Talk:Benito Mussolini

The War of the Two Versions

First of all, I apologize for having put this section at the top but it is the most important thing to discuss presently and it sort of sums up some discussions that have already been held elsewhere. The page has been blocked and now we need to solve each single point that generated the conflict (revert war). I propose that we take separate decisions on each question, that's why I will divide this section in subsections.

Let's use [1] as a reference point. --MauroVan 09:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

There are many questions here. Most of them are triviliaties which I don't consider of vital imprtance to the article. I will give my take on the ones I consider intersting.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 10:37, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I know that many points are trivial but these trivialities seem to have had a role in fuelling the revert war. --MauroVan 12:53, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Seems like some editors are very fast at reverting and very slow at talking.--MauroVan 09:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Time has passed but nobody entered the debate. I think we should implement the decisions here taken after having unprotected the article. Francesco, can you ask for unprotection please? --MauroVan 08:31, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Picture

There are two proposals: File:Benito Mussolini 1.jpg and . Mussolini in military uniform or a thoughtful Mussolini in black? Somebody thinks that the uniform version could be seen as pro-Mussolini, somebody else thinks that it's a more typical picture of the man.

I think there's something in the compliant that the military photo could be seen as pro-Musso. But the Italian wiki uses it. It's not a big deal in itself.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 10:38, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Let's keep it like it is now (I don't even remember which version it is) with no caption (there was a crazy debate about the caption too...). --MauroVan 09:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Party name

In Italian (Partito Nazionale Fascista) or in English (National Fascist Party)?

Who cares?--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 10:39, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Partito Nazionale Fascista is a redirect to National Fascist Party, so let's use the latter. --MauroVan 12:57, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Wife name

Should she be called Rachele Mussolini or Donna Rachele Mussolini? "Donna" is not part of the proper name, since it just means "Lady" in Italian, but she was indeed widely known as "Donna Rachele" in Italy.

This is linguistically important. In English (this Wiki is in English), Donna Rachele Mussolini means: first name: Donna, Middle: Rachele, etc.. The answer is Rachele Mussolini.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 10:42, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree. --MauroVan 12:59, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Profession

Should we let the profession field blank or should we write "Elementary schoolmaster" there? Another option could be something like "Head of the Government" but it seems unlogical to put such a "job" in a President template. Another option could be "Journalist".

He was a "politician"!! --Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 10:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

This makes no sense in a President template! Each President is a politician... That field is of course for the job he had before turning into a politician. Both schoolmaster and journalist could fit. --MauroVan 09:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I see. In that case, journalist seems appropriate.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 11:24, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Religion

Most historians believe that Mussolini was intimately an Atheist. However, somebody tells that he got baptized while in power and indeed he often presented himself as a Roman Catholic leader, and he talked often about God in his public propaganda speeches. There have been two proposals: "Atheist" or "Atheist but being considered as a Roman Catholic since in power".

I feel the more complicated version to be more proper for the sidebox but in any case the full story must be explained in the body of the article. --MauroVan 13:06, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Birth place

Was he born in Predappio, where he's buried now, or in Dovia?

I discovered that Dovia is just a part of Predappio. I think we could write "Dovia di Predappio" and everybody should be satisfied. --MauroVan 13:18, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Fasci status in 1914

When WWI broke out, Mussolini took a position at variance with the Socialist Party and he was eventually expelled by the party. He founded the "Fasci d'azione rivoluzionaria internazionalista" in October 1914. Were these Fasci founded "within the Socialist Party" or not?

This is very important. He was no longer a socialist when he founded "the fasci d'azione rivoluzionari" according to DeFelice.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 10:45, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes. He was expelled from the Socialist Party when he wrote about the need for "active neutralism" on Avanti!, since this position was (correctly) seen as a theoretical maneuvre to get closer and closer to nationalist interventism. --MauroVan 09:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Giacomo Matteotti

Was Giacomo Matteotti an Internationalist Socialist or should we just call him a Socialist?

Who cares.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 10:46, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

From Wikipedia: "As a follower of Filippo Turati, Matteotti became the leader of the United Socialist Party in the Italian Chamber of Deputies". Turati split from the Socialist Party because he strongly opposed any contact between the Italian Socialists and the Communist International, therefore it's misleading to call Matteotti an Internationalist Socialist (that's how the left wing of mainstream Socialists were sometimes called because they wanted to find an agreement with the Third International): this anti-Fascist martyr was a member of the right wing of the Socialist movement in Italy. --MauroVan 13:23, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Slovene plot to kill Mussolini

Is it true that "members of TIGR, a Slovene anti-fascist group, plotted to kill Mussolini in Kobarid in 1938"? If it is, why shouldn't we add this information in the article?

I think this story is true and relevant. The Fascist regime executed many Jugoslav patriots. --MauroVan 09:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Anti-Semitism

Should we write that Italian Fascism didn't persecute the Jews before 1938? Should we put Mussolini in the category Anti-Semitic People?

Yes, it is a fact that he did not persecute the Jews before the racial laws (1938?). Not sure about the catgeory. There is some debate among scholars.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 10:48, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I think that the head of a government implementing racial laws against the Jews and helping the Nazis in the deportation of the Jews to the concentration camps, should be listed amongst Anti-Semitic People. --MauroVan 13:27, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Relationship with Hitler

Should we write that "Mussolini privately suggested that the Vatican consider excommunicating Adolf Hitler"? Can we rely on the source of this assertion? Should we explain the context of such a double-game maneuvre (1938: conflict with Germany about Austria)?

Yes to both.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 10:49, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Picture of Mussolini hanging

Should we show the picture of Mussolini and Claretta Petacci hanging by their feet in 1945? Somebody thinks there's no reason to put the picture there, but it's a very famous picture.

Use the Common's version, not the dubious fair use one that was being used previously.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 10:50, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Dictatorship

Should we put Mussolini in the list of dictators? Nobody has explained why we shouldn't.

Now, really!! Anyody who suggests he was not a dictator should not be editing this article.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 10:52, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely. --MauroVan 09:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Anti-Communism

Should we put Mussolini in the category Anti-Communists? Nobody has explained why we shouldn't.

Obviously.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 10:52, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Selected anniversary

An event mentioned in this article is a July 25 selected anniversary

Gold for the fatherland

So this initiative gained him support? From whom? To what degree? I have never heard any of my family speak positively about this initiative. Note: I've never seen one of the armbands, but I have seen the rings.

"voluntary" - interesting choice of words. If you didn't hand over the gold then you would likely be beaten. I don't see this as voluntary.

Level of support - this is simply not acceptable. Perhaps apologists want to make it sound like Mussolini had general support, but the country was divided internally.

This entire section seems founded on guesswork and seems grossly overstated - but I am 100% POV on this issue - so what do others know? Does anyone know of studies into this issue that could be cited? (I'm looking...) Yankoz

Perception by the Italian public

An user removed the following text from the article assuming that it was "POV" (I assume that he sees this as somehow condescendingtowards Mussolini): "He is more likely to be regarded as a buffoon than a monster, especially because of the over-the-top rhetoric of his famous speeches, that seems more ridiculous that threatening to most present-day Italians."

I can assure that this is quite representative of the average opinion in Italy: this can be testified by anyone that has a familiarity with Italian comical entertainment, where humorous depictions of Fascist party members and Mussolini himself can be seen often; those are used not only to make an anti-fascist statement but much for their pure satiric value. An example is the "Fascists on Mars" mockumentary by Guzzanti, created as a protest against historical revisionism, but also just for making fun of the pompous fascists spewing early-thirties rhetoric on a ridiculous and pointless quest.

This change has been reverted for the time being.--81.208.36.87 21:06, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I removed the text. I don't support Mussolini in any way (I have only provided sources and cleaned up the article, I sourced the statements on his atheism and his death). And I'm not familiar with any comedy lampooning Mussolini. I do agree with you that many Italians probably regard him as an idiot, but I don't think it's encyclopedic or deserving of being mentioned in the article unless you can provide a source. Even with a source it would be a very bold statement to say the subject of an article is stupid. But if you want to reinsert it it's fine with me, I just thought it to be a little pov'ed at the time. I'm trying to promote this article to good, and eventually, featured article status and am focusing on editing it to that point. Maybe we can cooperate in making it better. Aaрон Кинни (t) 21:26, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I've just been throuhg the harrowing experience of the revitalized, professionalized FAC process. Warning: YOU'VE GOT A LOOOOOOOOONG WAY TO GO. The images are good. But that's about all I can say. The proganda photo needs to be reduced or eliminated though. In this article, there are not only verbal redundancies, but content redundaneices!! It is way too long. Cut it in half, if you want a snowball's chance in the center of the Sun. The references are footnotes and no full bibliograohic refercnes at all are listed. Almost the enrite article is unsourced. Every sinlg claim needs to be sources, if you want to get through FAC. I could go on forever.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 18:48, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm Italian and I can assure that Mussolini isn't considered an idiot at all. A big part of Italian people consider Mussolini as an evil man, but there's also a significant number of people who consider Mussolini in a "neutral" way: he made many mistakes, but he also improved italian industry and realized Stazione Centrale in Milan, railways, roads and the whole city of Latina.

I'm not talking about a revaluation of Mussolini (that's a neo-fascist creation) but it's really important to know that Mussolini wasn't a "monster" a "non-human creature" a "Hitler's weaker clone". He was a man that was loved and hated at the same time.

Tell that to some of my Greek, Albanian or Ethiopan friends. Read the section on Ethipia and I would argue that he was worse than Hitler. Huler as arguably mentally ill. Mussolini has no such excuse.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 09:39, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

In Greek and Albany italian army was often defeatet. The german army came to help italian people and did the in-famous disaster. In Ethiopia italian army defeated a poor nation and THAT has no excuse. But italian also built bridges, wells and roads in that few years of the colony. Ethiopian people are still using italian infrastructures today. French who invaded a lot of island in the pacific, then Morocco, Senegal, Algeria, etc. are excused. Mussolini is a monster. Why? I got the answer: because we lost the war and French won. Mussolini made many mistakes, some of them terrible mistakes. But I do not understand: Mussolini ordered to invade Albany and Ethiopia and he has not to be excused. Truman ordered the atomic bomb and he is "good". CNL in Italy killed 80 innocent people in Schio and they are celebrated as "heroes who defeated facism". Can you tell me why some massacres are "good", some people are "good"?

Actually, I didn't know he invaded Albany, New York!! That's interesting news. I'll have to look that one up. The rules here are to sign your name on talk pages. Many Italians, like yourself, make me feel profoundly ill and ashamed that I wasn't born of a different nationality. It's bacially the only country that refuses to face up to its hideous totalitarisn past. As somone correctly pointed out below, the only difference between Musso and AH is that Musso was a failure even at evil. If he had had the capabilities of the Luftwaffe, the German panser division and so on, he would have done worse than Hitler. So what you're basically saying, anyway, is that Hitler was not so very bad after all, since Truman dropped the A-bomb (appropiately in my opinon, saving the hundered millions of lives that wuld have been lòst in a full invasion of Japan))? Give me a break. Some people are fundemnatally evil and othere are not. It's as simple as that. Ted Bundy was evil. People who spend their lives working to save other's lives and engaining on other self-sacrificing activities are not. Why? That's a very complex question there: bad genes, bad social eniroment, some combination of the two, free will? The debate goes on. But the fact rests that some folks do horrible, destructive things and others do not.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 10:25, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

You have to be ashamed cause you're talking about "race". I'm italian but you don't know the color of my skin.

Archived

This talk page was blanked some time ago, I'm not sure if a vandal or not (or unintentional) but I got a hold of the old version and archived it because I didn't want to mess up the current discussions. It can be found here. Эйрон Кинни (t) 10:58, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Arnaldo de Stupid

(search for this text in the page) someone vandalised it, obviously; but I have no idea what to change it back to. Arnaldo Mussolini, perhaps?

Collapse of Italian liberalism

How come the fascists wanted to avoid the collapse of Italian liberalism? Wouldn't this only be to their advantage? Please answer. - 1 March 2006

Mussolini and Jews

These 2 sentences made me choke on my miso:

"In fact, Mussolini has been said to have saved more Jews than even Oskar Schindler. Later, he would refuse to allow Jews to be deported to concentration camps until Germany occupied Italy during the war (a period depicted in the movie, The Garden of the Finzi-Continis)."

...and I would like to see the assertion footnoted if it's true. Who said it? Chaikney 22:25, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

It's a well know historical fact that Jews weren't deported from Italy. Jews in Vichy France, which was policed by the Italians, weren't required to wear the Yellow star.

Mussolini did persecute the Jews in order to impress Hitler; I was unaware of any claims that he was a savior to the Jews in Europe.

Mussolini gave 6000 jews circa to Gestapo. One of them was Primo Levi. So he did persecute the Jews. Some people said that he wanted to impress Hitler, others that he was under pressure. It's also a fact that facism did not persecute jews in its "dogma": in fact Mussolini had a jew lover and many jew friends.

Absolutely true that Mussolini did persecute the Jews. Absolutely false that Italian Fascism had no anti-Semitism in its "dogma": just consider that a state-funded magazine called La difesa della razza (The defence of the race) was published by prominent Fascist "intellectuals". I even saw with my own eyes original propaganda posters from the Fascist era depicting a "Jewish embryo" (with big nose, kippah and everything) and a label reading something like "1950. Jew, a race now extincted thanks to some very wise men". Italian Fascism was much more similiar to German Nazism than is usually recognized. The fact that Mussolini, as a man, was such a ridiculous clown didn't make him, as a dictator, less dangerous and blood-thirsty than Hitler. His regime was just weaker and less organized (like all Italian governments in history). Example: Some covers and pictures from La difesa della razza --MauroVan 08:53, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

My impression, perhaps wrong, was that overall Italian Fascism was more cultural than racial and viewed Jews as a foreign culture and hated them for that reason but allowed Jews if they acted Italian. Primo Levi's example shows that deportation of Jews did not pick up until the Italian Social Republic was installed and it became a Nazi puppet, Primo Levi himself didn't realize the extent of the anti-Semitism because he thought he would be punished more for him being a partisan than for him being a Jew. There was definitely less of a genetic obsession in Italian Facism than in Nazism. Though given the extreme nationalism that defined Facism, large scale anti-Semitism of both cultural and genetic types would easily florish, and whatever the official dogma of the Facist party, both types of anti-Semitism would find plenty of very nationalist intellectuals willing to make propaganda. I think it really would be a mistake to equate Italian Facism as Nazism lite, they differ in emphasis and some areas of dogma and policy in my mind, though they are alike enough to be placed in the umbrella term Facism. And I think that it would a mistake to regard Mussolini's regime as weak, it had widespread popular support and while corruption weakened it, it had a powerful state apparatus. A simple of its power can be seen in the fact that it accomplished an age old goal of Italian governments, suppressing the Sicilian Mafia (through massive civil rights violations, and the Mafia was able to start up quickly after the war due to mistakes of American occupation, anti-communism, and the lessening of the state power and civil rights violations of the post-WWII Italian government) Jztinfinity 18:54, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Quotes

• "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it is the merger of state and corporate power." Could someone please cite a source for this quote? - japhyfoo@backword.net

I have spent several months trying to find this quote. It appears to be a very bad translation of a section on corporatism supposedly written by Mussolini for the Enciclopedia Italiana (1932), but several English translations do not contain anything like this quote. Chip Berlet <cberlet@igc.org>.

moved off main page left quote on that page User:Smith03

Berlet: I have tracked down the original 1935 English version of Mussolini's pamphlet, Mussolini, Benito. 1935. "The Doctrine of Fascism." (Firenze: Vallecchi Editore), which is listed as a translation of Mussolini's article in the Enciclopedia Italiana (1932). The quote above does not appear. Nor does it appear in a longer booklet which contains "The Doctrine of Fascism" as a chapter:

Mussolini, Benito. 1935. "Fascism: Doctrine and Institutions." (Rome: 'Ardita' Publishers).

I asked a scholar in Europe to find the quote in the Enciclopedia Italiana (1932), and he said he could not find a sentence that translates into the quote above. Until someone who reads Italian, and checks the Enciclopedia Italiana (1932), and finds there is a sentence that can be accureatly translated into the above quote, I think the quote should not be listed. Chip Berlet <cberlet@igc.org>.

---

I went and copied the original article in the Enciclopedia Italiana, in case anyone wants to pick a page it is supposed to be on. If someone wants to argue this quote exists, please cite the page and paragraph from this or another original document. In the meantime, here are some actual quotes from English tranlations.

The Fascist conception of the State is all-embracing; outside of it no human or spiritual values can exist, much less have value. Thus understood, Fascism is totalitarian, and the Fascist State--a synthesis and a unit inclusive of all values--interprets, develops, and potentiates the whole life of a people. (p. 14)

Fascism recognises the real needs which gave rise to socialism and trade-unionism, giving them due weight in the guild or corporative system in which diverent interests are coordinated and harmonised in the unity of the State. (p.15)

Yet if anyone cares to read over the now crumbling minutes giving an account of the meetings at which the Italian Fasci di Combattimento were founded, he will find not a doctrine but a series of pointers… (p. 23)

"It may be objected that this program implies a return to the guilds (corporazioni). No matter!... I therefore hope this assembly will accept the economic claims advanced by national syndicalism." (p. 24)

Fascism is definitely and absolutely opposed to the doctrines of liberalism, both in the political and economic sphere. (p. 32)

The Fascist State lays claim to rule in the economic field no less than in others; it makes its action felt throughout the length and breadth of the country by means of its corporate, social, and educational institutions, and all the political, economic, and spiritual forces of the nation, organised in their respective associations, circulate within the State. (p. 41).

Benito Mussolini, 1935, "The Doctrine of Fascism," Firenze: Vallecchi Editore.

The Labour Charter (Promulgated by the Grand Council ofr Fascism on April 21, 1927)—(published in the Gazzetta Ufficiale, April 3, 1927) [sic] (p. 133)

The Corporate State and its Organization (p. 133)

The corporate State considers that private enterprise in the sphere of production is the most effective and usefu [sic] [typo-should be: useful] instrument in the interest of the nation.

In view of the fact that private organisation of production is a function of national concern, the organiser of the enterprise is responsible to the State for the direction given to production.

State intervention in economic production arises only when private initiative is lacking or insufficient, or when the political interests of the State are involved. This intervention may take the form of control, assistance or direct management. (pp. 135-136)

Benito Mussolini, 1935, "Fascism: Doctrine and Institutions," Rome: 'Ardita' Publishers.

Hope this is useful. --Cberlet 04:58, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Badoglio's quote

AFAIK the quote:
"La guerra continua a fianco dell'Alleato Germanico" ("War continues at the side of our German allies")
in the article, is correctly reported. Just a minor error: the literal translation is "the german ally

Benito Mussolini The Rise And Fall Of il Duce by Christopher Hibbert 1962

This biography goes into a lot of detail about Mussolinis death, etc. He and his mistress were shot outside the Villa Belmonte. The guns didnt work properly. His mistress was shot first as she grabbed the barrel of the gun. Mussolini held back the lapels of his jacket and said "Shoot me in the chest" (his last words). It took another shot to finish him off. They were taken in a removals van along with the bodies of 15 other high-ranking fascists and dumped in the Pizzale Loreto. Eventually Mussolini and his mistress (and two other people according to the photo) were strung up upside down so that the large crowd which had gathered could see them. I think this book is well worth reading if your interested in Mussolini. I've only read the final part so far. It also gives several pages evaluating the worth of the various sources, plus a very long bibliography. I do not know how to edit the article page, hence putting it here. Sorry, been having a lot of problems trying to add to this page without erasing other peoples comments. What I thought was a 2 minute job has now taken over an hour. If this final edit does not work, perhaps someone else can sort it out for me, as I'm giving up. Thanks. Archie.

Mussolini as a member of the Italian Socialist Party

I assume his belonging to the Category:Members of the Italian Socialist Party was deleted with the belief that it constituted vandalism. I have created the said cat in the belief that it should cover people who have been active there at any given time (hence the caption at the top of the cat page). I am a left-winger myself, so I have no special need to slander the socialists (as I assume people using "Roman-Catholic" vs. "Atheist" or vice-versa have had), nor is this connected with the idiotic pretense that state ownership=fascism. Mussolini's activities in the PSI cover an important part of his life, and the controversies he had with the rest of the party are covered only too well here and in other articles - so no one should view this as somehow incriminating the rest of the PSI. However, if I am wrong and this was erased by fascists who want to cover their tracks according to the demands of their own ideology, then I ask them to go and dunk their heads in pools of crap. I am puzzled as to who did it and why because I haven't checked the article in a long while, and I'd have a hard time checking edits version by version. Please, if you see this category removed again, revert to a version showing it or add it to the newest version. Thanks. Dahn 20:41, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Bavarian Soviet Republic

a short-lived Soviet influence was established in Bavaria just about this time. The Bavarian Soviet Republic was founded in 1919, three years before Mussolini would form a government. Intangible 19:06, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

CDU

He was a member of the CDU-party in Germany??? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.247.27.196 (talk • contribs) .

I don't think so. The CDU didn't exist back then, the incarnation was the Centre Party and I'm not sure about the membership requirements, but it is highly unlikely. Эйрон Кинни (t) 10:32, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Especially since he is sourced to be an atheist. Aaрон Кинни (t) 21:20, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Not a copyvio

this dif is the development of the version that ende up on this site. Rich Farmbrough 11:07 29 June 2006 (GMT).

Il Duce's Jewish Mistress

It's not in a book or an academic journal, so I'm not quite sure how to use it, but none the less it's quite fascinating. The Jewish mother of FascismMargherita Sarfatti. Take Care! --Will^(talk) 09:12, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

WP was ahead of me, see Margherita Sarfatti Now just need to integrat it into this article. Take Care! --Will^(talk) 11:57, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

This seems undeserving of a section, it seems like a historical curiosity than an important facet of Mussolini's life, unless he says somewhere that this was the love of his life, this should be lessened in importance, given maybe a sentence or two. Perhaps a better section would be "Mussolini and Anti-Semitism" or "Mussolini and Nazism" Jztinfinity 18:39, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Photo Caption

I changed two letters in the photo caption "A portrait of a passive Mussolini" so that it now reads "A portrait of a pensive Mussolini". Hi There 08:48, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Pensive is not an appropriate description, unless Mussolini actually told the photographer that he felt pensive and the photographer noted that somewhere. The caption should not claim to know anything about his state of mind as the portrait was taken. Remember: WP:VERIFY. I don’t think the photo needs a caption at all. It’s quite obviously Mussolini, and he’s not doing anything in the photo, so there’s nothing for a caption to comment on. --Rob Kennedy 08:41, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

When Did He Become Editor of Avanti

In the section "Early Years" we read the following: "After his return to Italy ... he joined the staff of the "Central Organ of the Socialist Party", Avanti!... Mussolini had a brother, Arnaldo, who would later become the editor of Il Popolo d'Italia, the official newspaper of Benito Mussolini's Fascist Party (November 1922)." The section ends, and the next section, entitled "Birth Of Fascism" has the following "These syndicalists formed a group called Fasci d'azione rivoluzionaria internazionalista in October 1914. Massimo Rocca and Tulio Masotti asked Mussolini to settle the contradiction of his support for interventionism and still being the editor of Avanti!..." Firstly, the line about his brother seems to have no relation to the rest of the paragraph, and is misplaced in that it is out of chronologically out of context too. I.e. we are reading about events of 1910, we then read a mention of his brother and 1922, and then we are again reading about 1914 and Mussolini's attitude towards intervention. The next problem is, that when we left him in the previous section Mussolini had merely joined the staff of Avanti, and now he is the editor; a mention should be made of his accession to the editorship, I should think.Hi There 08:48, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Removed a duplicated part of the section "Fascist Dictatorship"

The last half of the last paragraph in the section "Fascist Dictatorship" contains the following sentence: "But his "axis" with Germany was confirmed when he made the "Pact of Steel" with Hitler in May 1939. Clearly the subordinate partner, Mussolini followed the Nazis in adopting a racial policy that led to persecution of the Jews and the creation of apartheid in the Italian empire. Before this, Jews were not specifically persecuted by Mussolini's government, and were permitted to be high members of the Party. Members of TIGR, a Slovene anti-fascist group, plotted to kill Mussolini in Kobarid in 1938, but were unsuccessful. One of Mussolini's famous quotes is "If I retreat, kill me"". I have removed this sentence because it is repeated nearly verbatim in the following section "The Axis of Blood and Steel." Hi There 17:46, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Request for amplication of Mussolini's suggestion that the Vatican excommunicate Hitler

The statements "Mussolini did not approve all policies of Hitler and in April, 1938, Mussolini privately suggested that the Vatican consider excommunicating Adolf Hitler." really could use more detail! I would expect that anyone reading this article would also be interested to know. Hi There 18:02, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

It's probably false. I've never read such a thing in DeFelice or anyone else. Source it or remove it.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 18:50, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

This story is a hoax. --MauroVan 09:01, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Please, no revert war!

There is no need for revert war. If there is a problem we can sort it out with civilized discussion. Kurt.

Fine. You can leave the photo in, if that is the consensus of the editors. My main concern is that here are simply too many unnecesary images in this article. It looks like a widow's shrine to Mussolini, for heaven's sake.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 13:44, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

"Someone..." I take it you mean me. I am not trying to distract anyone from reading the article. The pictures have historical value and are relevant. I am NOT a fascist. Kurt.

You seem intent on demontrsating that you ARE, for some reason. Look, I don't have time for this nonsense. The article can go to hell, as far as I'm concerned. I'm delisting this. --Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 13:52, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

change of photo

Let's go through a bit of the history of what haappend in the last 20 minutes or so. User:Kurt changed the photo in the infobox to the current version. In the editbox, he wrote that someone had called him a fascist. I certainly had not called Kurt a fascist as far as I can remember. However, I did not like the photo and reverted back, sugessting that it was "too propanganstic" and might give an impression of bias. Kurt reverted back and explinaed that the milairy uniform was more appropoate. I accepted the point, but then I removed some of the other photos because I though the article was starting to look gaudy and shrine-like. Kurt disagrees. That's all there is to it. I will leave it up to the consensus of editors to decide. There should be no edit-warring about the matter.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 14:29, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

just popped by here after seeing a bbc article on Mussolini's grandson. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5314574.stm and have been reading a bit about the revert war as a result. I don't agree with your view that the uniform image is at all propaganda. In all references I've seen of mussolini in history books from way back when, he was always shown in uniform. If anything, I think showing the uniform is anti-fascist... Anyway that's my 2 cents.. --15.203.137.72 11:10, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Ironplay and Kurt

Ah hah!! I think I get the idea of this game. You guys seem to be in some sort of long-interval edit war, where one person reverts everything that has been posted by the other (ignoring all the stuff in between) after about a day or so. This way you can dodge the 3RR and other rules. Bizarre and inappropriate behavior. Ironplay, never mind.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 15:32, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Kurt was already blocked several times for that kind of behavior (last time for a month). And if he keeps on doing that, he will probably end up blocked again... -- Grafikm ^(AutoGRAF) 15:34, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Alright then. Keep an eye on these fellows edits here. It gets ridiculous. --Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 15:37, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

"You guys seem to be in some sort of long-interval edit war" I don't even know who this Ironplay is, all I know is that he has strange habid of reverting many articles I edit. As a matter of fact, his behaviour is strangely similiar to user SuperDeng (SuperDeng and I had very bad moments in the past) "Bizarre and inappropriate behavior" I do not wish revert wars with anyone. Have you bothered to check the talk pages of of few articles I recently edited? "Everyone's on to you now." This is most confusing. And I am not trying to whitewash anything. Kurt.

I asked this page to be blocked for a while just to let the kids have fun somewhere else. Then we could move on to make it a proper Wikipedia article. --MauroVan 09:04, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

OK, it's blocked now. Let's open a new thread on the top of this page and make an attempt to sort out all the single issues that created the revert war. --MauroVan 09:09, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Jewish mistress

This seems undeserving of a section, it seems like a historical curiosity than an important facet of Mussolini's life, unless he says somewhere that this was the love of his life, this should be lessened in importance, given maybe a sentence or two. Perhaps a better section would be "Mussolini and Anti-Semitism" or "Mussolini and Nazism" Jztinfinity 18:39, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

In complete agreement with the above: it adds nothing to our understanding of the subject, and is essentially of a trivial and passing nature. White Guard 01:03, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Executed or Murdered?

To say that Mussolini was 'executed' presupposes some form of legal process, when in fact he was murdered by Communists without trial. Might I suggest 'killed' or 'shot' as a more neutral term? White Guard 01:09, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

What does it say on the Ceacescu page about the murder of Ceacesucu, for example? Let's be consistent. If it says mudered here, it should say murdered there. If it says executed there, it should say executed here. Period.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 07:27, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Tyrannicide (or regicide) is abtually a very controverssial issue, since it is the tyrant himself who abolished the rule of law and put himself above it.

Since there was no rule of law, excpet the dicatates of one man, then I think the word execution is fine. other men decided to take the law into their own hands. At that point, he was no longer the law and they were.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 09:57, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

It was just a small point of-neutral-clarification, and I had really no wish to enter into a debate over semantics. Let it remain as 'executed' if you wish. I do, however, contest your point about the Fascist state simply being the will of one man; it was far more complex than that. And for a murderous collection of Communist bandits to be defined as 'the law' is, I think, a statement rich in irony. I have always wondered why they were in such a hurry to 'execute' Mussolini rather than to have him face trial Nuremberg style? There may, I suspect, have been some fears about the possible outcome of such a process. White Guard 22:41, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I know, WG, it's just as old Berlusconi said "Mussolini only sent people on vacations on the islands." And the Holocaust never happened either?? Fascism lives!! Only on the Wackipedia, ladies and gentlemen.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 07:36, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

The evidence of his direct invlvement in war crimes and genocide is much more abundant tha anything that has ever been found against AH. just read the article. I've added and documented much of it. There is much, much more where that came from. Ceacessu the Communist, on the other hand, was given a phony trial (why??? couldn't find anything on him?) and assasinated by the White Guards of the Catholic Church.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 07:45, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Ah, yes; it's now becoming very clear: you obviously are carrying far too much emotional and ideological baggage to look at the career of Mussolini with detachment and objectivity. And as for Fascism yours is obviously of the Red variety. I intend to examine this article with care, to make sure it has not been polluted by you and your kind. The Catholic Church in Roumania? Please, please, try to calm down-better for your heart. White Guard 19:57, 3 September 2006 (UTC) White Guard 19:57, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Go ahead. Neo-fascists have attempted to whitewash the histiry on this page many, many times in the past. They have almost always failed in their efforts. For the purposes of the article, please use reliable and verifiable sources for any of your edits. As to the "red Communism", not even close. I'm a moderate social democrat. My grandfather was a member of the Partito d'Azione (liberal/socialist hybrid) whose basic platform was strong anti-fascim, anti-Communism and anti-totalitarianims of any stripe. You need to study a little bit of Italian history, my friend, before you can even begin to the slightest idea of what you're talking about. --Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 07:00, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I can assure you of one thing, comrade: I am not your friend. I care nothing about your-or your grandfather's-political affiliations. You gave obvious clues to your true loyalties by your ludicrous rant about Ceausescu and the Catholic Church. I started this discussion over a quite innocent point about the nature and circumstances of Mussolini's death. I did not expect that, in so short a space of time, it would lead me to the intense dislike and suspicion of someone I have never met, or ever likely to meet. You really are a very emotional and immature individual, too much so, I suspect, for rational adult debate. You must be under a lot of stress. Might I suggest you take a break, have a rest and calm down? Before replying to any of this-if reply you desire-have a seditive or count slowly up to a hundred: it may help you to think rationally. Incidentally, any edits I may make to this page will be based on reliable sources, not political prejudice. But I have my eye on you as a possible corrupter. White Guard 07:38, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Fine then, we are enemies. Who cares?? You seem to enjoy babbling on talk pages. Please see Wikipedia is not a forum. If you have something to add to the article, go right ahead and do it. Your content will be heavily scrutinized by myself and others who recogzine my extremely well-established credibility as an exopedian. Period.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 08:08, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

PS, if you want to take this any furhter, please go to my personal talk page.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 08:11, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

PPS. I am deeply anti-religious (particulayrly anti-Catholic) but does that entail communism? Impeccable logic!!--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 08:16, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

The Partisans were ordered to kill Mussolini by the leadership of the Resistance movement. The man who's widely considered to be the material executor of the killing, the Communist Walter Audisio, declared to have received the order from general Raffaele Cadorna who was hardly a Communist.

In my opinion, killing Mussolini was the best thing to do in that context and I really don't care whether it was the decision of some wise individuals or the decision of an official body.

Had not he been killed, he would have probably be freed by the Allies or by the Italian "Antifascist" state itself, as happened to most Italian war criminals. There was never anything like a Nuremberg trial in Italy after the war, on the opposite the Fascists found an easy way to freedom and hundreds of former Partisans and Antifascists were put in jail. The far-sighted act of cutting short Mussolini's life managed at least to prevent the man from being recycled later.

However, I would use the word "kill" which doesn't convey any moral judgement on the action. "Murder" does, therefore it's absolutely unacceptable. --MauroVan 13:46, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the precise technical term in English is "summarily executed". --Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 15:07, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Comrade, comrade, you condemn yourself by your own words, which you seem incapable of understanding. I quote ; "...Ceacessu (sic) the Communist, on the other hand, was given a phony trial (why??? couldn't find anything on him?) and assasinated (sic) by the White Guards of the Catholic Church." They are your words; read them over if you wish, just to make sure. And you say you are not a Communist? I find that hard to believe. You are certainly highly irrational, which, for a student of philosophy, must be a real handicap. I have no intention of joining you on your talk page, or anywhere else, and as far as I am concerned this debate is at an end. I repeat, however, that I have an eye on you, and will be immediately aware of any Red distortions of the truth. Go on, have the last word; it is not in your nature to resist. White Guard 22:41, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I didn't know until now that it was a crime to be a Communist. I am. So what? Moreover, Wikipedia is not a forum as you should know. Personal opinions of editor Francesco don't need to be discussed here. --MauroVan 07:58, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Read and try and make sense of some of his ranting-the suggestion, amongst other things, that I might just be a Fascist and Holocaust denier, and his ludicrous conjecture about the Catholic Church and Ceausescu. If he dosen't want his opinions discussed he should not offer them; I certainly did not ask to receive them. You are a Communist? You have my deepest sympathies, comrade; I've always considered it more as a political disease rather than a system of ideas. Mussolini, in his early days, did much to save Italy from this contagion. My point of view, of course. White Guard 09:46, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

On my talk page....White coward.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 09:58, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

LOL!! Really I'm having a ball with this nut!!--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 10:05, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Be careful though. I see you are a new fellow. You might learn something from what happned to [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Alessandra_Mussolini someone] very much like yourself. He's no longer with us!!--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 10:09, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a forum. Francesco, I urge you to cool down, of course that guy likes to be banned, I'm sure he will manage to, but I'd rather like you to remain here and help with the improvement of this and other articles! His opinions don't even deserve a reply. History already gave a harsh reply to such non-sense. Non ti curar di loro, ma guarda e passa... --MauroVan 13:01, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for drawing my attention to that interesting 'debate'. I can assure you, comrades both, that I will never descend to petty personal abuse-unlike Mr. Franco-which I believe to be a sure sign of a childish and incoherent mind. You will never find any occasion by my words-or actions-to have me banned; so your joint conspiracy-and natural inclination-to silence dissent in typical Communist fashion will not work. I'm so sorry. White Guard 19:24, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

The "british" path

pls remember that History books are always written by winners ... besides that, no-matter if "murdered or executed", the exact circumstances of Mussolini and Petacci deaths are not clear at all, after over 60 years. There are also serious speculations and witnesses that they were killed by british intelligence, to take possession of secret documents proving that Mussolini and Chrchill were nogotiating a separate peace, in anti-soviet function. The it.wiki article deals with this theory, which has been also told in some italian state television broadcasts. According to this theory the partisans arrived too late, and only made a "dummy" execution, to carry on the sentence issued by italian CLN. Some months ago I edited the en.wiki with this story, but, after some months it was removed without serious explanation -- @ ^_ 20:35, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Quick and simple answer: Are you seriously suggesting that the The Italian wikipedia is to be taken seriously. I have yet to come across an article there that would even pass GA status over here. I once consulted the The Italian wikipedia article on fascism and found that it claimed "Garibaldi, a member of the masonic lodge blah, blah, blah, invented the term fascio." I asked for a citation in three or four places and received no response for about three weeks. So, I then proceeded to cut it out. No one noticed for about three months!!

I translated an FA article on David Hilbert from that.....thing.....and, as a result, I have been bombarded by questions about the sources of various ridiculous statements. There are only two references on the bottom of the page (no in-line cites, nothing!!) and, since they were on mathematics and not biography, they were almost certainly not the sources of the statements. Please take a look at the Italian wiki article on Giacomo Leopardi. It looks like it was done by a group of seven-year-olds. the explanation for the deletion is that, on the English wikipeida, if you don't provide a credible, verifiable source for any text, it can be deleted spot on. Period. Mediaset is NOT a credible source, BTW.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 08:35, 6 September 2006 (UTC)