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::::::The lack of internal consistency in the article becomes a problem. If we believe the sources saying Trump was the original name it follows that Trumpf on the immigration list was a clerical error. It then creates confusion describing the switch back to Trump as an anglifying (since Trump is as German as Trumpf). Secondly, Goemertz needs to tone it down and be less nasty as that in itself is an incentive to edit wars.--[[User:Batmacumba|Batmacumba]] ([[User talk:Batmacumba|talk]]) 16:20, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
::::::The lack of internal consistency in the article becomes a problem. If we believe the sources saying Trump was the original name it follows that Trumpf on the immigration list was a clerical error. It then creates confusion describing the switch back to Trump as an anglifying (since Trump is as German as Trumpf). Secondly, Goemertz needs to tone it down and be less nasty as that in itself is an incentive to edit wars.--[[User:Batmacumba|Batmacumba]] ([[User talk:Batmacumba|talk]]) 16:20, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

There are multiple books referring to the name Drumpf. Gwenda Blair, The Trumps: Three Generations of Builders and a Presidential Candidate Paperback – December 4, 2001 for example. There are more easily found, because its trivially googleable : https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=drumpf

Revision as of 17:25, 29 February 2016

What is the claim to notability?

I am not seeing much claim to notability here. Almost all of the coverage is based on his relationship to Donald Trump. I think a strong argument could be made that there is no real encyclopedic notability independent of his legitimately famous grandson. IMHO it boils down to this question; would we have an article about this man if Donald Trump had never been born? I think not. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:34, 25 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Did Donald Trump have any effect on Frederick Trump doing the things he did? No. Donald Trump wasn't born until 28 years after Frederick died; Frederick would have still done all the things he did had Donald never been born. While most sources on Frederick Trump at least mention Donald, they cover Frederick's actions in enough depth for him to be notable. Also, it's inappropriate to tag this article now; wait until it's not linked to from the main page. pbp 19:54, 25 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
(Copied from my talk page for continuity of discussion.) I have no objection to removing the tag while the article is linked on the main page and point in fact I should have waited. But the question is not whether he would have still done the things he did, but whether they would be considered worthy of any significant attention. As far as I can tell the coverage he has gotten is almost entirely based on his relationship to Donald. Once you eliminate that, I don't see much that separates him from any of the other millions of small business men of the late 19th century. -Ad Orientem (talk) 20:27, 25 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Ad Orientem:: If a small businessman did things similar to Trump/Drumpf, and had as much source material about him as Trumpf/Drumpf does, it would probably be kept if created, even if he didn't have a connection to a celebrity. pbp 16:45, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Then there should be ample in depth WP:RS source coverage independent of Donald Trump. And maybe there is, though I rather doubt it. I admit that I have not combed through archived newspapers from the late 19th century. If such coverage can be found I will happily withdraw my concerns. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:50, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Samuel Bush & Alois Hitler both have very clear and strong claims to notability. Lawrence Washington does not. I can't see any claim to notability beyond his blood relationship to his obviously notable grandson. See WP:NOTGENEALOGY. -Ad Orientem (talk) 15:47, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • What Milowent said, a Hitler analogy has never been more apt. Friedrich Drumpf's entry offers deeper context to what would would otherwise be just an intriguing one-liner in his grandson's entry. Drumpf's life is significantly more colorful than the "millions" of businessman of his era. Article is also well-written and sourced. Keep. Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 11:58, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The Hitler analogy is quite poor actually. Hitler has a very strong claim to notability because of his direct influence on his infamous son. Samuel Bush was a powerful and highly influential man in his own right and more than meets the standards for an article. The Washington Article is very weak and I see nothing there that meets WP:BASIC. In any event this is a moot point since other stuff exists but notability is WP:NOTINHERITED. -Ad Orientem (talk) 15:47, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The name change (Drumpf-->Trump) is significant, the more so because Donald's father went on to obscure the family's German heritage, and Donald himself promoted the family's Swedish heritage myth as late as 1990. With multiple sources debunking the Swedish heritage myth, isn't it of use to have an NPOV article, with multiple RS sources, giving the man's true biography? Donald himself (in The Art of the Deal) intimated that Frederick died of alcohol-related causes, so it is useful to discover he was, in fact, a 1918 flu victim. His return to Germany and later return to the US is also of interest, and with his success in the Klondike, sets him apart from the crowd. I don't understand why Alois' influence on Adolf conveys more significance to his life than Frederick's influence (as a budding real estate investor) on Fred Jr. That's for Dr. Freud to decide, not us... In any event it is interesting that Trump's hotelier legacy goes back two generations, and that there's a self-promotional element in Frederick Trump as well, writing to a local paper drawing attention to his inn's louche reputation and standards. At the end of the day, I don't think this article would have merited DYK promotion if it lacked notability. We'll see what others say. Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 16:11, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia is not here to debunk or verify genealogical claims by notable persons. To the extent there is some strong relevance it should be covered in the main article about the notable entity. The criteria is really very simple. We don't do articles about people who lack a claim to independent notability. This doesn't preclude articles about someone who is related to a notable person. They just have to be notable in their own right. Alois Hitler falls into that category and so does Donald Trump's father who is clearly independently notable. Frederick Trump looks highly doubtful to me. And Lawrence Washington (see above) is such an obvious and glaring case of genealogy that I have sent it to AfD. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:20, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This is better sourced than Lawrence, though. You could probably get Lawrence deleted on notability/sourcing grounds alone. pbp 17:04, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
in my opinion ,there'senough public interest to show notability. But the place to determine this is AfD. DGG ( talk ) 17:12, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I agree subject is not notable. This is also an example of WP:RECENTISM. The above discussion shows that. The fact that Donald apparently didn't know much about his grandfather, shows how not notable he is. I would suggest an AfD after Trump loses or withdraws from the presidential race. If he becomes president I think an AfD is unlikely to succeed.--Jack Upland (talk) 01:16, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Jack Upland: I think you're misreading RECENTISM. It's not like the articles that have already been released will go away when Hillary or Bernie beats Trump. If you're notable at one particular point in time, you're notable at all points afterward. This article would fail recentism if a disproportionate amount of information in the article was about things that happened, say, since Donald starting running for President. Nearly all of this article about events that are 100 years old. pbp 02:54, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No, I think recentism sums it up: an article with "flimsy, transient merits" created because of a recent "spike" in "public attention" on the Trump family. This article was only created in September, and most of the sources date from this year.--Jack Upland (talk) 03:31, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think you're taking that quote out of context, @Jack Upland:. Recentism spikes are about people who receive transient coverage in 2015 for something they did in 2015. Also, you're ignoring the book from the year 2000. pbp 17:37, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The fact that Donald apparently didn't know much about his grandfather, shows how not notable he is."
  1. if Donald doesn't find it notable, its not notable.
  2. if Donald doesn't know it, its not worth noting.
  3. if Donald claims something happened, it did.
  4. if Donald says Americans will be tired of winning when he wins, it is true.
Let's test this proposed notability standard in a few AfDs. I'm off to add him as the winner of United States presidential election, 2016 citing WP:DONALD ("He reported that he will win.").
--Milowent • hasspoken 20:45, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

And I'm accused of taking things out of context.--Jack Upland (talk) 23:28, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Milowent simply reduced one of the things you said to absurdity, @Jack Upland:, as is his want. In case it wasn't clear why Donald was unfamiliar/in denial about his German heritage for portions of his life, it was because Fred Jr. (Donald's dad) hid his German ancestry at a time (during the World Wars) when being of German ancestry was controversial. Milowent's general point is that Donald Trump alone doesn't determine notability, reliable sources do. pbp 00:34, 24 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Some opinions don't have to be distorted to be absurd.--Jack Upland (talk) 00:44, 24 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
One such opinion is that an article about a guy who's been dead for 97 years is recentist. pbp 04:14, 24 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Bavarian town of Kallstadt?

The article says: “Drumpf was born in the old Bavarian town of Kallstadt where his family worked in a vineyard.“ As far as I know, there is no Kallstadt in Bavaria. The link opens the WP lemma of a town in Rhineland-Palatinate. The other one is in Hesse. Any details on this matter?--Einar Moses Wohltun (talk) 11:59, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

By the time Frederick was born, Kallstadt was located in the Palatinate exclave of the Kingdom of Bavaria, hence “old Bavarian town” in the description. Rhineland-Palatinate just came into being after World War II.--MaGioZal (talk) 17:27, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"Drumpf" never existed

Baptism certificate: [1] --Goetzmertz (talk) 21:30, 8 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Other listeners, do you believe this to be accurate? I'm not sure I do, because a number of sources refer to him as Drumpf. pbp 02:44, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This may be an accurate record, enough of the information matches up to be quite likely. But I'd want to see the image scan of the actual record, which is not available except on microfilm. It is original research in any event. It is not sufficient to overrule the "Drumpf" information; German script can be hard to decipher.--Milowent • hasspoken 20:49, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
There is also the Crolly article that names him as Trump.--Jack Upland (talk) 23:33, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Jack Upland: At what point in his life, though? pbp 23:40, 2 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"Nein, Opa Friedrich war 1885 aus Deutschland ausgewandert. Und er hieß auch schon immer Trump, nie Drumpf, auch wenn sich diese Falschinformation hartnäckig hält." No, Grandpa Friedrich emigrated from Germany in 1885. And he was always called Trump, never Drumpf, though this misinformation persists.--Jack Upland (talk) 00:40, 3 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It is so funny. This is the result if you search "Drumpf" in the telephone book Das Telefonbuch: search "Drumpf". Search result: "Wir konnten zu Ihrer Eingabe keine Einträge finden" translated "No entries for your input" --Goetzmertz (talk) 20:11, 3 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I am willing to concede that it is likely he was born a Trump, and as such, @Goetzmertz:, you will have no further argument from me if you make changes to that effect at this page, at Donald Trump, or at pages related to them. pbp 20:59, 3 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The family name changed from Drumpf to Trump between 1648 and 1700 according to The Trumps: Three Generations that Built an Empire, already cited by the article. This man was born much later and is therefore unlikely to have ever been known as Drumpf. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.0.151.9 (talk) 22:43, 6 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Actually it was sometime in mid 1640's -or during the course of Germany's Thirty Years' War that ended in 1648, according to that source. So Friedrich, born in 1869 would never have used Drumpf, nor his father Christian Johannes as the spelling change would have happened nearly 200 years before his time even! 1305cj (talk) 14:00, 29 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The article should still note the error because it is prevalent.--Jack Upland (talk) 23:25, 6 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I still think the error should be noted somewhere in the article. Didn't Donald Trump claim it was Drumpf himself? Does anyone have a source?--Jack Upland (talk) 00:17, 2 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]


Knock off the childish zeal to modify the article just because the translation of the word provides a chuckle. Just because you hate Trump and watch "IT'S CURRENT YEAR" Oliver last night doesn't mean to need to go modifying article of people you politically dislike. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:6000:8B09:7E00:A101:662B:79BC:1492 (talk) 16:47, 29 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Seems like...

Seems like lots of research on an ancestor of a front-running US Presidential candidate, and this clearly makes fodder for journalists who are questioning that person, who insists that he be treated fairly.MaynardClark (talk) 02:50, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I don't particularly see Drumpf/Trump as a bias-laden campaign issue or "fodder for journalists". I think this ancestor is now independently notable thanks to significant media coverage. That Donald Trump himself has written (incorrectly) about his family emigrating from Sweden, not Germany, gives weight to keeping this article as a factual corrective. Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 21:28, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Can someone please explain this line

Can someone please explain this line? "His son Fred Trump later invented a Swedish origin, the name Drumpf and Karlstad[1] as Trump's birthplace" I don't understand how the article first indicates the Drumpf and his birthplace of Kallstad as fact but then says he invented it. Also says it's a German town but he invented a Swedish origin along with the name and the town. None of this makes sense.


172.218.225.97 (talk) 23:20, 2 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@172.218.225.97:: I have reworded that sentence. Hope it makes sense now. pbp 23:37, 2 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

What is the source for this assertion?66.147.75.34 (talk) 15:57, 8 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The Blair book. pbp 16:27, 8 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

So funny! Trump since 17th century

Since 17th only Trump in Kallstadt, no Drumps to find. His father Johannes named Trump. The sister of Johannes Charlotte Luise Trump, was the grandmother of Henry J. Heinz. Just read sources, not the Fox News styled. ;-)) --Goetzmertz (talk) 10:02, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I agree: Simply look at the two references given in the beginning of the article (Crolly, Blair); both state that Friedrich Trump has never been called Drumpf in his life, and Blair explains that the whole family changed their spelling from Drumpf to Trump in the course of the 17th (!) century. I urge the other contributors not to continue inserting this debunked myth into the article, especially when you give no sources for your edits. I will rework the initial sentence once again in order to make it compatible with the given references. --Andropov (talk) 19:15, 2 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The Drumpf story is prevalent. It would be good to indicate where this came from, I think.--Jack Upland (talk) 02:04, 3 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, but as you would like to mention it, I ask you to provide material on this. --Andropov (talk) 08:37, 3 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure where the error originated. It would be good to add it in if anyone has information.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:48, 3 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As the error keeps on being inserted into the article, it would be good to document it, as the Swede story is documented. If we did say something about the error, it would stop people thinking they are improving the article by inserting it again. Blair explains that the name was changed in the 17th century, but doesn't appear to say where the modern claim came from. Does anyone have a source?--Jack Upland (talk) 18:49, 14 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The lack of internal consistency in the article becomes a problem. If we believe the sources saying Trump was the original name it follows that Trumpf on the immigration list was a clerical error. It then creates confusion describing the switch back to Trump as an anglifying (since Trump is as German as Trumpf). Secondly, Goemertz needs to tone it down and be less nasty as that in itself is an incentive to edit wars.--Batmacumba (talk) 16:20, 27 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There are multiple books referring to the name Drumpf. Gwenda Blair, The Trumps: Three Generations of Builders and a Presidential Candidate Paperback – December 4, 2001 for example. There are more easily found, because its trivially googleable : https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=drumpf

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