Talk:Charlie Zeleny

Tasks

I added links, fixed spelling, grammar, and orientation of the materials given. Linked to more sources, pulled more facts off the pages, and overall fleshed the article out more. Added a musician box but have left picture out because I am uncertain of the copyright laws. Also starting to go around to other pages mentioning Charlie and linking back to this article. Is there anything else to be done?

Contested deletion

This article should not be speedily deleted for lack of asserted importance because Charlie Zeleny is an important member of the American session musician community and is a drummer who plays with major bands and artists including Blotted Science, Behold the Arctopus, Jordan Rudess, Terry Bozzio, Joe Lynn Turner, Steve Augeri, The Great Kat, Gala, Thalia, Outasight among many others. This article is not vandalism, SPAM, or an attack page against Charlie Zeleny or anyone.

Furthermore, this article has been on Wikipedia successfully for 5 years and are current changes are updates to the Biography of Charlie Zeleny including new and updated musical projects. All References are being added over the next couple of days. Please do not delete this article during this update process.

Charlie Zeleny has played on over 135 records, many by major bands and artist on major labels. He is also well renowned specifically for his Drumageddon series of YouTube videos garnering over 1 million views and thousands of subscribers. He's been featured and interviewed in hundreds of publications, received front page newspaper and magazine coverage and been featured on the front page online magazine articles, blogs and interviews. Also, Charlie Z is mentioned in 4 music history books as being significant here with references added here:

Hard Cover Books: Mean Deviation: Four Decades of Progressive Heavy Metal by Jeff Wagner[17], The 100 Greatest Metal Guitarists Book by Joel McIver[18], New Wave of American Heavy Metal by Gary Sharpe-Young[19] and Encyclopedia of Bohemian and Czech-American Biography, Volume 1 by Miloslav Rechcigl Jr[20].

Please let me know if there are any additional edits that need to be made to this article to save it from the Speedy Deletion process. Thank you very much.

--100.35.194.25 (talk) 22:19, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

Still Sourcing + Formatting Current Document, Please Refrain From Removing Links For A Couple Days

Please do not delete or alter un-sourced info or change formatting yet on this page. Everything is being sourced and formatted to work better for the Wikipedia community. Thank you very much.

There is way too much unsourced intricate detail in the article. Please feel free to add back sourced and referenced info. The article still needs a great deal of trimming and removal of over linking. Naming every station or newspaper that ever mentioned the subject imparts no knowledge about him. Add referenced statements and info, thanks. There are no couple of days. Unsourced info can be removed at anytime. Pauciloquence (talk) 11:04, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Hey Pauciloquence: Charlie Zeleny Page: Still Sourcing + Formatting Current Document, Please Refrain From Removing Links For A Couple Days

Please do not delete or alter un-sourced info or change formatting yet on this page. Everything is being formatted and sourced over the next couple of days. Thank you very much.

There is way too much unsourced intricate detail in the article. Please feel free to add back sourced and referenced info. The article still needs a great deal of trimming and removal of over linking. Naming every station or newspaper that ever mentioned the subject imparts no knowledge about him. Add referenced statements and info, thanks. Please discuss further on article talk page. Pauciloquence (talk) 10:58, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick response. Spent a good deal of time working on the format to clean up the article first and foremost and was adding in the sources currently when you removed much of the article. Would be great if you can hold off on editing things for a bit. If you can't, will have to add back individually very slowly which will be extra time consuming.

There is information in this article that has been on the Wikipedia site for 5 years that you removed that appears to be pertinent for a prominent drummer, specifically his gear drumset breakdown. Check here for a drummer that is referenced in the Charlie Zeleny article for a Gear breakdown example sourced similarly as was on the site before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Roddy

Unsourced info can be removed at any time. Please see talk page for article. Please sign your post with four of these ~ You have plenty of time to add sourced and referenced info to the article. Just because a lot of unsorced info was on there for five years is no excuse. Like I said unsourced info can be removed at anytime. Maybe you might want to work on your updated version in your sandbox or something. best regards. Pauciloquence (talk) 11:17, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Just recently started using the preview sandbox situation which is why the updates were now coming much more slowly but more completely over here. Will have to go through and manually update everything individually then. Understood about sourcing and will do so thoroughly for all noteworthy biographical information on the subject.

In the meantime, can you point me to any drummer pages that you feel are more along the lines of what this should look like overall?

Here are similar drummers that Charlie Zeleny has been associated with throughout his projects:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Bozzio
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Jarzombek
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Roddy
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Adler
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Minnemann
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Portnoy

The Gear section looks like it was the listed the same as the other drummers' pages and should be added back in as it was. Furthermore, the photo directly next to the Gear section shows the Gear that was listed. This specific picture actually shows up on Page 1 of a Google Search for the term "drumset" underneath Terry Bozzio's drumset. Please let me know. Thank you very much. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.35.194.25 (talk) 11:31, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Usage of unreliable sources in article

I have removed a reference to linkedin as unreliable. References to facebook, social sites and youtube are also considered unreliable and should not be used within the article. Pauciloquence (talk) 10:16, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Understood on LinkedIn as unreliable or other social sites. Will find better sources for those particular links. But I must respectfully disagree on YouTube not being a valid source since that is the actual Video material in the Discography section. If you check all the current new sources on the Videos in the References, the references linked are the actual videos of the subject performing with the selected artists. It is clearly stated that YouTube is a valid source in the Wikipedia guidelines. Please do not remove or edits these links. Thank you very much. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.35.194.25 (talk) 10:24, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Please see this excerpt from the reliable sources noticeboard:

"YouTube as a source

I have been the primary editor of Justine Ezarik for some time and have consistently tried to eliminate use of YouTube as a source. This includes, citing its pageview statistics as a source for popularity. I have recently been involved in a pair of popular viral videos (Kony 2012 and Cat Daddy) and am now wondering if it is Kosher to cite YouTube for number of pageviews and upload date.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:01, 6 May 2012 (UTC) Nope. It is a "primary source" for what you seem to wish to use it - and the only value of the stats is in the area of what WP fondly calls "original research." If and only if a reliable third party source publishes the data does Wikipedia like to see it used. Cheers. Collect (talk) 22:07, 6 May 2012 (UTC) Collect (talk) 22:07, 6 May 2012 (UTC)"

located here:[1] Pauciloquence (talk) 11:38, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

From the same article link you provided:

Yes and no. YouTube is fine to cite for number of page views and upload date. Primary sources can be used to make straightforward statements of facts that any educated person will be able to verify. So, yes, it's perfectly fine to cite YouTube for the number of times a video is watched or when it was uploaded. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:11, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

The issue here is verifiability, whether a reader can go to the appropriate YouTube page and verify that the video was uploaded on a particular day and has X number of views without performing any interpretation or analysis. The answer to that question is yes. Not technically, yes, but absolutely yes. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:57, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Youtube is an acceptable source. Drawing any conclusion from those numbers is not ok. -- Despayre tête-à-tête 01:13, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

11:38, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

YouTube is an acceptable source for referencing facts and the subject's releases. Thank you very much. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.35.194.25 (talk) 12:43, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

We do not agree. Please cite where the guidelines state that youtube is a reliable source. Pauciloquence (talk) 12:48, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

The information provided is found directly underneath the comment you provided here:

[2] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.35.194.25 (talk) 13:12, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Targeted Negative Campaign - Charlie Zeleny Wikipedia Page

This is starting to appear to be a targeted negative campaign against the subject's site with the amount of massive editing you have personally done on this particular page (almost -12,000 words in 2 days). This is very peculiar especially since you have only 2 days worth of editing history with the majority of deletions happening on the Charlie Zeleny page when all other pages in your history are very minor edits (even when these pages have the same problems you claim the Charlie Zeleny page has).

The current page of Charlie Zeleny has 41 References so far and there will be the addition of many more to support any and all claims found in the subject's article. These 41 references are already almost 4x as many as other major drummer figures on Wikipedia including one that Charlie Zeleny has taken over for named Chris Adler from Lamb of God when Charlie joined Blotted Science (Chris Adler has only 11 sources on a page that has no problems whatsoever). The fact that the Charlie Zeleny page is experiencing this much difficulty with this amount of sources and references makes no sense whatsoever when there are many other major drummer figure sites that are very similar in format, style and overall information (including the deleted Gear section and other biographical information). Here are drummer pages that all have less sources currently than the Charlie Zeleny page of drummers who are associated with the subject on his projects (there are many more to list if needed):

Terry_Bozzio, Bobby_Jarzombek, Derek_Roddy, Chris_Adler, Marco_Minnemann, Mike_Portnoy

Here are other drummer pages with less sources than the current Charlie Zeleny page and similar sources that are being disputed. These pages are existing without any problems whatsoever (and are a short list of drummers starting with the last name starting with A to use as an example):

Dave_Abbruzzese, Alex Acuña, Tommy_Aldridge, Rick_Allen_(drummer), Carmine_Appice, Vinny_Appice, Kenny_Aronoff, Nick_Augusto

The amount of negative edits and difficulty in being able to adequately update this page for the Wikipedia community due to the Pauciloquence negative targeted editing campaign is extremely concerning and needs to stop.

Pauciloquence, please refrain from editing this page moving forward otherwise formal action will have to be taken. Thank you very much. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.35.194.25 (talk) 13:36, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

I will be continuing to edit this and other pages. Just because you do not like that I am enforcing the policies and guidelines of wikipedia does not me you can tell me to stop editing an article. By all rights I should ask you if you have a conflict of interest with the article subject since you seem to be for leaving in huge sections of unsourced information.

Saying other articles have this or that is no excuse. Each article stands on its own and must follow policy and guidelines. On a BLP article unsourced info maybe removed at anytime. Unreliable sources may also be removed. Best regards! Pauciloquence (talk) 13:43, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Disruptive editing

• From the Wikipedia Disruptive Editing Page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Disruptive_editing

	This page in a nutshell: Disruptive editors may be blocked or banned indefinitely.

Disruptive editing is not always intentional. Editors may be accidentally disruptive because they don't understand how to correctly edit, or because they lack the social skills or competence necessary to work collaboratively. The fact that the disruption occurs in good faith does not change the fact that it is harmful to Wikipedia.

• From the Wikipedia Competence Is Required Page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Competence_is_required

Where we often see big controversies, though, is with editors who are unintentionally and often unknowingly disruptive while trying to help. This is where we sometimes see an unintended side effect of our (generally quite useful) notion of assuming good faith. Many editors have focused so much on this tenet that they have come to believe that good faith is all that is required to be a useful contributor. Sadly, this is not the case at all. Competence is required as well. A mess created in a sincere effort to help is still a mess.

• From the Wikipedia Compared To Good Faith Page

Compared to Good Faith

Assuming that people are trying to help seems trivial—but if someone is unable to help or is sometimes helpful but at other times disruptive, their edits may cause a net loss to the project. The proverbial bull in a china shop might have good intentions, but he's clearly bad for business. We always must value the project as a whole more than we value the contributions of any individual editor.

If an editor has already demonstrated incompetence that causes disruption, no amount of good faith can fix the problem resulting from the editor's lack of competence.

Some common types

Newbie

Further information: WP:Do not bite the newcomers

   Most of us were pretty incompetent at editing Wikipedia when we started. We might not have understood wikicode, we might not have signed our posts, or we may not have fully appreciated exactly which sources are reliable. The great thing about this situation is that it's easily fixable. Help the newbies understand what we do here, and soon they'll be making themselves useful. 

Social

   Some people just can't function well in this particular collaborative environment. We can't change Wikipedia to suit them, so if they're unable to change themselves, they'll need to be shown the door.

   Some behavioral issues and personality traits may be correlated with the inability to collaborate in an environment in which collaboration is essential. The Wikipedia community assesses editors solely on the basis of their contributions and actions within Wikipedia. Blocking an editor who has demonstrated that they cannot participate in Wikipedia is not discrimination on the basis of disability (if one exists), even if that disability contributes to their failure to participate. Wikipedia is not therapy.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.35.194.25 (talk) 13:36, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

DO you have a conflict of interest with the subject of this article? If so, you have to state this. RickinBaltimore (talk) 15:27, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Hello RickInBaltimore, thank you for jumping into the difficulty we are having here. There are no conflicts of interest. The issue is that I am trying to update the information using data found on the internet for the subject's page to match other prominent drummers found on Wikipedia. The previous data on this drummer's page is outdated (from 2011) and there are many more sessions and projects of note to be linked to that are biographically worthwhile. Gigs of note that I was attempting to update, but were removed from the page prematurely, include the subject playing Carnegie Hall and The Winter Olympics in Sochi Russia. The formatting and information was done first in previous edits and was physically putting in the individual references for each of the points, but was simultaneously having large chunks of information removed. The Gear section in particular was a Wiki drummer page mainstay that was removed incorrectly as per other drummer's sites.

It unfortunately appears that this page has been negatively targeted by the new editor Pauciloquence while attempting to do the aforementioned updates. In 2 days time the new editor Pauciloquence has targeted edits of over -12,000 words in the article undoing tons of cleaning up and solidly formatting data and layout. It appears as if the editor in question is waiting for any edits I do and immediately changes or undoes each edit as I go along. Multiple attempts to work together positively with the editor to fix each individual issue either pre or post editing were in vain. Questions and concerns were brought up without much dialogue prior to removal of large chunks of entries. No requests were made by the editor to fix individual issues prior to removal of large groups of biographical information. Disagreements have now been ensuing on the validity of sources and more and more error boxes are appearing at the top of the page. It's very difficult to make positive progress on a page that has been deemed well-sourced for over 5 years that won't have an individual editor allow for the page to be positively updated in 2016. This seems like disruptive behavior by the definitions laid out by the Wiki community especially when dealing with a new editor.

As compared to other well respected drummer pages on Wiki, the Charlie Zeleny page currently has more than 4x the valid and current sources (over 40 references) and should no longer need additional citations for verification (most other drummer sites have 6-14 references on well-sourced pages). Most if not all the sources are reliable and accurate. The tone mimics the same vibe as all the other attached Wikipedia pages of other prominent drummers. Any intricate detail found in the article is also similar to the other prominent drummers found in the list below and is perfect for the target audience of other drummers who want to know the detailed biographical information especially particulars of Gear, Credits and Awards. Attempts for me to undo these error boxes at the top of the article were met with threats of blocking/banning citing the 3 strike rule.

I will absolutely spend the rest of the month updating all of the pertinent information, the references and sources, the formatting and make this page worthy of the other drummers in the Wiki community even if it takes 1,000 credible sources.

But I am putting in a formal request to remove the error banners up top and to put a hold on Pauciloquence from editing this page indefinitely so I can fix and finish the rest of the biographical data and put in each individual adequate source reference. That way I can make positive headway on the entire article instead of spending time arguing over the validity of every single source and having the editor in question remove large chunks of updates as I try to update them. Formatting specifically takes a long time and the Gear section being removed was especially disheartening. My recent responses are in relation to trying to defend the page edits from Pauciloquence's constant undoing and editing as I am going along (seemingly overly gung-ho being a new editor).

For reference, here are drummer pages that all have less sources currently than the Charlie Zeleny page of drummers who are associated with the subject on his projects (there are many more to this list of associated drummers if needed):

Terry_Bozzio, Bobby_Jarzombek, Derek_Roddy, Chris_Adler, Marco_Minnemann, Mike_Portnoy

Here are other drummer pages with less sources than the current Charlie Zeleny page and similar sources that are being disputed. These pages are existing without any problems whatsoever (and is also a short list of drummers starting with the last name starting with A to use as an example, there are at least another 200 valid drum pages I can reference also):

Dave_Abbruzzese, Alex Acuña, Tommy_Aldridge, Rick_Allen_(drummer), Carmine_Appice, Vinny_Appice, Kenny_Aronoff, Nick_Augusto

Just trying to update this page to be equal to the rest of the prominent drummers in the Wiki community. If you have any other ideas or suggestions on how to lay out this page to make it as good as any of the specific linked drummers' pages, please let me know. Also, feel free to give me examples to follow. I want to make this as comprehensive and complete update as possible for the page to be as good as other prominent drummers on Wikipedia for 2017 and beyond. Thank you very much RickInBaltimore. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.35.194.25 (talk) 16:30, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Incorrect Copyright Claim - Charlie Zeleny Wikipedia Page

Hey there Bythebooklibrary, the 4 books referenced from links on Amazon.com mention the subject Charlie Zeleny and actually public domain information referenced in the original Wikipedia page article that has been up for over 5 years on the subject Charlie Zeleny. It is common knowledge that the subject is in fact a pro drummer, music director, producer and solo artist. The Charlie Zeleny Wikipedia page has been up for over 5 years (last major update 2011 prior to 2016) and looks like it was actually referenced in the Encyclopedia of Bohemian and Czech-American Biography, Volume 1 by Miloslav Rechcigl Jr. which was released just recently on November 10th, 2016.

Here are multiple sources stating that Charlie Zeleny is an American drummer, music director, producer and solo artist:

• http://www.paiste.com/e/endorser_det.php?page=bio&endorserid=4606
• http://www.futurecomposer.com/2010/12/01/musician-profile-charlie-zeleny/
• https://www.discogs.com/artist/690830-Charlie-Zeleny
• http://www.protectionracket.com/artists/item/charlie-zeleny
• http://pearldrum.com/artists/drumset-artists/charlie-zeleny

Please remove the incorrect copyright claim when you get a chance. Also, please let me know if I need to change the reference to Amazon's books in any way to avoid this issue in the future.

Most of the information in the article is common knowledge sourced from over 62 reference sources so far. Just trying to update this particular article with all the correct sources referenced (last major update appeared to be in 2011). Thank you very much. 100.35.194.25 (talk) 14:53, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

• Copyright clerk here. This is a case of backwards copyvio. The book that was allegedly copied, Encyclopedia of Bohemian and Czech-American Biography was self-published in November 2016. That book quite clearly copied verbatim from the lead paragraph of the Wikipedia article. I suspect many of the other entries in that "encyclopedia" are likewise plagiarised from Wikipedia. Note that the text in question has been on Wikipedia in that form since at least August 2012 as shown here. Another website (vicsdrumshop.com) had also plagiarised the Wikipedia text for their page on a drum clinic led by Zeleny in February 2013, again many months after it appeared on Wikipedia. See their ads here and here. I am going to remove the copyvio template. I have no comment about the other issues raised here concerning the referencing and style of writing. Voceditenore (talk) 16:24, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Please don't, Voceditenore! It's clear from this comparison that the page has been a copyvio since the day it was created. This seems to show that at least some of that copyvio is still present in the page. I think it needs to be re-written from scratch (unless you can see any other way of dealing with this?). I agree of course about the backwards copy – I'd come to the same conclusion, just not quite so quickly. Regards, Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 16:43, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Actually, Justlettersandnumbers, the first comparison shows very little overlap with charliezeleny.com, at most identical fragments of three sentences. The material still left is absolutely minimal. There's no need to rewrite this from scratch. As it is, both comparisons on the Copyvio Detector with charliezeleny.com state "violation unlikely". But my "manual" comparison reaches the same conclusion. Voceditenore (talk) 17:04, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

I've now re-written the two remaining closely paraphrased sentences [3]. Voceditenore (talk) 17:29, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your analysis. Another copyright issue I have a question about is the multitude of pictures or images contained in the article. If you click them it say they were uploaded by an editor named DrumDocZ which coincidentally is the account name on YouTube where that editor stated it was the official website for the drummer. The text says copyright by Charlie Zeleny. How do you look up to see if the owner really gave permission for the photos to be used. I don't know where to look that up. Can someone check that please? And also, if several of the sections used Wikipedia to write their pages, then this sites can't be used as references on the can they or can't they? Really the best thing may be to junk this article and start fresh. Opinions? Bythebooklibrary (talk) 17:37, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

In light of the above, neither Encyclopedia of Bohemian and Czech-American Biography nor the biography on vicsdrumshop.com should be used as references, given that they copied from Wikipedia and are therefore circular. I would suggest going very carefully through the remaining references. Some of these are quite superfluous. Read Wikipedia:Citation overkill. It has good advice. And that whole In press section needs to go. If he's covered in books in articles, then they should be used as references. There's no need to junk the article, just trim in way back where necessary and build it it back up. I'll have look at the images. Voceditenore (talk) 17:48, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Bythebooklibrary, re the photos see my comments below in the section Image problems. Voceditenore (talk) 18:15, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for dealing with this in a very comprehensive and complete way Voceditenore. This page has been a definite case of backwards copyvio with multiple instances but the page is also referencing a lot of public domain common knowledge about the subject. There are currently 63 source references in the article with many more to be added which is absolutely overkill. But the situation that was ensuing prior to this has been the multiple error boxes at the top of the article added due to lack of references and citations. So additional references and sources were added to fix the issue.

The Harvard Guide To Using Sources states that information and facts are common knowledge if listed in 3 sources and most if not all of this information is found in over 5 sources online. If the phrasing of the Page needs to be updated, that is a very simple fix.

The page is in the process of the completion of all the sources and references and will go back and continue to update the language to be less flowery. Will also make sure that any and all Wikipedia page entries on the subject are more concise and presented in a profession and clean layout manner. It would be much appreciated to work together on editing the current page to make sure that this page looks similar to other prominent drummers that have similar Wikipedia pages such as these:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Abbruzzese

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Acu%C3%B1a

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Aldridge

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Allen_%28drummer%29

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmine_Appice

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinny_Appice

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenny_Aronoff

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Augusto

Thank you very much. 100.35.194.25 (talk) 17:57, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

And regarding the pictures, it appears as if the subject works with a variety of photographers and web designers across his social media and website platforms. Take a look at the main webpage:

• http://www.charliezeleny.com/

Looks like many of these photos are linked directly on the back end of his website and are also incorporated into the actual design of many of his websites and social network sites. I'd imagine that the subject likely hired these photographers and web designers to do these photos and designs so the owner of the copyrights would be the subject. 100.35.194.25 (talk) 18:04, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Image problems

• Re the photos, several of them are clearly problematic. For example File:Charlie Zeleny Birthday Concert 2011.jpg is not by Charlie Zeleny. The image's metadata states "Copyright 2011 Bryan Pace - All Rights Reserved". Some of the remaining photos are hosted on charliezeleny.com but that site is also marked "all rights reserved". They all appear on his official photostream at Flickr here which is linked from his website and they all seem to marked "all rights reserved" there as well. The uploader User:DrumDocZ will have to provide written confirmation via OTRS that he is Charlie Zeleny, owns the copyright, and is releasing them under CC-By-SA or he needs to change the licensing on Flickr to that. Otherwise, they need to be deleted. A bit of a mess. Voceditenore (talk) 18:15, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Good catch. Let me see what information can be found about that and try to track down the drumdocz user to deal with the situation. Thanks Voceditenore 100.35.194.25 (talk) 19:04, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

If you do track down User:DrumDocZ who is very obviously someone closely affiliated to Zeleny, point him to the instructions at Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials. If they are not followed to the letter, the images will not be kept. Note that all the images for the article are now being discussed for deletion here. Voceditenore (talk) 15:33, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Problematic References

I have removed a couple of references that were unreliable and a few that did not even mention the article subject. One particularly erroneous reference was to the urbandictionary.com The really odd thing is that the article subject's name has been added into the syntax of the reference as part of the title even when his name is not part of the title. The Zeleny name was found to be added to the title on several of the references. Is this some kind of SEO trick or something? It certainly does not seem proper. I am going to comb the history to see which editor added the subject's name falsely into the article titles. Bythebooklibrary (talk) 21:20, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Hey Bythebooklibrary, I added the couple recent aforementioned references and was just trying to be complete and copy the format on the previous references with full titles and all that. A previous editor was complaining that some of the recently added references were incomplete so wanted to provide as much information and detail as possible and tried to keep the same exact text structure on the valid source references that passed inspection. So I believe what you are seeing on some of the entries is a cut and paste of code situation.

If the subject isn't mentioned in those specific articles I do know there are articles where the subject is mentioned on these points. There's a lot of websites out there on the subject plus a bunch of social media sites that confirm the information plus live audio and video interviews available also. But I do know that social media sites are not valid sources, so wanted to track down the correct information on valid sites. SEO doesn't apply to Wikipedia anymore so that seems to be a moot point anyway. But I did read that UrbanDictionary is used as a valid source (as is Wikipedia) in court cases as for evidence, so put that one in there as the source for one reference since it was the most handy at the time. Totally understood that it might be frowned upon as a valid source.

Still tracking down picture information. Probably won't be able to work that out until next week. But there are variety of newer images that appear to be cleared on the subject's site that are more recent and show his updated Gear and gigs. I'll look through all the issues of everything and also keep an eye on the drumdocz profile for answers about the current pics.

I'll continue to also go through all the points made in this discussion, check over the references with a fine tooth comb also, update the rest of the language and keep tweaking the site until it works great for Wikipedia like it has for 5 years prior. Once this drummer is complete, there's a variety of other high profile drummers Wikipedia pages that need a lot of attention also. It was hard to find completely sourced and valid comparable entries. Seems to be an under-served part of the Wikipedia musician and music community. Thanks for the help Bythebooklibrary. 100.35.194.25 (talk) 10:05, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Major trimming and copyediting

I have made extensive changes to this article:

(1) Copyedited it to remove quite blatant puffery

(2) Removal of exceptional but unverified claims, e.g. "Zeleny was the founder and head of Drew's jazz music department for the full three years of his higher education and produced, directed and music directed his own production of the musical Godspell."

(3) Removal of YouTube videos as references for him having performed with a variety of people—completely inappropriate as references and verify nothing.

(4) Formatted one reference with a fake title replacing it with the real title, consolidated two references to the same page that had been given two different titles, etc. Those practices are very misleading.

(5) Removed the entire In performance section, an unreferenced and self-serving "laundry list". Even if it had been referenced to independent sources, that level of detail is appropriate for his web site, not an encylopedia article

(6) Drastically trimmed Current musical projects especially the unverified name dropping laundry list and unverified claims and renamed it Later musical projects ("Current" and other relative time constructs are meaningless and to be avoided. See MOS:RELTIME. In addition, all the projects listed date from 2011, i.e., five years ago.)

There is still more work to do, e.g. checking the remaining references for accurate titles, removing utterly trivial ones which the recordings like the page on the Walmart website selling it. Find a review. Commercial sales pages are worthless and should never be used as "references". Note also that virtually every major claim made about his career is referenced to sources written by him or interviews in which he makes the claims. This is not ideal, and such sources can never be used as the sole verification of exceptional claims. I have removed the tags for unencyclopedic tone and overly intricate detail, as these issues have now been addressed. However, I have left the tags relating to sourcing issues as these are still outstanding problems.

Voceditenore (talk) 15:16, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Hey Voceditenore, thanks for helping on the editing for the subject's page. Couple quick questions and concerns on the article:

• 1) Makes total sense and was trying to go through and do the same
• 2) That particular claim and another couple claims I saw online but still have to find better sources for the page
• 3) YouTube videos showing the subject playing with the said parties should be okay as a source, no? That would be a primary source and show that he has actually performed with the artists and musicians claimed. Let me know your thoughts on the matter. I've seen many other pages successfully list YouTube as a source also. This seems to be just as valid as an actual website and I've seen YouTube claimed as a valid source for court cases even.
• 4) That was probably my fault over here. I was having trouble with repeating references so was copying and pasting the full code everywhere. Is there an easy way to code the page to use a reference already given? Trying to do <ref>title<ref/> didn't seem to work.
• 5) I do think that there are things of note that need to be incorporated that have been removed from that section obviously with supported reference/soured claims. But it might be better to implement these facts throughout the article instead of putting it in an In Performance section.
• 6) Those projects are definitely not current. There are many more projects that are more recent and significant to speak about with the subject including the band Whiplash he has toured with plus many other things.

Thanks for helping out on this page Voceditenore. 100.35.194.25 (talk) 19:38, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Gear lists

Most prominent drummers especially known for their solo work have complete gear lists on Wikipedia and is a very helpful service to the drummer community and Wikipedia community on a whole. Drummers especially with signature gear such as the custom snare Charlie Zeleny has have exactly formatted gear lists. The subject's page should be laid out and fit into the Wiki community in a similar way and should be allowed. These are pages that are well sourced and credited and are in similar length, format and style as the subject's page.

Here's a short list of drummer pages in the Wikipedia community that list similar complete lists of gear:

Chris_Adler, Vinnie_Paul, Mark_Zonder, Adrian_Young, Tim_Yeung, Ronnie_Vannucci_Jr., Lars_Ulrich, Jon_Theodore, Zak_Starkey, Questlove, Scott_Rockenfield, Derek_Roddy, Morgan_Rose, Tony_Royster_Jr., Ilan_Rubin, Phil_Rudd, Chris_Pennie, Thomas_Pridgen, Abe_Laboriel_Jr., Shannon_Larkin, Ray_Luzier, Shannon_Lucas, Jojo_Mayer, Larry_Mullen_Jr., Steve_Jordan_(musician) George_Kollias (drummer), Tomas_Haake, Will_Hunt, Zbigniew Robert Promiński, Adrian_Erlandsson, Zac_Farro, Jon_Fishman, Carter_Beauford, Virgil_Donati, John_Dolmayan, Brann_Dailor, Stewart_Copeland, Billy_Cobham, Damon_Che, Terry_Bozzio

Thank you very much. 100.35.194.25 (talk) 12:48, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

Conflict of interest

To contributing editor at ip 100.35.194.25:

Do you have any sort of conflict of interest regarding the article subject Charlie Zeleny? Are you perhaps a friend or a member of his family? Or are you actually him? If so, this needs to be disclosed so as to protect the neutral tone of the article. You seem to be going backward by trying to re-add lots of the intricate detail and puffery that has been removed by a set of editors. Please answer, and or declare if you have a conflict of interest here. Thank you. Pauciloquence (talk) 12:19, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

This was spoken about earlier on the Talk page. There is no conflict of interest regarding the subject Charlie Zeleny. The drummer community on a whole seems to be under-serviced with many prominent and famous drummers and musicians that have incomplete, under-sourced pages that have not been fixed or updated for many years. This is one of the drummers on the list that needs to be cleaned up and fixed significantly and is being fixed with a variety of editors. These editors includ Bythebooklibrary and Voceditenore who are not just massively editing the article but bringing up points on the talk page and having us all go back and forth on as a community to fix this page.

There are many more drummer and musician pages that we must all tackle after this to have the Wikipedia drummer community hold more weight. Thank you very much. 100.35.194.25 (talk) 12:54, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

100.35.194.25, I'm going to be much more specific here.

Do you have any affiliation whatsoever with Charles Zeleny, either personal or professional?

Please answer this specific question. If your answer is "yes", then you have an inherent conflict of interest and must follow the guidelines at WP:Conflict of interest (and at WP:Autobiography, if applicable). If your answer is "no" and you continue to maintain that you are simply part of the "Wikipedia drummer community", then you need to stop editing like a typical editor with a conflict of interest. You have edited no other article except this one. You repeatedly attempt to add promotional material to it as well as attempting to turn this encyclopedia article into an extension of Zeleny's website. I will elaborate on that further in a moment. Voceditenore (talk) 07:56, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

In September 2011, Zeleny's official website looked like this and had its own bio. The following month, it appeared to undergo a restructuring and consisted solely of this. In December 2011, User:DrumDocZ (the same name used by Zeleny for his YouTube channel [4]) began editing this article with quite blatantly promotional language and adding an inappropriate level of detail which belongs on the subject's website, not an encyclopedia article, e.g. [5]. He also added multiple copyright images which are available on Zeleny's Flickr photostream. By February 2012 (2 months later), the new version of Zeleny's website had emerged and looked like this. The site remains like that today. Note that when you click on the "CharlieZ" link in the homepage menu bar, it now takes you directly to the Wikipedia page. Ditto the link "CLICK HERE TO READ MORE" at the bottom of the home page. In my experience, that kind of arrangement, has often been a feature of articles with extensive editing by editors with a major conflict of interest. Voceditenore (talk) 09:35, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

Manually Reverting The Page

The removed Gear section is being reverted to the full list of gear on the subject similar to most other drummer Wikipedia pages in the community.

In addition to that rollback, the phrasing of the first paragraph will be changed back to the original form to be written in a unique way as compared to the subject's website and elsewhere on the internet to avoid plagiarism. Thank you very much.

Second Rollback of changes

Same issues apply above. Making formal request for Block and Ban of Pauciloquence.

All other editors have been extremely helpful in updating this page in constructive, comprehensive and complete ways. 100.35.194.25 (talk) 13:19, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

The listing of all the drum equipment is too much intricate detail and actually a bit promotional. What other wikipedia pages say is not relevant here at this article.

The words prominent and others are weasel words and will stay removed at this article. If you continue to re add them I will ask an administrator to counsel on the matter. There is no plagiarism, that is just something you are saying. Show me where removing weasel words plagiarizes from anywhere. Pauciloquence (talk) 13:21, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

I agree with P. The article was just getting trimmed down to size and you go back adding back multiple items that were already removed. That is not the way to go. We can all have a civil discussion here and decide the right way to go. Both of you should stop changing those parts until more input from other editors occurs here at the talk page. IP 100 please tone those headers down and remove the bolding since there is no need for it. Bythebooklibrary (talk) 13:37, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

Just reported Pauciloquence for Vandalism, Disruptive Behavior and Harrassment and am requesting formal Block and Ban. All bold entries were for the record of the three revert rule in relation to this issue and all other issues with Pauciloquence. Will refrain from bold headings moving forward most definitely.

Hey Bythebooklibrary, thank you for all the work you and the other editors who have been positively changing the article have done recently. The situation is that there are literally hundreds of prominent drummer Wiki sites that fully list each drummer's gear (please see references above on this Talk page) and I know it is a mainstay in the drummer wiki community from the shares and connections I've seen on major sites like ModernDrummer.com, Drummerworld.com and more. It's not promotional, it's showing exactly what instruments each drummer plays and are listed as informative facts. Just like you would mention that a classical violinist plays a certain make and model Stradivarius violin, these pages are showing exactly what instruments are in the collection of drums and cymbals of each drummer on these pages. Very helpful to know for everyone in the Wiki community to know most definitely. Thank you very much. 100.35.194.25 (talk) 13:50, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

I really hate to say it but you are wrong about this ip100. P has not committed any vandalism or harassment. If anything it looks like you are harassing P for being new here. Everyone was new once. And your reasoning about other drummer articles is really not the issue. It looks like you are becoming really stressed by all of this. We have nothing but time because there is no deadline on wikopedia. You really should step back, take a moment and read all the words you have posted here. You should really take a deep breath or have a cup of tea! Bythebooklibrary (talk) 14:12, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the speedy response Bythebooklibrary. I am curious what the other editors think about this situation for sure which is why I made the formal request. But I am also interested in starting a dialogue on about the Gear section to add that information back as per the other pages. And if there appears to be any problems happening in this situation regarding Pacilouquece, it's due to trying to work collaboratively over a period many days back and forth as shown above, but still having tens of thousands of words of edits and formatting deleted and undone without any discussion on this page. Seems to be against the Wiki policy of Disruptive Editing and doesn't actually help the page overall. Perhaps it is due to the newness of the editor joining Wikipedia. But it's been refreshing to have you and the other editors positively working on this page together to make the editing process so much more smooth and helpful. We've had a very positive dialogue and have made so much more headway than having to go back and forth on microchanges derailing any forward momentum on the article. No rush on my end at all over here either, it will take as long as it takes to do a great article together for sure. This whole collaborative encyclopedia community is fascinating to be a part of. But I definitely don't take lightly to individuals negatively targeting a page or a user in what is supposed to be a positive working community is all. Let me know what you think of the Gear section when you get a chance though. It appears on all the drummers in the list above and am trying to model the edits of this page after the other prominent drummer articles. Thank you very much. 100.35.194.25 (talk) 14:44, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

And to further expound upon comparison to other drummer wiki pages: I see sections of Wikipedia as flowing together in certain communities. Meaning, when I look at a business person's page, I expect to see similar info laid out in a similar fashion to all other business people on wiki. The same goes for politicians, companies and all sorts of other pages. For instance, it was interesting to see the transition of the Donald Trump page from a business person's page to a politician, and now interestingly enough, to the new President of the USA. I think there is something powerful in a community that has pages that mimic each other for the quick and easy gaining of information for all readers. It also lends a certain validity in the overall presentation. In fact, if we can mimic some of the most well laid out drummer sites, we can all go back and use this page as a template to update the rest. 100.35.194.25 (talk) 14:57, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

Talk page behaviour

I have renamed to neutral wording several very inappropriate topic headings on this page, e.g. [6], [7]. Per Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines:

• Don't address other users in a heading
• Never use headings to attack other users

User:100.35.194.25, please refrain from using such inappropriate headings again. Please read all the guidelines at the page carefully, and follow them scrupulously going forward.

I have also formatted the lengthy lists of other WP articles which you have repeatedly added. Use the correct linking protocol for internal links, e.g. Terry Bozzio using this markup: [[Terry Bozzio]], not bare urls like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Bozzio.

Having said that, repeating lengthy lists of articles which may or may not have the same problems as this one, is pointless and becoming disruptive. There are many, many sub-standard articles on Wikipedia, the fact that another article is substandard, contains the same kind of potentially inappropriate material as this one, or uses poor references, is never a valid argument for doing the same in this one. Charlie Zeleny is the article under discussion—no others. Decisions about its content are made by a consensus of editors via discussion on this talk page and they must be based on the relevant policies and guidelines—nothing else. Voceditenore (talk) 07:27, 18 December 2016 (UTC)