Talk:Outline of Bible-related topics

Requested move 12 March 2017

Outline of Bible-related topics → Outline about the Bible – I suggested a name at the recent AfD, which was adopted, but I hadn't put much thought into it when I made the suggestion, and I thought of potentially much better solution right afterwards. I figured those in the discussion would appreciate being informed of it, and pinged them. If the new article title can improve the encyclopedia, it's worth considering. It is less wordy, removes the redundant "topics" (outlines by definition are lists of topics), presents the Bible as the root subject rather than marginalizing it into the adjective "Bible-related", and drops the superfluous punctuation (hyphen). The Transhumanist 12:56, 12 March 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. -- Dane ^talk 02:09, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

@DrStrauss, Ouro, Mortee, Broter, Non-dropframe, Fayenatic london, BrownHairedGirl, Linguist111, and JohnBlackburne:

Just after the AfD, I thought of another name than the one I proposed (and which was adopted) there, but unfortunately not until after the AfD was over:

• "Outline about the Bible"

It is less wordy than "Outline of Bible-related topics", it drops the redundant "topics" (outlines by definition include topics), and the awkward hyphen (subject names usually stand alone: which is the better term here, "Bible" or "Bible-related"?). It is also clearer and cleaner, as the subject is the root topic itself "the Bible", rather than "Bible-related topics" which conflates elements of the subject name with elements perhaps better left in the title outside of the subject name (related = about). And since we arrived at the current title through consensus, according to JohnBlackburne (on Linguist111's talk page), a new consensus is needed to change it again, and so I've pinged you all to consider the new name. Thank you. The Transhumanist 19:08, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

I think Overview of the Bible would be a good title. Linguist^talk|contribs 19:29, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

No, I think that would be a bad title; it suggests a piece of Biblical theology, summarising the message of the Bible. This page is not that at all, but a structured list of articles whose topics are closely related to the Bible. Outline of Bible-related topics is best IMHO. – Fayenatic London 22:10, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

The proper way to establish consensus over a title is a move request. It keeps the discussion focussed, helps interested editors find the discussion, not just those the proposer chooses to invite via ping, and normally ensures the discussion concludes in a reasonable time and does not drag on forever. The only problem is initiating a move request so soon after it was moved following another discussion might cause some editors to dismiss it and call for it to be speedily closed as too soon. You would I think need compelling arguments why the outcome of the AfD was flawed, and why the article needs to be moved yet again.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 08:09, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

I contacted the above selection of people because they were involved in the conversation in which this title was chosen, which makes them familiar with the issues involved, and those who got involved about the title thereafter. The reason for this discussion is that a potentially better solution for improvement of the article was thought of with respect to the problem that was under discussion. Improvement of the encyclopedia is always a compelling argument, because that's the primary reason we're all here. The Transhumanist 12:56, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

I've posted it at RM via the standard template. The Transhumanist 12:58, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for making this into a proper RM, it certainly clarifies it. But I must oppose for the same reasons as I gave here – 'outline about' is just far worse English, 'outline of' is the normal way of using outline in English ("I want outline of the proposal on my desk tomorrow"). The current title is clear, far from too long, and has no other problems.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 13:43, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

• Outline of the Bible sounds better, and more biblical. Randy Kryn 22:02, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

It's not an outline of the Bible; it's an outline of topics related to the Bible. —BarrelProof (talk) 00:20, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose: The current title conveys a more clear idea of what the topic is, and "outline about" seems very awkward in English (per JohnBlackburne). —BarrelProof (talk) 00:20, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
  • A book about ants, a document about temperature fluctuations, and an outline about the Bible (rather than of the Bible), work just fine grammatically. The Transhumanist 00:31, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
    • It might not be grammatically wrong when parsed as intended, but it is awkward and confusing, and the current title seems better. The current title conveys a more clear idea of what the topic is. I see nothing wrong with the phrase "Bible-related topics" (or with its hyphenation). —BarrelProof (talk) 16:22, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose: the proposed title does not make sense according to the rules of English grammar and sentence construction. You can't use an adverb (in this instance 'about') in the proposed manner, you need a preposition (such as 'of' which is used in the current title). Ebonelm (talk) 19:08, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
  • @Ebonelm, JohnBlackburne, BarrelProof, and Linguist111: "About" (can be used as an adverb, but it) is one of the main prepositions.[1][2][3][4][5] See also List of English prepositions. And you are right, "Outline of" is the dominant usage (especially pertaining to documents, like outline of a report), but can have dual-meaning in cases such as "Outline of Italy". Meanwhile, "Outline about" is also grammatically correct,[6][7] and is especially appropriate concerning subjects rather than documents. The Transhumanist 00:31, 14 March 2017 (UTC)