Talk:New York City English

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Lexicon

I don't know why you think "stoop" is a New York only word. It has certainly been in use in Kansas City ever since i was a child. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.136.147.139 (talk) 14:12, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

For a variety of reasons:

• Some visitors/transplants from outside the region claim never to have heard it before,
• It's widely believed to have originated from the Dutch word for "step", consistent with the city's founders, and
• it was used in the area only for a long time before spreading out to the rest of the country. Daniel Case (talk) 15:42, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Circular reference

"such as the low back chain shift and the short-A split (see below)" and later below "Labov has pointed out that the short-A split is found in southern England as mentioned above."... I keep seeing "above" and "below" back and forth over and over for hours on end. and don't know what this is talking about. 207.239.94.2 (talk) 19:14, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

why not fix it?mnewmanqc (talk) 02:23, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Good article

Very informative. Nguyễn Quốc Việt (talk) 04:12, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Pronunciation of horrible and forest

I am from Central Jersey. I myself pronounce the o in horrible and forest like the o in port, and I hear others pronounce the o in the two words similarly. However, people with heavy New York accents will pronounce the letter like a in part. And there are New Jerseyans who will pronounce the o this way. So, I feel how horrible tends to be pronounced in New Jersey should be noted. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.53.226.245 (talk) 22:01, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

This was prior to the expansion of the New Jersey talk page. Therefore, there would no longer be a need to address how the vowel is pronounced in New Jersey on this page. Over and out. (My IP address changed for whatever reason. This is the same person speaking.)74.102.216.186 (talk) 00:18, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Fronted aʊ

I am only confused because it would seem, based on transcription, that the nucleus of the diphthong aʊ is the vowel a, which is a front vowel already. Note that I myself pronounce this as a front vowel. So, I humbly ask that someone explain how this diphthong is pronounced in other areas of the country. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.53.226.245 (talk) 15:57, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

The symbol [a] technically represents a front vowel in the IPA, but (1) it's not very front, compared to other front vowels; and (2) since IPA doesn't have a symbol to represent a low central vowel, [a] is often used for that purpose too. So in area of the country where /aʊ/ isn't fronted, its nucleus is a low central [a]; in New York and other regions where /aʊ/ is fronted, it's a low front-ish [a], or something even further front such as [æ]. AJD (talk) 18:50, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

Thank you, sir/ma'am. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.102.218.18 (talk) 23:54, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

In NYCE it's typically fronted [æʊ]. I'll have to fix that too with the citations. mnewmanqc (talk) 01:59, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

Backed aɪ

Currently, the article says that the New York accent features a backed aɪ. However, when I hear a backed /aɪ/, I think specifically of a Staten Island accent, not a generic New York accent. So, in the other boros of New York, is the backed /aɪ/ still used as the local accent? If anyone can clear me up, that would be helpful. Thank you.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.102.218.18 (talk) 03:10, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

There's no know variation in phonology around the different boroughs despite the widespread belief that there's a Brooklyn accent, Queens accent, SI accent etc. No one has ever demonstrated what any differences might consist of or even that it's possible to detect which borough someone's from. That said, the notion of backed /aɪ/, presumably [ɑɪ], is an oversimplification, which I will fix and with proper citations. The way it works is that [aɪ] appears before voiceless obstruents and [ɑɪ] appears elsewhere. It's similar to Canadian raising. Thus high is [hɑɪ] but height is [haɪt]. Give me a day or two to fix that. Labov actually has that wrong. mnewmanqc (talk) 01:57, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

Unfortunately, sir/ma'am, I really need somebody from New York, who knows the accent well enough to make that call. I do see your good intentions of answering my question. However, the real problem is that the variation between the boroughs is not a sociolinguistic one, but an analytic one. For an example, I have some relatives from Staten Island who almost always pronounce aɪ as ɑɪ. However, Bugs Bunny, who is supposed to be from Brooklyn, hardly ever pronounces aɪ as ɑɪ. All said, this is not a bust on you at all. And I do thank you, sir/ma'am, nonetheless for your participation in this discussion. 74.102.216.186 (talk) 01:56, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

I take that back. Now knowing you do research, you might be the go-to man, sir.74.102.216.186 (talk) 01:39, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

@Mnewmanqc: By accident, I found the source you were looking for. [1] pg. 389.LakeKayak (talk) 22:13, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

right. The issue with PRICE backing is that Labov got it wrong. As pointed out by phonologist Jonathan Kaye cited in my book, there is no backing when the diphthong is followed by a voiceless obstruent. This is related to what's called Canadian Raising. mnewmanqc (talk) 02:49, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Father-bother merger

Currently, on this page, it reads that the vowels in father and bother are particularly merged. However, on "Phonological history of English low back vowels," it says that the father-bother merger did not reach New York English. How we tend to speak around here, the two vowels are not merged. Father is pronounced as [fɒðɝ], and bother is pronounced as [bäðɝ]. It is very unlikely that the two were once merged in New York English only to be split up back into their original classes, especially when the rest of the country tends to merge these two vowels. Therefore, it is safe to say that the merger never occurred in New York English in the first. Therefore, I am going to change that line. I can neither support nor refute the idea of a diphthong [ɑə] or [ɒə] occurring before certain consonants. As I live in Central Jersey, there are some features of this dialect that I don't have. So although I don't have such feature, it still may occur in some speakers who reside within the city itself. Over and out.74.102.216.186 (talk) 02:18, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

As you live in Central Jersey, how you speak "around here" isn't directly relevant for an article on New York City, and moreover personal experience is not taken as more compelling than scholarly literature in Wikipedia. However, I agree with you that it's troubling that some articles say NYC English is father-bother–merged and some say it's not. The heading "father-bother variability" is probably most accurate—some people are merged but a few maintain some distinction—but the paragraph following it doesn't really support that. I'll page Mnewmanqc on this, since I know he's done research on this merger in New York. AJD (talk) 03:10, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

AJD is right. There is an ongoing merger and lots of variability. The ANAE has it as unmerged, although with some discussion of variability. I also found variability in my small sample. However, most recent (post 1990) research just assumed that the vowels were merged despite the fact that prior literature mentions three back vowels: LOT, PALM, and THOUGHT. I'll look at the main article and fix it there with appropriate citations. Thanks for bringing this up. mnewmanqc (talk) 17:36, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

Back vowel chain shift

This bullet point seemed inaccurate and even slapped on. It seemed that way the chain shift was not described on any other page. So, I have removed this bullet point. For my only comment, the vowel in cart is not pronounced like the vowel in caught. What is pronounced like the vowel in caught is the vowel in court. Over and out.74.102.216.186 (talk) 02:38, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

Just because something isn't mentioned on other pages doesn't mean it's inaccurate here, especially when it's supported with references to scholarly literature. Also, it doesn't say that cart in NYC is pronounced the same as caught in NYC; it says thaty cart in NYC is the same as caught in Boston, which is true. AJD (talk) 03:06, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

I have a doubt that such a feature exists in New York, and at times there are errors in scholarly literature. However, Mnewmanqc usually can say when errors occur in scholarly literature in New York English. Therefore, I think I best ask him, just so that I personally know. However, either way, it seems best that I leave that section of the article alone. And I thank you, sir, for you participation in this discussion. 74.102.216.186 (talk) 01:58, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

Alright, it seems I lost the debate. I found evidence supporting the Back Vowel Chain Shift. However, if this is a genuine characteristic, shouldn't it have its own page or at least a section on a page with other mergers? Over and out.74.102.216.186 (talk) 03:27, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

I have three things more to say.

1. It seems like this shift only occurs in the city. As far as I can recall, I myself have never really heard born pronounced [bʊən]. I typically hear born pronounced as [bɔɹn].
2. I finally can explain why I was confused when I read in the article that cart in New York sounds similar to General American caught. Unfortunately, living in Central Jersey, there are a few New York features that I don't have, and that people around tend not to have. I pronounce the vowel in caught as traditional [ɔ]. Simply, I completely forgot that it is shifted to [oə] or [ɔə] in New York.
3. The name "Back Vowel Chain Shift in Transition" probably seems a little better. Already mentioned in the section, the chain shift is in transition. Therefore, there would be nothing wrong with that name per se. However, that is only my opinion. I am going to make this change. However, if anyone so wishes to undo this edit, I do respect that you reserve the right to do so. Over and out.74.102.216.186 (talk) 04:01, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

While making the edit, I realized that the name of the section was "Back vowel chain shift before r." The new name of the section is "Back vowel chain shift before r in transition." Also, I added "shore" and "sure" as example for the two vowel classes, for a small reason. Not everybody will know the difference between the vowel in bore and boor or Tory and tour. In my experience, I never even heard of a difference before. However, typically even if you don't make the distinction yourself between shore and sure, you probably will know what the distinction would be. Growing up, I would have debates with my mother on how the word sure was pronounced. Over and out.74.102.216.186 (talk) 04:15, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Rhoticity in New York

Alright, I have a slight problem with one line: "Items with /ɔɪ/ may occur with an r-colored vowel (e.g., /ˈtʰɝlət/ toilet), apparently as a result of hypercorrection. Younger New Yorkers (born since about 1950) are likely to use a rhotic [əɹ~ɜɹ] (like in General American) for the diaphoneme /ɜːr/ (as in bird), even if they use non-rhotic pronunciations of beard, bared, bard, board, boor, and butter."

• First, could somebody actually tell me beyond the shadow of a doubt that hypercorrection of /ɔɪ/ actually occurs in New York? It doesn't sound like New York at all.
• Secondly, could somebody actually tell me beyond the shadow of a doubt that bird is really pronounced as [bəɹd~bɜɹd] in New York?

I have my doubts. I may have come to accept that linking and intrusive r exists in New York, but I cannot wrap my head around hypercorrection of /ɔɪ/ or the lacking of r dropping in bird. I am begging for someone to respond. Thank you. 74.102.216.186 (talk) 00:49, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

I have figured out what my issue was. I was able to access one of Labov's books through Google Books. Labov said, "This record of the repaid extinction of the major NYC stereotype is certainly accurate as far as it goes: r-less /əy/^{[See note]} has disappeared. Yet close listening to New Yorkers over the years has convinced me that it lingers on in a modified form. Many New Yorkers today can be heard to use a palatalized form of a well contracted, mid-central [r] in first and work" .

Note: Labov transcribed the sound in a few different ways all referring to the same sound [ɜɪ].

So, that is where my doubt came from. I have been hearing a New York accent long enough to pick up some alteration to words "bird" and "first," but I misidentify the alteration. So, I am going to add the above quote in. As my full understanding of the quote is vague, I am in no position to explain on the article myself. Anybody else is free to do that.74.102.216.186 (talk) 01:53, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

I found cases of the non-rhotic NURSE vowel (to use Wells's key word designation) in one young woman from Howard Beach; so it's not extinct. I found none of the supposed hypercorrection of /ɔɪ/ (i.e., toilet to terlet).However, I think it may appear in Carrol Conner's rendition of Archie Bunker. Of course, that's performance speech. I've heard anecdotal reports of it too. Labov believes, however, it's a myth (I can't remember where he said that). As for his rhotic palatalization, I'm not sure what he means by that frankly. I discuss this in my book New York City English.

I do wish to thank you personally, sir. I myself have had doubts on the extinction of the non-rhotic NURSE vowel and the hypercorrection of [ɔɪ]. However, I stood alone for sometime with no "scholarly literature" to support my side. Now, I might be able to clarify what could have been meant by rhotic palatalization, but it may or may not occur in New York. Under the palatalization page, it says palatalization of a vowel result in a front vowel. So possibly he meant that [ɜɪ] was fronted to maybe [ɛɪ]. However, the chances that I am misunderstanding him are high. And it is possible that this is not how the sound is pronounced in New York. But, nonetheless, I do thank you, sir, for your response when I needed it the most.74.102.216.186 (talk) 04:29, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

So I thiiink what Labov means by rhotic palatalization is in effect a NURSE vowel with a lower F1 than in other dialects. AJD (talk) 04:55, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

I will admit, sir. It took me some time to figure out what F1 was. The page "Vowel" described it to mean the first formant, or the inverse of height. So, I really had problems figuring out what a formant was. But anyway, according to "Vowel," a lower F1 results in a higher vowel. So, to clarify my understanding, you're saying that Labov probably means by rhotic palatalization that the /ɝ/ class is slightly raised compared to other dialects.74.102.216.186 (talk) 02:34, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Thanks to AJD, I think I have a clear understand of what is meant by rhotic palatalization. Thank you, sir.

So, therefore, I am considering adding an explanation to the article of what is meant by rhotic palatalization. Would anybody care whatsoever if I did so? If so, you may speak now. Thank you.74.102.216.186 (talk) 22:47, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

As it seems nobody has an opinion, I am going to add in the explanation. Thank you. (f.k.a 74.102.216.186) LakeKayak (talk) 01:51, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

Request for removal: hypercorrection of /ɔɪ/ to [ɝ]

Currently, the article says that, "Items with /ɔɪ/ may occur with an r-colored vowel (e.g., /ˈtʰɝlət/ toilet), apparently as a result of hypercorrection," sourced by Matthew Gordon. However, if we are going to make such a claim, I would rather have certainty. And there seems to be a debate on whether or not such does occur. I know user mnewmanqc has done some research on the coil–curl merger and the loss of it. However, he says he could not find any case of hypercorrection of the /ɔɪ/ class to [ɝ]. Therefore, would anybody object to removing the line? If so, I just wish to hear your side. Thank you.LakeKayak (talk) 04:15, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

These are good points. It seems best to me to leave the claim and add the lack of certainty about it with sources in Gordon and then Newman (2014). That would provide the best overall coverage. mnewmanqc (talk) 10:47, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

@Mnewmanqc: As I don't have access to either source, I would not be able to do that myself. Do you, sir, have access to either source? If so, perhaps you could do the job.LakeKayak (talk) 18:54, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

I actually did know a woman who said, "terlet." Also, in one of her films, Mae West said, "You've got a pernt there." Kostaki mou (talk) 00:46, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

@Kostaki mou: The Mae West example would probably consider performance speech, and it may have been used only for effect. However, as for the analysis of your first example, used in real life, I can say that means, the hypercorrection probably does happen, but it is rather rare. Anyway, I thank you for your participation in this discussion.LakeKayak (talk) 21:40, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

"Only two of his 51 speakers under age 20 used the form as compared with those over age 50 of whom 23 out of 30 used the r-ful form."

Was "r-ful" meant to be "r-less?" I am asking because I have no clue.LakeKayak (talk) 16:23, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

Reading the source, it looks like "r-ful" was meant to be "r-less." I am going to fix it.LakeKayak (talk) 20:21, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

Back Vowel Chain Shift(2)

I made one change to this section. Although I did leave an edit summary, I may have to show how I "connected the dots," per se. Therefore, I have created this section of the talk page to explain myself in the event that I have confused anyone. To start, Mnewmanqc has done a little research on this. From what he found, the vowel in cart in New York English has an F1 value of approximately 700 Hertz. However, according to the formant page, the vowel in caught in General American, represented as [ɔː] typically has an F1 value of approximately 500 Hertz. Therefore, I have removed the following line from the article:

The result of the shift is that cart in New York sounds similar to cot/caught in Boston or caught in General American, with its round-lipped vowel.

If anybody objects, I wish to hear your side. Thank you.LakeKayak (talk) 00:09, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

@LakeKayak: Where are you getting this specific data? Wolfdog (talk) 14:06, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

https://www.academia.edu/17279625/LOTs_of_THOUGHTs_about_the_endangered_PALMs_of_New_York page 3.LakeKayak (talk) 14:17, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

Trump and NYC English

I mostly hear NYC English when I hear Trump talk, altho I am not a linguistics expert. Variations may be due to his elite social context and elite private school and high-status university upbringing.Bellagio99 (talk) 20:49, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

The NYCE features of his accent are highly inconsistent, so he shouldn't be listed as a representative speaker of the accent. (In no way am I saying that his vocal style is not unique.) His GOAT vowel is often centralized, his THOUGHT vowel often lowered, and he even seems to have certain features all of his own (he pronounces "industry" with the second syllable stressed or perhaps uses the STRUT vowel in that word, he voices some voiceless consonants, etc.) In fact, see the comments about him under the cot-caught merger bullet. Wolfdog (talk) 21:46, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

Features like the centralization of the "goat vowel," just like the absence or presence of dental fricatives, the degree to which the "thought" vowel is raised, all of these features vary based on class and ethnicity. Idiosyncrasies, like his pronunciation of "industry," none of this makes the case that he isn't a clear speaker of NYC English. He's a native born New Yorker, hew grew up in New York City, and he built his business in New York City.--Mrv3rsac3 (talk) 18:01, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

@Wolfdog: Can we at least be consistent? If he is not an example of New York City English, then should the information about him be removed in the bullet "Variability based on social register"? Either way, I leave that call up to you.LakeKayak (talk) 18:43, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

@LakeKayak: I'm all for consistency. How about I leave it up to you? I neither added that Trump material nor read the source it cites. If it says nothing about NYCE or seems uncredible, delete it.Wolfdog (talk) 23:47, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

He's absolutely an example of NYCE. Of course he has features that may be idiosyncratic, but he's got many NYCE features and is recognizably a New Yorker. With all due respect to Wolfdog, I think there is a problem with the concept of 'representative speaker.' There is just too much diversity in the dialect region. Here's an article I wrote. [[2]] There have been other articles based on that.

The problem is that these sites are political interviews. Therefore, it is somebody analysis of how Trump speaks. Anyway, this seems to be original research and I have decided to remove it.LakeKayak (talk) 15:29, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

@Bellagio99: I have one problem with the claim that variations result from his elite background. According to Wolfdog, his goat vowel is often centralized. This alone refutes (but not disproves) the idea of variations resulting from an elite background. This feature is found neither in New York City English nor in General American. This however is my take on it.LakeKayak (talk) 15:47, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

I would absolutely defer to linguist Michael Newman (self-identified User:Mnewmanqc) on the issue. Mnewmanqc, by "representative speaker," I just meant a speaker who fairly consistently exhibits all of the major features of the dialect. I realize that this is a relative term and admit that my own impression of Trump is not based on a scientific analysis. Trump has certain features that nail him down as being from the NYC, yes, but he still doesn't speak with all the major or defining features of NYCE in a consistent way, while Bernie Sanders (for example) certainly does. Do you see what I mean? Wolfdog (talk) 20:33, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

@Mnewmanqc: Could you please clarify with specific examples from Trump's speech in your own words that identify him as a speaker of NYCE? I am only an amateur, and I don't know much about Trump's speech at all.LakeKayak (talk) 20:50, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

@Mnewmanqc: I think your article describes New York City English based off attitude than phonological features. I would rather have an article discussing phonological features that Trump uses to determine whether or not his accent resembles a New Yorker.LakeKayak (talk) 03:37, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

P.S. I think I misread your comment the first time, and I didn't realize that you wrote the article.LakeKayak (talk) 03:40, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

I agree. The problem is that few people look at how an individual speaks. The section on notable people is mainly from media reports. I never participate in that section mnewmanqc (talk) 04:02, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

@Mnewmanqc: I agree that this is a problem; however, for the sake of an article on dialect (rather than idiolect), the notable-people sections are one of the few ways a general, nonexpert audience can wrap their heads around such topics; it acts as a kind of anchor into otherwise very technically-written articles. "New York City English? Oh, I see... like the speech qualities of Jerry Seinfeld or Groucho Marx!" Also, it allows people to search up examples of real speakers and learn about the dialect by then listening to audio samples. This promotes learning outside the confines of mere text. This is why I and others push for those notable-people sections, despite their flaws from your strict academic POV. I think there's a real value to them. Hope that makes sense. Wolfdog (talk) 02:30, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

I just cited another two sources which attest to the fact that Donald Trump is a speaker of NYC English, including quotes from linguists noting his "Queens Accent." Being someone from South Florida who grew up around New Yorkers, half of my family being New Yorkers, I'm flabbergasted that this is even a debate. Another thing, if we were to remove anyone from that list that doesn't display all the features of NYCE, perfectly and consistently, at least sixty percent of that list would have to be deleted.--Mrv3rsac3 (talk) 18:01, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

@Mrv3rsac3: What's a Queens accent? I know what is the stereotypical Staten Island or Brooklyn accent. But I have no idea what the stereotype is for Queens or if there even is one. Could you please clarify?LakeKayak (talk) 04:05, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

@LakeKayak: I haven't come across any data regarding differences borough-wise, but I would find that interesting. I'm sure the differences ethnic-wise, Italian, German, Jewish, are much starker, and an Italian-American New Yorker in Staten Island would sound more similar to an Italian-American Long Islander than Italians and Jews would within the same borough. It certainly comes down to the tones and timbre of the original languages trickling down to the English spoken by their descendants, just like the Norwegian/Swedish sing-song Minnesota accent, or the Miami accent I hear down here in South Florida from native-born Hispanic Americans, for whom a light Spanish intonation and melody is present in their day to day English. The Miami accent is very under-recognized and under-appreciated by linguists. The most noticeable features are a very hard pronunciation of "L", directly from Spanish, and in the strongest varieties, the lack of short-a tensing before nasal stops. The "hard L" I notice even among college-educated speakers. --Mrv3rsac3 (talk) 04:32, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

@Mrv3rsac3:To my knowledge, there aren't any known variations based on the boroughs, either. (There are only stereotypes.) However, I am only "confused" by what you mean by "Queens accent." Could you clarify? Thank you.LakeKayak (talk) 20:22, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

No one has ever produced (as far as I'm aware) any evidence for or against borough accents. We should have some relatively soon since Kara Becker of Reed College has been working on it. Still the consensus among variationist sociolinguists is that there is unlikely to be any geographically based differences. That said, once Channel 11 interviewed me and the interviewer asked repeatedly about whether Bernie had a Brooklyn accent and Donald a Queens one. When I didn't say that was the case, she went ahead and said I did. So we need to be very careful about interviews with linguists in the media.mnewmanqc (talk) 03:14, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

@Mrv3sac3: I think there should be a point made on social variation. I think we all can agree that there are feature that vary based on social class. However, there is a problem with your claim on centralizing of goat also known as "fronted /oʊ/". The /oʊ/ is typically fronted in the South and the Midland areas. It may be prestigious in British English. However, to my knowledge, in American English, this feature is highly stigmatized. Therefore, in theory, somebody higher on the social class would be less likely to front their /oʊ/.

As for ethnicity, I think I can focus particularly on speakers from English is their second language. When first learning a new language, a speaker usually will retain some features from the native language into the new language. The closest vowel in many foreign languages, or at least Spanish and Italian, to the English /oʊ/ is [oː]. Therefore, if they initially have a alteration of the /oʊ/, the vowel would be most likely monophthongized to [oː]. As for ethno-cultural accents, as you said, it "comes down to the tones and timbre of the original languages trickling down to the English spoken by their descendants." Therefore, the fronted /oʊ/ is likely to occur in an ethno-centric dialect. In summary, I don't think that social or ethnic differences seem to justify Trump's use of the fronted /oʊ/.

I made this comment.LakeKayak (talk) 14:49, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure whom I'm replying to as there's no signature, but I'm not sure where you got the notion that a fronted "o" is highly stigmatized from. Midland American English, which features a fronted "o", is described by Labov as becoming the "default" for a general American system. Southern American English can have highly fronted o's, which is one of the "stigmatized" features, but it's fronted to a much greater degree than in other varieties of American English. The back, conservative "o" in fact, is often made fun of, the movie Fargo for example which poked fun at the Minnesota accent, or the stereotypical Italian New York/Jersey Shore accent.

Also, I'm not sure what basis you have for the claim that a fronted "o" is more likely to occur in an ethno-centric accent. The Hispanic Miami accent and Italian New York accent have back o's, as these are closer phonetically to the fully rounded, back o's found in Italian and Spanish. The back o is simply diphthongized.--Mrv3rsac3 (talk) 01:01, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

@Mrv3rasc3: I meant to say that the fronted /oʊ/ is less likely to occur in an ethno-centric accent.

I don't think the conservative /oʊ/ is really made fun of. And I wouldn't use the show "The Jersey Shore" as an example.

As for the following claim:

"Midland American English, which features a fronted "o", is described by Labov as becoming the "default" for a general American system."

I am curious where Labov said that.LakeKayak (talk) 15:01, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

@LakeKayak: in the Atlas of North American English (page 135), Labov et al. say: "Thus the Midland participates in the general fronting of /ow/ (and /aw/) and in the ongoing low back merger, without involvement in the active chain shifts of Maps 11.1 to 11.8. Appendix 11.1 figures for homogeneity (.66) and consistency (.44) are quite low compared to the isoglosses reviewed previously, and leakage is high(.16). There is reason to believe that the Midland is becoming the default system of North American English." Sadly, the writing immediately shifts elsewhere and the idea is never fully fleshed-out. Wolfdog (talk) 15:09, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

It seems that the reinstation of "Donald Trump" as a notable speaker contained complete original research. There may be a misuse of the term "New York accent" to describe the stereotypical attitude when speaking. However, I would personally want a source based off phonological features more than attitude. Therefore, I have decided to redo Wolfdog's edit and remove "Trump" again.LakeKayak (talk) 02:38, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

"Original research" is not defined by Wikipedia as valid sources quoting actual professors and experts on a given field making a case contrary to your own. You also don't get to unilaterally dictate and assume which sources are confusing "New York Accent," with a New York attitude, or even make the claim that even one source is doing such thing. Such a claim is completely baseless.

Moreover, to require scientific breakdown of phonological features for inclusion on the list of speakers is nuts. Do we need a source based off of phonological features for Bugs Bunny? According to you we need him removed. Wide cultural recognition and perception doesn't suffice.--Mrv3rsac3 (talk) 04:22, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

Speak of the devil, I was going to mention Bugs Bunny myself. Bugs exhibits features like coil–curl merger and non-rhoticity. This can be seen his catch phrases:

• "I knew I should have taken that left toyn at Albuquoyque."
• "Ain't I a stinkeh"?

You say that my claim of the confusion of a "New York accent" with attitude is baseless, and that you wish to have a concensus of each source. Let's start with Trump, Bernie Sanders, and the Political Appeal of a New Yawk Accent. The source says that "Americans have come to associate New Yorkers, and so New York accents, with saying what you mean, intense emotional talk, and not worrying too much about whom you offend." This is the stereotypical attitude of the New York accent. (In order to be respectful, it should be mentioned that this stereotype is typically exaggerated.) Also, can anybody vouch that this is a reliable source?

Finally, Wolfdog listed inconsistencies in Trump's speech, and you refuted them by saying they were all based on social class or ethnicity, one of which being a fronted /oʊ/. My sole point was that the fronting of /oʊ/ is a feature not based on either criterion and that you should be careful about making a claim like that. That's all I was trying to say.LakeKayak (talk) 22:03, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

@LakeKayak: I don't have data to back it up, but having the unfronted, conservative "o" isn't universal. I've noticed a more fronted "o" in Jewish NYCE speakers, see Judge Judy, Barbara Walters, Jerry Seinfeld, while the conservative, backed "o" sounds more Italian, Robert De Niro, Rudy Giuliani. This is just a personal observation.

As for the NY Mag article, why is this any less legitimate than any other source used to identify speakers of an accent? Is perception not sufficient? Are phonological studies required of each individual speaker in order to include them in the list?--Mrv3rsac3 (talk) 01:01, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

Simply, I never heard of it before, and I was asking anybody really if it was a blog or not. I wasn't sure for myself. As for other sources that may be used to identify speakers as New York accents, based off Mnewmanqc's word, it seems a lot of them are imperfect.

My issue is not the need for a formal study. If a speaker exhibits noticeable features to the layman's ear like non-rhoticity, then an article should mention those noticeable features.LakeKayak (talk) 02:58, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

LakeKayak (talk) 02:58, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

I don't think there's any real basis for removing Trump from the list. He's been as documented as a speaker of NYCE as any of the others listed, and probably more than most. The presence of a feature like GOAT fronting or not does not take away the presence of a number of NYCE features, such as voicing of /hj/ in words like human or huge, THOUGHT raising, and variable rhoticity. As Wolfdog has said, the purpose of the notable speakers section is to provide examples of the features described in the more technical sections. He is a clearly a NYCE speaker. mnewmanqc (talk) 04:08, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

So, the more I now listen to Trump in clips, the more I feel the goat vowel is the only pretty consistently non-NYCE feature in his speech. I'd thought I'd heard several other non-NYCE features in the past, but I can't seem to find them at this time. Also, I already commented that I'd defer to Mnewmanqc's knowledge on the subject. That said, here are some other observations:

• At first, I was wary that LakeKayak referred to cited sources as "original research", however, in looking through the articles, I now see what some of LakeKayak's valid concerns are. Just because an article mentions an idea one time doesn't mean it makes a great case for that idea being true. (However, I don't think they all need to be deleted either.) Below, I make a comment on each of the cited articles.
• Mrv3rsac3, I agree that "to require scientific breakdown of phonological features for inclusion on the list" is unnecessary... for most speakers. However, it is certainly not "nuts", as you say, in the event that there is dispute among editors. When editors find an inclusion to be contentious, further and more specific evidence is often required to resolve the dispute. This is completely normal WP routine. These need not be just phonological features though; lexical or syntactic features could also help bolster one side or the other in our case.
• OK, so here is what I see from each cited article:
  • "New South Carolina Poll" is certainly a terribly edited article, where a name is spelled both "Huffmon" and "Hoffman"; it once quotes a non-linguist who mentions Trump's NY accent. Otherwise, his accent is unmentioned and unelaborated. This seems unimpressive.
  • "Donald Trump's Comedy Central roasters" once states that Trump has a NY accent. I have no idea of the writer's credentials.
  • "Donald Trump's Accent" is all about perceptions and associations made to Trump's accent. No actually measurable features are mentioned. Yet there is one exception to this: the "yuge" feature.
  • "Every C-Span Shot of Donald Trump" says literally nothing about any accent as far as I can see. It should be immediately deleted.
  • "Donald Trump, Bernie Sanders" presents a few actual features of NY English (mostly in references to Bernie Sanders), including the "yuge" feature.
• Also, LakeKayak, where did you get the idea that goat fronting is highly stigmatized? That idea seems not only unlikely, but possibly the opposite is even true for some Americans.

Thanks, everyone for having this respectful conversation. Wolfdog (talk) 14:53, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

@Wolfdog: If it's the criterion for an article that specific phonological features are described, and simple recognition of the speaker as an NYCE speaker isn't enough, we would have many, many articles to remove on this page, if not the overwhelming majority. The New York accent is the American "accent," as in the deviant from "General American," that is the most conspicuous and easily recognized, with the most media and film exposure, of any accents other than perhaps Southern American English. As an American, someone from the New York/North New Jersey area can be picked out right away. You're setting the bar unreasonably high by asking for the source to acknowledge a "raised 'thought' vowel," or a "consistent short-a split," in order for it to be a valid source to attest to the fact that a speaker is of a particular accent.

Regarding your removal of my Washington Post article, again quoting linguists and professors, all who confirm he has a New York accent, again, how many sources are we going to have to eliminate, and how many people on that list are we going to have to remove, if you apply the same standard to all those listed, all these sources?

Just from personal observation, as has already been pointed out in this talk page, Trump has the raised "thought" vowel, he irregularly demonstrates the short-a split, he uses /ɑ/ for the "horrible/majority" class words, and drops the "h" before the /j/, as in "huge" and "human." In addition, I observed in the third debate how he used the VERY New York terminology, "on line," as opposed to "in line," when he was describing queues for legal immigrants in the third debate.--Mrv3rsac3 (talk) 03:24, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

@Mrv3rsac3: I think we've arrived at the same basic position at this point. We're keeping Trump on the page. However, as I've said already, in the event that there is dispute among editors, it's completely justified to do away with the less convincing evidence and keep the more convincing, stronger evidence, which is more verifiable and so more likely to stand the test of time and be immune to editors' doubts and criticisms. This is general WP protocol: avoid a ton of so-so citations when you can have a small number of stronger citations. An article that mentions even one measurable feature of an accent is more convincing than an article that doesn't, and also certainly more convincing than an article that merely relies on mentioning people's flighty impressions or perceptions. That's all that I mean here. Wolfdog (talk) 09:40, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

@Wolfdog: It may be original research that the fronted /oʊ/ is highly stigmatized. When I hear the fronted /oʊ/, I find the sound to be rather annoying. The sound sounds to be drawn out, like a drawl, and drawls can be perceived as annoying. (The Southern drawl for instance is highly stigmatized).LakeKayak (talk) 15:13, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

@Mrv3rsac3: You asked about whether the fronted /oʊ/ occurred for Jewish speakers of New York English. I did some research. To answer your question, in Labov's book "Stratification of New York City English", he does record differences between ethnicities, including Italian and Jewish. However, he does not address the fronting of /oʊ/ (in his notation /ow/) as such a variable feature. Therefore, it probably doesn't happen.LakeKayak (talk) 17:39, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

@LakeKayak: Like I told you, I have no research to back my claim up. It was an observation on my part. I encourage you though to juxtapose Italian and Jewish NYCE speakers, and the /oʊ/ and /u/ are more fronted in Jewish speakers. Listen to clips of Judge Judy, Fran Drescher, or the Seinfeld cast.--Mrv3rsac3 (talk) 03:24, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

@Mrv3rsac3: From what you said, I was under the impression that you weren't sure either way. So, I only was saying that I found some potential evidence to suggest that Jewish speakers might not be more prone to fronting their /oʊ/'s. However, nothing is set in stone. In a sense, we are like scientists, going back and forth with information in attempts to come to a conclusion. That's all.LakeKayak (talk) 21:07, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

@Mrv3rsac3:-"What's the problem with the Washington Post"- I apologize for making the claim "original research". It seems that I have mistaken "original research" (a Wikipedia policy) for "biased research" (a term I heard once from an English teacher). "Biased research" is where research is steered in a way that forces an underlying concept. It should be avoided at all costs because it actually discredits an argument. For your "Washington Post" article, the page is entitled "Donald Trump's Accent Explained". This underlies the idea that Trump has an accent. And that is (in your own words) "what's wrong" with the article.LakeKayak (talk) 21:36, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

Questions on "Variability based on social register"

Currently, there is a bullet labelled "Variability based on social register," formatted as a second level bullet under the bullet labelled "Cot-caught distinction." It sounds like we're saying that the cot–caught merger has some variability based off social structure, which I don't believe to be accurate. If this is a mistake, then we easily change the level of the bullet. However, before I make any such edit, I want to make sure that it was not intentional first. LakeKayak (talk) 02:07, 17 January 2017 (UTC)

Frank Sinatra

Wasn't he from New Jersey? Shouldn't he be listed as notable speaker from New Jersey?LakeKayak (talk) 01:10, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Yep... seems like it. Wolfdog (talk) 01:43, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Done.LakeKayak (talk) 19:07, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Didn't Sinatra grow up in Hoboken, which is in the NYCE dialect region. That he's from a different state is irrelevant. No one can tell the difference between those east of the Hackensack River and any other part of the dialect region. This is documented in Labov, Ash, and Boberg (2006). mnewmanqc (talk) 04:13, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

@Mnewmanqc: I don't know. I'll have to look that one up.LakeKayak (talk) 12:54, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

Although it turns out he did grow up in Hoboken, I have no confirmation either way about how he spoke. And I don't know which one is the case. I think it may be easiest to leave in the New Jersey section until we have confirmation.LakeKayak (talk) 13:07, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

If it makes you feel better, just listening to Sinatra speaks makes it abundantly obvious that he speaks NYCE. Listen: [3]. Wolfdog (talk) 15:22, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

Yes. This will do. Thank you.LakeKayak (talk) 15:28, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

good. Agreed. He can stay in NJ too. NJ is not a dialect region but forms part of various ones. mnewmanqc (talk) 23:51, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

Initial l

According to Wells, the initial l in New York is typically unvelarized. This page fails to address the topic at all, neither supporting or refuting this claim. It would be feasible to add a bullet addressing the topic under the bullet for "L-vocalization." I am left to use Wells as source because Labov never mentions the topic, either. (His focus was rhoticity and the evolution of vowels in the different dialects of American English.) Over and out.LakeKayak (talk) 13:45, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure how important a distinction it is, but if Wells says it, then you can cite it. By the way, what do you mean with your addition "(See further below.)"? Wolfdog (talk) 21:06, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

@Wolfdog:The next bullet describes the feature of laminal consonants, including /l/, being articulated with the blade of the tongue. "See further below" was an attempt to avoid redundancy. If you can fix it, please do.LakeKayak (talk) 00:32, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

Formatting table

Can anybody help me out with the table for the vowels of New York City English? I want to merge the two /ɒ/ cells in the first column. However, I seem to have problems doing it.LakeKayak (talk) 20:37, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

"On line"

@Ajd: The Atlantic article may be supporting evidence. However, my question is whether or not "on line" is confined to New York. Currently, this page makes it seems like it is. If I mistook the article, just tell me. Thank you.LakeKayak (talk) 00:33, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

The page doesn't make it seem like on line is confined to New York in the strict sense. It says that "most other" American dialects don't use on line, which is certainly true (and is supported by the Atlantic article). And it's definitely a distinctive feature of NYC English. Other NYC features aren't "confined to" New York either. AJD (talk) 04:17, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

@Ajd: I think it would be clearer if we said, "New Yorkers 'tend to' stand "on line," whereas most other American-English speakers 'tend to' stand "in line." Otherwise, when I read it, I feel that we are speaking in absolute. Either way, before I make such an edit, I wish for your approval. Thank you.LakeKayak (talk) 16:43, 18 February 2017 (UTC)