Talk:Jewish anarchism

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Many of these people are not anarchists, let alone Jewish, including Malcolm McLaren, Ayn Rand, and Sid Vicious. I'm deleting them.

Do you really think Ayn Rand (Alisa Rosenbaum, daughter of Zinovy Rosenbaum), Malcolm McLaren (whose mother Emily Isaacs was Jewish) or Sid Vicious (whose mother was Jewish) are not Jews?--ZZZZ 13:13, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

-Sid Vicious may have been Jewish in some aspect, I'm not sure because I thought I knew a lot about the Sex Pistols but I've never heard this one. Amongst the names people claim are his real names the most popular has been Simon Ritchie so I'm not sure if he's Jewish. Regardless, Ayn Rand is definitely not an Anarchist, especially because she's not even a Libertarian (US sort). She shouldn't be listed.

Albert Parsons

Was he Jewish?

Jesus

Was Jesus a Jewish anarchist? His ideas were certainly unpopular with the Jewish hierarchy and the Sanhedrin, as they posed a threat to the status quo. nirvana2013 17:22, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Please romve Mykel Board, who is a liberal, not an anacrhist-see his writings, for example his column in MRR. Please remove Ayn Rand, who was Jewish, but not an anarchist. She could possibly be described as an American Libertarian, but not a Libertarian in the international sense of the word. If we want to stick to the record, we should call her an Objectivist. -Aj

Norman Cohn removed

His son Nik told me h was a Menshevik!Harrypotter 17:43, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

What is a Jewish anarchist?

This page needs so much work, which I'd love to do but don't have time. In the meantime, I'm wondering how useful the Jewish anarchists list is. Some of these people are Jewish by origin, but with Jewishness playing no part in their anarchism, while others were much more fundamentally shaped by Yiddish popular culture or by Jewish religious traditions. BobFromBrockley 11:26, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

There is a category Jewish anarchists. Wouldn't it be better to use that? BobFromBrockley 17:25, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Links to blogs

It is against wikipedia policy to link to blogs. See WP:EL "Links normally to be avoided: Except for a link to a page that is the subject of the article or an official page of the article subject—and not prohibited by restrictions on linking—one should avoid:[...] 11. Links to blogs and personal webpages, except those written by a recognized authority." I therefore urge the removing of the link to . See also laplandia's proposal to this effect at Anarchism and Orthodox Judaism page. I think there is a strong case for the inclusion of link to [Orthodox Anarchist] as Daniel Sieradski is a recognized authority.BobFromBrockley 17:19, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

According to the policy that you quote, my blog should be removed, as should Sieradski's; the Bizayon and Orthodox Anarchist are both personal blogs. What little there is to be found in the general realm of "anarchist Torah" on either site, is probably not sufficient for a link to be included. On the other hand, Dan's "Jew-it-yourself" project (whenever it nears completion) is far more suitable for inclusion.

By "recognized authority", I assume that you're referring to Bakunin's other definition of authority; i.e. in the manner that a shoemaker is an "authority" on boots. In that case, what makes one a recognized authority on Jewish anarchism?DayKart 02:51, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

By "recognized authority", I take wikipedia to mean something along the lines of taken seriously by substantial numbers of people. BobFromBrockley 13:02, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

And how many is a "substantial number"? As Dan has mentioned elsewhere, I'm known only a handful of those in the blogging community; and to my friends, who number far more than a handful. My friends take me seriously when I expound on the topic of "Jewish anarchism", and would probably consider me to be a "recognized authority" on the topic; whereas most of the people who have only read my blog but have not met me in person, probably do not take me seriously. As I've mentioned elsewhere, I did not insert the link to the blog and will therefore not remove it myself; you're free to do whatever you feel is in the best interests of this article in particular and the encyclopedia in general. DayKart 10:21, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Point of article?

I don't quite get the point of the article. Some Jews have embraced anarchist ideas, true enough. But does this make their anarchism "Jewish anarchism"? I find it hard to imagine a person following the Jewish religion with its strict laws and being an anarchist in the political sphere. If a person left the religion and then became an anarchist that sounds more like normal human behavior. But how does that make his or her anarchism Jewish? Thanks. Steve Dufour 05:54, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with this, although I think some of the above logic rests on how you define Judaism. In my understanding, many people define Judaism also as a cultural phenomenon, where one might stop practicing the religion but remains part of the culture -- hence, still a Jew. I don't necessarily support that argument personally, but it exists. Also, not all types of Judaism have "strict laws" -- particularly Reform Judaism can be very lax, but still considered Jewish. There's also a genetic argument that (particularly Ashkenazi) Jews are a "race", not only a religion, since they stem from a very small gene pool in the not-too-distant past. So that might make this article akin to, say, "South Asian anarchism" or "Eskimo anarchism". Not that I necessarily think those articles should exist either.... Finally, I think "Jewish anarchism" in this case means "Jewish involvement with anarchism", not some particular flavor of anarchism that only Jews have. So maybe the title should be changed, at the least. Organ123 16:40, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

It might be better to call it: "People who are both Jews and anarchists: their ideas and their activities"  :-) Steve Dufour 19:18, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I think the article needs a lot of work, particularly in the "secular Jewish anarchism" section (which, if it were done, would answer your criticisms). Historically, there have been mass Jewish secular anarchist movements - in Britain, France, the US, Argentina and elsewhere. The content of this movement's ideology had little or nothing to do with Judaism as a religion. But the movement was fairly homogeneously Jewish by ethnicity, and articulated itself in a Jewish language (Yiddish), and often specifically in terms of Ashknenazi Jewish working class cultural traditions. In its early period, the movement was aggressively secular (although less so than the equivalent Yiddish-language Social Democratic movement), but closely connected to the growing Yiddish modernist culture and literature (e.g. the sweatshop poets). In its later period, it was more folkist in orientation, and sometimes came close to supporting Zionism. As a final point, as the article (and the article Anarchism and Orthodox Judaism) make clear, there have been religious Jewish anarchists too, whose anarchism included elements of Judaism. BobFromBrockley 20:40, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Do anarchists refrain from eating rotten meat or getting hooked on heroin? If one believes that something is a dangerous practice, either for physical or mystical reasons, she may avoid it and encourage the others not to do it. From Hasidic and Kabbalistic panentheist/non-exactly-theist theory, the laws of Judaism are just as natural as the laws of physical nature. Some very Orthodox Hasidic authors declare that the word "Mitzva" means an "connection channel" or is itself a Divine name, rather than a "commandment". IMHO, channeling spiritual energy through a strict system of mystical rules has little to do with the rejection of the State, class struggle and other anarchist principles. Most contemporary Hasidim are very statist and authoritarian, not familiar at all with the underlying theory of their own movement and might even ban it as "heretical", but that's another very unfortunate story... Laplandian 20:38, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

If this article is going to have a point it should be on Jewish anarchist movements like Yiddishist anarchist groups, rather than individual Jewish anarchists like Chomsky, who at best deserve ancillary notice in an article like this.--Pharos 04:57, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Agree. Have slightly changed second section to reflect this. BobFromBrockley 08:52, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Merge

Unnecessary list List of Jewish anarchists is mostly redlinks anyway, and should be incorporated into this. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 04:34, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it's a good idea. There are ~80 names on that list, and ~20 red links among them. First, one-fourth is hardly "mostly redlinks". Second, 80 names (or even 60) are an awful lot to include under Jewish anarchism#Jewish anarchists. To get a sense of what that section might look like if the two articles were merged, see Multiracial#See also. — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 05:14, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Strongly agree with Malik Shabazz. In fact, I'd suggest list here be removed and the list stuff all go in the list article.

Previous unsigned comment was by me on June 28.BobFromBrockley 10:11, 29 August 2007 (UTC) No-one has supported the merge, and someone has moved the list here to there, so I will remove the tag. BobFromBrockley 10:24, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Anarchism and Orthodox Judaism: it has been proposed that this page and that page merge. I oppose this merge, as the two articles cover rather different things. BobFromBrockley 10:24, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I think one article covering the relationship between anarchism and Jews is sufficient and that having two confuses matters. Anarchism and Orthodox Judaism largely discusses Judaism of an anarchistic fashion while this article consists predominantly of a Jewish flavours of anarchism. Support. Skomorokh ^incite 17:28, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Strongly oppose. At the risk of being offensive, the two articles should have nothing to do with one another. The fact that the "Orthodox" article is three or four times longer than this one is shameful.

Most Jewish anarchists have been secularists, atheists, and antitheists. In early 20th century New York, they used to throw a festive ball on Kol Nidre, the evening that begins the solemn fast of Yom Kippur. Most Jewish anarchists will tell you that "Orthodox Judaism and anarchism" are like oil and vinegar. What's next? "Sharia and anarchism"?

Anarchism and Orthodox Judaism is an example of Synthesis, in which editors have combined unrelated but factual statements to create a catalog of "anarchistic ideas" that are "common" (untrue, but so the article claims) in aspects of Orthodox Judaism or Jewish history. By the "logic" used in that article to tie Orthodox Judaism to anarchism, one could argue that the absence of a "head of the table" in Camelot indicates that King Arthur was an anarchist.

There is much that can and should be added to this article about Jewish anarchists, but merging it with a sub-par article on an unrelated topic is inappropriate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Malik Shabazz (talk • contribs) 19:02, August 29, 2007 (UTC)

Well... I am the author of most of Anarchism and Orthodox Judaism and more than a half of Jewish Anarchism, and I also oppose the suggested merge, because this two articles indeed cover rather different things. However, I would like to correct some of Malik Shabazz's statements. First, while most Jewish anarchists were/are indeed secularist, a few Orthodox Jews were very actively involved in mainstream anarchist movements, e.g. Rabbi Zalkind, Nachman Steinberg and Rabbi Y.L. Ashlag. On the other hand, quite a few secular Jewish libertarian thinkers often refer to the Bible, Kabbalah and Hasidic tradition, especially Martin Buber and Erich Fromm. Most secular and even anti-religious anarchist Yiddish pamphlets admire some of the Talmudic and Hasidic stories and traditions.

Regarding "Sharia and anarchism" - read the articles on Anarchism and Islam and Anarchism and religion. It appears that some Islamic anarcho-communists manage to synthesize libertarian socialist thought with some sort of voluntary version of Sharia law. There also exist anarchist trends in all Christian denominations, including Catholics, Protestants and Russian Orthodox (Nikolay Berdyaev and some Moscow "mystical anarchists"). I am well aware that many anarchists disregard any kind of anarchism, based on traditional religion (perhaps, except for Taoism). Nevertheless, most voluntary communitarian movements in human history were in fact religious, some even extremely ascetic. Anarchism is a very diverse phenomenon and cannot be reduced to secularism. Some Jewish anarchists used to throw a festive ball on Kol Nidrey, while some others (Rabbi Zalkind) were establishing kosher public kitchens for the Jewish poor and sitting in jail for opposing the British imperialism...

I agree that the article about secular Jewish anarchism should be much longer, but I personally don't have time and patience to continue working on it, because it's not enough refreshing. :-) I prefer writing about bizzare things, such as ancient Soviet mainframe computers, Mayan crystall sculls, UFOs and Jewish Orthodox anarchism. "Sharia and anarchism" is a good thought. :-))

Laplandian 18:32, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

"Yiddish-speaking Jews participated to the International Anarchist Congress of Amsterdam in 1907."

The stuff from which comedy is made.