website or social media accounts, but they will have almost zero control when it comes to Wikipedia. So, their purposes may be better served by the former than the latter. -- Marchjuly (talk) 06:52, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, Teahouse, for all of your help. Makes me glad I can send folks here - a great community. LaMona (talk) 15:00, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Someone keeps on changing my page on Orthodoxy back to the way it was before I edited it.

I believe that I am not vandalizing but helping the wikipedia community by improving the article on Orthodoxy and I believe that I know more than the other editors because I myself am Orthodox and when the others change the articles back it is really frustrating because they took away the work that I have done and they keep on saying I am vandalizing the page but in reality I am not. So how do I fix this and keep my edits?Voss101 (talk) 23:03, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

There is an explanation on the talk page of that article. Please discuss the changes there. Dbfirs 23:06, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Talk page discussion points out errors in your additions, Voss101, and that discussion says that Eastern Orthodox Church is actually the article that your proposed edits would fit best. You cannot edit an article based on your own personal knowledge. You need to provide references to reliable sources that back up what you propose to add. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 23:14, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

But I can still make edits to the Orthodoxy page as long as I have proof behind my changes.Voss101 (talk) 23:20, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Hi Voss101. There is no simple answer to that question that would not mislead. Oversimplifying, and nevertheless throwing probably too many links at you for which I apologize: yes, you can: if reliable, secondary, independent sources exist that verify the changes made, and you cite those sources using inline citations with a modicum of transparency when you make those edits, and the verified material you add is written from a neutral point of view, and contains no original research, and would not be undue weight to include, and if you are reverted, you discuss the changes instead of edit warring and after discussion there is consensus to include some or all of the changes proposed. Best regards--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 23:36, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Voss101: you appear to have several misunderstandings.

• You refer to its as "your page on Orthodoxy". It isn't yours. It is Wikipedia's article on Orthodoxy.
• You assume that your membership of the Orthodox faith is relevant. It isn't. There is a different article on the Eastern Orthodox Church.
• Even if this were about the Eastern Orthodox faith, your membership of it would not give you any special qualification to edit the article. Indeed, rather the reverse, as you have a conflict of interest. Maproom (talk) 11:59, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Move Articles

Hi There, I am trying to update the titles of a few articles to align with new branding guidelines. I keep coming to a roadblock that says I am not authorized to make the move. How can I get authorized access? Thanks! Echaryk (talk) 22:35, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

@Echaryk: Wikipedia does not work on "branding guidelines" or addition of sponsorship names, rather the names used in reliable sources. In order to move a page where you don't have authorisation, you should start a requested move discussion to gain a consensus for the move.

Undiscussed controversial moves such as Toronto Eaton Centre and Polo Park can and will be reverted- I've requested reversion of both these moves to allow for a proper move discussion to take place. Joseph2302 (talk) 22:46, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Are you sure that you needed to go through the G6 route to delete the redirects? Wouldn't you have been able to move the articles back directly, if all that existed at the target location was the redirect to the article being moved? See WP:MOR. Of course you can't do it now that you've edited the redirect pages. --David Biddulph (talk) 23:02, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Tried doing the reverse move, didn't work for me, and never has fine before. Joseph2302 (talk) 07:44, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

WP:MOR has worked for me if the redirect page hasn't subsequently been edited, and did so as recently as yesterday. If it doesn't work for you it might be worth reporting the details so that someone can investigate the problem for you. --David Biddulph (talk) 07:55, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

(e/c) Hi Echaryk. Please be aware of Wikipedia's article titling policy, and especially of its section on common names. See also Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Trademarks and Wikipedia:Official names. In short, Wikipedia often does not use the "official" or more formal names of topics in its naming scheme, but prefers the name most commonly used in reliable English language sources. "New branding guidelines" may be completely irrelevant to what an article should be called under our naming conventions. If you think a move might be controversial, and especially if it would seem to contravene or be questionable under these policies, please request the move at requested moves rather than renaming it unilaterally. Best regards--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 22:51, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Noting the specifics. We do give more weight to reliable English language source written after a name change, but the common names policy still applies. See Wikipedia:Article titles#Name changes.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 22:56, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Also, in answer to the actual original question, the reason you cannot move it is because the new name already exists, probably as a redirect. If you request a move and it gets a consensus to move, then an admin can deal with this issue- only admins are authorised to do page moves like this. Joseph2302 (talk) 23:16, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Please can an admin move Toronto Eaton Centre back please? Once these moves have been reverted, hopefully the user will instead use WP:RM, so they can be discussed. Joseph2302 (talk) 07:46, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Also, User has COI as they work for CF, hence the reason they want all these sponsor names. Joseph2302 (talk) 07:54, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Is there a way for quick deletion of a mis-spelled redirect title?

Spelling error in a redirect; now fixed. However the old/former/wrong spelling is now a redirect article, and I would think, should be deleted.

Is there a quick way to do this, short of a full blown WP:AfD? Cheers. N2e (talk) 21:15, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

@N2e: You can tag the redirect for speedy deletion. See WP:CSD for the full list of speedy deletion reasons, and tags for each one. In this case, db-r3 was created specifically for this exact situation. So tag the redirect with {{db-r3}} and a short edit summary explaining why, and then an admin will be along presently to take care of it. --Jayron32 21:24, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

 Done—Thanks User:Jayron32 for the quick help. N2e (talk) 21:54, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Notability

Hi! Just had an article rejected on grounds of notability. Article was about short film that won 2001 Cannes short film jury prize https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sinkmac/sandbox/Daddy%27s_Girl_(2001_film) First time editor - do I need more and better links than IMDB? Thanks in advance! Sinkmac (talk) 17:03, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Hi Sinkmac - IMDB is not a reliable source since, like Wikipedia, it is user-edited/generated. You need reputable magazines or newspapers, or the Cannes website itself. - Arjayay (talk) 17:06, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

OK - just done some research on Film 'Golden Rule" Looks like I need some more links - was big news in Scotland at time - if I add links to articles in BBC and Daily Record and Mail - will that suffice?Sinkmac (talk) 17:10, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

OK got it thanks Sinkmac (talk) 17:13, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

@Sinkmac: Hi there Sinkmac, the standards of notability for films might also be of use. Happy editing! Lirazelf (talk) 10:35, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

How do I add a nickname to a city?

I saw how Stavanger's page had their nickname "The Oil Capital" labelled. I wanted to label the nickname of my home town so I copied and pasted what had been done in the Stavanger page but with our nickname, but it did not work. How do I add a nickname of a city? Sophia Amalia (talk) 15:41, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Hello, Sophia Amalia. The reason it didn't work is that Stavanger uses the template {{infobox settlement}}, whereas Tromsö uses a different template {{infobox kommune}}: each infobox template is separate, and unfortunately they don't all have the same arguments. I note that in the documentation for Template:infobox kommune it says "This template is a customized wrapper for {{Infobox settlement}}. Any field from {{Infobox settlement}} can work so long as it is added to this template first." So it would be possible to add the "nickname" field to the template. In my opinion nicknames should be added only citing an unimpeachable source, otherwise we'll get people adding nicknames that a few people call a place. --ColinFine (talk) 16:11, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

St Helen's Church, Lundy

Hi Kylie, I notice that you have reverted my edit on this page. Did I do something wrong? The information on the page is incorrect.

BW,

Belinda Belinda.cox (talk) 15:02, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Moved from Wikipedia talk:Teahouse/Questions - despite the title it appears to refer to St Helena's Church, Lundy - Arjayay (talk) 15:38, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Notifying User:KylieTastic who it appears to refer to - Arjayay (talk) 15:41, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

• Hi Belinda sorry I see your new here and thus may not have noticed but when reverted, or just checking others edits, if you look at the History you should see the edit summary people leave that should help. In this case if was because youor edit asserted a name change without any source and it contradicts the source in the artcile (though in this case it had been broken as well, I think my the target website changing).this link is to Diocese of Exeters website that list the church as "St. Helena" not "St Helen's" as you claimed. I did look for other evidence either way as this assertion has been made before, but found none. If you have a source for "Helen" that is more athorative than the diocese please let us know. Hope that helps explain. KylieTastic (talk) 16:21, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

P.S. Thanks for the ping Arjayay

Hello, Belinda.cox. The reason KylieTastic reverted your change, as you can see by looking at the history of the article, is that you made a significant change without quoting a source. I agree that there are sources on the web which call it St Helen's, but both British Listed Buildings and the Diocese call it St Helena's, which strongly indicates that its official name is St Helena's. Unless you can find a reliable source which explains that these apparently impeccable sources have it wrong, you must not remove that name. If you can find a reliable source (not a blog or social media) that uses the name St Helen's, you can certainly cite it and mention that both names are used, and which sources use which; but you should not attempt to explain or resolve the issue unless you find a source which does so. --81.187.5.39 (talk) 16:22, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

• Belinda I see that there is sites such as www.lundychurch.org.uk that say "St Helen’s" but it has a image of a document in the history from 1962 that calls is Helena. It does not indicate that it was offically renamed St Helen, but maybe is was? It could be one of those cases where it has just changed informally over time as often has happened in the past. I'm at work so can't look further into this at the momnet. Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 16:33, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

• Hi again Belinda and any other interested readers. Back from work I looked further and found that the Anglican site uses Helena (as do the British Listed Buildings site and historic documents), however the A Church Near You site uses Helen (although it should be noted that there is a link to edit, thus not a reliable source). Assuming the Saint in question is Helena (empress) as the lead says "Saint Helena or Saint Helen". I have written to the Anglican website to clarify the contradictions on there site and we will see. Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 20:40, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

How to make an article visible?

Contributed this article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Gita_See it does not seem to be visible/searchable. How do I make it visible and assign a correct URL, please? Thanks for your help. Gita See (talk) 10:57, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

You had put the content on your user page, but another editor has now moved it for you to a userspace draft at User:Gita See/David Bartlett. Before you submit that userspace draft for review, you need to provide references, see WP:referencing for beginners. --David Biddulph (talk) 11:18, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Hello, Gita See. I have moved your draft article from your user page (which is not an appropriate place for creating articles, see User pages) to the user subpage User:Gita See/David Bartlett. (I have left your user page blank: you can insert appropriate material there if you choose.) I did not move it to main space because it is nowhere near ready for publishing, in that it contains no inline citations at all. When you have ensured that all the information - or at least, anything that could conceivably be challenged - is supported by citations to reliable published sources (see Biographies of living persons), I suggest you submit it for review by inserting {{subst:submit}} at the top of your draft.

I don't know why you couldn't see the draft, but I shouldn't worry about it: it was there, and I've now moved it. --ColinFine (talk) 11:20, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Thank you! Please advice if IMDB or LinkedIN profiles are acceptable references/reliable published sources?Gita See (talk) 11:26, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

You need to read WP:Reliable sources, but the two you mentioned are user-generated so not reliable. --David Biddulph (talk) 11:34, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for your help, will source appropriate references. Gita See (talk) 11:43, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Images consistently removed. Why??

Several times uploaded images to Lithuanian profile of Petronele Gerlikiene and they get consistently removed (I own the rights to the images). English page of the same name is fine. Why do they get removed? Gita See (talk) 10:46, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Welcome to the Teahouse, Gita See. You will have to ask at Lithuanian Wikipedia why the images were removed there. Each language Wikipedia is run independently, and they may have different image use policies than we do. I do see a major problem with the licensing though. You say that a painting is your "own work" but the article says the artist died in 1979. Unless you actually painted it, you cannot claim it as your own work. You need to explain on the image page how you have the right to freely license the image for reuse by anyone for any purpose without permission. Are you sure that is what you intended? Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 11:00, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Yes, because I am a family member and official biographer, so I do own the rights, I am also OK with making them public. SO what would be best, please? Gita See (talk) 11:05, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

@Gita See: Your changes were reverted by lt:User:Homo ergaster. So you might want to ask him/her the reason for reverting you at lt:User Talk:Homo ergaster. The edit summary was "Atmestas Gita See pakeitimas, grąžinta ankstesnė versija (Homo ergaster keitimas)"

The images are still on Commons and have not been tagged for deletion; so the reason for reverting you may be editorial rather than copyright. —teb728 t c 11:46, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

If Google Translate is accurate, that is a very uninformative edit summary. It pretty much says, "I reverted you, Gita, to the previous version". Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 14:20, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

rejection of a draft I started creating

A draft is rejected four times now. i need help in citations.Contentwriter qip (talk) 06:34, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Welcome to the Teahouse, Contentwriter qip. I suggest that you study Referencing for beginners and format all of those bare URLs into fleshed out references. You may also find Your first article to be worth studying. It is your responsibility to show that the topic is notable as Wikipedia defines that term. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 08:21, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

how to cite

I have been rejected twice for my submission regarding Stephen Parsons. The reason for the rejection is not properly cited sources, BUT the info I have is from personal conversations with Stephen Parsons NOT from outside sources. How do I cite personal conversations/notes which are direct with the person I'm trying to write about?Mother79 (talk) 02:52, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Hello, Mother79 and welcome to the Teahouse. I have bad news, I'm afraid. Wikipedia's first and most fundamental policy is that the information here must be verifiable, which means that "anyone using the encyclopedia can check that the information comes from a reliable source". Personal conversations cannot be verified, so that information is not suitable for inclusion in the encyclopedia.--Gronk Oz (talk) 06:19, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Signature formatting?

Hello, I have seen a few more experienced editors on Wikipedia with fancy signatures, colors and all. How would one get a colorful signature themselves? I see there is a spot in the preferences for changing the signature, but what would the wiki code be for a formatted username? What would one put there if one wanted colors, bold, etc.? --ElementBroccoli (talk) 00:02, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Welcome to the Teahouse, ElementBroccoli. We have a guideline on signatures that has a section on Customizing your signature that should be helpful to you. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 08:14, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Is it acceptable to use math to figure birthdates?

I'm working on a userspace draft biography of a now-dead horse trainer. (He meets notability, and actually exceeds it; he was sort of a celebrity in the horse world, and I have a lot of reliable sources like old newspapers.) One of the sources says he died in 2000 at the age of 82, yet doesn't say when he was born. Is it ok to use math and say he was born in 1918, or is that OR? I'm going to be working on this for a while, and I may find an exact source for his birth date before I move the article to mainspace anyway. I'm just sort of curious, because I can't remember ever hearing if there's a policy on this. White Arabian Filly (Neigh) 19:51, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

@White Arabian Filly: If he died in 2000 aged 82, then he could have been born in either 1917 or 1918, depending on whether he died before or after his birthday in 2000. As such, listing his birth year as 1917 or 1918 might be okay, listing at 1918 without a reliable source wouldn't be. Joseph2302 (talk) 20:02, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

The relevant guideline is WP:CALC "Routine calculations do not count as original research, ..... Basic arithmetic, such as adding numbers, converting units, or calculating a person's age are some examples of routine calculations." - Arjayay (talk) 20:08, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Oh OK, thanks to both of you. I guess I'll say "He was born in 1917 or 1918". Or maybe I'll get lucky enough to find the exact source. I found out where he was born, but weirdly the source didn't say when. White Arabian Filly (Neigh) 20:13, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

We actually have a template for that, {{Birth based on age as of date}}. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 22:43, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

And there is a somewhat similar template {{Birth date based on age at death }}. So in your case, White Arabian Filly, "{{Birth date based on age at death |82|2000}}" gives "1917 or 1918".--Gronk Oz (talk) 06:25, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Hey White Arabian Filly. Although Find-A-Grave's blurb write-ups on deceased people are not reliable sources, gravestone pictures bearing dates of death found through the site may be used as primary sources and are generally considered reliable. In short, stonemasons are given the date of death by the family of the deceased – and not effing it up with a wrong date is as important to his job as is knowing how to carve the stone. It appears this is your individual, who was born on September 8, 1918 and died on October 2, 2000 at 82 (I'd by much more confident this was him if the draft said his full name). Best regards--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 13:43, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Your grave seems to be in Indiana, whereas the ref in the draft apparently has him being buried in Alabama. --David Biddulph (talk) 14:08, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Looking in the sources cited, Dunn was buried at Oakwood Cemetery, Sheffield, Alabama. This is his entry on FindAGrave; birth date May 15, 1918. There is however not a photograph of the gracestone itself. --LukeSurl ^{t c} 14:22, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Note that Dunn died in early 2001 according to both FindAGrave and this source, not 2000. --LukeSurl ^{t c} 14:25, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Ah, interesting. Great follow-up David and Luke. That is why I said I would be much more sure of the draft had independent confirmation of his name (so we knew this wasn't a false-positive, which it appears to be). At least now we know his apparent date of death based on the article found (which WP:CALC allows). It says he died on Wednesday, and the article is from January 13, 2001 (a Saturday), so he died on January 10, 2001. Because Find-A-Grave is not a reliable source for its SPS information, we can't rely on it for "May 15, 1918" – though it's a great lead to find an actual RS. Also, it says he died on January 11, 2001 (Thursday), which is in conflict with the newspaper. We must go with the newspaper (if the Find-A-Grave information is even to be considered) as between the two.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 15:08, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

I fixed the draft to say that he died in January 2001, as the newspaper said. White Arabian Filly (Neigh) 15:30, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Would this count as a reliable source re: birth and death dates? --LukeSurl ^{t c} 17:36, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

uploading picture failed

Hello, I made my introduction to the Tea House but see that my picture is mentioned as a file name, but not displayed. I hope someone can help me out on this. (The picture was uploaded to Wiki Commons already). Wagfermwp (talk) 08:29, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Welcome to the Teahouse Wagfermwp. I see the picture at Wikipedia:Teahouse/Guests/Left column#Wagfermwp. —teb728 t c 09:24, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Hi Wagfermwp. commons:File:Rob Nout P1020686.JPG wasn't displayed because it has upper case JPG while you wrote jpg at Wikipedia:Teahouse/Guests/Left column#Wagfermwp. File:Rob Nout P1020686.jpg has the right name but was uploaded after your edit to Wikipedia:Teahouse/Guests/Left column. In such cases, the page may need a purge to be rendered again. It has been rerendered by now, also Wikipedia:Teahouse/Guests. PrimeHunter (talk) 10:36, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your help Wagfermwp (talk) 13:10, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Relax Listen Submission (Re: Robert McClenon editorial comment)

Hi. How do I make an entry about a musicians work without it being mistaken for a biography? Also the references that can be supplied to prove that these works exist are not only the artists website but also online stores such as iTunes, Amazon, Google Play, Microsoft music store etc, it is not my intention that this article is to be used to advertise only as a reference. I have based the article around a discography, what else is needed? Any help in resolving this would be much appreciatedRelaxlisten (talk) 21:18, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

You ask how you can make an entry about a musician's work without it being mistaken for a biograph. The answer is by not using the same name for your user account as the musician. Either you are Relax Listen, in which case it is an autobiography, or you are not Relax Listen, in which case you should request a change in user name. Also, you say that the references that these works exist are not only the artist's web site but also online stores. You didn't cite on-line stores, but on-line stores are not reliable sources as to musical notability anyway. You need multiple third-party independent reliable sources. You also need to address the username issue. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:25, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

Proving something exists is not very relevant for Wikipedia, Relaxlisten: not everything that exists merits an article (and, in fact, some things that don't exist do merit articles, eg Unicorns). You need to show that reliable independent sources have talked about the subject, not just mentioned or listed it. --ColinFine (talk) 23:21, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

The first and most important task of the writer of a Wikipedia article about a musical performer, band or group is to demonstrate, through the references in the article, that the topic meets our notability guideline for musical performers. Shortcomings in articles about indisputably notable performers can easily be overcome by routine editing. On the other hand, nothing can save an article about a performer who does not meet that guideline. When I did a quick search for sources about Relax Listen, I found plenty of social media sources controlled by the performer, but no significant coverage in independent sources. It is all about the quality and depth of coverage in independent, reliable sources. Everything else is secondary. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 08:00, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Citing at what level?

I am in the process of authoring my first Wikipedia page, and I think I am now in the groove as to how to do this the right way. Where I am stumped is understanding at what level citing is required?

For example, let's say I have a paragraph of facts (distinct and separate from each other) which need to be cited, and I am able to find a single reliable source which addresses all of these facts. Do I have to cite each sentence? Or can I simply place one citation at the end of the paragraph? Please advise.

Thank you!

gggoodgggirlGggoodgggirl (talk) 20:43, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Hello again, Gggoodgggirl. As a general rule, if a single reliable source verifies all the assertions in the paragraph, then a single reference to that source at the end of the paragraph is sufficient. The most common exception is a direct quotation, which must have a reference at the end of the quote. It may be a good idea to immediately reference highly controversial assertions as well. You can used named references to easily use a reference several times without clogging the reference list with multiple identical references. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 21:34, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Thank you so much, Cullen. Your recommendations have been extremely helpful. I have started to go through my article with a "citation lens" and am correcting and/or restating things accordingly.

I am trying to re-use my references as much as possible, as to your point, the reference list seems to grow quickly. I found a few places where I accidentally added the same reference a second time, and will go through and correct those as I continue to edit.

I do have another question regarding citations. I think you may have read the draft of my article and there is a reference to a luncheon with Harry S. Truman. I am struggling to find any "independent reliable resources" pertaining to this event, but what if I have a picture of them together in the restaurant? Or an original letter from Truman to my dad referencing their lunch together? If I were to publish them online somewhere, could I then cite them for reference?

Appreciate your feedback.

gggoodgggirlGggoodgggirl (talk) 22:49, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Hello, Gggoodgggirl. Only if you were to get them published by an organ with a reputation for editorial control, I'm afraid (and it wouldn't need to be online). Anybody can post a picture or a copy of a letter online, and there is no way that a reader next week or next month or next year can determine its origin or authenticity. --ColinFine (talk) 23:08, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Gggoodgggirl, I agree with what ColinFine wrote. Unless a reliable source wrote about the Truman luncheon, explaining its historical importance, there is nothing to be gained by mentioning it on Wikipedia. Presidents, after all, have lunch 365 days a year, as most people do. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 23:55, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments. I still may be able to find an independent reliable source, but will remove the section from my article until I do.

One point of debate, however, is that from the article's standpoint, it is not about whether the event was significant for Truman, but rather if it was significant for the author being recognized by Truman for his work. Assuming the author meet's WP's definition of "notability", wouldn't recognition by the president of the united states be of historical importance to the author's life?

Not intending to be argumentative, just trying to unravel the logic.

gggoodgggirlGggoodgggirl (talk) 00:35, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

Probably yes, Gggoodgggirl. But in Wikipediaworld, "notable" and "significant" do not have much to do with each other. If a fact has not been discussed in reliable published sources, then it has not been noted, and it should not appear in an article. (We don't usually talk about "notable" for individual pieces of information, only for subjects of articles, but that principle seems to apply). Separately, there is the question about whether information is encyclopaedic or not; i.e., appropriate for a particular article. Even events which are recorded in reliable sources are not necessarily encyclopaedic; that luncheon may well be, though. --ColinFine (talk) 00:43, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

Hi Gggoodgggirl. I was able to find this source, which does not verify a luncheon but does confirm that they met and during what period in his writing (so that's all it can be cited for). Without going to a library, it's a bit difficult to provide full attribution in the citation because the snippet view is from a book that is a compendium of journal articles and you can't tell from it the month, year, where it appeared in the original, and so forth. I got the article's author and title though from the information provided by the google search result before clicking on it. You might use this imperfect citation form:

<ref>{{cite book|last=Cooper|first=Barbara Roisman|title=The Baker Street Journal|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=unwrAQAAIAAJ|year=2004|publisher=Fordham University Press|chapter=Strolling Down Baker Street with Jerome Coopersmith|page=37}}</ref>

Best regards--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 14:12, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Thank you SO much Fuhghettaboutit! I may have found this eventually, but I was preparing to remove the reference from my article. This helps me so much, I really appreciate it.

gggoodgggirlGggoodgggirl (talk) 14:47, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

You're most welcome Gggoodgggirl. You do not need to use the citation in the form I proposed, but the manner you cited it left out what I consider one of the key pieces of attribution: the name of the article (Strolling Down Baker Street with Jerome Coopersmith). Certainly it was a bastardization on my part to list that title next to the "chapter" parameter, just as your use of the "last" parameter was to list something other than a first name, and use of "first" for the whole name, but formatting is so irrelevant compared to providing our readers with the maximum information to locate a source themselves to allow verification.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 15:46, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps {{cite magazine}} might be an option? - David Biddulph (talk) 16:03, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Thank you again, Fuhghettaboutit. It was not my intent to dismiss your recommended cite formula... in fact I appreciated it greatly and copied it off line as a reference. Being that I am learning, I really wanted to attempt to create my own citation using the form/template provided by WP. I found the ability to add new form fields and thus included the chapter reference. I will also look at the Cite Magazine form, provided by David Biddulph, to see if it is more fitting, but I think the way I have it now is close to representing what is needed. And according to other contributors to this discussion, the cite does not actually need to be online, as long as it is accurate. In this case I do think that including online visibility helps to provide validity to readers.

Now I am anxious to know if this article will actually be accepted once I submit it for review, but that is a whole other conversation!

gggoodgggirlGggoodgggirl (talk) 16:35, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Hello, Gggoodgggirl. I've just taken a very brief look at User:Gggoodgggirl/sandbox/Jerome Coopersmith. I think that you need to be careful to avoid plagiarism and/or copyright violation. The words "the Czech actor who escaped from his country during World War II, and then was imprisoned in America during the days of the McCarthy witch hunt" are copied directly from the source that you have cited, for example. Perhaps that's the only instance, but I thought I should point it out. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:25, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Thank you Cordless Larry for that call-out. My challenge is that I am leveraging my father's own notes for some of this content and am finding that some of the copy is identical to that which he shared with publishers or submitted as official descriptions for his teleplays. I have updated that section to read differently, and as I continue to edit I am checking things very carefully to remove any unintended duplication. I have to say that I find it an interesting challenge! I do welcome the feedback, so thank you again.

gggoodgggirlGggoodgggirl (talk) 20:18, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Just to clarify, Gggoodgggirl, since by saying "...the cite does not actually need to be online, as long as it is accurate. In this case I do think that including online visibility helps to provide validity to readers", you imply my issue with not including the title is an online accessibility issue; it is exactly the opposite. If you went to a library looking for the book, and even more pertinently, could not locate the compendium book but had a stack of the print journals in your hand, the title of the article would be the most key piece of information you would need to find it – especially where as here, we don't know from the book information the month and year of the journal included, so we don't know which edition of The Baker Street Journal it's from.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 03:39, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Hello again Fuhghettaboutit,

I actually did not intend to imply that at all. My comment about cites being online or offline was completely independent of what details should be included. I agree that as much info should be provided so that people can find the information if they look for it. In fact, as I review/edit my draft I am finding that some of my cites did not capture the page # or chapter, or other detail, and I am going through that now to correct it.

But this leads to another question. If some of the cites are not online, or cannot be accessed with subscribing to a service, how will that affect the article review and approval process? One example, is the Jack Gould quote about Coopersmith from within a New York Times article. My cite points to the article, but you cannot read the part of the article where his quote exists unless you subscribe the the New York Times.

I welcome continued thoughts, ideas, and feedback!

gggoodgggirlGggoodgggirl (talk) 14:19, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Image and logo uploading

Hi,

I am currently struggling with understanding how logogs are uploaded on wikipages. I understand the issue of copyrights etc. and went ahead and upload a logo I found on a public article, however this too was removed by Wikipedia.

How do I go about this issue? I thought it was OK to upload images onto Wiki Commons that were either used in published articles or taking myself.

Thanks in advance!

Finivino1000 (talk) 05:53, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Hi Finivino1000. See Wikipedia:Logos for an overview of logos. You upload it to Wikipedia (not Commons except in the highly usual case where a logo is not under copyright). You tag it with {{non-free logo}} and use {{non-free use rationale logo}} for the required non-free use rationale. The reason your logo was deleted was that you uploaded it to Commons, which does not accept non-free content. —teb728 t c 07:03, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Hi Finivino1000. teb728's reply is absolutely right, and there are a couple of other things you should attend to for a non-free (i.e. copyrighted) logo. Firstly, you need to produce a low-resolution version of it that would not be suitable for printing etc - certainly no more than 100,000 pixels in total, preferably much less. Secondly, the image can only be used once at the top of the article, usually in the Infobox, "for the purpose of visual identification". Thirdly, the image can only be uploaded AFTER the article "goes live" in Article space (not draft, user page, etc). Finally, the easiest way to upload it to Wikipedia is to look at the left hand side of this screen, under "Tools" to "Upload file" - follow the steps and fill in all the blanks.--Gronk Oz (talk) 12:19, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

And BTW, you're completely wrong about images from published articles. They are still under copyright and cannot be used except under the non-free-use conditions described above. Rojomoke (talk) 13:44, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Hello Finivino1000. I see you posted the same question at the Help desk, and they sent you back here. Please to not post the same question at multiple forums because that wastes the effort of helpers. If there is something you don’t understand about the replies here, please say below what is not clear, and we will explain. OR if you post the url of where you found the logo, I or someone else will be glad to upload it for you. —teb728 t c 08:47, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

OK Finivino1000. It’s easier to upload a logo than describe; so I did it for you:

• I downloaded the logo from the Sula website to my PC and changed the white text to the orange of the graphic (because white would not show up against the light background of the article).
• I clicked on Upload file in the left sidebar of any page and then clicked “Click here to start the Upload Wizard”
• I filled out the form, selecting “This is a copyrighted, non-free work, but I believe it is Fair Use” and “This is a logo of an organization, company, brand, etc” and clicked upload.

The Upload Wizard even took care of the templates for me. See File:Sulawines logo.png for the result. —teb728 t c 01:16, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for all the help and apologies for posting the same question on two different forums. I am still new to wikipedia and didn't know that I posted it twice!

Also, thank you teb788 for uploading the logo. I now understand that it had to be modified got uploading due to the copyright issue!

Finivino1000 (talk) 04:51, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

My newly edited page received a "speedy deletion" - how do I remedy this?

I want to know what I've overlooked in terms of guidelines. It has been seen as meeting criteria for speedily deletion for "lack of asserted importance". However, the subject of Epoch Collapse, I consider to be of significance as it is a multimedia and music project (or band) that is contributing to genres in music that are still developing and expanding significantly. There are a number of online releases listed on the page that have some cultural value and a reference (and link) to an article that has been published on The Kubrick Site, I can hardly see that that is lacking in importance. I see the page as an ongoing work and to be updated frequently. Perhaps there is data missing that is deemed necessary to give weight to its significance, yes? Please clarify as to why, and what I may need to add or delete to remedy this so my page is not deleted. Thank you. The page is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epoch_Collapse Darvek (talk) 08:16, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

The problem is that your only reference doesn't even mention the subject of the article. Deletion will go ahead unless you can find reliable sources where the subject has been written about. Start searching, and add these references to the article as quickly as you can. Dbfirs 08:25, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

You mean the external link reference of the Kubrick Site? Darvek (talk) 09:13, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

I deleted the references section altogether, as the item under writings, articles, essays was sufficient. However, now the page is alerting me as to "Someone else has changed this page since you started editing it, resulting in an edit conflict." How can that be? Darvek (talk) 09:36, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

References are absolutely needed. The article will be kept or deleted based not on writings, articles, and essays but on what significant coverage in independent reliable sources say about the subject as cited in the references. —teb728 t c 09:49, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Is it possible to resurrect the page if I furnish the items necessary? Do I need to start from scratch again? Darvek (talk) 09:56, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

At this point the OP deleted the section; so presumably they are not expecting a reply — Preceding unsigned comment added by Teb728 (talk • contribs) 11:08, 27 January 2016‎ (UTC)

The original poster can request undeletion at Requests for Undeletion, which will move the article back into user space. They should only do that if they plan to address the issues that caused the deletion. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:13, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

There is a belief among some inexperienced editors that it may be a good idea to delete the references section if issues are raised about references. Issues about references are not addressed by deleting the references, only by improving them. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:13, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Update: I wrote to the user on his page and e-mailed him his article. I got no reply :-( but I see now that he's working on it in his sandbox. Good that he wasn't completely discouraged, I was worried when I saw him remove his question.[1] The moral of this story is that it's very sensible for new users to hurry up and enable their e-mail, it simplifies everything. :-) Bishonen | talk 11:04, 29 January 2016 (UTC).

I've reinstated the references, added more, and improved them. But now I've been having problems inserting the "jump ups" into the correct positions (next to the numbers to the references. I can't see any way of doing this.

58.162.208.86 (talk) 06:43, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

The way of referencing the material in the article is by footnotes, and advice on how to add them is at referencing for beginners. --David Biddulph (talk) 11:11, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

I'm well aware that references are essential - it was a temporary edit in order to clean things up. But it turned out that someone jumped in for a "speedy deletion" before I could go back and edit them back in with improvements. 58.162.208.86 (talk) 06:46, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Sula Vineyards Wiki Page Text

Hi,

I edited a page a few weeks ago, and over this weekend there were a few changed made to it (mostly the images) and today there is an advert at the top of the page stating that the article does not contain text from a neutral point of view. I have gone over the editing and I cannot find any evidence of anybody editing the text of the article. And since the text has been up for a while, I was wondering why there is a warning all of a sudden?

Could someone please help me with this or go over the text and check what the problem might be?

Thanks!

Finivino1000 (talk) 06:15, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

It is always wise to provide a wikilink to the article about which you are asking. In this case it is presumably Sula Vineyards? --David Biddulph (talk) 11:02, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Hi Finivino1000. Did you see the history page and the talk page, Talk:Sula Vineyards? The history shows who has been editing the page. And the talk page includes a comment on why the article may look like an advert. —teb728 t c 11:21, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Music sample

In editing how to add music sample in an article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ishanbull (talk • contribs) 04:25, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

First you need to get the music file and upload it, either to Wikipedia (if it's not copyright-free and is being used under fair use) or to Wikimedia Commons (if the file has a free licence), then you can link to the file from the article. Once you've done that, you can link to the file from the article.

File:BullyOfTheTown.ogg

For example, if I uploaded a file as File:BullyOfTheTown.ogg, then the code [[File:BullyOfTheTown.ogg|right]] produces the sample you see on the right. This works whether the file is uploaded to Wikipedia or Wikimedia Commons (this particular file is at Commons).

The full process is described at Help:Files.

Hope that helps! —me_and 10:25, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

How i share my page to facebook with thumbnail

Help me — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fuad Hasan Maruf (talk • contribs) 05:36, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

If you just post a link to a page on Facebook, Facebook will normally add the thumbnail for you. —me_and 10:17, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Page deleted but any link to solve the problem isn't working. Help. Please. Someone. Anyone.

Hi. I am new to using wikipedia. So, please forgive my ignorance. A page was created about me by fans of some tv shows I was an Executive Producer on. It's been up for a decade I'd guess and suddenly it's not there anymore. I assume some wonderful fans of the shows put it up for me. My business partner's page is up. When I did a search I had a page come up that had some discussions which I later realized must have been a discussion about taking it down -- I don't think it had been edited in a while and I had no idea that was necessary. Anyway, any link (I think there was a red link under my name on other pages) disappeared and I could never get back to the discussion page no matter how many archived and deleted links I clicked on. For my business and considering I am still Executive PRoducing every year, it would be helpful to get it undeleted (but those links didn't work either). Can anyone help me?

Thanks, Kelly Souders — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kelly Souders (talk • contribs) 06:51, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Hi Kelly! You're right that the article has been deleted. There was a discussion where other editors decided that you don't meet Wikipedia's notability requirements to have an article about you. We can undelete the page, but for you to have a page in the main Wikipedia, you do need to meet either the general notability guidline or the Notability (people) guideline.

If you think you do meet those guidelines, and can provide the reliable, independent sources to back that up, we can recreate an article for you, either writing a new one or resurrecting the deleted one. Having just had a quick look myself, all I could immediately find are things that mention you incidentally, or interviews with you rather than articles about you; neither of these normally count for establishing notability by Wikipedia's guidelines. That was only a very cursory search, though, so there may well be sufficient sources out there for a Wikipedia article.

For completeness, while Wikipedia does technically allow you to write an article about yourself, this is strongly discouraged, because it counts as a conflict of interest.

—me_and 10:16, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Getting some citations

Hello expert Wikipedia editors!

I'm having a lot of trouble citing the Heart#Symbolism paragraph in preparation for a good article nomination. I've been scratching my head for about a year as to how to approach this problem. The article is littered with statements like "The Chinese character for "heart", 心, derives from a comparatively realistic depiction of a heart (indicating the heart chambers) in seal script. The Chinese word xīn also takes the metaphorical meanings of "mind, intelligence", "soul", or "center, core". In Chinese medicine, the heart is seen as the center of 神 shén "spirit, soul, consciousness"." but I'm having a difficult time finding reliable sources to verify it. Any ideas? --Tom (LT) (talk) 06:43, 3 February 2016 (UTC)