Talk:Satanism

Talk:Satanism/archive1
Talk:Satanism/archive2 - Discussion Up to 2006-01-16

Major Overhaul

This has been long overdue. Very long overdue.

This article has been an embarassment for Wikipedia for as long as I can remember. It has essentially been one long list of vanity pages, where groups that do not even vaguely fit the definition of Satanism can list their contact information in hopes of attracting followers. Not anymore.

Apparently the people who contest that Anton LaVey founded Satanism as a religion aren't up to date on Wikipedia policy. Allow me to clarify:

No statements that cannot be backed up by reliable, neutral sources can be counted as fact. Clear enough?

No evidence that any "generational Satanism" has ever existed has been brought to my attention. If you think you have proof of this, consider that your source must predate 1966 (the foundation of the Church of Satan) to provide incontrovertable evidence that it is otherwise. Etymological research shows that up until LaVey, "satanism" (not capitalized) and "satanist" (the same) were not used as religious designations but as insults, the implication being that the person in question was either crazy, a blasphemer, or both. The term was most often leveled at Christian heretics, not anyone who actually considered themselves in league with the devil. This has been established time and time again.

Likewise, just because a group has an angelfire site and a bunch of teenagers calling themselves "priests" does not make it a valid religious organization, and it certainly doesn't make it notable by Wikipedia standards. The groups removed from this page either do not fit the definition of Satanism, or have membership so insubstantial that regardless of whether they qualify as "Satanic" or not they are not notable (in most cases, both are true). For example, the Temple of Set has a number of members, but does not even consider itself to be a Satanic organization. Sat/Tan has never been demonstrated to have membership beyond a single individual. This nonsense is not up to Wikipedia standards.

Therefore, all changes made to this article must be verified by outside sources and must be within the standards of content for Wikipedia. Otherwise, they will be reverted immediately. I welcome constructive efforts, but I cannot allow all standards of factuality and content to be tossed aside. -Lvthn13 06:00, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

So called Major Overhaull gone to far.

This section should not all be about Anton LaVey because the term Satanism existed in 16th century. Used by Roman Catholic Church. http://www.religioustolerance.org/satanis5.htm

Ah, thank you for the link! That actually seems to prove exactly my point, and I support it entirely. As that page says, such "early Satanism" was an imaginary religion invented, as I said, to serve as a derogation of those the Catholic Church wished to persecute. It perhaps deserves a minor section describing exactly this, and I will gladly elaborate to make sure that it is included. It doesn't, by the way, negate the fact of LaVey creating Satanism as a real religion. But, this link is valuable so I'll very gladly edit the article in some free time to include that.

Also, please keep commentary in proper format, don't just tack it up to the top of the page. -Lvthn13 21:03, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Anton LaVey did not create the term Satanism

Satanism has also existed since the 15th Century. Anton LaVey did not invent the term Satanism unless he existed in 15th Century and member of Catholic Church http://www.religioustolerance.org/satanis5.htm 15th Century Satanism

Once again, please put your commentary in the correct format, not randomly put up at the top of the page as though it takes all priority.

This article is about the religion Satanism, not the historic use of the term. The use of the term in Catholic Inquisition has now fallen entirely out of favor, and was never used to describe an actual religion. Therefore, it is of etymological interest but of no interest to understanding Satanism as a religion, the topic of this article.

Also, your repeated edits without real discussion, against established consensus, and inclusion of irrelevant links, is vandalous and in violation of Wikipedia policy. Please cease the attacks, register a name, and enter discussion or you will be reported to administrators. -Lvthn13 21:58, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

The term 'satanism' is used by many different kinds of organizations and people to define themselves. The old article accurately depicted a multitude of religions and philosophies. I don't need esoteric sources, I can figure that out simply by googling for "satanism". Obviously, as a satanist, you would consider your own definition as the one and only right, but Wikipedia is not the place to push for a clarification of terminology - the article about satanism is about what people mean when they use it, not what it ideally should mean. I'm not a regular editor on either Wikipedia in general, or this article in particular, but I request for this edit to be undone. Even worse than unfairly favoring one flavor of satanism over all others, it quiets the discussion on the nature of the philosophy by basing everything on one book: It would be inappropriate even to define Christiantiy through the bible alone, and they consider it Holy Scripture. -Ados 20:14, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

The errors here are multiple: First, there are not "flavors" of Satanism (as a religion, it should be capitalized). First, as I've detailed below, LaVey was the first person to define Satanism as a religious designation. More to the point, the other groups that call themselves Satanists have no published literature whatsoever to indicate that they have a belief system, have such insignificant membership as to make them unnotable, and from what little is available about them, obviously have nothing in common with one another to suggest that they should even be going by the same name. This isn't like the difference between Baptists and Pentacostals, but like the difference between Taoists and Muslims, and the Muslims insist that they also are Taoists even though the definition of Taoism existed long before they did, and they have zero common ground. It isn't logical.

But, to make this simple: can you prove that any of these different kinds of organizations are actually organizations (as opposed to websites), have a coherent belief structure, reliable sources on their beliefs, or meet Wikipedia standards of notability? Your example of a google search is disingenious, since I could type in "dog" and get a million results irrelevant to the four legged animal. -Lvthn13 22:01, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Your demands on what qualifies something for inclusion are arbitrary, and do not reflect at all Wikipedia's quality standards or common practice. In what way a belief system is coherent or not, does not matter for it counting as a religion. Websites are frequently and rightfully used as a credible source on Wikipedia, as they have the advantage of being readily accessable and verifyable to the reader. - Can you _prove_ that the Church of Satan is more than thinly spread self-help group meetings of people who have to compensate for low-level employment, more than the wet dream of a lonely loon? Holocaust revisionists get published, too - that doens't make them credible.

I agree that different "satanist" groupings have little in common, but again, that is not the issue here. It's an encyclopedia: If enough people call it something, it has a right to be listed under that name. At most, make a disambiguation page - but don't just whitewash the article of all other opinions. Google may not be a perfect demographic tool, but it is the best tool that is available in the timeframe an average reader is willing to invest. As such it has authority. If you google for "dog" and you find tons of high-ranking pages describing trees and birds as "dogs", then maybe the article on dogs needs some revisioning. -Ados 12:33, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Satanism as a whole can only be defined as the practice of a religion as outlined in the Satanic Bible. Sure there are other groups of people who call themselves Satanists, but those aren’t the people (nor religion they purportedly practice) one expects to read about when they wish to understand what Satanism is.

This is an encyclopedia like you point out. And because of that the article should not be ambiguous (as it was before). It should be a fair representation of what Satanism is (and is not). Including every Tom, Dick, and Harry, into the article just because they call themselves a Satanist, or a Church, would be far from fair, or an honest representation of Satanism.

Let me just say that I am not a member, or an advocate for Church of Satan in any way. With that said I do believe that there should be one definition for Satanism and that is the modern brand of Satanism that 90% of “Satanists” ascribe to. If someone wants to make an entry for “Traditional Satanism” and “Devil Worship” they are free to do so, and this new article could even link to them while describing what modern Satanism is not. Absinthe (Talk) 17:10, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Kind of shot yourself in the foot there. This is an encyclopedia of facts, not opinions, nor is it a pulpit for "equal opportunity opinions." Your statement about results for dogs does of course ignore what I pointed out: by your definition then, the page for Dog should include a section on the use of the word in black slang for "friend," another entry for its use as a slang for "ugly person," a section on the website www.ytmnd.com and a section on doggystyle sex. The idea that this would somehow belong in the articel for Dog is of course absurd; the word dog first and foremost refers to the friendly quadruped we all know. See also the article for Weed; directs to an article on the garden pest, not Marijuana, nor does it even mention the drug. Original definitions get priority.

You make an issue where there is none. Search for Devil Worship, for example; you find exactly what you were looking for. Same for Demonolatry. Why confuse readers by trying to tack two dozen unrelated things under one article? That's how you'd like to see Wikipedia operate? -Lvthn13 21:35, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Devil Worship redirected to Satanism. I've changed it to redirect to Demonolatry. -Serdan 07:00, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Facts are just very prestigious opinions ... and the article on "dog" has at least a disambiguation page linked at the top. But I see that the way of reason is blocked and I don't really care enough to get into an edit war about it. Someone more fanatical will have to come along. -Ados 10:15, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I must give my absolute support for the so-called major overhaul that has taken place. Very well done.Darkahn 10:32, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

How is this for evidence? “The true name of Satan, the Kabalists say, is that of Yahveh reversed; for Satan is not a black God, but the negation of God. The Devil is the personification of Atheism or Idolatry. For the Initiates, this is not a person, but a force, created for good, but which may serve for evil. It is the instrument of Liberty or free will. They represent this Force, which presides over the physical generation, under the mythologic and horned form of the God Pan; thence the he-goat of the Sabbat, brother of the Ancient Serpent, and the light bearer or Phosphor, of which the poets have made the false Lucifer of the legend.”

  - Albert Pike “Morals and Dogma“ Ancient and Accepted Rite of Free Masonry written and published in 1875.

Note:For the Initiates, this is not a person, but a force, created for good, but which may serve for evil. The Initiates are Satanists and this is from 1875 long before Anton was alive. Also this is my proof and Backed up with fact. Waiting for your reply. - (unsigned comment moved to correct position)

Lots of people centuries before that had the same view of Satan. Doesn't mean they founded the religion, and the text you quote doesn't support the idea that these people called themselves Satanists, only that they viewed Satan as a positive archetype. -Lvthn13 19:27, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

The black arts and various occult practices resurfaced in the late 19th century. In France, it was believed that Freemasons were involved in Satan worship. Satan also became a symbol for the French revolution through writers such as Eliphas Lévi (Russell 1986: 201). In 19th-century French culture, Satan was often depicted as a political figure, though whose side he was on changed constantly depending on who made the charges.

In 1875, the Theosophical Society was founded by Madame Helena Blavatsky, and another occult organization, the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, twelve years later. One of the most prominent members in the later years of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn was Aleister Crowley, a name that has come to be synonymous with popular understandings of Satanism in the 20th century. Although Crowley was not a technically a Satanist, he did claim to be "the Beast 666" from the book of Revelation, and some of his ideas and practices would later be incorporated into modern Satanism. In 1930s Paris, a Luciferian temple was established by Maria de Naglowska, and it is believed that her organization is still active in France (Medway 2001: 11-21).

All of which are facts you could have read from LaVey's book The Satanic Rituals.

You are side tracking the point and the issue and none of this came from LaVey. You wanted proof I gave you Proof now you are trying to dodge the truth and redirect it to LaVey. This appears to be a Bias on your part. Thus your new section on Satanism is full of personal bias and favortism toward LaVey, thus this is a biased article, therefore goes against wikki policy. Rev. Michael S. Margolin P.S. Also note that the EGC exists within O.T.O. so no suprise that after 32nd degree you are offered Masonic Satanism, a religion within the order and hidden from the general public just like the EGC is with the O.T.O.. Gee a tad slow replying when exposed for what you are.

Pretty quick to jump to conclusions. You seem to be missing my point entirely. I stated in my original discussion that I was well aware of the Hellfire Clubs, Crowley, Templars, Masons, etc, and so was LaVey, and the right conclusion is that while these are interesting side notes, none of them constituted a formation of a religion going by the name of Satanism. None of this is new knowledge then, I put it forth myself, so saying that I am "running from the truth" is merely accusatory. You still have not provided a single source indicating that anybody prior to 1966 called themselves a Satanist (yes, it must be specific that they called themselves a Satanist, because the issue here is the title of the article, not the existence prior to 1966 of people who sympathized with the devil). -Lvthn13 05:15, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

It is you that is missing the point. I'm talking about secret societies your talking about a man that comercialized a secret. In secret, 32 degree Masons that accepted Baphomet were and are Satanists. Anton did not invent Satanism, he comercialized and ruined it. And Freemason Satanism has nothing to do with self indulgence.

The article on freemasonry doesn't mention anything about Satanism, so how about you go edit that first and see what happens? -Serdan 16:58, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

More side tracking, just because the wikki article does not mention it does not mean it does not exist. I gave you proof and facts and all you guys can to is side step and attempt to manipulate reality to try and push your bias opinion on what Satanism is to the general public. This is the same tactics and style of propaganda the Nazi's used in ww2

Criticisms Section

Taking a look at the criticisms section, it seems that 3 of the criticisms come from this page. While I admit that the criticisms posted there are likely valid criticsms of Satanism, I found a lot of wiggle words ("some", "Christian theologians") and no specifics as to who is making these criticisms. Can we get some sources on where to find them? Gracie. -- CABHAN TALK CONTRIBS 03:35, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Focus on Levay?

Is it just me or is much of the page still written as if this were an article about the Church of Satan instead of satanism in general? There are already at least two articles devoted to that subject, Church of Satan and LeVayan Satanism, those seem like space enough. For instance is there really any justification for repeating the entire list of Satanic Statements and Satanic Laws both here and on the Levayan page? -- Alkzndr, April 4, 2006

I was about to add something like Alkzndr's comment myself. I don't think the problem is that it focuses on a very prominent Satanic church (CoS) so much that it does so despite the ready availability of information elsewhere on Wikipedia on LeVay &c. I'm not sure the good Reverend's comment is quite right either, though--rather than outline all the specific forms of Satanism, I think this article should give the "sects" an overview while linking to independent articles. The body itself should certainly focus on the unifying principles of the faith. There's nothing NPOV about supplying a copious amount of information, though--if you have information to balance it out, supply it, and trim the overlap between this article and Church of Satan, LeVayan Satanism, and others. If you can improve it with more material, do so. Plus, Wikipedia can't really be biased... its editors can, I admit. But you are an editor, too. So get cracking. Fearwig 22:30, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

HS, I am from the Freemason family of Satanists, Aleister E. Crowley, Albert Pike, Theodore Reuss, Jack Parsons, Ben Franklin, Jean Cocteu, Kenneth Anger, and many many more. Funny you brought up Zoraster he is a huge influence, not only in hermetics but Freemasonry as well. As far as dualist that is Christian Satanism. We are based on the formula of 1+-1=0 thus we are nihilists. For an in depth look at this topic See Crowley's "Magick without tears" Or Crowley's "Tau Teh King" No I'm not a Thelemite but have been in Ordo Templi Orientis for a very long time LOL I'm Also honored in the A:.A:. Now as for get cracking a friend not a member sent me the following Paragraph for submittle.

The Sinagogue of Satan is a religious organization based on the concept of Satanism as described in Albert Pike's book Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry: Morals and Dogma. The doctrine of The Sinagogue of Satan is not based on the “popular” Satanists of our day, nor Hollywood or Christian propaganda. The religion contains no dogma in or of itself, and encourages its followers to believe in whatever they like, as long as they do not attempt to push such beliefs on others. The aim of this religion is the ultimate destruction of religion through the advancement of individual freedom and social responsibility. The Sinagogue of Satan does not promote self-indulgence but rather self-expression balanced with social responsibility.

Now as far as Satan as a Deity here is a paragraph to show you the Masonic take on that topic.

“The true name of Satan, the Kabalists say, is that of Yahveh reversed; for Satan is not a black God, but the negation of God. The Devil is the personification of Atheism or Idolatry. For the Initiates, this is not a person, but a force, created for good, but which may serve for evil. It is the instrument of Liberty or free will. They represent this Force, which presides over the physical generation, under the mythologic and horned form of the God Pan; thence the he-goat of the Sabbat, brother of the Ancient Serpent, and the light bearer or Phosphor, of which the poets have made the false Lucifer of the legend.” Albert Pike “Morals and Dogma“ Ancient and Accepted Rite of Free Masonry written and published in 1875.

I hope this all helps, feel free to ask for more. ISN Rev. Michael S. Margolin

Reading more, I think there's a lot to be said for streamlining almost anything out of this that goes into more than cursory depth about LeVay's CoS, and moving anything that's actually unique over to the relevant articles. Even in the "Criticisms of Satanism" section, you've got principles directly relating to the CoS (at least from my uneducated standpoint). For instance, am I not correct in thinking that many, or at least some interpretations of Satanism do accept the existence of Satan and/or God as literal deities, or deity-like figures? Under the criticisms the editor has added what can only be inferred as counter-criticisms, ones that imply strongly a CoS-like standpoint on that issue. Fearwig 22:33, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Satan within Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Ayyavazhi

The phrase "expanded upon" is a corruption of the fairly-common phrase "expounded upon." In addition, there is an agreement problem with the subject and verb in that sentence. One can expound upon an account, or idea. One does not expound upon a word. Let's try: "The term 'Satan' originated with Judaism and the concept was elucidated further by Christians and Muslims." Drogue 08:21, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

On further thought, a better edit would say: "The concept of 'Satan' originated with Judaism and was elucidated further by Christians and Muslims." Drogue 10:58, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

HS, the name Satan did come from the Jews, but maybe even older, but Devils and Jinn or rather evil spirits predates Judaism. Devils are seen in almost every religion and culture on earth. I understand the main article is on Satan/Satanism therefore mystical Satanism or Demonology should be a seperate artical. Just trying to help. ISN Rev. Michael S. Margolin

Djinni are spirit beings supposed to live "in a civilization in Spirit World" just like this universe.And yes,they DO predate Islam,nor are they evil.When they like,they cross over here,doing this and that.--CAN T 21:08, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I have always accepted the dualistic side of Judaism that produced Satan/Shaitan and the Hebrew equivalent with which I'm not familiar, which led to stronger dualistic elements in Christianity and Islam, to have its roots in Zoroastrianism. The parallels seem too clear to ignore, the more one reads. Am I alone in this? I think this topic is too big for this article, though. Fearwig 22:37, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Where did the article go?

On April 28th, Allez basically gutted this article with no comments on why, and obviously nothing on the talk page about it. See [1] for specifics. What happened and should it be reverted? Kutulu 02:36, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Lies

This whole article is not even about Satanism. Satanism is the worshipping of the self. That's right. It is the belief that the worshipper is a god themselves. Satan worshippers worship Satan. Satanists worship themselves. See the difference? The reason most people think Satanists worship Satan is because Satan is in the name. However, this only refers to the act that the archangel commited against the christian god. If I knew howto flag this thing for controversy, I would.

Satanism is a religion founded partly on a humanistic philosophy. In that I mean, they don't worship Satan, but see him as the embodiment of individualism and human nature. They believe that what Christians call "sin" is not wrong, but completely natural with humans and it is unfair to ridcule it as Christianity does.Wolfranger 14:00, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I would strongly suppose that this is a matter of opinion. There are probably many people who you would classify as Satan worshippers who classify themselves as Satanists. This is the kind of discussion that defines sect divides, I think. I'll add the controversy flag, though. It's well-deserved, if not just for this reason. Fearwig 22:39, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

---

(stupid, mindless comment by christian removed)

I strongly reccomend that to stop this stuff from happening, make it so that Satan Worship doesn't redirect to Satanisn.72.43.149.190 18:02, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Sinagogue of Satan

http://www.abcnews4.com/externalwebsite.hrb?website=http://www.sosatan.org/

HS, just for fun here are two interviews side by side one with me and one with John Allee. Do please tell me what you think. The interviews are under 'Articles" www.leagueofsatanists.com ISN Me

HS, this is from Fearwigs discusion page.

"If all the things you say are true, then I have no reason to argue about it, as then your organization is certainly of mentionable significance. Fearwig 16:11, 26 May 2006 (UTC)"

Do any of you other editors have anything to say before I let my members do their will?

ISN Rev. Michael S. Margolin

I think the person who edited the article to add this information is the founder of said "Sinagogue", if a signature near the top is what I think it is. It's also about as far from NPOV as you can get. Removing edit, for now. If the author wants to reread the Wikipedia contribution info and rewrite it such that it's even remotely objective he's welcome, I guess (or better yet wait until his movement is actually significant, such that someone else can write it--just because we have online ULE certs doesn't mean we get our own wikis for invented religious movements). Again, correct me if I'm mistaken in any way. Fearwig 22:46, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

If you note the discussion at the end of Talk:Satanism/archive2, you'll see that we had an issue like this before, but that agreement was reached that so long as a small portion could be maintained on this page, and efforts begun to restore the article (which later failed in Deletion Review), we could try and avoid the huge problems of contant revert warring here. I'd urge that a small section be left in the Other Organizations section (though of course made NPOV and grammar-corrected), so as to satisfy the conditions there. -- CABHAN TALK CONTRIBS 02:52, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I understand now. I dare say it could become a very long list, though, if every supposed reverend listed his or her Satanic bowling team as a burgeoning religious movement. Fearwig 18:57, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Believe you me, I very much agree. But I do think that this may be the most peaceful way to go about it: people get to have a small and peer-edited section, and therefore we aren't subject to constant revert warring. -- CABHAN TALK CONTRIBS 03:03, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Objectivism

Why is Ayn Rand's Objectivist philosophy listed as an "associated concept"? Although it is true that the main thesis of Objectivist ethics states that the pursual of one's own rational self-interest is the moral purpose of one's own life, the entire philosophy is at odds with the concept of Satanism. Objectivism is a philosophic system based on four main points: objective reality, reason, self-interest, and capitalism. Satanism is a loose conglomerate of emotion-based and mystic beliefs. I strongly object to Objectivism's being listed as an "associated concept." - A.T.

I agree with whoever added it that it's closely related, philosophically. That the founding principle of each is that action for the sake of self-interest is morally sound, whereas most every other major philsophy opposes that notion. If I'm not mistaken, there are also some shared admitted philosophical influences between the two of them, Friedrich Nietzsche, for one. The problem here is that "Satanism" can mean many things, and one meaning is close to Objectivism (another involves pimply goons with The Crow makeup). Objectivism, of course, cannot be interpreted as loosely as Satanism, since it is more or less a cult of personality based around the philosophies expresssed in the fiction of one individual. Fearwig 18:12, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually, A.T., they match up quite perfectly. One Satanic aspect, as far as objective reality goes, is to question all things and believe nothing beyond or outside the realm of fact, which leads into reason.

Satanism? A strong emphasis on the self, which subjectifies self-interest, which leaves the desire to be successful: Capitalism.

Bacon HS Bacon, as far as Sinagogue of Satan is concerned Subjective reality is at the forefront with objective reality as a balance beam to make the system a paradox. Therefore when we say freedom of religion undermines religion we include our own to allow objective reality to be true as well, paradox, philosophy, and chess. ISN Me

Devil Worship Section

This section seems titled with a non-NPOV. It cites that media is trying to gain higher ratings for example. There is no citation and seems largely to be opinion. I'll wait for discussion, but I believe it should be edited soon. Jackhamm 14:52 2 June 2006 {EST}

Red ink

Just checking--is this last edit really odd vandalism, or actual? Fearwig 02:41, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Set and tax exemption

I moved the Set section from the cults section into the setian section; it got seperated somehow. Anyway, I noticed a line about it being recognized as a tax-exempt religion, but that is meaningless; AFAIK all religious organizations of a certain sort are tax exempt by their very nature. Unless there is some reason that it is important, I don't think it is relevant. Titanium Dragon 09:41, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I know that the CoS is not tax-exempt, and that they do not wish to be. While I don't know the exact process for becoming tax-exempt, I suppose that it might be a mark of progress in that a Satanic religion became tax-exempt? But yeah: I'm really not sure. -- CABHAN TALK CONTRIBS 15:22, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

HS Cabhan, O.T.O. is tax exempt. SoS is not since we don't accept money. The easiest way for a group to go tax exempt is to go though Universal Life Church ministries. You can also buy charters from groups already tax exempt. as usual, just trying to help. ISN Rv. MSM

History of Satan in Judaism

There are some very incomplete and assumption-based statements in these two sections.

There is a deeper history of Satan that actually arises within Judaism after its exposure to Zoroastrianism. It was under the Babylonian subjugation and subsequent freedom by Cyrus II the Great of Persia that influenced all of the dualities that Judaism and its descendents carry.

It wasn't before this that Satan was ever mentioned, because, before these times the idea of either Good or Evil being seperate from God was unthinkable. God caused happiness, and caused misery. Everything was explained in these terms until this very point in history.

See Ahura Mazda vs. Angra Mainyu.

Other Sources for this :

From Satan and the Forces of Chaos

"In the monarchic period in Israel (c. 1000-586 B.C.) in fact such a figure as a rival to God is intolerable. Suffering and calamity were considered to be directly sent or permitted by God. From her emergence as a distinctive sacral community committed to the worship of her God alone, Israel had come to terms with the current polytheism of the Near East. While not worshipping other gods, she recognized their worship by other peoples."

- John Gray, Near East Mythology

also...

- Peter Clark, Zoroastrianism, An Introduction to an Ancient Faith, pp. 154-155

In fact, from the entire Mystae conspectus on this, alone, one would have a great world of work on their shoulders to rework this article to reflect history.

HS, Great Job! I have a question though. From what I've read in Hermetics and Freemasonry and my own copies of Zoroaster's works and From O.T.O. Zoroastrianism isn't duality but Nihilism. Do you think that because the two philosophies have opposeing forces is what causes the confusion? To clearify Nihilism is about negatives and positives uniting and creating by their union. Thus the Masonic statement "The universe is at sex" meaning it is not at war. In Dualism you have opposites at war, conflicting, not joining, with the aim of one destroying the other. Also coming from a Jewish upbringing I was taught no heaven, no devil, no life after death. So I don't see Judaism as dualist either but monotheist. What I do see as dualist is Christianity and to some degree Islam though it is monotheist. You totally kick ass in your studies so I'm happily awaiting your reply. ISN RV.MSM

Non-Satanic Sects

I would like to dispute or at least ask for a source on the comment about in the 1950s Mormons commonly referring to the Roman Catholic Church as the "Church of the Devil" because of their elaborate ceremonies because it doesn't really make sense that they would. I'm not theologian of any sort but the Mormons are not without their own elaborate ceremonies if you look at all their rituals within the temples. So, it really doesn't make sense if a comment like this was made and since it is not sourced I have to wonder if maybe someone just added it in as a jab at Mormons.Zerase 23:55, 6 August 2006 (UTC)Zerase

Gnosticism

Although by no means an expert, I was wondering about some of the notations in the Gnostic sections of Satanism referenced, as I have had some exposure to study on the subject. To generalize, while these groups did equate the Old Testament God as the demiurge, most also saw the New Testament God as a true God and worshipped him, not to mention revering Christ as an emanation of God. The article phrased the way it is now would seem to indicate, at least to my mind, that the concept of an overarching deity was completely rejected by Gnostics. Further, while in most Gnostic belief the serpent did bless humankind with knowledge, in this is supposedly acted on the impulse of the 'True/Christ God' acting against the 'Demiurge'.

While there may be philosophical and ritual precedents for Satanism in Gnosticism (individual experience in regards to the divine, some of its more mystic characteristics, etc) there are also many deviances and differences, on some very fundemental grounds (worshipping of diety(ies), sacredness of material world, etc). As a result, I feel obleiged to express my concerns over the Ophites, Early Gnostics, and Valentinians mentioned in veiw of clarity.

For this one you guys might want to consult Mordi Shapiro he is a priest in the gnostic church whithin the O.T.O. Or contact some of your folks that are in your Thelemapedia. Though I was baptized in the EGC and given permission to use and adapt EGC rituals for SoS use, I never studied it too deeply. As far as Satanic, the closest they get is their Mass which is held every sunday in Berkley at sundown as well as many other lodges and camps around the world,. Just trying to help. RVMSM

Misleading and Innacurate Terms and Statements

This is more a rant about Satansim handled on Wikipedia in general.

First off, I'd like to comment that "Religious, Theistic, LaVeyan, Philosophical" are all misleading terms, really. LaVeyan is the only one that makes sense in its context, but thats rarely used by actual LaVeyan Satanists.

In general, the Satanism introductions are confusing. Anton LaVey (meaning LaVeyan Satanism) advanced first the idea that Satan is a Dark Force of nature. Yet thats listed as "religious" or "Theistic" Satanism. Why? Theistic implies a kind of God. Why not just leave it at "Theistic" Satanism as "religious" is innaccurate.

Why not call the LaVeyan article Religious (as it constitutes a religion as well as philosophy) and term the "Religious" article "Theistic." The labels are confusing and the information seems garbled.

HS, how about LaVey's system be Called Atheistic Satanism, Systems that involve a deity be called Theological Satanism and SoS will continue as Occult Satanism since it comes from Freemasonry which is founded in occult lore? Just trying to help as usual. ISN RvMSM

That would make more sense.

Semi-protected

I semi-protected this page to stop the revert war that has been going on.

To the one attempting to change the lead: if you have a source that indicates that a religion defined as "Satanism" existed in the 15th century, you can put it in the article, per WP:RS and verifiability. That it was invented by the Roman Catholics as a justification for witch-burning seems far-fetched to me, but once again, we use reliable sources, and indicate where we got our information. At any rate, that wouldn't belong in the lead, though: your edit looks a little like vandalism. Please discuss it here first. Thanks, Antandrus (talk) 22:46, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for protecting this page. I am dedicated to improving this article in good faith and according to Wikipedia policy; please forgive a few present issues with the article, I am aware of them and am in the process of reworking it section by section to further improve it. I fully support a neutral view of this topic, I merely wish to see it all done by the book. -Lvthn13 23:02, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

OK ... unfortunately I had to bump it up to full protection. Both sides are in violation of WP:3RR but since no warnings were given I'm not blocking anyone. I'm going to leave a note on the other user's talk page to come here to propose changes in the article and give sources. Antandrus (talk) 23:27, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Protection removed ... please discuss major changes rather than edit-warring. Should protection be needed again and I'm not noticing, you can report at WP:RPP or even WP:AIV depending on the nature of the edits. Antandrus (talk) 03:13, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Historic Use of the Term

I created this section to accomodate the fact that the term satanism was used historically, but in a different meaning than its present usage. Since we clearly do not live in the 16th century, the modern usage prevails as the primary topic of the article, and therefore that also should be the content of the lead (see administrator's comments above). Edits that elaborate on this should be sourced per Wikipedia policy, and should avoid use of weasel words or implications to detract from the content of the article itself. Thank you. -Lvthn13 23:21, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Further clarification: I do not dispute that the term Satanism (or satanism) was in circulation prior to the foundation of the Church of Satan. What I contest is that there was ever an organized religion by that name prior to the Church of Satan, and that the term was ever used by a person to describe himself as a religious designation. I do not know of any reliable source that can prove otherwise, and in the absence of such proof, it should be considered unsuitable for mention in an encyclopedia. This matter was in fact investigated in depth by LaVey himself, as he had a desire to uncover the roots of heresy and witchcraft; he specifically mentions in various literature assorted Hellfire Clubs, the Masonic movement, Knights Templar, and occultist groups (including Aleister Crowley), and concludes that while many of these groups were accused of being Satanists by others, none of them actually called themselves Satanists (Crowley strongly denounced the term himself). Therefore, as an actual religion, Satanism was founded by LaVey.

I have no problem with including a subsection on historic use of the term, and have already started such a subsection and used the very source provided by Jungle to reference this. That source seems to verify my own conclusion, that Satanism was a term used by the Catholic Church to accuse people of witchcraft and fuel the Inquisition, and that source seems to back the idea that no such real cult ever existed (it calls it an imaginary religion). So your own source is entirely in line with what I am saying.

Further, Satanism is an active, modern religion with many thousands of adherents worldwide (probably in the tens of thousands), and extant organizations promoting it. Therefore, I also suggest that in concordance with Wikipedia neutrality, respect for this modern religion is given in allowing it priority in definition as opposed to an obsolete use of the term as an insult (similar reasons exist for why Pagan is now a religious designation and not a derogatory term).

I have no problem with expanding the article within reason to discuss history, but all claims should be substantiated by reliable sources, and should be placed within context of the article itself, not allowed to push the real content aside by taking over the lead to the article with statements not reflective of the rest of the content. Do you have additional sources or information you wish to see considered? -Lvthn13 01:07, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Might it be more appropriate to, given this meaning is quite seperate from the religion Satanism, to make an article like Satanism in Christian Culture or Satanism (imaginary cult) or Satanism (Delusional Christian Hysteria) or something? It sems like it'd merit its own article and could be expanded on, while being significantly different enough to merit its own page. Titanium Dragon 02:41, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

That's actually an excellent idea. -Lvthn13 03:34, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree! Absinthe (Talk) 06:59, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Perfect! I personally think Satanism in Christian Culture would stay in bounds of the NPOV. Then Religious or Organized Satanism to reflect Dr.LaVey's system and will be accepted as the original Satanism (as far as philisophical/religious systems and organizations are concerned) then Post-LaVeyan or Theistic (Tradition and Religious are misleading terms) Satanism to describe those organizations and philosphies that formed after the CoS. But what of Satanism as a general term and will Satanism as a general term being given it's own article? My suggestion... "Satanism" should be used as the general term for any emphasis on Satan (whether as religion, art, philosophy, or christian concept), then "Satanism in Christian Culture" to reflect the various usages and history of the term in christianity, "Organized/Relgious Satanism" for solely LaVey's system, then "Theistic Satanism" for the post-LaVeyan systems. I'm just throwing out some lettuce and tomatos to see if someone wants to make salad. thank you.AlexanderLevian 22:16, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

All satanism is ridiculous. Jesus is better. It is all a lie.

66.228.245.11, Try signing your comments when you have the nerve to say them. Thank you. AlexanderLevian 00:58, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I have recently done something similar to what have have talked about. I kept the Satanism page to refer ONLY to LaVey's system and created a satanism (Disambiguation Page). Hopefully this will prevent any futher vandalism and irrelevant links on this article. Thank you and I await your replies. AlexanderLevian 04:13, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Good work. It's certainly a nice start, and now that this issue is hopefully settled, we can begin improvement on this article, which direly needs it. -Lvthn13 04:31, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Pure Bollocks

I don't really know how to add to this discussion properly...I am not a very savvy person when it comes to these types of things (posting in this discussion I mean).

However, this is the most biased take on Satanism I have ever read. It's the equivalent of an article on belief in God that only focuses on Judaism.

I wonder...how much did Peter H. Gilmore pay you to revise it in such a bullshit biased way? Did he give you one of those little red cards at a discount? Whatever the cost of your ethics as an "unbiased" whateveryouare, you should be ashamed for changeing the article in the way that you did. It in no way represents more than the Church of $atan's singular take on Satanism. There is much more to this belief system than you have written. If I am not mistaken, there is already a Wikipedia entry for the Church of Profit...I mean Church of $atan. Please do something a little less biased with this entry.

When I read it I threw up a bit in my mouth and wished that you'd been here to spit it on.

Type in "Theistic Satanism" instead of crying. You professed that you aren't a savy person and you might want to reexamine facts, like the one that Satanism was started by Anton LaVey. Period. There is no authentic, documented use of the term to describe an actual religion. Originally it was simple propaganda. So this article adresses the first codified, documentable, defined use of Satanism and its beliefs. There are other uses as well, which are covered in Wikipedia (Though the disambiguation page has vanished). Also your assumption that the Church of Satan is purely for profit is flawed. One, the Church doesn't demand that you be a part of it to be a Satanist. It would certainly be more profitable to do so. Two, originally the cost of membership was 13 dollars. It went up for varoius economic reasons (one being they actually pay taxes). And when you look at other organizations, you'll find annual fees, sometimes as much as eighty dollars, though I've seen them up to 120. Something else that would be more profitable. Go figure that the COS only charges one fee to be a member. And to everybody else, why is the disambiguation page gone? WerewolfSatanist 22:18, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

-Profit vs. non-profit is hardly the issue here. I also find this entry to be biased in the extreme. And I think that the person posting that you referred to was commenting on not being savvy in how the system works for posting something on this page; they didn't seem to be speaking in generalities about themeself as a person. Though they did do a good job of wrecking one of the other posts above; in a way that I found quite humorous, though blatantly irresponsible and immature.

If the church does not demand that you pay them to be considered a Satanist, then why aren't ALL Satanic beliefs listed here? If, by their (and your) own admission one can be a Satanist without being a member of the CoS, then why does the Wikipedia entry on Satanism centre around this one church? It smells of bias to me, though you will of course disagree. The starter of this particular area of discussion (Pure Bollocks) makes a good point. It IS similar to speaking of the belief in God and only mentioning, say, the Baptists.