Talk:White-shoe firm

Archives (Index)

2011 2012 2014 2015 2016 2017 2019

This page is archived by ClueBot III.

Weil, Gotshal Manges

I removed Weil, Gotshal Manges from the examples list. With regards to law firms the white shoe brigade were overtly WASP institutions that until at least the Second World War had anti-semitic hiring policies. "Jewish firms" like Weil, Gotshal and Skadden Arps were set up in opposition to the White Shoe firms, so while their current success rivals or exceeds many of the old WASP firms they are non the less not white shoe firms. 129.67.157.172 (talk) 01:41, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Just because two news reports refer to Weil as a white shoe firm, this does not make it one. White shoe is a historic and social construct which is probably best defined by a those within the legal profession. No one would tell you that Weil is white shoe. I believe it was founded as late as 1931 and perhaps not even on Wall Street. Which bank was it connected to anyway? None strikes in my mind, its big in BANKRUPTCY which was traditionally what white shoe firms shunned. It should be removed, any thoughts? Take a vote? --Mediterraneo (talk) 18:32, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

   FYI, Skadden wasn't a "Jewish firm". While it was formed as an alternative to the white shoe firms, it was formed by three white shoe renegades, not by jews. In addition to Weil, the other historically great jewish firm was Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison. 141.211.81.236 (talk) 04:12, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I suppose the reputation of Skadden as a "Jewish firm" stems from the fame of Joseph Flom, the longest-lived of the named partners and probably the most renowned. And its precisely because the firm was an anti-white-shoe-establishment-type that it was open to hiring non-WASPs elites, and therefore earned its "Jewish" association. 220.255.2.25 (talk) 06:06, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

"New" White shoe firms

I added the section called "New" white shoe firms in hopes of resolving the ongoing discussion here. I think the most productive thing is to get some of these comments on the actually page so that readers can understand the distinction between the historical origins and use of the term versus the current, more laissez-faire, use the term. The fact is that the NY Times and other respected publications use the term to apply to Skadden, Weil and others, so it would be silly for the page not to address that. I think it can be done while fully explaining the history of the original select group and also paying respect to the obstacles that the founders of the newer firms often faced on their paths to success. Epeesi (talk) 01:06, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

This seems sensible. Though we should say that isn't white-shoe associated with those firms that have strong relationships with an old-line bank? or am I imagining this association?, e.g. Shearman with Citibank, Milbank with Chase.

Next question, isn't White & Case white shoe? It should be added.

--Mediterraneo (talk) 02:28, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I think the section qualifies as original research. --70.23.131.232 (talk) 02:33, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

How on earth is Alston and Bird a "New" White shoe firm? They are based in Atlanta, consistently ranked in the 80s for the top 100 law firms, and don't do work for any of the top Wall Street clients. At least the other "New" White shoe firms can argue that they are as elite as the old white shoe firms. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.39.212.65 (talk) 18:04, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Is Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher LLP an old or a new white show firm, because it is in both list. --89.204.139.74 (talk) 07:44, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Management Consulting

I'm not sure whether Bain is a white shoe company. BCG and Booz are listed although they both are no white shoe firms. I'm pretty sure I have often read about McK as a white shoe firm.

None of the consulting firms are technically classified as WSFs in literature and historical - not even MBB. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.140.5.249 (talk) 04:12, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Management consulting firms, even the MBBs, were never labelled as "white shoe". This is because as a profession or industry sector, management consulting only arose at the earliest in the 1920s (AT Kearney, McKinsey) and only started taking off post-WWII. The term white-shoe had always only applied to the traditional banks and law firms that provided professional services to the NY-centric financial sector. In fact if you notice, most of the prestigious (by today's reckoning) consulting firms were/are founded and headquartered outside of NYC. AlphaBet678 (talk) 06:15, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

DLA Piper

Does anyone really think DLA Piper, a verein firm with low productivity per lawyer is a white shoe firm? I am going to take it out. Feedback welcome of course. JustinReilly (talk) 20:11, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

LOL DLA Piper white shoe? It had its origins in three smallish, regional UK law firms and only grew through mergers in the past decade or so with similarly-smallish American counterparts. AlphaBet678 (talk) 07:03, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Charmed Circle

As I understood it, the "White Shoe" term was synonymous with the Charmed Circle of Wall Street old genteel firms. This group was generally considered as including the following 7 firms:

Cadwalader Wickersham & Taft; Cravath Swaine & Moore; Davis Polk & Wardwell; Millbank Tweed Hadley & McCloy; Shearman & Sterling; Simpson Thacher & Bartlett; and Sullivan & Cromwell.

White & Case was often included in the group in the same way that Herbert Smith is often regarded as a member of the Magic Circle. However White & Case is considerably younger in its origins then the other Charmed Circle firms. Perhaps it might be worth including a paragraph noting the historical Charmed Circle firms?

Perhaps Choate Hall & Stewart should be added to this list?

I would also suggest adding Wilmer Cutler Pickering Hale & Dorr to the list of new firms.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Wholenewlevelofcool (talk • contribs) 14:48, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Would dividing up the law firms by city (e.g. New York, Boston, Washington, etc.) and then by specific groupings (e.g. the Charmed Circle mentioned above) not provide more distilled information. As the other contributors have noted, each of the cities had specific hierarchies and cultures. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.26.57.220 (talk) 03:47, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to one external link on White shoe firm. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

• Attempted to fix sourcing for http://www.abc.net.au/news/indepth/featureitems/s1348134.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—^{cyberbot II}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 17:05, 12 January 2016 (UTC)