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September 6

Being Annoyed

While we're on the topic of errors... Why is annoyed capitalized in the subject title when the WP:MOS clearly states headers shouldn't have any non-noun words after the first one capitalized unless book/film/song titles are involved? =) Mgm|^(talk) 11:45, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

One of the above questions about your/you're welcome made me remember something that happens quite often: if there is a grammatical error somewhere in public, it really bugs me. A lot. One specific instance is when a sign said said, "please fill out YOURE papers and sit until YOUR ready" There wasn't any apostrophe in that sentence. It bugged me so much, I took out a sharpie and changed it, and I was asked to leave. I did feel better afterwards, though. What's wrong with me. Some kind of OCD or something? schyler 02:39, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Not at all. I regularly amend restaurant menus, shop signs etc that perpetrate atrocities like this. Lynne Truss, in her wonderful book "Eats, Shoots and Leaves", advocates that people do exactly this. Some sins are simply unforgiveable and they deserve whatever correction they get. Apostrophe power forever! JackofOz 03:47, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

The checkout lane sign that says "10 items or less" is a common offender, which should properly say "10 items, or fewer". StuRat 03:56, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd say that you're being overly proper. "10 items or less" is short for "10 items or less than 10 items." Proper spelling is one thing, but I will not stand idly by and watch a prescriptivist correct a signmaker on word usage. AEuSoes1 05:08, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Um, no - "less than 10 items" is incorrect. StuRat is right. As for the first post in this thread, it is of course not just the lack of apostrophes in the sentence that is wrong, but the fact that 'your' and 'you're' are the wrong way around. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 05:24, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

"10 kilograms or less" would be correct.~ Edison

• Correct. For integers, the word is "fewer" ("fewer coffee beans"), while for real numbers, the word is "less" ("less coffee"). This is quite an oddity in English, especially considering that "more" works for both integers and real numbers. StuRat 06:17, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

In Belgium they've got maximum speed signs that read '60 km'. People shortening units to other units is irritating enough, but to do that on an official sign ... DirkvdM 06:31, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

StuRat, you said in answer to an earlier question today that "by definition, whichever spelling is most often used is the correct spelling (or, at least, one correct spelling)." I took you to mean that, with spelling, two wrongs don't make a right, but a million wrongs eventually do. Applying that same argument to grammar, if most supermarkets use the "10 items or less" words, that common usage would by definition make it correct. But now, you’re saying it's wrong, because of an oddity with the English language which we must respect. Why do you support that oddity, when you refuse to support other oddities, eg. you insist on spelling both the possessive "its" and the abbreviation "it's" with an apostrophe, your argument being that you're supported by logic, which apparently takes precedence over "correctness". Can you explain why it's ok to make up your own logic-based rules about some things, but remind others of the commonly agreed rules about other things even when they're not very logical? JackofOz 06:52, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

If I believed that they knew the proper word was "fewer", yet choose to use the word "less", in an intentional effort to change this odd grammatical practice, then I would have some sympathy for the attempt. However, I'm quite sure they're just morons who don't know the current grammar rules, and that annoys me. To summarize: "rebellion I like, ignorance I hate". StuRat 11:41, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, but people who use 'your' for 'you're' do so out of ignorance. Your position is untenable. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 11:53, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

How so, I don't support the confusion of "less" with "fewer", out of ignorance, and neither do I support the confusion of "your" and "you're", out of ignorance. In the case of "your" and "you're", I don't even see any logical argument that could be made for swapping the two. StuRat 12:10, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

(after edit conflict) Spot on, Richardrj.

Stu, doesn't that undermine your "By definition, whichever spelling is most often used is the correct spelling (or, at least, one correct spelling)" comment. "You're" is slowly being morphed into "your", not out of anything but pure ignorance. You seem to think that's fine. What's different about "fewer" vs. "less"? Why does ignorance of the rules in one circumstance attract your support, but in another, attract not only your opposition but your judgment of the individuals involved, whom you label "morons"? Why do you reserve your invective for the victims of ignorance rather than for the hopeless education system they had to endure? JackofOz 11:56, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that's fine. My comments on the use of Google hits have been misinterpreted. See the section where I first made the comment on Google hits for a clarification. StuRat 12:36, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

This thread is dangerously close to violating WP:CIVIL. Please be careful and try to lower the temperature here. - Stephanie Daugherty (Triona) - Talk - Comment - 11:59, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

It is ? Nobody has even questioned my parent's marital status at the time of my birth yet, or suggested that I perform a physically impossible sex act upon myself. StuRat 12:10, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

David Crystal is promoting his new book which calls Truss's approach elitist and pedantic; but then he did say to Truss punctuation books don't sell. Im with David on this and find your annoyance annoying. MeltBanana 13:17, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I too find it terribly annoying when people are annoyed with other people. --Lambiam^Talk 22:43, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I have a lot of respect for Prof Crystal, however his prediction proved quite false. "Eats, Shoots and Leaves" was a best-seller and is still selling well. It was anti-pedantic and most definitely anti-elitist. It was written with great humour and flair, and was aimed at the general reader and not at language specialists. Her main thrust is that the correct use of apostrophes is not rocket science, and there's really very little for people to stuff up if they remember a handful of simple rules. For a language expert to call those who advocate good usage "pedantic", is ill-becoming. JackofOz 20:56, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

finding out a word for similar words

the words would sound the same, but they have a different spelling and meaning. examples: tow/toe, knew/new, blue/blew etc... could someone please inform me of what the word is for this example? Thanks!

That would be a homophone. JackofOz 03:42, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I could add a comment here about Jack's telephone, but I'm far too polite for that. :-) StuRat 03:52, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I take this as a sign of your great personal respect and trust of me, which is perfectly understandable. JackofOz 05:20, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

This is a slightly confusing area. Wiktionary contains an excellent chart explaining the differences between words like homophone, homonym and homograph.

Different Meanings table
.	Same spelling	Different spelling
Same sound	Homonyms Homographs	Homophones (cat) Homonyms
Different sound	Heteronyms (cat) Homonyms Homographs

Hope that helps further. --Dweller 10:51, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

word usgin

using word to a friend, he said it was icorrect but a dictionarry tells us using it is very correct who is being ight? sorr y for english usage! Jasbutal 04:46, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Please restate the word. I have not heard of an English word "usgin." Edison 05:35, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

don't patrozine me. Jasbutal 06:34, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

When you spell "patronize" wrong, it's very hard not to. Otherwise, I would trust the dictionary more than your friend, but I'd like more information about the word you're speaking about. 惑乱 分からん 13:24, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Jasbutal, we don't understand your question. Are you asking about whether the word using is correct English? (It is.) Can you give us a sentence with the word in context, so we can say whether it is correct? Philbert^2.71828 06:55, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I think you can assume your dictionary is correct; and your spelling looks just fine in your other contributions, so hopefully this is only a temporary lapse.--Shantavira 07:01, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Usage of the word "using" is entirely acceptable if you're using it correctly. --Dweller 09:22, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Sometimes dictionaries contain mistakes, but generally I'd trust the dictionary more than my (or your) friend. If you tell us what the word is, we might be able to say more about it. --Lambiam^Talk 10:33, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

use of question mark in compound sentences

Can anyone tell me how to punctuate the following sentence: "Can someone lend me a pencil, because I've lost mine." Should it end with a question mark, because it is interrogative, or a full stop because the last clause is a statement? The Mad Echidna 05:20, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

full stop according to my MLA guide 70.225.173.251 05:29, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

It would be better to say, "Can someone lend me a pencil? I've lost mine." Treating "because I've lost mine" as a statement is a bit dubious, so a full stop would be questionable at the end of the sentence as written. Philbert^2.71828 05:41, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

According to the article (and what I've heard on occasion over the years):

It can also be used mid-sentence to mark a merely interrogative phrase, where it functions similarly to a comma, such as in the single sentence "Where shall we go? and what shall we do?", but this usage is increasingly rare.

...which hints that "Can someone lend me a pencil? because I've lost mine." would be appropriate punctuation. I don't think it needs to be said that this is purely colloquial and would never be acceptable as written prose.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  06:31, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Would this be correct: "Can someone lend me a pencil (because I've lost mine)?" ? This is a double question - about the rephrasing of Echidn's phrase and about the way I wrote the question.

Note that this would never be a problem in real life, though, because punctuation only matters in writing and what would you be writing with then? :) DirkvdM 06:39, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Freshgavin's this is purely colloquial and would never be acceptable as written prose. Maybe not in some contexts, but for a play or a film something like this could very well turn up. Most characters in movies don't speak like English professors, but like real people. How would they punctuate it in the script? JackofOz 07:03, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

However they like, because most actors aren't idiots. :) What about reported speech, as in a novel? "Can someone lend me a pencil? I've lost mine." is an elegant solution.... but it doesn't answer my fellow madman's question, which is specifically about how to punctuate a single sentence in its compound form. I would have thought that the answer was "Can someone lend me a pencil, because I've lost mine?" But I could be completely wrong. However, I'm quite sure (?) that using a question mark mid-sentence is absolutely wrong. Morally. TheMadBaron 12:06, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

This type of error, where a person adds an afterthought to a complete sentence, while not grammatically correct, is quite common. I suggest writing it as "Can someone lend me a pencil ? ... because I've lost mine" to emphasize the afterthought nature of the addition. StuRat 13:00, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Question marks were formerly acceptable in the middle of a sentence, and still may be, in rare cases. For example "Do you have any ham ? beef ? chicken ?". It would be better to write this as "Do you have any ham, beef, or chicken ?", but this form doesn't reflect that the items are being asked about individually, rather than collectively. An answer to the first question might be "Yes, yes, and no" while the answer to the second question would just be "Yes". StuRat 13:00, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I must say that was a very thickly masked computer science lecture StuRat, but oh well. When I said "written prose", I should have said "narrative or formal prose" or something like that. Not really sure what I should call the collective bodies of work that are not intended to be vocalized.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  03:11, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

A "computer lecture" ? It must be so thickly masked that I can't even see it myself. :-) StuRat 05:41, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Not sure what you're looking at, but I can see the point you were trying to make quite clearly!

booelan answerYesNoQuestion (English rawQuestion)
{
  boolean collectiveQuestion(rawQuestion);
  English isolateStatment(rawQuestion);
  int optionList(makeList(rawQuestion, statment));
  if collectiveQuestion()
  {
    while (optionList.questionsRemain()) {questionEvaluate(optionList.nextOption());}
    result questionEvaluate.resultAND();
  } else
  {
    while (optionList.questionsRemain()) {if (!optionList.questionEvaluate(optionList.nextOption())) result FALSE;}
    result TRUE;
  }
}

That actually not exactly what you said. It's too much trouble for me to make it able to give an array of boolean results - -;;.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  09:13, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, I do like my Boolean logic. There's even a Biblical quote that goes something like this:

"Let your yes mean only yes and your no mean only 
 no, for all else is the work of the devil."

StuRat 05:26, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Still confused about French consonant followed by vowel

Hello,

I have made a topic about this earlier (which I couldn't find anymore, which is weird) but I still don't get it. (Mostly due to having learnt this language from books)

1.Ils ont un ami.

2.Ils sont amoureux.

3.On travaille.

4.En travaillant...

5.Ils aident un ami.

6.J'étais amoureux.

7.Il était amoureux.

8.Ca plaît aux jeux.

9.Je finis un devoir.

Do you have to pronounce those consonants in bold?

I am using this site to learn more, but I don't know whether or not I can trust it at all times : [1]

If there is any good place on the internet, or an article, or whatever, that addresses this issue so I can get over with it once and for all I will be very happy. Thanks,Evilbu 11:29, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

The answers can be found in Liaison (linguistics). I do remember the question being asked and this answer being given before, relatively recently, but, oddly, there was no Reference-desk page in the "What links here" for Liaison. --Lambiam^Talk 11:55, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

You certainly wouldn't pronounce the 'n' in your third and fourth examples, nor the 't' in the fifth. Most of the others, I would be tempted to pronounce, but I might be wrong. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 11:56, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I seem to remember there being a difference in the pronunciation of the 't's in 1 and 2, but I can't remember which is which. Skittle 12:42, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Isn't there a difference between 6 and 7?Evilbu 13:27, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that such verb endings are ordinarily liasoned except in inverted questions, where the "t" has become a sort of independent question transition element (e.g. Y a-t-il? etc. etc.). AnonMoos 14:33, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

In On travaille and En travaillant, there is no liaison because the second word does not start with a vowel. Both on and en are pronounced as a single nasalized vowel here. Although the n is not sounded as a consonant, its influence is heard. --Lambiam^Talk 12:01, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Normaly there are strict rules which state when you can or not pronunce a liaison. But don't worry, it is so complex that except purists nobody know them, so it will depend on each person. Spontaneously here's how i would pronouce thoses sentences. The sign - show when I would pronunce the liaison

1.Ils - ont (none here) un - ami, but I would say "ils sont - amis"

2.Ils sont - amoureux.

3.On travaille.

4.En travaillant...

5.Ils - aident un - ami.

6.J'étais - amoureux.

7.Il était - amoureux.

8.Ca plaît aux jeux. (this sentence doesn't mean anything ?)

Ça plaît aux yeux? --Lambiam^Talk 15:29, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

It is still a strange sentence. You will say "pour le plaisir des - yeux" ( for instance in front of a nice painting), "cela fait mal aux - yeux" (that hurts my eyes, for eg the sun), "Ca plaît aux gens" (after "plaît" no liaison)

9.Je finis un devoir.

The pronunciation of the s liaison is always "z" ils -z- ont un -n- ami

I'm very grateful for all the help everyone gave me. But that article Liaison (linguistics) doesn't seem to put "J'étais un chien" or "J'avais un chien" in either the obligatory, optional or forbidden category. Am I misunderstanding the article or is it incomplete?Evilbu 16:51, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I would add those examples it in the optional category. Both sound correct to my ears and it will depend on each person. As I wrote, i have heard there should normaly be strict rules. But i don't know them (and i'm french) and I wonder if there any french who know these rules or perharps members of the "Academie française".

[2] says I should say the t in "Il était un ami" but not the s in "J'étais un ami." Is this site untrusthworthy according to you? (Which is possible, it is just a bot.) Anyway, I'm afraid I can do no more than asking questions about that article, I wouldn't dream of touching it, such a thing must be left to native speakers I'm afraid... Evilbu 19:05, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Have you looked at the French wikipedia article? It is a featured article so presumably is reliable. Jameswilson 23:39, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I have found french.about.com to be very interesting. [3] says that after verbs is optional e.g. in the case of "Elle prend un livre". It notes that this is "very high register", which does not mean (as I first thought) in a high pitched voice, but it has a particular connotation of "formal", "educated", "snobbish" or "pretentious" according to audience (as I understand it). Also, something useful I learned: think of the sound of the liaison as moving to the next syllable. "Ils ont" -> il zont helps understand the sound pattern, though they run together. Notinasnaid 07:43, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Aha! The original question is here: Wikipedia:Reference_desk_archive/Language/2006_July_26#Confused about consonants at the end of French words. Notinasnaid 07:51, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

word meaning

i want to ask about the linguists ideas for 'directing' and maintaining' words. i got difficulties for my thesis. please send me the meaning of that words. thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.124.209.20 (talk • contribs)

It is not clear to me what you are asking. Is it that you want to know the meaning of the words "directing" and "maintaining"? They are derived forms of the verbs "to direct" and "to maintain". For such "-ing" forms, see Gerund and Participle. For the meaning of the verbs, try for example http://dictionary.reference.com/. You can also use Google to see how the words are used in context. --Lambiam^Talk 13:23, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

It seems you have a question about some particular usage of words, but we'd need some clarification and explanation to understand what you're talking about... 惑乱 分からん 13:27, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

He probably means language planning... AnonMoos 14:27, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

differeces between "laugh" and "laughter"

220.20.35.13 13:12, 6 September 2006 (UTC)What are the differences between "laugh" and "laughter"?

I know laughter is a noun, but laugh is also used as a noun.

Is it OK to say "Laughter is good for your health"?

If this is OK, how about "Laugh is good for your health"?

Thanks in advance,

taked4700

'Laughter' is more abstract as a noun in general.

'Laughter is good for your health' is correct, 'laugh..' is not.

'A laugh is...' would be grammatically (sp?) correct, but isn't an expression. Rentwa 13:16, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I think "laughter" could be used as a mass noun, while "laugh" has to be marked either in singular or plural. ("one laugh", "a laugh") 惑乱 分からん 13:28, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. "This one gave me a good laugh!" is quite idiomatic. "Laughter" is wrong here. You could say that "laugh" is a countable noun, whereas "laughter" is a mass noun. A further difference is that "laugh" can also be used to refer to the object of derision. --Lambiam^Talk 13:33, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Also, "laughing is good for your health" is fine, and in fact might be preferable to "laughter", especially in spoken English. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 13:50, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

In general, I'd never use "laugh" as a noun without "a" in front of it: "A laugh a day keeps the doctor away." User:Zoe|(talk) 18:44, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

impression of a non-native speaker: laughter is something you hear. you don't say "I hear his laugh".--K.C. Tang 09:08, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

But you could contrive a scenario: "I'm sure Bill is not far away. I can hear his laugh". JackofOz 11:43, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with K.C. though, that "laughter" is more "animate" than "laugh", and personally I wouldn't say "I can hear his laugh" unless he had some sort of strange way of laughing that I couldn't get out of my head.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  03:02, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Exactly what I had in mind with my contrived scenario, although I failed to fully explain it. JackofOz 07:57, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

"At the coal face"

What does this phrase mean?

It means close to the centre of the action, as opposed to being on the outside. Someone who is "at the coal face" of an activity is personally involved in doing that activity. It is derived from coal mining. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 14:20, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

My favourite example was a doctors' representative who said "Whatever the Department of Health may say, those of us who work at the coal face know that there is still a problem with the provision of post-operative cancer care." Jameswilson 23:46, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

A more common expression meaning the same thing, but using a military analogy, would be "on the front lines". StuRat 00:26, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

At the 'sharp end' would be good for the medical profession. 8-) Sharp end of what tho?--Light current 05:54, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

crossword help

roman general who fought the volsci(10)

Coriolanus. --Lambiam^Talk 15:07, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

one who doesnt belong (or is'nt fancied)(8)

outsider. --Lambiam^Talk 15:08, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

If they aren't fancied to win something, then maybe underdog... -- the GREAT Gavini 15:24, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

last part of race (course)(4-7) home stretch --Richardrj ^{talk email} 15:09, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

biscuit-banger-brilliant one (7) cracker --Richardrj ^{talk email} 15:09, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

moving target (4-6) clay pigeon --Richardrj ^{talk email} 15:19, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

small bit (of comfort)(5) crumb --Richardrj ^{talk email} 15:10, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

burns county (8) Ayrshire --Richardrj ^{talk email} 15:12, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

say out and out (5) state? --Richardrj ^{talk email} 15:12, 6 September 2006 (UTC)it cant be state (v_t_r)Mightright 15:26, 6 September 2006 (UTC) utter - that 'v' must be wrong. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 15:35, 6 September 2006 (UTC)yes u are rightMightright 15:47, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

flat -consistent-plausible (6) smooth --Richardrj ^{talk email} 15:14, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

formal gathering (8) assembly --Richardrj ^{talk email} 15:16, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

only just-not quite(6)

almost? --Lambiam^Talk 15:10, 6 September 2006 (UTC) or nearly--Richardrj ^{talk email} 15:12, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

or barely? -- the GREAT Gavini 15:14, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

here is the pattern (h_R___)Mightright 15:28, 6 September 2006 (UTC) hardly, then. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 15:34, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

environmentally sound (5) green --Richardrj ^{talk email} 15:12, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

or clean... -- the GREAT Gavini 15:12, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

(repulsive-looking) fruit (4)Mightright 15:04, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

ugli. --Lambiam^Talk 15:09, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

tnanx for your help dudes and dudettesMightright 15:26, 6 September 2006 (UTC) i need help with these last clues

aspersion (4)(_L_R) slur --Richardrj ^{talk email} 15:56, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

trash (A_O_N_E) Mightright 15:47, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

If it's the verb and assuming one of your letters is wrong, it could be trounce or atomize? That must be pretty much the entire crossword we've done for you now.--Shantavira 17:15, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

it is announce212.72.3.59 04:46, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

It couldn't be "announce". That has too many letters, and it doesn't mean "trash". JackofOz 06:57, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

But if "announce" is actually the right number of letters, then "denounce" could be a possible solution. --LarryMac 17:37, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I like that idea, except it doesn't fit the given pattern that starts with an A (A_O_N_E). JackofOz 22:28, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

<y> and <ll> in Argentina

I was discussing with a Spanish teacher how in Argentina, <y> and <ll> have a unique pronunciation. In many books, I've seen this sound transcribed as [ʒ], but having heard Argentinians from Buenos Aires speak, I think it is more like a lightly voiced [ʃ]. Any comments? Thanks in advance.--El aprendelenguas 15:50, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I always thought it was /ʒ/. It is both, though, in the Rioplatense Spanish article. -- the GREAT Gavini 16:11, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

It's a sound change in progress. Older speakers, particularly male say /ʒ/, younger ones, particularly females, devoice that. mnewmanqc 22:05, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

September 7

Metalled roads

In UK legislation the term "metalled road" appears frequently but i cannot find a definition of the term. Can anyone assist please, preferably with a legal definition from primary legislation or case law; alternatively from common usage.

Many thanks

In this sense, metal means broken stone. The OED has metal (11): Broken stone used in macadamizing roads or as ballast for a railway.--Shantavira 07:24, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I work for a civil engineering company - metalled roads are those made from a certain form of macadam or tarmac. doktorb _words^deeds 07:56, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Crosswords

While I'm here...=) doktorb _words^deeds 07:56, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Tony in ass-sucking to be a part of number 1? (5)

animals/birds

please help me to fill the following chart

Animal/bird    female     young       sound   
===========    =======    =========   =========
ape
bear           sow, she-bear cub         roar/growl
camel
cat            queen         kitten      meow
chicken        hen           chick       cluck
crow                         chick       caw
deer           doe           fawn
dog            bitch         puppy       bark
donkey         jenny         foal        bray
elephant       cow           calf        trumpet
horse          mare          foal        neigh/whinny
lion           lioness       cub         roar/growl
parrot                       chick       call/Squawk
peafowl        peahen        chick
pigeon         hen           chick       coo (coo)
snake                                    hiss
tiger          tigress       cub         roar/growl       
wolf           she-wolf      pup         howl/bark

220.247.229.57 08:56, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not even sure all of these words exist... Also, there's often a difference between the onomatopetic word for the sound the animal is making, and for the action verb, as in bark/woof. 惑乱 分からん 11:05, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I suggest you forget about the idea of animal "homes". Kennels are a human invention, and somewhat out of fashion. Nests are only used for rearing young.--Shantavira 12:47, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

This looks like homework to me, albeit a very simple one at that... Just a thought. -- the GREAT Gavini 15:28, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Just a couple unrelated comments -- In strict usage, "peacock" is a male peafowl. A horse's sound might be whinny instead of neigh. A parrot would squawk, not squark. --LarryMac 17:35, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry if my edits make some of the above editors comments seem confusing. I agree that the "home" section is completely silly (a lions home was given as "cage") and I've boldly removed it. I think we should persevere with the rest; we're doing pretty well so far.

I think chick might describe the young of any bird. So might egg....

If the questioner is not a native speaker, (s)he might find stable useful as a home for a horse.

I had no idea you could make tables like that.... TheMadBaron 19:58, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

It seems as a very primitive table to me... =S 惑乱 分からん 21:53, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

You can't make tables like that, or at least shouldn't. It presents an artificial systematicity that is not actually present in the language. --Ptcamn 23:10, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh.

Nope, sorry, I don't even know what systematiciticity is, but it's a reet good table. TheMadBaron 08:54, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

A female elephant is a cow. --LarryMac 20:48, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Maybe we should add male equivalents when appropriate, such as peacock, stallion, tomcat... 惑乱 分からん 21:54, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

So much missing here. For instance, a young female often has a name: heifer for cattle, gilt for pig, gimmer for sheep. Or castrated animals: gelding for horse, bullock for cattle, hog for pig, hogget for sheep. Beef, pork, mutton... · rodii · 22:03, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, yes, of course there's lots missing.... I mean, it doesn't even give the wing-span of a swallow.... I guess that the questioner isn't very interested in castrated animals.... TheMadBaron 09:00, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Would that be an African or European swallow? 惑乱 分からん 10:28, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

BURMA! TheMadBaron 11:52, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

See List of animal names - Nunh-huh 02:54, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Spanish: why vs because

I've begun learning Spanish using audio lessons by Michel Thomas. He mentions that, in speech, question function is indicated by tone where there's no question word in a sentence. For example, "no lo tienne" can be interpreted is "Don't you have it?" or "You don't have it" based on how we utter them. He adds that we need not distinguish with our tone when the sentence has question words like "what" and "why". But, given that "porke" is the word for both "why" and "because", how would a Spanish speaker resolve the ambiguity? -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 08:57, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

"Why" and "because" are very different in their orthography and stress. Spanish "why" is written as two words: por qué, pronounced <porˌkeː>, with stress on qué. "Because" is a single word, porque, with little or no stress as far as I can tell. Here's an example:

¿Por qué Esteban no está en clase?

'Why isn't Steve in class?'

Esteban no está en clase porque está enfermo.

'Steve isn't in class because he is sick.

szyslak (t, c, e) 09:11, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Ben. I get it now. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 09:52, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, there is a slight stress on the 'o' and the 'e' is pronounced differently, more like 'ih' in stead of 'ay' (well, it's not really like 'ay' - that is a common mispronunciation by anglophones becuase there is no English sound equivalent). DirkvdM 19:47, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

The stress isn't slight (actually secondary would be the more technical term). It just shifts from one case to the other. I don't think the actual vowel varies much by stress, at least in the varieties I am familiar with. With the exception of Catalan, Romance languages do not change the value of vowels based on stress like Germanic languages tend to do.

It's porque (because)= ['porke] in IPA and por qué (why?) = [por'ke] in IPA.

If you want good examples of all Spanish vowels, together with their IPA symbols, a video of a speaker saying them, and a flash cartoon of tongue movements and step by step descriptions, check out [this incredible site]. The guy's got English ones too. mnewmanqc 13:27, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the link and clarification, people. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 06:47, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Using nouns as adjectives that look like verbs

I'm interested in any data I can get on phrases like "blue-eyed," "long-armed," "double-sided," and "three-pronged" -- that is, phrases that use nouns (eye, arm, side, prong) as adjectives, but make them look like verbs or participles (by adding -ed). In particular, is there a name for this practice? Is it "acceptable" (whatever that means) with any noun? ("thick-ulnaed"? "V6-Engined"? "Deep-moated"?) If not, when is it acceptable? Is it just as acceptable without an adjective modifying the noun-cum-adjective ("tentacled monster", "corded phone")? ^L_Wizard @ 09:56, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

See English compound#Hyphenated compound adjectives. --Shantavira 12:43, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. You're referring me, more specifically, to this:

An adjective preceding a noun to which -d or -ed has been added as a past-participle construction:
   * "loud-mouthed hooligan"
   * "middle-aged lady"
   * "rose-tinted glasses"

which doesn't answer very many of my questions. ^L_Wizard @ 19:38, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Your last three phrases are cliches in everyday use and occur in the dictionary because they are used so frequently. One can certainly invent new combinations as needed, especially with numbers, etc. But if you are not a native speaker its probably safer to avoid inventing bizarre new ones - say "with a thick ulna" instead. Jameswilson 23:09, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, there seems to be a finite (but actually rather large) number of nouns that permit this kind of formation. An educated-sounding native speaker with a confident tone of voice could probably pair any noun with any adjective in such a way and give the impression that he's just being innovative or poetic. "The pale-foreheaded man sat in a three-armchaired office." But in a formal setting, or coming from a non-native speaker, it would probably raise some eyebrows. Bhumiya (said/done) 00:56, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

meaning

hi what is the meaning of Clarion, and from where does the name clarion originates from.

• I only know Clarion (the GPS unit creators). If you want to know where the name comes from, you might have better luck at their corporate website. The article I linked to mentions more things by the same name. - Mgm|^(talk) 11:33, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Or do you mean the musical instrument? In which case see clarion (instrument). The word is Latin in origin.--Shantavira 12:40, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I would guess a Roman origin, or the name having the same root as 'clear' to describe the type of trumpet (I'm having visions, for some reason, of an Edwardian brassware manufacturer inventing it on a slow day at the foundry). Rentwa 05:46, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Poem title is THE BRIDES by Alec Derwent Hope

Could anyone help me in getting the complete verse of the below poem.

Down the assembly line they roll and pass
.........
For light and music; a place for his cigarette:
Room for his knees; a honey of a clutch.’

Thanks Vasanth044 11:35, 7 September 2006 (UTC)Vasanth044

Shouldn't be too hard to google or find at the library? 惑乱 分からん 11:42, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Bung it in google book search [4] if you canny get to a library. I don't know if this is the complete poem. MeltBanana 13:34, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Who or That?

A friend of mine is teaching English in Japan, and was asked this question: in the sentence, "He is the only person (who) (that) knows the fact," which is correct? It seems to me it should be "he ...who" but some of the other teachers said it's not "he who knows" in this sentence, it's "person that knows", if you follow. Any thoughts? Thanks- Thedoorhinge 14:26, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

"He is the only person who knows the fact" is right, I think, according to the relative clause article. Jack is the boy who kissed Jenny is the example given there, and it uses "who". -- the GREAT Gavini 15:26, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

They are both correct. --Ptcamn 16:00, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Both? That's good, although the answer I gave seems to get the most ridiculing by grammar police when I say or write it... -- the GREAT Gavini 16:19, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I certainly prefer who, yet when I looked up a similar matter I found they were both acceptable. Durova 18:41, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I think who is the prescriptivist form but actual usage allows that. This is only for when you're talking about people. Animals or objects should never use who: *"the rock who has moss growing on it" AEuSoes1 20:10, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

You're right, "who" is reserved for people, and in a perfect world, "that" would be reserved for non-people. But applying that rule strictly could get us into trouble. The old song "The girl that I marry" would sound rather silly as "The girl whom I marry", even if the latter form is pedantically correct. So, there are cases where "that" is the better word in relation to people, but its use is mostly not justified and, in my opinion, should be avoided. JackofOz 22:25, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Why should "that" be avoided in relation to people? What's wrong with it? --Ptcamn 22:44, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I guess it comes down to a question of personal preference and style in many cases. Would you say Jimbo Wales is "the person who founded Wikipedia", or "the person that founded Wikipedia"? I prefer the former, and if I see anything like the latter construction in any of our articles, I immediately change "that" to "who". I've had no objections so far. I generally reserve "that" for non-human animals and inanimates. JackofOz 01:33, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

You can have your personal preferences, but I don't think you're actually allowed to go around changing articles: The Manual of Style says In June 2005, the Arbitration Committee ruled that, when either of two styles is acceptable, it is inappropriate for a Wikipedia editor to change from one style to another unless there is some substantial reason for the change. (And I'd actually prefer "that" in this particular example, anyway.) --Ptcamn 11:47, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I'd always heard that "who" was for people only, "which" was for non-people only, and "that" was fine for anything, even prescriptively speaking. So you're saying that "that" as a relative pronoun functions identically to "which?" -Elmer Clark 01:14, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks everyone, I have been at the very least lead in the right direction. My take at this point is that in a restrictive clause either "who" or "that" is ok and in a non-restrictive clause only "who" is ok. At least that's what the Japanese are now being taught! Thedoorhinge 03:58, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I arbitrarily choose whichever sounds correct. --Proficient 06:27, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Is it "flip chart" or "flipchart"? Or does it matter?

Dictionary.com just has "flip chart." But I see on the Internet that businesses use both "flip chart" and "flipchart." Is one correct and the other not correct?

Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary doesn't list "flipchart." The Oxford English Dictionary lists "flip chart" and has several quotes with it as two words, but it also has one quote from 1985 which uses "flipchart." I'd use flip chart, since it seems that flipchart isn't widely acknowledged by dictionaries. Philbert^2.71828 00:10, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Huge lists of vocabulary

Hi, I'm looking for a knowledge resource where very big lists of vocabulary with their direct translation into as many as possible languages. Anyone? Thanks.

Wiktionary. --Ptcamn 22:32, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you very much, didn't know the answer was so close.

September 8

Words invented in the last 50 years germaine to 4th graders

Please provide any cogent words germaine to a fourth grade class project in New England. List words that did not exist prior to 1956. No proper names please.

Thanks.

Note: Germaine is a proper name. The adjective you want is germane. JackofOz 01:20, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I guess that depends a bit on your exact idea of what is germane for a 4th-grade project. Words that instantly come to mind are "internet" plus any number of terms related to communications technology and computer games (the avreage fourth grader will probably not know what ping or DNS means, but words like "adventure", "shooter" (both in the video game sense), "joystick" or "google" (as a verb) wil be instantly recognizable to them). There has also been a marked influx of elements from Japanese culture in the last decades, along with many words that will be recognizable to 10-year-olds (stuff like "manga", "anime", etc which certainly were not part of the English language in 1956 but are pretty commonplace today). Then there's stuff like "AIDS" and a huge number of political terms that reflect the change in world politics in the last 50 years, but it might be difficult to find terms the average fourth grader can relate to -- Ferkelparade π 01:30, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

You might be interested in the Benoit College Mindset List. [5]. Each year they list things that are new to, or alien to, the experiences of that years' graduating class. Some of these will involve words that have been invented or changed meaning. For example, for this years' graduates, "Cyberspace has always existed, Barbie has always had a job, A "Hair Band" is some sort of fashion accessory, Mrs. Fields' cookies and Swatch watches have always been favorites, Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) has always been available to doctors, adn Hip-hop and rap have always been popular musical forms". For 2002 graduates, "Their lifetime has always included AIDS, They never had a polio shot, and likely, do not know what it is, They have never owned a record player, They may never have heard of an 8-track, and chances are they've never heard or seen one, They were born the year Walkmen were introduced by Sony, and There has always been MTV, and it has always included non-musical shows." -Nunh-huh 02:35, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

It also depends on what your meaning of "invented" is. Dishwasher used to only be a profession, broadcast had a completely different meaning before radio, and "instant messenger" is a term that constitutes preexisting words for a new meaning. AEuSoes1 05:08, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. I had to look it up to make sure that you were using germane properly -- you were not -- you misspelled it. --Proficient 06:28, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Err ... I think I made that point 3 days ago.  :--) JackofOz 20:38, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

"Run out on a rail"

Does anyone know the origin of this phrase? I can't seem to find anything through my mad Google-fu. Dgies 02:38, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

"Run out of town on a rail". Said of someone who's been chased away from a place in disgrace. (I think the rail in question was a part of a fence.) - Nunh-huh 02:43, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Surprise...Riding the rail. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 02:56, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

If you watch the excellent film O Brother, Where Art Thou?, there's someone (literally) run out of town on a rail at the end. Ziggurat 03:03, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

That's why I was asking. I was wondering if that was the origin or if they were just being dramatic. Dgies 03:58, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Apparently it's something that people actually did: including Benedict Arnold. Ziggurat 04:05, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd assume back then that the most reliable way to run to the next port of civilization would be to follow the rails. It's a lot smarter than "running out of town into an uncharted desert".  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  07:35, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Here's an excerpt from Mark Twain's Adventures of Huckleberry Finn that should help you visualize being "run out on a rail" (a rail being a wooden post):

"here comes a raging rush of people with torches, and an awful whooping and yelling, and banging tin pans and blowing horns; and we jumped to one side to let them go by; and as they went by I see they had the king and the duke astraddle of a rail--that is, I knowed it WAS the king and the duke, though they was all over tar and feathers, and didn't look like nothing in the world that was human--just looked like a couple of monstrous big soldier-plumes."

A rather ignominious and painful castigation, to be sure!Jhiga 20:25, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

solfege

where can I find three facts about solfΠège?

You can probably find a whole lot more at solfège. This is an encyclopedia. :) DirkvdM 05:56, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

10 Wikidollars that was a homework question.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  07:32, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

• Why are you throwing with your Wikipedia:WikiMoney? You can use it for much more useful stuff than betting... ;) - Mgm|^(talk) 08:03, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

You can? Please suitly emphazi! Luigi30 (Taλk) 12:19, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh don't patrozine.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  13:12, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm using it as an incentive to get people to write good articles. Unfortunately, no bites yet. - Mgm|^(talk) 18:39, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Would you dare offering it in advance? How much do you have? @_@ 惑乱 分からん 01:36, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

German Translations

What is the german translation for "favorite TV show"

Bevorzugte Fernsehschau? DirkvdM 05:45, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Lieblingsfernsehsendung ---Sluzzelin 05:48, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Sounds much better. DirkvdM 05:57, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually I feel clueless on German orthography these days and feel tempted to abuse this space and opportunity to rant against the German spelling reform, the reform of the reform, and the reform of the reform of the reform.---Sluzzelin 06:56, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

What could be more positively splendid than a spelling reform?  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  13:10, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Spelling used to be one of the few simple things about the German language. Now the grammar remains complicated and the spelling has become chaotic (between people adopting and rejecting the reforms). Durova 13:42, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I do like it when a deliberate choice is made to include such oddities in a language as triple letters, like in Schifffahrt. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 02:09, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

And did anyone see the recent Diktat on RTL? They discussed the word 'Helllicht' - the general feeling was 'I know it's right, but it's ugly'

Let me try my hand a at spelling reform. r-e-f-o-r-m. How did I do? DirkvdM 07:18, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

You handled the spelling all right but I think you need a grammar reform.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  16:39, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Damn, that was a typo. It seems I was so focused on getting that one word right that I ignored the rest. DirkvdM 06:04, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

animals

pl. help me to find out how young animals and birds are called? e.g. young dog is puppy and young. lion is cub. what about other animals/birds are called? thank you.

Check out WP's list of animal names.---Sluzzelin 07:52, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Opposite word

What is the opposite word to misanthrope?

Misanthrope comes from Greek misanthropos meaning hating humankind. Since anthropos is humankind and philos means love, I would venture to say that a philanthrope or something along those lines is the antonym for misanthrope. Disclaimer: I am not an expert schyler 12:36, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Philanthropist is probably what you want. --Ptcamn 15:32, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Check out Wiktionary. Altruist is another option. Btw, a misantrhopist is "a person who hates all mankind; a person who hates the human race" and a misanthrope is "an individual who hates society and people in general". Is there really a subtle difference or was there a communication breakdown at Wiktionary? DirkvdM 07:27, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I can sense no subtle difference with my extremely sensitive native speaker antennae.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  16:37, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Being a non-native speaker (alien antennae), I am not going to correct the English Wiktionary. You do it. DirkvdM 06:08, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Writing dictionaries is scary business. You risk challenging the very foundations of extremely picky peoples' beliefs. That being said, even after I changed it, Wiktionary:misanthropic and Wiktionary:misanthropy all have slightly different definitions, though meaning the same thing. Chaos!  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  08:41, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

polish virtuti militari 2 corps divisions award recipients

I tried to see if my fathers name of andrzej skalka was included in the award recipients of the polish second corps division during the second world war in the batle of bologna in Italy during the second world war which I have his medal. Why is he not listed?

Which list are you referring to? P.S. Til next time, please write several, shorter sentences or split the clauses with commas... 惑乱 分からん 13:56, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is created by all its thousands of editors. If you have found something lacking in an article, please improve it. Have a look at Welcome, newcomers. ColinFine 23:11, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

'Archival' as a noun

I'm interested to hear informed opinions regarding the use of 'archival' as a noun. For example: "Send that videotape to the library for long term archival." In this sense, we are trying to convey more than simple storage. We are attempting to imply catalog, preservation and storage in a manner optimized for re-use.

Do you consider this acceptable usage? dpotter 20:54, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

• What's wrong with "archival storage" or "archiving"? --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 04:50, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

It sounds more like spoken office slang than something which would be used in ordinary expository written English. AnonMoos 14:23, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

• No, I would go with either of Jpgordon's suggestions. According to various dictionaries 'archival' is an adjective, not a noun. - Mgm|^(talk) 18:37, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

To me your quotation is completely normal and unexceptionable, and has exactly the connotation you suggest. I regard the word as an abstract noun, like 'rehearsal', 'renewal' and 'committal': I am surprised to find dictionaries listing it as an adjective only, since I cannot think of a context in which I would use it adjectivally. (I would construe 'archival system' as 'system for archival'). I wonder if this is a dialectal question? I am in the UK. ColinFine 23:19, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestions. I've substituted "archiving," as I am attempting to maintain proper word usage in this document. I spoke with some associates, who agreed that the usage I suggested "sounded natural" although I suspect that this may be professional jargon from my industry. For those interested in dialect, I am a broadcast professional in the USA. dpotter 17:59, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Translation for Change

I am looking for a Symbol in any language to describe aspects of change. I am looking for a one, or few, character symbol or word. The translation of the word change is vague I know, so to better describe what I'm looking for here are some phrases to relay the essence of my thought;

to cease a behavior in trade for a better one, the natural evolution of, benefit with growth

… a more neutral translation can be given though the general good in change is a part of what I seek.

Also, from a far eastern perspective, there lies a connection with the Taoist “way” of change. I have heard of an Arabic symbol in the shape of a shooting star that may have some relevance to the meaning as well. Thank you

§€‡Ħ

Δ (or δ) are the only ones that come to my mind. Λυδαcιτγ 00:10, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Just what I was thinking. See Delta. User:Zoe|(talk) 02:09, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

A lowercase "d" is also used for "delta". StuRat 02:22, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

That's just change. He is looking for improvement (no pun). DirkvdM 07:31, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Why do you feel it necessary to point out that you have made no pun?  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  16:34, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

You could look at Blissymbols to possibly get a few ideas. Traditional far-eastern philosophies are not usually known for giving prominence to the idea of collective forward progress. The crescent plus star (usually with more than five points before the 20th-century, with five points since the 20th century) has been used as a kind of symbol of the Ottoman Empire and/or Islam, and 5-pointed stars without crescents appear on various Arab flags, but I don't know of any exact association with what you're looking for. 14:18, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

You can use an arrow --> to signify change. "Blue --> Red", as if the color blue on a screen changed or transitioned to red. --Proficient 06:30, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Is "funnily" a proper English word?

I've always avoided using the word "funnily" (I'm not sure if I'm even spelling it correctly) as, though it doesn't seem to break any of the basic rules of English that I know of, it just feels extremely sloppy to use, and for some reason I can't really identify, it just doesn't sound like a proper English word. Yet I've heard it used on occasion by some rather intelligent people. Eg.: "I looked up the word "dictionary" in the dictionary, and "funnily" enough, it wasn't there". Is "funnily" a word?

A related question: Does it violate any rule in the English language to use two (or more) adverbs sequentially? I often find myself doing that, but something feels wrong about it. Again, it feels sloppy, but doesn't seem to violate any rule that I know of. Eg.: "She "seemingly easily" arrived at a solution to a problem that had confounded the rest of us". Or even worse: "The age of a tree is "generally rationally proportionately" related to its size". I know that last one could easily be rewritten in a far less "sloppy" sounding manner, such as: "Generally speaking, a tree's age is quite rationally proportionate to its size". (I'm also no plant biologist, so please ignore the issue as to whether the statement is true or not!) Is there any "rule" in the English language prohibiting the sequential use of adverbs?

Thanks! Loomis 21:24, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Funnily is a perfectly fine word, and it appears in Merriam-Webster's 11th Collegiate Dictionary. I'm not sure how often it's used without being followed by "enough".... Certainly you don't have to use it if it annoys you! As to adverbs, I don't think it's the part of speech that's the problem, but the repeated "-ly" endings. You probably wouldn't object to "rather easily" or "somewhat shabbily". - Nunh-huh 23:08, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I find that using "-ly" adverbs sequentially sounds rather poetic. "The man smoothly(,) quietly slips down the alley." I'll admit it's the slightest bit awkward, but not entirely damnable, I would hope. As for rules for sequential adverb order, yes, they exist, but as with adjectives (Adjective#Adjective_order), I imagine they're rather complex when formerly thought out, and it'd probably be best something you let time teach to you.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  16:31, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Funnily, funnily, funnily, funnily, life is but a dream. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 21:21, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Double "ly" adverbs sound cool. --Proficient 06:31, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I've been practising Percy Grainger's "Colonial Song", and last night I took the trouble to read his preface to the music. It includes "Perhaps it is not unnatural that people living more or less lonelily in vast virgin countries ...". Never seen that word before (but then, Percy was fairly unorthodox with most stuff. That's probably why I like his music so much). JackofOz 20:54, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

What a strange word. How do you pronounce that? Lowne-lily or low-nuh-lily?  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  01:43, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

No authoritative idea, but I'd guess the former. JackofOz 12:29, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Funnily enough, 'funnilly' is a proper word nad can be used like: 'He rode his bike rather funnilly..'--Light current 04:01, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I can't possibly see how lonelily can be a proper English word. It seems to be have a redundant "ly" to it. You can do that to practically any "ly" word. And they lived Happilily ever after. Of course that doesn't at all mean that poets and artists should avoid words that don't exist. On the contrary. Lewis Carroll's Jabberwocky is a great example of the masterful use of non-existant words. Loomis 10:41, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I can see how he formed it. He added -ly to the adjective lonely, just as the adverb happily is formed by adding -ly to the adjective happy. I think it's quite an OK procedure, even if the resulting word is a bit of a mouthful. JackofOz 12:29, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

The real question, is sillily a proper adverb? Luigi30 (Taλk) 12:46, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Now that I think of it, you're right, Jack. It was just a knee-jerk reflex of mine to assume that "lonely" was an adverb just because it ended with an "ly", when it's clearly just an adjective. Adding an "ly" to it shouldn't be a problem. Loomis 23:35, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

But wait a sec! "Lonely" can be an adverb! If you use "lone" as an adjective, "lonely" can then be an adverb: "The lone wolf just sat there, lonely". Of course it's not always an adjective. I think I'll just quit while I'm ahead. I'm starting to get a headache. :-) Loomis 23:46, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia Tanslation Program

It seems to work on a hundred languages. I would like to know if it is ok to use it to translate other web sites? If yes How ? If no, how does it work?

– — … ° ≈ ± − × ÷ ← → · § 

24.127.173.7 21:59, 8 September 2006 (UTC) sholom fine

You can't copy copyrighted material, otherwis it would be OK to translate information for personal use. 惑乱 分からん 22:08, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia's translation programs are called "human beings who know 2 or more languages." ColourBurst 23:14, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, since machine translations are notoriously unreliable. StuRat 02:20, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

And the articles are not translated from the English Wikipedia. It is just another Wikipedia in a different language. Some articles however are translated, double however, many edits are made after the translations. — [Mac Davis] (talk) (Desk|Help me improve)

September 9

How do you really pronounce Liebe?

Simple question really for those who know that would count me out I really need to know how to pronounce this word properly.

• Lee-buh. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 04:40, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

IPA: /'liːbə/ [6], by the way. -- the GREAT Gavini 07:01, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

• If you mean the German word for love. It might mean something else in another language I don't know about. - Mgm|^(talk) 18:33, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I doubt it - unless the word has a capital letter in that language too. -- the GREAT Gavini 19:26, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

List of adjectival forms of place names

I was wondering after looking at this if there is another list with the country and when the people of the country call themselves as in

France - Français, Germany - Deutsche, etc.. Rex the first ^{talk | contribs} 12:52, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

These might be helpful: List of countries by native names and List of countries and capitals in native languages (though they dont list what the people call themselves). ---Sluzzelin 13:46, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

name of cities

I find that in your pages cities like Assab, Barentu and Ghindae are found in Eritrea. Is there any one who can tell me the meanings of these names and their origin?—

What is a tentaive tone?

What is a tentaive tone?

Do you mean "tentative"? Bhumiya (said/done) 02:05, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not exactly sure, but I'd say, well, guess, really, that it's a tone which implies you aren't absolutely sure of what you're saying. Then again, I could be wrong. :-) StuRat 05:37, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I think it refers to a way of expressing yourself that makes clear you are not overly confident of what you are saying (or writing), but that your viewpoints and conclusions are tentative, so that there is room for discussion and negotiation. An example is the previous sentence starting with "I think". That sets a tentative tone. If the sentence had started: "It refers to a way ...", it would have sounded like an authoritative statement. Other things you can add to make the tone tentative are "I guess", "possibly", and auxiliary verbs like "may". In a dialogue, a tentative tone may facilitate communication: others may venture a different viewpoint without explicitly contradicting you. In scientific or other factual writing, one should be very careful in when to use a tentative tone: it should be used precisely when you can't be sure of the factuality of the statements put forward. In all contexts, it is best to avoid weasel words, which should not be substituted for the tentative tone. --Lambiam^Talk 06:31, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

It's possible that "tentative tone" is another way of saying passive voice. Thedoorhinge 18:48, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Thirty million Russians were killed by Stalin. Sounds quite decisive to me. JackofOz 20:46, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

True, but he only killed them passively. Loomis 23:30, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Greeting

I don't suppose you could possibly list in as many languages as possible the following:

"Hello my friend"

It is a thing me and my (male) friend do, where we say it to each other in other languages, but we have only started it. So far I know German, French, Italian and Spanish. Any help would be appreciated. It must also be ablle to be written in an English phone. Yours, Christopher

In Hebrew "shalom chaver" (or shalom chavera if the friend is a woman). That is a transliteration; the original is obviously in the Hebrew alphabet. Batmanand | Talk 22:17, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Hej, min vän in Swedish. Rueckk 23:22, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Hallo, mijn vriend in Dutch. (Hehe, I'm first)Evilbu 00:17, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Nǐhǎo, péngyǒu in Chinese. You might want to look at Wiktionary's definitions (1 2). Λυδαcιτγ 00:36, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Here's some...

• Tagalog: Kumusta, aking kaibigan.
• Cebuano: Kumusta, akong higala.
• Kapampangan: Kumusta, kakung kaluguran.
• Ilokano: Kumusta, gayyemko.
• Catalan: Hola, amic meu.
• Portuguese: Olá, meu amigo.
• Japanese: こんにちは、友達。konnichiwa, tomodachi
• Russian: Привет, мой друг. privet, moj drug.
• Korean: 네 친구야, 안녕. ne chingu ya, annyeong.

--Chris S. 01:15, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

• Korean correction: You don't need ne (nae, actually, but it should be dropped). --Kjoonlee 02:02, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

• Indonesian: Selamat, teman saya. Not sure if adding 'saya' ('my') would sound right, though, and that would probably be an issue in many languages. DirkvdM 06:19, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Some attempts by myself:

• Afrikaans: Hallo, my vriend.
• Scots Gaelic:Halò mo charaid. (funny - could have sworn there was a vocative case in SG)

-- the GREAT Gavini 07:03, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

This makes me think of an old Marvel joke, "You know that you've read too many Marvel comics when you start calling your old friend "Old friend!"... Anyway, I thought it was slightly funny... ;) 惑乱 分からん 16:03, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

German: Hallo, mein Freund. Latin: Salve, mi amice. —Daniel (‽) 21:24, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Joual: Salut, mon chum! Loomis 10:32, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

September 10

A small language in Armenia, related to Babylonia

Hello,

someone just told me he spoke to an Armenian. He said his parents were from Armenia, but that he was born in Moscow and went to school in Russian. However, they moved to Belgium, resulting in him being fluent in Dutch (and he took some English and French classes). But he also spoke of a not well known language in Armenia, or the region surrounding it, which is related to the ancient Babylonia?

Does anyone have any idea what language that could be? (not all the information is 100% correct I'm afraid, because the person telling me this also confused the Turks and Russians when it came to the Armenian genocide)

(Well, I wish everyone in Belgium was that eager to learn new languages..)

Thank you!

Evilbu 00:25, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

For questions like this try Ethnologue MeltBanana 01:16, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

The Babylonians spoke Akkadian, a Semitic language. Ethnologue says the only Semitic language spoken by Armenian natives is Assyrian Neo-Aramaic, which had 3,000 speakers in the country in 1999. That could be it. -- Mwalcoff 02:18, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Various languages were spoken in Babylonia during various periods of its history, and in various social contexts. During its later history, Aramaic was the administrative language of the empire and a widely-spoken lingua franca. It eventually took over everywhere, until it was replaced by Arabic after the Muslim conquest. During the early days, and in Babylonia proper, Akkadian was spoken, though it eventually lost out to Aramaic even in its heartland. Both of these are Semitic languages, and I don't think a Semitic language ever penetrated as far north as the Caucasus. However, Sumerian and Elamite were also spoken in the same general area, and I seem to recall a Georgian linguist recently proposing that Georgian was related to either Elamite or Sumerian. In either case, the only reason it can't be rejected out of hand is the fact that Elamite and Sumerian are difficult to classify. Caucasian linguists do seem to enjoy linking their languages with far-flung language isolates: Basque, for instance. This acquaintance of yours might have learned some version of the Georgian-Elamite/Sumerian theory and confused Georgian with Armenian. But keep in mind that Armenian is an Indo-European language, so its lineage is fairly certain, as opposed to Georgian. There is no record of an Indo-European language ever being spoken in Babylonia, unless you count the minor incursions of Greek and Roman. On edit: I just saw Mwalcoff's comment. That seems the most likely explanation by far. Bhumiya (said/done) 02:30, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Barg in on someone

Hello! I've searched several online dictionaries, but I simply can't find one that would explain the phrase 'barg in on someone'. Where should I look anyway - 'normal' dictionaries, idioms dictionaries...? Thank you! --Missmarple 07:30, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Not barge, perchance? -- the GREAT Gavini 07:56, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Wiktionary:barge, under the "verb" section.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  08:33, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

That's it - thanks to you both :) --Missmarple 08:37, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Another Miss Marple mystery solved! DirkvdM 05:51, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Unknown language moved from Misc desk

"vol os shyl, ais ai tal's thaer, ai't byr toli, ai't byr vaer"

Now im not lookin for a translation of this, but i would like to know what langauge it is written in, could you please reply on my talk page if anyone knows.

Thanks, Childzy ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 20:27, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Can you tell us the context? Btw, this should better be posed at the "language" page. 惑乱 分からん 22:58, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Sounds a bit Germanic or Old English, but old English lacked a "V". Tried Online Etymology Dictionary http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?l=w&p=7 : Guessing Vol could be like German "Wollen" or English "will" (v.) O.E. *willan, wyllan "to wish, desire, want" , from P.Gmc. *welljan (cf. O.S. willian, O.N. vilja, O.Fris. willa, Du. willen, O.H.G. wellan, Ger. wollen, Goth. wiljan "to will, wish, desire," Goth. waljan "to choose"), from PIE *wel-/*wol- "be pleasing" (L. volo, velle "to wish, will, desire;" O.C.S. voljo, voliti "to will," veljo, veleti "to command;" ...Cf. also O.E. wel "well," lit. "according to one's wish;" ... Os sounds like "us:" O.E. us (cognate with O.S., O.Fris. us, O.N., Swed. oss), ... L. nos "we, us;" ... Du. ons, Ger. uns. Thaer sounds like "there:" O.E. þær "in or at that place," from P.Gmc. *thær (cf. O.S. thar, O.Fris. ther) Not Anglo Saxon. shyl makes me think of "Scyld" in Beowulf. vaer sounds like it might be related to "very" "verify:" very c.1250, verray "true, real, genuine," ...(cf. O.E. wær "a compact," O.Du., O.H.G. war, Du. waar, Ger. wahr "true;" Welsh gwyr, O.Ir. fir "true;" O.C.S. vera "faith"). Edison 01:06, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

ETA more guessing: "Ai" reminds me of "aye" or "yes" so the end could be "Aye, it be our 'toli,' Aye it be our truth" Edison 04:46, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

My first impression was that it looked like Yiddish or some English dialect like Scots, but I can't make heads or tails of it, so it could be a bad guess... =S (Btw, very and verify are loans from French/Latin.) 惑乱 分からん 01:25, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't recognize it, but xrce guesses Welsh. SWAdair 01:50, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Its definitely not Welsh (not the sort that I studied anyway!)--Light current 01:53, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't look much like it, it appears to be some sort of verse... Hmmm, is this a legitimate spelling, or is this a phonetic approximation you made yourself? 惑乱 分からん 01:56, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Isn't this on the wrong desk? I doubt it's Germanic. It looks like an obscure non-Welsh Brittonic language. -- the GREAT Gavini 08:22, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Not now!--Light current 09:12, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Not now? -- the GREAT Gavini 17:57, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

It looks like Icelandic to me. --Lambiam^Talk 09:14, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't look much like Icelandic... 惑乱 分からん 10:59, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I now think it is some fantasy language. I found this sentence on a website dedicated to role-playing games: "The book of Life (Si Shyl os Jhori) written by the Shyr Tandraer reveals more information to Mor’loki." Furthermore, "Shyl" seems to be a popular name for elves.  --Lambiam^Talk 09:43, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't appear to be any of the Tolkein languages, and that guy doesn't even use it consistantly on his website, so maybe it's less than a language and more a collection of phrases from unfinished fantasy conlang.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  14:09, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Wait, someone just asked us a question in Elvish? (shudder) Luigi30 (Taλk) 12:50, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I thought Elvish was dead.--Light current 12:53, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Here is another online identifier which guesses at Manx Finnish and Polish among others. MeltBanana 17:36, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Which (at least for Finnish and Polish) is clearly wrong, and mostly proves how bad AI is for language recognition... 惑乱 分からん 18:55, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, it's certainly not Finnish or Polish, or anything Slavic for that matter. But Manx or Cornish went through my mind too. That was after I initially thought Yiddish but was persuaded to reconsider. JackofOz 21:23, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I am not really sure, but I a, thinking either Gaelic or Celtic origin....it has been 20 years since I've seen either, but it reminds me heabily of those langauges--17:42, 13 September 2006 (UTC)~

sanquine

Dear friends,

I'm quite simply trying to find the definition of the word "Sanquine"
                                                      Larry

It's "sanguine", apparently meaning "optimistic" or "blood red", from the Latin word for blood (Etymology: Middle English sanguin, from Anglo-French, from Latin sanguineus, from sanguin-, sanguis). For queries like this, there are several good free English dictionaries online, such as http://www.dictionary.com , http://www.m-w.com etc, so you could check out for yourself next time you wonder about a word. 惑乱 分からん 12:37, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

And let's not forget Wiktionary! -Elmer Clark 06:26, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Wiktionary cannot handle typoes, like "sanquine". 惑乱 分からん 14:42, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Its roots stem back to a long-discredited medical theory that believed emotions were controlled by "humors" - or different liquids in the body. Other related adjectives include phlegmatic and bilious. Durova 02:15, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

French : des/de negation(infinitives)

Hello

I am confused about negations in French :

"Je suis un professeur. Je ne suis pas un professeur."

"J'ai une voiture. Je n'ai pas de voiture."

Okay, so for negations, with a verb different from être: indefinite articles become "de".

But what to do here?

1. "Je ne veux pas manger de légumes." "Je ne veux pas manger des légumes."

2. "Il ne faut pas dire des choses comme ça." "Il ne faut pas dire de choses comme ça."

Random google check gave some contradicting answers

So I don't know what to do when there are auxiliary verbs and infinitives hanging around.

Thanks! Evilbu 16:38, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I have always assumed that nouns in plurals must have a "des" or "les" article, irregardless, thus "de choses" and "de légumes" are incorrect. Having said that, I must admit that my French is very rudimentary, and I might well be wrong... 惑乱 分からん 16:43, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I think de negates the object in general, while des refers to one which is definite. For instance, in your example 1, the first sentence means "I don't want to eat vegetables"; the second means "I don't want to eat the vegetables." By the way, your professeur sentences are incorrect: they should be Je suis professeur and Je ne suis pas professeur. -- the GREAT Gavini 19:12, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

In both 1 and 2, use des, which is in both cases indefinite. For the example with voiture, think of pas de as a standard combination meaning "no". Then there is another rule you must know: after de, you must omit a following du, de la or des. So *Je n'ai pas de des légumes becomes: Je n'ai pas de légumes. Des légumes = "vegetables"; pas de légumes = "no vegetables". Think of pas de as negating the existence of the following noun. So it is Je ne mange pas des légumes, because the negation here is not of the veggies, but of the eating. --Lambiam^Talk 20:53, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Having said that, the overwhelming majority of examples on French-language pages uses de for all cases, not des, as in: Je ne peux pas manger de fruits, de légumes ... and Il ne faut pas manger d’œufs après un vaccin.  --Lambiam^Talk 21:17, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Even my friends can't understand it, by I have a particular affection for Québecois French. I tend to love the most blue-collar, down-to-earth, difficult to comprehend dialects of languages, especial the joual version of Québecois French. So called "pure" or "proper" languages like "Parisian French" or "the Queen's English" bore me to death. Just give me some Cockney or some Glasweigian English and I'm fascinated.

Anyway, in case anyone's interested (which you probably aren't), I'd just like to try my best to translate at least a couple of the above phrases into joual. I'm not fluent in it, but I'll do my best:

"Proper" French: "Je suis professeur. Je ne suis pas professeur". "Joual": "Behn...m'way, shouie professeur, sti!. Behn! m'way, shouie poh professeur, sti!"

"J'ai une voiture. Je n'ai pas de voiture." = "M'way, j'men ai mon chaur, sti!. M'way, j'men ais poh'd chaur, maudit tabarnac!"

"I don't want to eat any vegetables" = "Sti tabarnac! J'veut poh d'legumes, sti!"

"You shouldn't say these things" = "Ta gueulle!!! Faut poh parler comme ça! Sti tabarwette!" Loomis 23:09, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Moé itou, j'aime ben le joual, sti ! ;-) --Chris S. 05:59, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks everyone, but what about "Il ne faut pas de dire choses comme ça"?Evilbu 00:39, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

impression from a non-native speaker: de choses-K.C. Tang 03:52, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

name of cities

I find that in your pages cities like Assab, Barentu and Ghindae are found in Eritrea. Is there any one who can tell me the meanings of these names and their origin?

Sorry that you have to keep asking this question without any decent answers, unfortunately Wikipedia's coverage of African topics is rather woeful. Here are some things I have found scrabbling about the web particularly google book search.

Barentu is named after the semi-legendary founder of the group of people.

"Oromo have several clans (gosa, qomoo). The Oromo are said to be of two major groups or moieties descended from the two 'houses' (wives) of the person Oromo represented by Borana and Barentu (Barenttuma). Borana was senior (angafa) and Barentu junior (qutisu)… The descendants of Borana and Barentu form the major Oromo clans and sub-clans. They include Borana, Macha, Tuuiiama, Wallo, Garrii, Gurraa, Arsi, Karrayyu, Itu, Ala, Qaiioo, Anniyya, Tummugga or Marawa, Orma, Akkichuu, Liban, Jile, Gofa, Sidamo, Sooddo, Galaan, Gujii and many others. However, in reality there is extensive overlap in the area they occupy and their community groups. And since marriage among Oromo occurs only between different clans there was high degree of homogeneity" ("The Oromo People and Oromia" 1998, 3).[7]

Assab may be related to the Arabic word meaning "to bind" and suggest social cohesion. Could get nowhere with Ghinda or Ghinda'e, you would probably have to go to the place and ask them there. Place name etymology is confusing and difficult for even well studied places and different languages and people over many years can corrupt a name far beyond its original menaning. Sorry this is of little help. MeltBanana 21:52, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Might I suggest asking the Eritrean embassy in your home country? They probably have an email address. And if they do answer you, would you favor us by coming back here and updating the town pages with that information? User:Zoe|(talk) 16:55, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

About an english phrase

What is meant by the phrase - Machiavellian conniver?

Warm regards, Capt Ajay A Sawarkar

It's a reference to Machiavelli. Have a read. JackofOz 23:41, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

A person who tries to get what he wants through subtle conspiracies against his rivals (originally in politics, now in business, etc, too). Jameswilson 23:51, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

It also implies great ruthlessness and efficiency, and has a sinister connotation. It is far from neutral. Bhumiya (said/done) 00:24, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

If you'd rather slip a yellow and black Cliff's Notes cover over your computer for a moment, Machiavelli is famous for a brutally frank treatise about politics: how to get power, how to keep it, and how to expand it - including such things as extinguishing the previous ruling family. In adjectival form it refers to someone who will stop at nothing to achieve a goal - you've quoted a very pejorative (although not vulgar) phrase. Durova 02:12, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

September 11

What is the name of this decade?

We have the 60's, the 70's, the 80's and the 90's... but what do we call this decade?

There are a couple of web pages that seem to spectulate about this:

Slate.com: http://www.slate.com/id/2111435/

Blogcritics.org: http://blogcritics.org/archives/2005/11/15/142852.php

JSOnline:http://www2.jsonline.com/news/2000/y2k/jan00/ballot01123199.asp

But none of them seem to be confident in the answer.

Can someone help resolve this once and for all?

--- JAMES ---

If we haven't come up with a consensus by this point, then we might as well wait for the next century. ;) Durova 02:08, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

This was discussed here before somewhat recently. Regardless of what one thinks "should" be the name, I don't think there's any standardized usage yet. AnonMoos 02:30, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

• The Post-Nineties decade, perhaps? -- RayBirks 02:40, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps the "oughtas" since things haven't gone the way they "should oughta."Edison 04:23, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Whatever becomes colloquial in a few decades. It would possibly stick for the centuries range. — [Mac Davis] (talk) (Desk|Help me improve)

When I asked the question before, the answer seemed to be that 'noughties' was the most common term. But I prefer 'naughties'. DirkvdM 06:20, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Hmm.... --Proficient 06:32, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

See noughties. I mean 2000s.--Shantavira 08:11, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

IPA synthesizer

Is there any software program that converts IPA text into speech?

Thanks,

lots of issues | leave me a message 09:32, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Somebody asked this exact question on the LJ Linguaphiles group a week or so ago. Maybe it was you. I'll go get the answer from there anyways.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  09:43, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

It totally wasn't Linguaphiles, it was conlangs, but whatever. This link was given, though I'm not sure how close they get to IPA with their research. Wow, I just tried it out the demo, and it's pretty damn convincing!  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  10:02, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Not bad, this demo, but the input is not IPA. What if you have [hɛːn wlaːd vənˈhadaɨ] as input? --Lambiam^Talk 16:10, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Wait until they release a more customizable demo!  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  01:41, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

OT, but what do you mean [vənˈhadaɨ]? Surely [vəṇadaɨ] (where I don't really mean /ṇ/, but an unvoiced /n/, for which I can't find the symbol on the editing page). ColinFine 22:41, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Deaf thought

Hi!
I've got an unusual question: What does a person born deaf think in? I mean most people will "think" in their native language. My question is what would a deaf person think in, and does a lack of a language to think in impair the deaf person's ability to learn? --Fir0002 10:12, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Good question. I would guess they would think in Sign Language, if they know that, or maybe in writing, if they only know a written language. People with no language skills apparently think in pictures, which does greatly limit their ability to think about anything abstract. StuRat 10:24, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict)If they learned it during the critical childhood period, they think and dream in sign language. WP's article on language acquisition mentions an example illustrating how natural sign language is to human beings lacking the sense of hearing.---Sluzzelin 10:28, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Surely thought is much more to do with imagination than language. Although language helps to refine certain specific types of thought process, thoughts would be very very slow if they had to be articulated as words.--Shantavira 11:10, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

But we all have "inner monologues", which (certainly for myself) often manifests itself in a kind of "voice" that kind of "speaks" in English. Certainly, when I am reading a book I can frequently almost hear myself reading along, with my voice, in English. If this is the common experience of those of us who can hear, what do deaf people "read along" in? Batmanand | Talk 11:18, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Exactly so! That's just what I'm asking! Like if I was going to be making a cake (for example) I'd be thinking in my head "how many eggs? Ok 6. Damn! Bit of eggshell fell in! I'll get a spoon. There's no clean ones. Why is there never any clean spoons..." etc. And I'm thinking particularly with a young child. Would that make it hard for the child plan ahead etc? To scheme and judge things? It's a very intersting concept IMO! --Fir0002 11:58, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Well as long as the deaf person can read, then they have the vocabulary they need.--Shantavira 12:12, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Sign languages have their own vocabulary, grammar and their own writing systems. They don't always correspond closely to English or any other spoken language. Because of this, not all deaf people find written English (or any other spoken language) easy to read. But their cognition is linked to their native (sign) language in a similar way that a hearing person's cognition is linked to his/her native language.---Sluzzelin 12:25, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

• People usually think in images (visually), I don't see why deaf people couldn't. When language is involved, I guess they'd think in writing or sign language. - Mgm|^(talk) 12:24, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

You have never thought without words? When I read or count, and some other activities, I can do so without "an inner voice." Some people think in numbers, or shapes. I always think it would be interesting to think in music. That would be a fun day. "Day of Mac, in C minor." — [Mac Davis] (talk) (Desk|Help me improve)

My condolences, Mac. C minor is too heavy and doom-laden a key to have a whole day in. Why not modulate your day into E flat major, now that's something worth celebrating! JackofOz 20:43, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Linguist Steven Pinker says we don't think in English or French or German but in "mentalese." We "translate" from mentalese to English or American Sign Language or whatever when we want to say something. This is why, in Pinker's view, our thoughts do not depend on the language we use with others; thus, Newspeak wouldn't work. -- Mwalcoff 23:00, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I think that makes sense, and that you have to translate the mentalese inte more concrete matters such as language, images, music etc. to be able to grasp it. 惑乱 分からん 00:06, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Note there's an 'image' in 'imagine'. Fir0002, surely you can picture what's in your mind? :) I am constantly surprised by how even scientists think that thought depends on language. I suppose it's a way to believe that humans are unique in that we can think, because we have language. But then you'd have to assume other animals don't have language, which they do. Language is symbolism. It doesn't matter much what kind of symbols are used. Then again, I can imagine that people who have a good understanding of mathematics will have a different view on life. But can one understand mathematics without the written symbolism we're used to? Or does the language(s) we speak influence the way we think? But then the question is which is better and in which sense? Are, say, Chinese better at certain things and wors at others because of the language they speak? And are multilinguists more inteligent? (Now there's something I'm particularly interrested in.) DirkvdM 06:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes I can certainly imagine when I think ;-). But particularly when I'm planning something I'll have a litte inner voice talking my thoughts aloud. See I would think without being able to go through something in my head I wouldn't be able to think in the future. Now for a young child who hasn't comprehensively learned sign language, would that make them more "on the spot" thinkers - unable to plan? --Fir0002 10:39, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Chinese kids are better at arithmetics than French children, because the words for the numbers are closer to the decimal system's logic in Chinese than they are in French which has words such as 'four-twenties-ten-nine' for 99.----84.75.129.157 09:21, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

citation needed 惑乱 分からん 15:10, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Quattre vingt dix neuf. And you may quote me on that. DirkvdM 04:12, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I know quite well how the French count, what was suspicious was that their numerical system is the same decimal-based Roman numbers the rest of the world is using, and it doesn't have any direct connection to the French words for certain numbers. There shouldn't be any inherent difficulty or incongruence between Roman numbers and arithmetics. 惑乱 分からん 14:27, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Well there is emerging evidence that incidence of dyslexia is correlated to the native language of the sufferer, with native English speakers the most heavily represented. The data isn't complete, nor has it been analysed fully, but some interpretations include the notion that language affects brain development, or that modern high rates of dyslexia are correlated to new methods of teaching English (whole language learning, anybody?). Anchoress 18:21, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Dyslexic people also seem to be risktakers, ending up either rich or in prison. Now if we look at the US .... DirkvdM 04:12, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Behaviorists discounted the importance of thought. Behavior was supposed to be the result of conditioned responses. "Thought" was just small movements of the vocal apparatus. Supposedly someone did the "crucial experiment" of having curare administered so he couldn't move a muscle, and being given artificial respiration until the drug wore off, and found he could still think while completely paralyzed. Yet there is truth to it: I certainly engage in internal speech. That there is a motor component to it is shown by my experience that when thinking of a song, and being careful to not subvocalize the melody, a richness of imagined tone is lost. Electromyography experiments back this up. Edison 17:23, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I have a related question...is a room full of deaf people signing to each other "noisy"? Adam Bishop 17:55, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

To a deaf person, I wouldn't be surprised if it was referred to that way. I heard that a deaf with shaky fingers was "stammering", for instance... 惑乱 分からん 18:19, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Is speech in sign language processed in the same way as gestures, or as speech in spoken language? (if you know what I mean) Linguofreak 03:31, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

If I understand you correctly, different from both, I'd guess. Probably processed as sign language. 惑乱 分からん 14:29, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

This certainly has made a great conversation. But tell me - does anyone know a born-deaf person who can put their perspective on this? --Fir0002 10:39, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Yahoo! users

How many users are there in the Yahoo! network? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.50.16.64 (talk • contribs)

I think the public figures are around 200 million registered users and a much larger number of users. See this estimate for an example. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 12:59, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Anyway, why are you asking this question at the language reference desk? Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 13:34, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Why are you asking this at Wikipedia. Surely Yahoo! has the better info about their own business. - Mgm|^(talk) 09:17, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

C. G. Jung's anagram

I have read several analyses on C. G. Jung's famous anagram (all of them in German, e.g. this site), but I couldn't find any small selection of actual, heuristically understandable suggestions. The anagram can be found at the end of Jung's Septem Sermones Ad Mortuos and goes: ANAGRAMMA: NAHTRIHECCUNDE GAHINNEVERAHTUNIN ZEHGESSURKLACH ZUNNUS. Does anyone know of any 'good' (as in close to evident) suggested solutions out there? (I posted the same question on the German Wikipedia reference page, but am asking it here too, since many people with good answers read this page). Thanks. Pat83.78.191.142 14:07, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Sandhi

Hi. How is Sandhi pronounced? (in IPA if possible). Its spelling is ambiguous in English. --Estrellador* 16:55, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

From what I can gather from our wonderful Sanskrit article, /sändʰi/. I think. -- the GREAT Gavini 17:53, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Unless you're speaking English, in which case it's /ˈsʌndi/ or /ˈsændi/. --Ptcamn 20:48, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks very much. Better add those to the article. --Estrellador* 20:08, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Phrase

Where does the phrase "let's blow this joint" come from? For that matter, where to the terms "blow" (meaning leave) and "joint" (meaning building) themselves come from? Black Carrot 21:25, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

The Oxford English Dictionary says only that both terms are American slang. The first quotation the OED has for joint used in this sense is from 1821, and the first occurance it lists of blow in this context is in the phrase blew the joint, from 1902. I suppose the phrase was coined in America sometime in the 19th century, but I don't know any other details. Philbert^2.71828 22:21, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Was "joint" used as a slang term for marijuana in the 19th century? I've always extrapolated the meaning of "let's blow this joint" when used to mean "let's leave here" to have originally meant "let's [finish] this cigaweed [so we can leave this place]", though I'm not sure if anyone would have said/meant that more than a hundred years ago.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  01:37, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Joint isn't quoted in the OED as referring to marijuana until sometime in the mid 20th century. I can't quite tell from the dictionary entry, but the first quote using joint to mean a marijuana cigarette is either from 1967 or 1952. In either case, it looks like blow this joint would not have been interpreted to refer to marijuana in the 19th century. Philbert^2.71828 01:51, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I would assume that joint in this term refers to the American slang for a place where something illegal is going on (originally an Opium den, apparently); the OED refers to an 1821 use of the term "I slipt the joint", and this seems to be intimately related.Ziggurat 04:29, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Ida & Shushumna in Devanigari

I've asked the question before but I lost the answer . How are these words written in devanigari ( they are nadis in yoga ) ? Hhnnrr 22:45, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

• For ida, see Wikipedia:Reference desk archive/Language/2006 August 21#Devanagari ( Sanskrit ). For shushumna, I don't remember the question having been asked.  --Lambiam^Talk 06:39, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually I only asked about " Ida " , " Shushumna is new question . ( By the way , how did you find the link above ? ) Hhnnrr 08:23, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

The Google search term [ida devanagari "reference desk" languages site:en.wikipedia.org] will do the job. --Lambiam^Talk 14:51, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

simple subject vs. complete subject

I feel like a complete idiot. My son is doing some homework (he's in the third grade) and has to decipher between a "simple subject" and "complete subject". I consider myself somewhat intelligent. Boy, I have been humbled.

Help. --Kdsoell 22:47, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

---

Let's break it down:

A simple sentance with only a simple subject and simple predicate would be as follows.

She is.

The simple subject is "She" and the simple predicate is "is." Let's make a more complex sentance:

Jane was happily striding.

The simple subject would be "Jane," and the simple predicate would be "was striding." Happily is left out because it describes the manner in which she was acting.

The complex subject would be "Jane," and the complex predicate would be "was happily striding."

Think of the subject as a noun, and the predicate as the verb. The complexity arises when you decide to add things that describe the verb and noun. Such s:

The incompetent pilot was shot down over Czechoslovakia.

The complex subject is "The imcompetent pilot" and the complex predicate is the rest. The simple subject and predicate are only "pilot," and "was shot down."

Ka-peesh? — [Mac Davis] (talk) (Desk|Help me improve)

Your explanation makes some sort of sense, but I do not recall having met the terms in any of the many theories of grammar I have read about. Are they terms that somebody somewhere has defined, or are you guessing them? ColinFine 22:47, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

---

September 12

West Indian "benna"

In Jamaica Kincaid's short-short story "Girl," there are a couple of references to singing "benna" in Sunday school; what is "benna?"

It's a style of music popular in certain parts of the Caribbean from around 1850 to 1950 (I think). It derives mainly from West African music, and is somewhat similar to calypso music. The topics of the songs were often "inappropriate" — not things that would be approved of in a religious context, hence the reference in the story you mention. Benna is briefly mentioned in the Music of Antigua and Barbuda article, but we don't seem to have an article on it (Benna is an article on a town in Norway). -- Vardion 05:28, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

He saw his butt/ass

movd from Misc desk:

Does this phrase exist in US? If so what does it mean? (could also be ass instead of butt)--Light current 03:05, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

What is the context? "Saw" as in the past tense of "to see" or "Saw" as in the break up of materials into smaller parts by use of a tool making a back and forth motion? Dismas|^(talk) 03:15, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

As in 'He saw his butt/ass when I told him'--Light current 03:21, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Hmm... Not sure. I do know that there's a phrase in the South that is similar though. "He was showing his ass" means that he was being cocky and showing off. I was really confused the first time I heard that one, having not lived in the South for very long. Dismas|^(talk) 03:42, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Over here (UK) with proper word substitution, I think it means 'got very annoyed'. But I want to know the origin.--Light current 03:47, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I think Im going to move this to language desk.Done--Light current 03:54, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I was wondering what the hell were you talking about. Not in the US. If you said that it would mean a gay guy like another guy's ass, or perhaps somebody looked at their own arse? — [Mac Davis] (talk) (Desk|Help me improve)

Nothing to do with gays--Light current 05:48, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

In the UK, it's usually "arse", not "ass" (and I'd also think "bum", not "butt")... 惑乱 分からん 09:57, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I know that! I was Americanising it for the benefit of our transatlantic friends!--Light current 10:00, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Agreed re arse, but the only sense it makes to this Englishman is that someone was using a mirror. --Dweller 20:35, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

You are from the south - yes? I think now this may be a north of England phrase--Light current 21:01, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

In Spanish spoken in Spain, "partirse el culo" (to split your ass) means to laugh hard. You could use a saw for that, couldn't you? :-) It might be a text written by a Spaniard translating verbatim just trying to be funny. Is that possible from the context?

No Im sure it is not. I have heard people say this phrase in English.--Light current 21:01, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

OK. Heres an example of usage of the phrase. [8] Near the bottom (no pun) of the post.--Light current 21:32, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

xxooxx

Could anyone tell me the meaning of xxooxx? Thanks. 147.8.117.66 05:00, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Can you give us some context?--Light current 05:08, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

It can mean "hugs and kisses", but is more often written with them alternating one at a time. StuRat 05:17, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Probably either kises, or kisses and hugs. I think I saw that in front of a strip club in Australia though. Quadruple X (happens to be an exaggeration of the already exaggerated XXX, originally "X") and boobies in between? — [Mac Davis] (talk) (Desk|Help me improve)

So naughts and crosses is two hugs and one kiss? DirkvdM 06:17, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

It could also mean that a girl with round glasses and braids à la Pippi Longstocking is looking at you. ;) --RiseRover|^talk 17:51, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

"A la Pippi"? So...nine-years-old? That's quite sick. -- the GREAT Gavini 19:23, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

eh? What's sick about that? --Dweller 20:33, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

What are you thinking? — [Mac Davis] (talk) (Desk|Help me improve)

Is it that sick anyway? As long as you don't do anything, and can controll yourself, it is fine. Nay? To each man his own thoughts!— [Mac Davis] (talk) (Desk|Help me improve)

The girl is looking at you. And if she's Pippi Långstrump don't be surprised she's staring at you. DirkvdM 04:32, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't see anything "sick" about that. — [Mac Davis] (talk) (Desk|Help me improve)

Is this Latin phrase correct?

I have doubts about the correctness of this Latin phrase, but as I have only vague memories of the language, I want to ask for other opinions.

cadaver sanguisugus (it's supposed to mean "blood-sucking corpse)

"Cadaver" is supposed to be neuter ([9]). Shouldn't the adjective be "sanguisugum" then? My Latin grammar mentions no possibility of an adjective having the ending "-us" and keeping it in the neuter.

Thoughts? Thanks, --194.145.161.227 10:07, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I just found the neuter form sanguisugum in the Latin name of a certain sea snail, "vexillum sanguisugum" - blood-sucking mitre ([10]). Now I'm practically sure that "cadaver sanguisugus" is wrong. Still, comments are welcome. --194.145.161.227 12:15, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

The adjective would have to be neuter, yes. Lewis and Short (the dictionary in your link) has "sanguisuga" as the name of a kind of leech, but that's a feminine noun. I guess you could turn that into an adjective, but another adjective form is "sanguisugens" (from which we have "sanguisugent" in English). Adam Bishop 14:07, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

meaning of a phrase

What does the phrase "Suffer fools gladly mean and in what context was it first used?"

Well, it's usually "(insert name) doesn't suffer fools gladly" meaning they don't react well to people they think are acting in a foolish way. As to the original context, I leave that to the next person. Skittle 11:19, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

The next person says it's from 2 Corinthians 9:19 "For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise"--Shantavira 12:07, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Hebrew Language

How would i say the following statements in Hebrew:

Jesus is Lord

Jesus my Saviour

Thank you

Nathan

You probably wouldn't say those in Hebrew, would you ? StuRat 14:39, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd translate "My Lord" and "My Saviour" respectively as "adoni" and "yeshuati". So, if (for some bizarre reason) I wanted to say "Snoopy is my saviour", I'd say "Snoopy hoo yeshuati". --Dweller 14:46, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

And a literal translation? 惑乱 分からん 14:49, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Of what? --Dweller 15:03, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

"Jesus is Lord", I guess "Jesus is my saviour" would be "Jesus hoo yeshuati"? 惑乱 分からん 15:08, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, weird enough, but according to the articles on yeshu and yeshua, neither Yeshu (the standard name of Jesus in Hebrew), nor Jehoshua (the supposed original form of the name) are believed to be related to "yeshua" ("salvation"). It seems convincing. --194.145.161.227 16:58, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like a good question to direct to Jews for Jesus. They refer to Jesus as "Y'shua." Edison 17:29, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Are you really sure about that Dweller? All the dictionaries I've checked translate saviour into either "moshiach" or "goel". Loomis 23:08, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I think you're mostly right, Loomis. ישועה (yeshuah) means 'salvation' (I suspect it's a form of the pa'ul, which functions as a passive participle: 'which is saved'). 'Saviour' needs an active participle; but the form you are looking for is מושיע (moshiya'). You seem to have confused this with משיח (mashiyach) - 'messiah' (which fundamentally means 'anointed', as does the Greek translation χριστος (khristos)). גואל (go'el) is also an active participle, but means rather 'redeemer' than 'saviour'. ColinFine

Translation from Spanish to English

The Spanish word Manera. Please give translation in English. Thank you to all who answer.

Generally "manner", or "way". -- the GREAT Gavini 18:54, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Just for your information, Frank Sinatra's song called "My way" is called "A mi manera" in Spanish. Schynd 0:03, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

September 13

Can "ones" be used as a possessive pronoun?

I don't mean in the case of things like "One must do one's duty," but for things like "A person must do ones duty," that is, referring back to a noun other than "one." I have never heard such a usage and it strikes me as very ungrammatical, but an editor on my talk page said that "ones" (without apostrophe) is a gender-neutral alternative to "his" in such situations that "has a long history as part of English usage." Is this correct? -Elmer Clark 00:09, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

No. It would be more correct to use "their" in that case, and I'm sure we all know how incorrect some people think that is :) Adam Bishop 00:12, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Why let such trifle matters as grammar stand in the way of overthrowing the prevalent imperialism of gender normativism? =S 惑乱 分からん 00:15, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm in favor of "their" as a singular possessive pronoun, but not everyone agrees. In the example you give, the safest construction would be, "A person must do his or her duty." It's clunky but gender neutral and unobjectionable. "A person must do ones duty" misses a vital apostrophe and looks nonstandard to me. Durova 02:26, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I also agree with "their" as a singular possessive pronoun. You can't use "one's" here, but wherever you do use "one's" as a possessive pronoun, it needs an apostrophe. "Ones" without an apostrophe is a plural noun ("I like these ones, but not those ones"). JackofOz 02:35, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I think the best correction is "People must do their duties". If you're generalizing people anyway, why make it a singular? I am very much against the user of "their" as a singular possessive, but I'm also against the idea of changing a noun for an improper pronoun - the pronoun of "person" is "him", not "one". "One" is a specific person, even if it's a general term. I guess it's hard to explain, but I don't think you can use "a person" and "one" interchangeably. —Keakealani 02:39, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I totally agree with the last post. It's never impossible to rewrite the sentence so that "their" as a singular and "his or her" are avoided. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 07:24, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

But in the above case, "People must do their duties" could be interpreted as meaning that each person had multiple separate duties, as opposed to just one singular duty. "A person must do their duty" (or, "People must do their duty") have the advantage of being unambiguous, whatever you think about singular "they". EdC 12:54, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Idiom definition

Hi, In my dictionary, one of the senses for the word 'idiom' is defined as "...expression that is peculiar to itself either grammatically (as no, it wasn't me) or in having a meaning that cannot be derived from the conjoined meaning of its elements..." What I can't figure out is what makes "no, it wasn't me" an idiom. How is it grammatically peculiar to itself? This is probably a stupid question and the answer is probably ridiculously obvious, but I have thought about it and just don't see it. So, can someone please help me out? Thanks for your time.

I can't be sure what the author was thinking, but perhaps it is this. In many languages that have cases, in an identity-asserting sentence like "A is B", both A and B are in the nominative case. This is so in Latin, which was historically seen as the shining example of how a non-barbaric language's grammar ought to be. But in English, you say "It is me", where "me" is in some objective case. As this does not fit the Latin model, it is "odd". A possible other aspect viewed as odd is the order of the two parts. In German, you'd say, literally translated: "I am it". English follows the French model here. --Lambiam^Talk 04:03, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

To clarify: "It wasn't me" is not grammatically peculiar, but the dictionary writer may have thought it was. --Ptcamn 04:06, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

The theory about the other languages is a good idea, but I left out part of the definion, which specifies that it is an expression in the usage of a language that is peculiar to itself.

law question

I asked this at the other place as well.

You're a lwayer and in court and you have a prosecution case your proesucting and you cna't raise the convictions what the criminal your proseduting has had in the past, unless teh defense bring it up. What is this callled? Is it latin or rench?

Plural form of "ozone"

Is there a plural form of the word "ozone"? If so, what is it?

Ozone is a mass noun. — Dunc|☺ 15:22, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

...therefore there isn't a regular plural form. -- the GREAT Gavini 15:46, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Old English Translation

My daughter, only 11, has homework to translate 8 word into old english. First of all we are not sure if it is old or Middle english the teacher is after...but also...we cannot find anywhere on the internet to do this....the words are simple...like school, magazine (or equivalient), pyjamas..etc...please help....I told her I would find a link, but she muist do the work heself as she spent an hour search (as I have as well)...Thanks!!!

I don't understand this homework. You could check out Old English language, slthough my impression is that she's supposed to realize for himself that these are more modern loanwords for concepts which Old English lacked... =S Anyway, please return here when the homework is finished and the teacher has explained the point behind it. Which words are you supposed to translate? 惑乱 分からん 18:01, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

The word school is very old, and the OED gives the Old English as scól. Magazine is from Old French magazin and pajamas is from the Persian and Urdu paë (paÿ) jamah and only entered the English language in the 19th century.--Shantavira 18:27, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

For the record, "magazine" (i.e. of paper) is early 18th century. -- the GREAT Gavini 18:32, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

(after edit conflict) *winces* Harsh homework! If it's Old English (Anglo-Saxon), this is quite useful. But pyjamas? And magazine? I'd like to know what the teacher who set the homework was thinking... -- the GREAT Gavini 18:30, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

That's why I thought the homework really was about learning loanwords. I have trouble finding a reasonable matter for giving such a task to normal 11 year-olds. 惑乱 分からん 19:15, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Spanish question

what is ` my name is laura ` in spanish?

Either (literally) "Mi nombre es Laura" (mih NOM-breh ess) or more commonly "Me llamo Laura" (meh YAAH-moh), (literally "I call myself...") 惑乱 分からん 19:13, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

crossword help

could u help with these clues

conduct hostilities(4,3)

nuclear weapon (_-bomb)

obscure sinister(4)

pink wading bird (8)

(user of ) standard textbook (6)

amble (6)

enthusiastic (5)

relating to holtilities (7)

give the final blow (to keep the pot warm ) (3,3,3,2,2)

fruit of the may tree 93)

sailing boat (4)starts with y

victor of agincourt (i want to know if it is henry the fifth ???)

rush voilently (6)

sharer of accomodation (8)

mischievous spirit (9)

very low priced (4-5)

borders' town with abbey (8)

unexceptional (6)

vision (5)

remind (with elbow or stick)(4)

fate -auction item (3)

sorry for the long list seems like im no good at crosswords ,but i love doing tem even if u guys solve it way before me , thanx in advanceMightright 19:25, 13 September 2006 (UTC)