Talk:Anthropic principle/Archive 3: Difference between revisions
m Archiving 2 discussion(s) from Talk:Anthropic principle) (bot |
m Archiving 2 discussion(s) from Talk:Anthropic principle) (bot |
||
Line 125: | Line 125: | ||
There is request for comment about capitalization of the word ''universe'' at [[Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters#Capitalization of universe - request for comment]]. Please participate. <span style="background-color:#B7D9F9;padding:0px 3px;border-radius:3px">[[User:SchreiberBike|SchreiberBike]] <span style="border-left:1px solid #0E5CA4;padding-left:3px">[[User talk:SchreiberBike|talk]]</span></span> 00:29, 4 February 2015 (UTC) |
There is request for comment about capitalization of the word ''universe'' at [[Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters#Capitalization of universe - request for comment]]. Please participate. <span style="background-color:#B7D9F9;padding:0px 3px;border-radius:3px">[[User:SchreiberBike|SchreiberBike]] <span style="border-left:1px solid #0E5CA4;padding-left:3px">[[User talk:SchreiberBike|talk]]</span></span> 00:29, 4 February 2015 (UTC) |
||
== Notification of request for comment == |
|||
An RfC has been commenced at MOSCAPS [[Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters#Request for comment - Capitalise universe|Request for comment - Capitalise universe]]. |
|||
[[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 03:23, 22 March 2015 (UTC) |
|||
== Life can evolve in many Universes == |
|||
The Anthropic Principle may be a fallacious concept, since "evolutionary life" can evolve in many environments with sufficient complexity to allow (a) formation (b) imperfect time-wise reproduction (c) limits on smoothly time-wise declining resources required for such reproduction (evolution cannot take place if the pace of change is past the "organism"'s limits). In other words, there can be many forms of life that could evolve in many different universes with different physical laws. So long as those universes provide a base for any feasible form of life. For example we can replay the evolution of various conceptual forms of life inside computer systems, using multiple varying environments. Of course, for all that above, we depend an agreed concept to fit the word "life". So any partitioning of physics predicated on the Anthropic Principle and an ill-agreed definition of the concept of life might appear to be weakly based? <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Jjalexand|Jjalexand]] ([[User talk:Jjalexand|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Jjalexand|contribs]]) 14:06, 12 August 2013 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
|||
:Unfortunately there isn't "THE anthropic principle". There are a small number of weak forms of it, and a lot of stronger i.e. more disputable [[Anthropic_principle#Variants|variants]]. Any discussion of anthropic principles is not fruitful unless it is clear to all parties which principle is being discussed. It is also helpful if the person disputing "the" anthropic principle is not making up their own version. [[User:Highlander|Highlander]] ([[User talk:Highlander|talk]]) 10:10, 15 August 2013 (UTC) |
|||
On the multiverse; can there be any other versions of space-time which do not comply with the rules as we know them? How would they manifest themselves; if, for instance, energy had a different formulation, could matter come into being? Is matter a prerequisite for life? [[User:Storris|Storris]] ([[User talk:Storris|talk]]) 15:36, 04 May 2015 (UTC) |
Revision as of 00:01, 22 March 2016
This is an archive of past discussions about Anthropic principle. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
About whether stronger variants of the AP are controversial or not.
Gracefool, it's just been cited. I dunno if Highlander or Paddy are listening. I think "contingent upon empirical verification" means "not necessarily true". Otherwise, we know that everything stronger than WAP is controversial in the sense that they make extraordinary claims. If it's controversial, it's not a tautology. But I do not know which editor first wrote it nor what citation may be forthcoming. 70.109.187.95 (talk) 01:50, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
- Listen, even though I did not originally put that content in (I think either User:Highlander or User:PaddyLeahy did, and I'm pretty sure that they are physicists practicing the art), this commonly known fact about the anthropic principle: - WAP not controversial, SAP a little controversial, FAP and PAP quite controversial - is what it is. You demanded citations, I put some in. I dunno why you object to it so much, but it's factual and it's supported and it's your POV that is trying to weaken or obscure the meaning of it. The xAP has some measure of controversy attached to it unless x=W. It does because it makes claims that are not virtually tautological nor proven theorem. I don't get what the problem is, Gracefool. Can you bother to justify your changing of the content and meaning of the term here on the talk page before repeatedly changing it (apparently to suit your POV) in the article? 70.109.177.159 (talk) 02:26, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
- I'd say WAP < SAP < PAP < FAP, where WAP is uncontroversial and virtually no-one apart from Barrow and Tipler accepts FAP. Loosely you could say that if something is uncontroversial then stating it is a tautology, e.g. "football is a game" is uncontroversial = obvious = a tautology. But I don't really support that line of thinking, so I don't think the WAP is a tautology. As for the sentence in question "Stronger variants of the anthropic principle are not tautologies and thus make claims considered controversial by some and that are contingent upon empirical verification", seems to say that anything which is not a tautology is controversial which is clearly wrong. I suggest we separate out the ideas of something being controversial, something being a tautology, and something requiring proof. Hope that helps Aarghdvaark (talk) 04:09, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
- Well, the point I was trying to make is that the WAP is uncontroversial because it is a tautology or virtually a tautology. Football might be a ball (instead of a game). But observing requires at least one observer, as a consequence of the premise. A fantasy (that I would think would be controversial in scientific circles) is an observer observing physical conditions that preclude the observer's physical existence. I don't agree (even loosely) that an uncontroversial statement is tautological (say "Killing innocent children is bad.") A sorta non-trivial value judgment (about what makes for "bad" and what does not) has to be first made. But "Dead people are not alive" should not be controversial and should not need external proof. 71.169.188.105 (talk) 04:43, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
- I think WAP is uncontroversial whether or not it is a tautology. What does "virtually a tautology" mean? I take it to mean that WAP is therefore not a tautology. As regards your example of an observer, I can't help pointing out that an angel observing someone's life here is observing the physical although they're not supposed to be physical themselves - damn, there goes another can of worms. Aarghdvaark (talk) 07:36, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
- My working meaning of "tautology" is a statement that is trivially true because the predicate of the statement is the same as the premise of the statement. "Dead birds are not living" is pretty much tautological. "Dodo birds are not living", while factual, is not tautological. Some research or finding of fact must be made to confirm it.
- It is semantically possible to conceive of a circumstance where a hypothetical observer is observing conditions in the reality that the observer resides that preclude this observer's existence. For a mortal, physically realizable observer, I cannot see this as a possibility. For a transcendent god-like observer, perhaps. But, I don't think that physics or science deals with transcendent beings, since by definition, their existence is untestable. (E.g. it would be quite remarkable for a scientific observer of the heavens to conclude from these observations that the universe is 104 years old.)
- That's what I mean by "virtually tautological". The Merriam-Webster definition of the WAP: "conditions that are observed in the universe must allow the observer to exist",[1] is, in my opinion, both quite succinct and virtually tautological. Observers must exist to observe (I think that is tautological). In order to exist, observers must exist in a reality with conditions or properties that are consistent with their existence (virtually tautological, but not necessarily so for the supernatural, at least not semantically). 70.109.189.90 (talk) 17:18, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
- Well, for me there is a need to say "The WAP is virtually a tautology" instead of "The WAP is a tautology" because not everyone's definition of a WAP will match all definitions of an observer, in fact we don't even have a definition of what an "observer" is, because we all think we know what an observer is.
- To be a tautology, in practice the predicate of the statement needs to follow from the premise of the statement.
- To confer a proof from person A to person B that a statement is a tautology, axioms, facts and interpretations may be applied that person B believes in.
- For example, "Dead birds are not living" is a tautology because we both know the fact that the word "dead" means "not living".
- Wikipedia is frequented by very different people, and so just saying that "The WAP is a tautology" would incorrectly assume that we all share the same set of facts.
- Now I find it interesting to discuss several definitions of an observer.
- For example, one relatively "short-lived" definition of an observer would be: "The observer o was changed by an event e (to the state o')".
- In the middle of the spectrum of observer definitions, other observers would exist for longer times and observe chains of events long enough to derive pyhsical laws, and to understand their own existence.
- And on the other end of the spectrum of observers, I could define an observer as a sapient, carbon-based liveform, because that is what all readers of the Wikipedia I know are.
- The latter is often termed as "carbon chauvinism", although it is just a different definition of an observer.
- For the Merriam-Webster definition of the WAP: "conditions that are observed in the universe must allow the observer to exist", to follow,
- I must also have the axiom or shared fact that "an observer exists in a universe if it is affected by events in the universe".
- Although I would consider this to be obvious, some people would point to computer games being played, and say "I can observe that, but I'm not part of it.".
- So (I think) I also need the shared fact that "if an observer exists in our universe, then it will affect the universe sooner or later."
- I personally believe that the latter fact is true in our universe because "actio=reactio" or because some laws of the universe which we discovered suggest that it is a zero sum system in some ways.
- There are several kinds of tautologies for example "White horses are white", "White horses are horses", and "White horses are horses that are white".
- Especially the last sentence is often called an "empty" tautology, because there isn't a lot of new stuff to learn about white horses.
- When the WAP is called an "empty" tautology, it is best to remind the one who calls it that, that in logic, a statement that is a tautology has first to be true to be called that.
- I'd call such tautologies "complete tautologies".
- I believe "virtually" complete tautologies such as the WAP are a very difficult base for further reasoning, and am somewhat sceptical when the claim is made that, for example, the discovery of the nucleosynthesis of carbon-12 is an example of an application of the WAP. It is, however, an example of reasoning similar to the reasoning behind the WAP.
- I find the WAP still interesting to be studied as long as it isn't fully understood by everyone.Highlander (talk) 19:59, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
An article which really needs work. No sources whatsoever. It has a section on the anthropic principle but doesn't refer to this as the main article, just in 'see also'. Dougweller (talk) 18:02, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
- I've removed that unreferenced essay on the anthropic principle from that article, given that this article exists and is presumably the right place for it. I'm pasting it here in case there's anything in it that might be useful to this one:
The term “universal physical constants” is used in the scientific community to designate those constants of nature which represent the least amount of anthropic bias. To understand the meaning of this term, it is helpful to imagine highly intelligent non-human beings existing in some remote part of the universe. With such beings in mind, one can classify various natural constants in terms of the relative importance that these imaginary beings might place on them.
For example, human astronomers often use the “astronomical unit” (AU) as a reference for measuring distances in the solar system. The astronomical unit is defined as the mean distance of the earth’s orbit from the sun. This distance is an important reference for humans because it represents the orbit of our planet. But this distance probably wouldn’t be important to intelligent beings in some remote part of the universe. So the astronomical unit is not a “universal” constant of nature.
As a less obvious example, humans use properties of both water and the element carbon to derive measurement units. Water and carbon are both universal substances (believed to exist everywhere in the universe), so intelligent beings in some remote part of the universe might have access to these substances. However, they might not place the same importance on these substances. To understand this, consider that computers display some of the attributes of human intelligence. But unlike humans, computer chips are primarily composed of silicon. So if intelligent beings elsewhere were composed of silicon then they might not value carbon as an important element.
Although still a topic of debate, Scientists have achieved a level of consensus with respect to the universal status of certain physical constants. The constants which appear most likely to be universal are the following:
* The Universal Speed of Light in Vacuum
* The Universal Gravitational Constant
* The Universal Quantization of Action (Known as Planck’s Constant)
* The Universal Quantization of Charge (Known as the Elementary Charge)
The masses and various other properties of elementary particles and the coupling values associated with the strong, weak, and electromagnetic interactions are also considered to be universal.
As a final twist, some scientists now believe in the existence of other universes. The exact nature of these other universes and their topological connection to our universe is a topic of speculation and debate. But if they do exist, then some scientists further speculate that the values of universal constants may not be the same in each of the universes as in the others. For example, the speed of light might be faster or slower in one universe than it is in another. Scientists further speculate that if the universal constants are different in differing universes, then some universes may have values which support the evolution of intelligent life and others may have values which repress the evolution of life. Scientists and philosophers further speculate that it may be impossible for a universe which does not support intelligent life to exist, because existence is verified through observation by an intelligent being; therefore, a universe can not exist without an observer.
This belief in many universes, together with the belief that some universes have natural properties which prohibit the evolution and existence of intelligent life, is known as the anthropic principle. If the anthropic principle is correct, then one might rightly conclude that all units of measurement are anthropic units. This conclusion is drawn from the fact that we live in a universe which supports human life; therefore, our universe is an anthropically biased universe. Furthermore, any constants of nature that exist in our universe will be anthropically biased. Hence, our units of measurement will be anthropically biased. - Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 21:37, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- The AP says nothing about whether or not there are other universes. Justletters, you're reading more into it than what it is. The AP is as correct as any other tautology is. 70.109.187.107 (talk) 19:55, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
- Ooops, I now understand that Justletters isn't saying this, but it was the author of the content Justletters pasted in above. Sorry. 70.109.187.107 (talk) 19:57, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
Give simple explanations to strong and weak AP
First, make it clear that the definition of strong and weak AP are unclear even among experts.
Second some tongue-in-cheek definitions would work well, I guess, like: "The universe is at it is, because if it was not, we would not here be have this conversation". I leave it to you to tell me if this is WAP or SAP. And to give an equally tongue-in-cheek definition for the other one.
IMHO.--
David Latapie (✒ | @) — www 00:12, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- There are at least two problems with giving our own tongue-in-cheek definitions of the WAP:
- First, Wikipedia asks contributors to base their work on reliable sources, so we should avoid just to make stuff up.
- And in addition, we would just add to the confusion by adding even more WAPs and SAPs.
- Your wording of the AP could be called a good wording of the WAP. I would try to give you another wording of the WAP if you give me your definition of an observer (See my comment above about observers).
- Highlander (talk) 19:04, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- Well, it doesn't stop me from trying to interpret. For the WAP, I still think that the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary definition is succinct: "conditions that are observed in the universe must allow the observer to exist" and tautological, so it's hard to argue with it. But even if it is apparently obviously true, it doesn't really say much. (But if you're a believer in the multiverse or some many worlds cosmology, then the WAP serves to explain the Dicke coincidences or fine-tuned universe.)
- For the SAP, it's a "stronger" statement in that it says more and makes a claim that is not tautological. It sorta claims that because the observed conditions are how they are (the FTU and the fact that we are here), that the Universe had no choice but to eventually have life, such as ours, emerge. It's like, even though a Royal flush is extremely unlikely, since it is not impossible, eventually if you continue to shuffle the deck and deal out 5 card trials, that eventually a Royal flush must be dealt (and only then will we be around to notice).
- If SETI ever discovers intelligent life outside of our own world and solar system, that would make the SAP more plausible in my opinion. It would change the constituent parameters of the Drake equation from pointing to a result where there is maybe one other, maybe no other world with life out there to pointing to a result where there are probably tens of thousands of other living planets in our galaxy. This is because if SETI hears ET, ET has to be reasonably close (I think less than 50 or 100 lightyears). Even if the reality is that there are thousands of other civilizations out there, with 100 billion stars in the Milky Way, it would still be very unlikely that even one of those civilizations are close enough to us to ever be noticed. But if another civilization happens to turn up in our neighborhood, then it's likely that there are a lot more than thousands of other civilizations, but tens or hundreds of thousands. And if that is the case, then the SAP becomes more plausible (to me) than it is. But if we're alone in the galaxy and perhaps the whole universe, I think that means there is not much support for the SAP (and our living planet is a fluke). 70.109.191.47 (talk) 01:58, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
Back-to-front argument
"In 1961, Robert Dicke noted that the age of the universe, as seen by living observers, cannot be random.[8] Instead, biological factors constrain the universe to be more or less in a "golden age," neither too young nor too old.[9]"
I think I know what is meant here, but the way it is put is nonsensical. 1) The age of something can never be random, its age is simply its age at the time concerned. 2) Biological factors cannot constrain the universe to be anything. It is the other way around. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.11.3.250 (talk) 12:23, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
- That's the whole point of the anthropic principle. Your point 2) is correct; biological factors do not constrain the universe to be anything. But biological factors do constrain whether or not any biological beings will observe the universe to be anything. Before getting to the fundamental constants, consider the age of the universe. The universe gets to experiment at being any age. Once it was less than a million years old. It was also a billion years old, once. Someday it will be a trillion years old. Now consider your (correct) observation that "It is the other way around." At what age(s) of the universe would you expect to see life emerging? Then when would you expect to see life that has evolved to sufficient sophistication to ask the question "how old is the universe?" Would it be surprising if the answer was "about as old as necessary for you to be there to ask the question."? 70.109.187.107 (talk) 19:39, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
Clarifying the meaning of "tautology"
In the section "Critcism", the word "tautology" meant different things, either good or bad, to different people. After considering the terms: "vapid tautology", "boring tautology" and "empty tautology", and reading the wikipedia section on tautology, I believe the most appropriate and understandable term is "boring tautology". I know this sounds a bit too simple for an article that is seeded with difficult terms, but think about it.
As the job of wikipedia contributors is to find knowledge in sources, and then to evocate it back in better words, I am removing the citation needed tag, since I believe in this case it really was a "I didn't know about the other meaning of 'tautology'."-tag. Highlander (talk) 19:57, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
- You are correct to flag this up as a weakness in the article - the fact that the terms truism and tautology are mentioned together perpetuates a widespread miconception that tautologies are necessarily devoid of meaning. In fact every theorem of propositional calculus is a tautology, as are many mathematical theorems, but that doesn't mean they are unsurprising or devoid of interest. I will think about some changes to clarify this in the article. DaveApter (talk) 10:55, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
- It is true that every proven theorem amounts to a tautology. Personally, I am not well pleased with either articles on tautology here. I believe that the pertinent (to this article) meaning is A tautology is a logical statement in which the conclusion is equivalent to the premise. I think this emphasizes the meaning of a statement where the conclusion is transparently equivalent to the premise. There is nothing wrong with a tautology if it helps one focus on simple truths that (nearly) no one can argue with. I don't know if "boring tautology" is the right word here. I think that, perhaps, the criticism of the AP as a tautology is that it (to the critic) is considered a "meaningless tautology". To that critic, the AP doesn't really say anything or is inconsequential. I think we need a better adjective than "boring". People and books and stories are boring. The AP is not boring, but if I were that critic of the AP, I might say it is meaningless. I personally do not think the WAP is meaningless, because if we made the observation that the Universe is 10 million years old, we would have trouble explaining it. Also, the SAP is hardly tautological; it says something that could be controversial and controversial statements are decidedly not tautological. 70.109.187.107 (talk) 17:32, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
- Well, thanks for your input. I kind of liked "boring" because it emphasizes the subjective nature of it. Highlander (talk) 22:34, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
Natural complement of the PAP
Here are two reliable sources: In 2005 the PAP receives its natural extension: "The mission of the senders consists in delivery of consciousness into the Universe". In other words, intelligence in a position to decide whether to fill the Universe with reasonable low-entropy signals. Here are TWO reliable sources:
1) May 2005 The Drake Equation: Adding a METI Factor and
2) (in Russian): Уравнение Дрейка с METI-коэффициентом in Vestn. SETI, No 9/26, 2005, ISSN 1994-3016. METIfan (talk) 01:08, 8 January 2012 (UTC)METIfan (talk) 01:17, 8 January 2012 (UTC)METIfan (talk) 01:18, 8 January 2012 (UTC) METIfan (talk) 07:00, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
- 1) is not an WP:RS and both apparently fail WP:V although, frankly, I'm not really sure what you're even trying to say.—Machine Elf 1735 20:46, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Here is what I, Highlander, think about the topic:
- I find that even the term participatory universe and as such a participatory anthropic principle are not well documented, and surely not here on Wikipedia. The link in this article for participatory universe goes to Digital_physics, where only the sentence "all things physical are information-theoretic in origin" gives an explanation, which is then followed by a link to this article. That is very odd.
- I would suggest that before you add information related to a participatory anthropic principle, you first make sure that the concept of a PAP is defined clearly on Wikipedia. Also, explain how METI is complementary to the PAP. Or is it an addendum, not a complement?
- The SETI effort is relevant to the Anthropic principle insofar that if we make contact with an alien species remote from Earth, some sentences will have to be rewritten to consider that both our and the aliens position in the Universe are privileged enough to allow life and even sentient life. A METI effort in this respect is only relevant when the recipient chooses to reply to our messages in some way.
- Regarding a participatory principle (based on information/observers) embodied in the Universe, I can offer some original thoughts on how I see that, if you want, as a short but necessarily incomplete essay on the matter. Just say so. I think a Wikipedia talk page is not the place for it.
- Highlander (talk) 22:42, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
- To clarify, METIfan has attempted to add this (the non-bold text) to the article four times. METI is certainly not an addendum to PAP. Contrary to what METIfan is attempting to add, it's not a “natural extension”, (nor is this claim found on either web page). Of course, whether or not METI might be somehow “complementary” to PAP in someone's opinion, isn't relevant unless a better source actually addresses that more specifically.
- Please feel free to start a separate PAP discussion so that the topic won't be confused with this particular issue. Thanks.—Machine Elf 1735 02:02, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
- @Highlander. Yes, followed the links you pointed out above which are circular. Changes made to attempt to break out from the circularity. Aarghdvaark (talk) 04:33, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
Biocentric universe
There's an issue about whether Robert Lanza's concept of Biocentrism is related to some of the ideas of the Anthropic principle. User 70.109.185.57 (BTW thanks for the self revert) said this needs to be discussed on the talk page, so here goes:
- I think it is related, see for example this Talk:Biocentric_universe#Wheeler.27s_Participatory_Anthropic_Principle Aarghdvaark (talk) 04:08, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
{{Anthropic Bias}}
Template:Anthropic Bias (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has been nominated for deletion -- 76.65.128.112 (talk) 05:52, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
Discussion of capitalization of universe
There is request for comment about capitalization of the word universe at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters#Capitalization of universe - request for comment. Please participate. SchreiberBike talk 00:29, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
Notification of request for comment
An RfC has been commenced at MOSCAPS Request for comment - Capitalise universe.
Cinderella157 (talk) 03:23, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
Life can evolve in many Universes
The Anthropic Principle may be a fallacious concept, since "evolutionary life" can evolve in many environments with sufficient complexity to allow (a) formation (b) imperfect time-wise reproduction (c) limits on smoothly time-wise declining resources required for such reproduction (evolution cannot take place if the pace of change is past the "organism"'s limits). In other words, there can be many forms of life that could evolve in many different universes with different physical laws. So long as those universes provide a base for any feasible form of life. For example we can replay the evolution of various conceptual forms of life inside computer systems, using multiple varying environments. Of course, for all that above, we depend an agreed concept to fit the word "life". So any partitioning of physics predicated on the Anthropic Principle and an ill-agreed definition of the concept of life might appear to be weakly based? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jjalexand (talk • contribs) 14:06, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
- Unfortunately there isn't "THE anthropic principle". There are a small number of weak forms of it, and a lot of stronger i.e. more disputable variants. Any discussion of anthropic principles is not fruitful unless it is clear to all parties which principle is being discussed. It is also helpful if the person disputing "the" anthropic principle is not making up their own version. Highlander (talk) 10:10, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
On the multiverse; can there be any other versions of space-time which do not comply with the rules as we know them? How would they manifest themselves; if, for instance, energy had a different formulation, could matter come into being? Is matter a prerequisite for life? Storris (talk) 15:36, 04 May 2015 (UTC)