Talk:Wahhabi sack of Karbala

Why?

This article appears to have never been sourced, and it was created by a sockpuppet account which was banned four years ago. Is there any reason for this article to exist? MezzoMezzo (talk) 13:24, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

While the article is non-existant, it should cover a significant military attack and mass murder incident committed by the First Saudi State. It is important as well, as this incident could be considered a prequel to 9/11. I would say the incident is very well attested. --Lionheart Omega (talk) 22:17, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

This prove the intent of Saudi state and Wahhabi / Salafi beliefs to terrorize anyone else, level any tomb to the ground (as what happened to Jannat_al-Baqi' Cemetery and Jannat_al-Mu'alla cemeteries), and kill the shia muslims who are considered heretics in their eyes. Icewizard (talk) 09:38, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Copyediting

I'm copy editing, just so you guys know. TerribleTy27 (talk) 17:45, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

Ibn Bishr used the world 'Muslim' as the Wahhabis referred to themselves, not feeling the need to distinguish themselves from other Muslims, since they did not believe them to be Muslims.

Ahem, is it word or world? TerribleTy27 (talk) 18:18, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

I found another confusing paragraph.

The report is accepted by Ibn Sanad and Raymond written soon after the attack

The entire Date of Attack section is kinda, seriously messed up. I suggest you improve that while I'm away.. TerribleTy27 (talk) 18:18, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

Thank you TerribleTy27 for carrying the burden of copy editing the article. I think its 'word' not 'world'. I try to take care if the 'Date' section. --Mhhossein (talk) 04:02, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

Muslims as general

Hey @Tiptoethrutheminefield: I reverted two of your edits as I though they were WP:OR. However, if you can explain how it was not violating the guidelines please discuss it here before doing further edits. --Mhhossein ^talk 16:57, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

I did not add that content, nor did I alter its meaning. I merely reworded it to make its meaning clearer. If you think it needs sources, you should have tagged it. The version of the content you reverted to is also unsourced, which makes your OR reasoning rather contradictory (indeed doubly contradictory, since both versions say essentially the same thing). I think it is crucially important content if accurate because it reflects on WHY the attack took place - so I am going to restore my edit (the version you have reverted to simply badly written) but I will tag it for a source. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 19:22, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

I have checked the source - Sayed Khatab, "Understanding Islamic Fundamentalism: The Theological and Ideological Basis of Al-Qa'ida's Political Tactics" - and my edit (in particular the content indicating that the Wahhabis did not consider the Shia inhabitants of Karbala to be Muslims) does accurately reflect the content on page 74 and 75 of that source (the source's explanation of Ibn Bishr's emphasis on calling the Wahhabi attackers of Karbala "Muslims" being that "the Wahhabis call themselves Muslim to the exclusion of others" and that this usage indicates the attack was part of the "pattern of what they called jihad"), so I am removing the citation required tag. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 19:46, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Tiptoethrutheminefield: First of all, I asked you not to alter the stable version without discussing it on the talk page (refer to Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle please). Secondly, please note that your version is original research because no part of the article says that "because they did not consider the Shia inhabitants of Karbala to be Muslims," rather the source says that "Wahhabis call themselves Muslims to the exclusion of others," i.e. they believed that only Wahhabis are muslims and others, whether Shi'a or Sunni, were not Muslims to their eyes. Furthermore, two of your edits ([1] & [2]) show that you had not checked the sources carefully before editing this paragraph. However, I suggest to have "The Wahhabis referred to themselves as 'Muslims', as Ibn Bishr did, since they did not consider others to be Muslims." This version has the benefit of being strongly in accordance with the source. --Mhhossein ^talk 06:38, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

You seem to be being weasily deceitful, probably for personal pov reasons. The Wahhabis did not simply "refer to themselves" as Muslims. The source, in the context of explaining the use of the term "Muslims" in the contemporary Wahhabi chronicler's account of the Wahhabi attack on Karbala, quite explicitly explains that Wahhabis considered only themselves to be actual Muslims, and that the attack on Karbala was done in the context of a jihad against those they considered to be non-Muslims. Thus, it is entirely in accordance with the content of the source to say that the Wahhabi attackers did not consider the town's inhabitants to be Muslims (this also of course allowed them to neatly avoid the convention that Muslims should not wage war on other Muslims) Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 13:20, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Tiptoethrutheminefield: I warn you against making further personal attacks. You should know the outcome of commenting on editors instead of commenting on the content. Did you even read my comment? The source never says that "they did not consider the Shia inhabitants of Karbala to be Muslims." You are misinterpreting the content of the book. The source, as you already verified, says that " Wahhabis considered only themselves to be actual Muslims." The source never restricts Wahhabi dismissal belief to Karbala inhabitants or Shia Muslims. Pay attention to the exact sentence from the book which says:"because Wahhabis call themselves Muslims to the exclusion of others." Moreover, I refer you to this source where it says "It is significant that whenever the term "Muslims" occurs in `Uthman b. `Abdullah b. Bishr's chronicle, `Unwan al-Majd fi Tarikh Najd, it refers exclusively to the Wahhabis. But the Wahhabi dismissal of all Muslims other than themselves as non-believers is of more than historical significance." Finally, we are not talking about their understanding of 'Jihad' and I have no idea about it. --Mhhossein ^talk 14:35, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Do I have to give you a lesson on how to write content? You do not copy exact passages from sources, that is breach of copyright, instead you use the content in the sources to accurately summarise what those sources contain. It is an entirely accurate summary of the content in the cited source to say that the Wahhabis did not consider the Shia inhabitants of Karbala to be Muslims. Are you actually denying (despite the source saying that Wahhabis considered that only followers of their interpretation of Islam were Muslims) that the Wahhabis did not consider the Shia inhabitants of Karbala to be Muslims? If you are, what is your sourced explanation for the reason behind their attack on the town? Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 19:21, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Tiptoethrutheminefield: Stop speaking in this harsh and impolite manner. As it seems, you have no idea of WP:OR! no, no part of the book says that exactly. The author insists on Wahhabis dismissal behavior towards all other Mulsims except they themselves, while you're restricting this behavior to Shi'a Muslims. If you insist on putting that sentence, you need to build a consensus via gathering more views and/or opening RFCs. --Mhhossein ^talk 06:14, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

I am happy to initiate a RfC on whether there should be text in the article that would say that the Wahhabis did not consider the Shia Muslim inhabitants of Karbala to be Muslims. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 13:48, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

But your RFC should be on whether the source says that "Wahhabis referred to themselves as 'Muslims', as Ibn Bishr did, since they did not consider the Shia Muslim inhabitants of Karbala to be Muslims." --Mhhossein ^talk 13:59, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

That I think is too vague for the RfC subject, all that would be in the accompanying reasoning for having the text, (i.e., that it is, in my opinion, sourced and that the source gives the content in the context of Ibn Bishr's account of the attack on the town). The RfC would be about whether that particular text, or something close to that, should be in the article because it is that particular text that you have been objecting to and removing. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 14:18, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

For the nth time, you can't misinterpret the source! It's called WP:OR. --Mhhossein ^talk 16:39, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

Says you. However, I say it is not OR, that it accurately sums up what the source says without indulging in copyright violation by reproducing a large chunk of the text of the source. This is what the RfC will decide on! Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 21:29, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

So you believe that "The Wahhabis referred to themselves as 'Muslims', as Ibn Bishr did, since they did not consider the Shia Karbala inhabitants to be Muslims" is not OR considering the source saying: "Ibn Bishr emphasized the world 'Muslim' in the above quote to signify the Wahhabis, because Wahhabis call themselves Muslims to the exclusion of others."? As you already confessed above, 'others' refers to 'all other Muslims except Wahhabis' and the author never intended to restrict this Wahhabi dismissal belief toward "Shia Karbala inhabitants" as you are insisting. --Mhhossein ^talk 04:50, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

It is not original research. (Everyone except Wahhabis) clearly does include the Shia inhabitants of Karbala, while not being limited to them. And, those who suffered in the massacre were mostly (presumably not all) Shia inhabitants of Karbala. We may debate exactly what form of words to use, but we may legitimately write "Shia inhabitants of Karbala" if we want to. And, alternatively, we may fairly use short quotations where they are appropriate. What exact changes to the article would you two suggest? Richard Keatinge (talk) 16:08, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

Richard Keatinge: It's WP:OR because although "Everyone except Wahhabis) clearly does include the Shia inhabitants of Karbala," is not restricted to that. And as we know that the source does not appear to be restricting it, we can't make our original research by using "The Wahhabis referred to themselves as 'Muslims', as Ibn Bishr did, since they did not consider the Shia Karbala inhabitants to be Muslims." --Mhhossein ^talk 10:52, 11 September 2016 (UTC)