Talk:St. James Infirmary Blues

Untitled

All the info below and more at this link: http://robwalker.net/html_docs/letterthirteen.html . Sorry I'm not fixing this up. --70.144.38.110 30 June 2005 00:08 (UTC)

Probably based on 18th century English ballad "The Unfortunate Rake". About a person dying of syphilis on the stairs of St. James Hospital ("As I lay dying on the stairs of St. James Hospital"). The melody of "Streets of Laredo" comes from the same song. In the USA the song transformed into "The Dying Cowboy", which was transformed into "The Dying Gambler", "Gambler's Blues" and/or "St. James Infirmary" by the blacks working the plantations. Bob Dylan used the melody for "Blind Willie McTell". The lyrics of the latter were "written" by Irving Mills under the pseudonym of Joe Primrose. First recorded by Louis Armstrong & His Savoy Ballroom Five in 1928/29 for the Okeh-label.

Other notable singers?

Is it worth mentioning other notable singers who've performed the song? There are a number written into the article already, but I was curious if I should include Josh White.

Someone should. If not you or I, who? JimCubb 22:43, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't really know how to edit on Wikipedia, but I wanted to mention that Danny Barker also did a recording of St. James Infirmary Blues. Could he be added to the list? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.192.126.24 (talk) 14:31, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

I think any singer who has his/her own wikipedia article and who recorded St. James Informary Blues, should be referenced in the article. So somebody should add Cisco Houston and Arlo Guthrie. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.86.116.180 (talk) 20:36, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Location of Infirmary

Does anyone know if the historic location that this song's title is based on isn't the Saint James Infirmary in Milwaukee, Wisconsin? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jimmithy (talk • contribs) 06:40, 5 March 2007 (UTC).

It more likely is referring to St James Hospital in Liverpool (England) --David Broadfoot 02:13, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I always assumed it was in New Orleans, so associated with drinking, gambling, prostitution, and of course, early jazz. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.189.173.205 (talk) 01:56, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I've provided the necessary reference tracing the Infirmary to London (outis9). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Outis9 (talk • contribs) 22:21, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

In a 1970's BBC interview B.B. King stated that the song had originated in Liverpool and taken to the southern states, where it changed from a maudlin Victorian ballad to a blues. He claimed it is the oldest blues song. St. James Hospital was a very old hospital on Tollemache Road in Birkenhead (across the river from Liverpool)in the 1970's when I was there, and it doesn't seem to exist any more. It used to be known as the "Fever Hospital" located next to the main cemetery. It had moved up the hill from Livingstone Street at some point in the 19th C. The St. James link comes from the 11thC Benedictine Priory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.74.11.214 (talk) 22:42, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Isn't the song more likely referring to the Civil War hospital in New Orleans, at the St. James Hotel? [1][2] Mathew5000 (talk) 01:10, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Structural Comments

This song has a long and relatively well documented history going back to the 18th century, and this is not thoroughly documented at the moment in Wikipedia. Since in my opinion, this history is what makes this collection of songs so interesting, I think it is worthy of inclusion here. I expanded a little bit on this history in my update, and provided a starting reference. (outis9)

I would much prefer that the main article for this collection of songs be The_Unfortunate_Rake, rather than the this current article St_James_Infirmary_Blues, even though St_James_Infirmary_Blues is perhaps the most famous version. Folding the background and history into The_Unfortunate_Rake makes it easier to introduce all the variations which spring from The_Unfortunate_Rake in a cleaner way. However this is a significant change, so I simply added the history to St_James_Infirmary_Blues. (outis9)

Notability

Lots of people have recorded and/or performed this song. Therefore, we need some standard of notability to decide who should be mentioned in the article and who should not. If we list every performer, the article would become unwieldy. In the best scenario, rather than just a litany of names, we would have some detail as to when the recording was made, what album it appeared on, whether it was recorded more than once, if the particular performer put their own individual "stamp" on it (as is the case, for example, with The Animals recording of "House of the Rising Sun"), etc. We also need sources for any and all of this. What we do not need are more names added to the "performers" section, certainly not without sources. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 23:02, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Relation to "The Unfortunate Rake"

I discovered a source that connects "St. James Infirmary" to the English ballad "The Unfortunate Rake," added the link and removed the "citation needed" tag. However, it is a tenous connection indeed; they are cross-referenced together in an entry on a third party ballad, and on the main ballad index page for "The Unfortunate Rake" there is no link to "St. James Infimary." It appears that the only connection is the mention of St. James Infirmary itself; the rest of the ballad is unique in every other way. The fact that we cannot trace it to before 1925 should be regarded as significant.Pinikadia 14:52, 2 March 2011 (UTC)Pinikadia — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pinikadia (talk • contribs)

I tend to agree. "Infirmary" clearly has elements that derive from songs of "The Unfortunate Rake" lineage (or from a common ancestor), but consider the first sentence here under "Authorship & History," that "Rake" is "about a soldier who uses his money on prostitutes, and then dies of a venereal disease." "St. James Infirmary" as we have it has nothing obvious to do with soldiers or venereal disease, nor does it necessarily have anything to do with prostitutes. The only things the two songs really have in common, other than the name "St. James Infirmary," is the expression of dying wishes, which in "Infirmary" are apparently an afterthought with no connection to the opening verses. Borrowing a few lines from a traditional song, which is a very common practice in folk music, doesn't mean that the new song is "based on" the other song. So the Rake / Infirmary connection is interesting, but it's really only part of the explanation for the song's origin. 850 C (talk) 17:24, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

I posted this on an "Edit warring" board

Here is my post and a reply.

A happening at St. James Infirmary Blues‎

I am very close to being in a edit war with User: TheOldJacobite concerning the St. James Infirmary Blues‎ article. I posted that the song was used in a certain movie, s/he removed it as being not notable. I disagreed and would have discussed it with him (seems more like a guy than not) on his talk page, but seemed to be blocked from doing so. I reposted the section, adding a reference from IMDB that had the song in the movie. He undid that. It seems to me that being on a movie soundtrack is notable enough to be listed in the “also ran” section of the article, but me posting again and he removing again gets us to three reverts and who wants that? So here I am, what happens next? Is this the right page to post this? Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 22:10, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

l'd open a discussion on the talk page of the article. User:amaliel (talk) 23:32, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Consider it done. Carptrash (talk) 23:38, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

So there you have it. It would be great if we could get a 2nd, 3rd 4th etc. opinion here & save both the Old Jacobite and me a lot of trouble. Carptrash (talk) 23:48, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

• You should note that IMDB is not a reliable source, you should try to find a better source that details the use of the song in the film. I searched Google News archive and Google Books and found nothing, but did not perform an exhaustive search. Good luck. J04n(talk page) 16:44, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

  Okay, Here [[3]] is another source. This is what you asked for, now what is your opinion about keeping it? Carptrash (talk) 17:24, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

• I am not convinced the appearance of a song in a film is generally notable. There are exceptions, Moon River in Breakfast at Tiffany's is an obvious example when the film should be noted in the song article. One song of 20 in a film can hardly be considered notable. I'd leave the film out. --Richhoncho (talk) 17:29, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

  So would suggest that this section be removed too?
  

  "Cab Calloway can be seen singing it and dancing a slide dance in the Betty Boop cartoon Snow White. His performance was filmed, then transferred using rotoscoping. The Bing Crosby musical Birth of the Blues featured the song in 1941."
  

  PS in the movie Double Jeopardy the band is actually seen playing the song, it is not just background music. Carptrash (talk) 17:59, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

No, because those films, those performances, and those performers all are notable. In the case of the example you have added, none of this is true. The mere fact that the film takes place in New Orleans indicates that music is going to be heard and musicians seen, but that does not convey automatic significance. ---The Old Jacobite_{The '45} 19:02, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Carptrash, I see that, despite the comments above, you reinserted this information, but still have not provided a source that proves notability. Despite Gamaliel's lame comment below, you actually do have to prove notability. It is not enough to prove that the song was used in that movie, as Richhoncho said above, you have to show that this use was notable. You have not done so. ---The Old Jacobite_{The '45} 03:58, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

There's a large paragraph featuring covers with about 39 musicians listed, with no sources offered to demonstrate notability. If anything, there's now more demonstrated notability about this particular use of the song then most of the material in that section. Gamaliel (talk) 05:03, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

That argument proves nothing. That other content in that section needs to be sourced is a problem we should address. But, that says nothing about this particular example, which is not notable. All those sources prove is that the song was used in the movie. So what? Lots of songs are used in lots of movies, and that does not make any of them notable. ---The Old Jacobite_{The '45} 14:42, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

So you'll edit war to remove this sourced content and ignore the unsourced content? That makes sense. Gamaliel (talk) 17:22, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

You are the one who is edit-warring. The consensus above was that it should be excluded, then you came along. The argument "other shit exists" proves nothing. The references given for that particular example of the song do not prove notability, which is a policy on WP. ---The Old Jacobite_{The '45} 17:45, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

It takes two to edit war. Gamaliel (talk) 17:58, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

There was no edit war 'til you came along. I have repeatedly stated my reasons for deletion with policy, you have not. ---The Old Jacobite_{The '45} 04:34, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

And I just forced you to revert me, with you kicking and screaming all the way. How dastardly of me. Gamaliel (talk) 05:12, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

That is to say, I have not proved notability to your satisfaction. Since it seems that wikipedia is created in your likeness, that is, I guess, all that matters. I'll remove this page from my watchlist. Enjoy. Carptrash (talk) 15:08, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

I don't see the harm of including it since the page makes space to include dozens of covers. Certainly not a paragraph for it, but perhaps in that long list of artists. Gamaliel (talk) 18:57, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Jimmie Rodgers, Dave Van Ronk, Lily Tomlin/SNL

Given some of the contentious history behind this entry, I would like to run this by anyone who may be paying attention before attempting to edit the page itself.

1. Dave Van Ronk -- given that a redirection to the Van Ronk album St. James Infirmary appears at the top of this entry, would it not be worth mentioning his version of the song as well as his performance of it at a 1997 concert at Wolf Trap honoring Harry Smith's Anthology of Folk Music? If no one objects, I'd like to add these notable versions.

2. Lily Tomlin with Howard Shore's All Nurse SNL Band -- surely a notable performance of the song in the very first season of Saturday Night Live (this was the first time I ever heard the song and loved it ever since).

3. Jimmie Rodgers -- In the current article, there is a reference to Jorma Kaukonen doing a version of the song but mistakenly crediting it to Jimmie Rodgers. In fact, Jorma's version is based on the Jimmie Rodgers version, which is not otherwise mentioned in the article. Rodgers recorded a version of the song in 1930 and took credit for it as arranger, which was later erroneously changed by his publishing company to composer. The "arranger" was in response to litigation from Irving Mills, but Mills as copyright holder never noticed or at least never objected to the later switch to Rodgers as composer. All of this appears in Appendix C of the Robert W. Harwood book cited in a number of other places in this article. I believe the Jorma Kaukonen cover should be corrected and the Jimmie Rodgers version added.

BJ9RW (talk) 05:02, 11 June 2016 (UTC) BJ9RW