Talk:Michael Roach

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I don't see any point in removing the discussion here - I think it speaks for itself. What I would suggest is that while you may sincerely hold the views that you hold, it is quite clear that you have an axe to grind. Very little in this article is backed up by any kind of primary source, and certainly the final paragraph is not. I personally think that it would be better for all concerned if this article were removed. However, if it is retained, it should at least conform to the standards of a wikipedia biography article - in particular, any libelous comments should be removed, and what is stated in the article should be backed up by references to primary source material. The article must not itself stand as primary source material, and also it must not use as primary source material web pages that are put up by bash groups.

Cheers

Ted Lemon

All Wikipedia articles must be written from a neutral point of view, representing views fairly and without bias. This includes all content, e.g. illustrations, reader-facing templates, categories and portals. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.56.209.129 (talk • contribs)

I'm not sure why the rest of this discussion was removed by the previous editor. I'm writing this now because I've made a change to the final paragraph of this article. I personally find the scholarship of this entire article questionable, since no references are given. Frankly, the final paragraph of this article seems out of place with the previous two. However, it seems unlikely that removing this paragraph entirely will work, since there are edit warriors waiting in the wings to put it back whenever it is removed.

I happen to have been in Dharamsala and Palampur at the time of the incident mentioned in the paragraph as it now stands, so I know that what is said there is at least an accurate rendition of what I was told happened by people who were present, and it's also in keeping with the letter that's quoted on the diamond-cutter site (I can't vouch for the accuracy of the letter, and much of what is said on that page contradicts what I know of the facts, but several people I've talked to say that the letter itself is perhaps legitimate).

The additional text that I removed is not backed up by any references at all, not even the supposed letter from His Holiness' office, and therefore does not belong in a wikipedia article. Since this article actually has no references to primary sources, it probably doesn't belong here anyway. Ted Lemon 00:42, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Answer: The valid reason is that contributors are unnecessarily bashing someone, and presenting it as fact. As if this resource was akin to an encyclopedia. As children we were raised to open encyclopedias as a resource for fact. Yet this page has become a forum for opinion. And it is not even offered as opinion - it is presented as truth. To pass moral judgments and post them as objective truth seems puritanical and dangerous. If this site is going to gain popular acceptance, editorial comments must be kept out. However, when a reader finds internet graffiti regarding someone they respect and admire, we are obliged to protest.

Therefore, in order to comply with that recommendation, each time we post about negative information (someone breaking vows) we should represent the view fairly by including a postive (supports monasteries, gives teachings away for free). This would not only be proper, it would be good mind training. In order to preserve that sense of fairness I have included an article on negative transferance in the link section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.56.209.129 (talk • contribs)

Talk page guidelines

68.56.209.129, please read WP:TPG. You seem to be missing several points about how to communicate on a talk page:

1. Do not remove any text, either yours or anyone else's.
2. Always put your response below the full message you are replying to. Do not add text in the middle of someone else's comment.
3. Use indentation. To indent, add one more colon to the beginning of each paragraph than the person you are replying to.
4. Sign your messages with ~~~~, which will add your user name or IP address and the time.
5. Please consider creating an account if you want to be part of the effort to work on and improve this article. People who edit without an account are frequently taken less seriously and their edits may be reverted or considered vandalism.

Hope this helps you communicate more effectively on WP. Ekajati 16:47, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

no reason to hide the critics on GMR

Hi there! It is mere a joke even to delete the link to the controversies related to him. The link lists as well statements (interviews, letters) given by GMR and HH the Dalai Lama. Please let the link there. Also it should be put in the article that there exists controversies about his lifestyle, this is WP Guideline. Please do not handle with controversies as the New Kadampa Tradition is used to do. Many Regards, Kt66 17:59, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I have no vested interest in Michael Roach and am not trying to hide anything. Please read WP:LIVING - all negative or critical material about living persons must be impeccably cited. Web sites created by critics are generally not acceptable as sources. Please give citations to printed books and journals. Again, read WP:LIVING and try to observe it. Ekajati 21:51, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Here is a quote from the policy which is applicable to the website in question:

"Information available solely on partisan websites or in obscure newspapers should be handled with caution, and, if derogatory, should not be used at all."

I think that is clear enough. Criticism and controversy may of course be reported, but require highly reliable sources such as published books and academic journals or other materials which undergo editorial verification. Ekajati 21:56, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi there. Thank you very much for improving the article. It says:

Information available solely on partisan websites or in obscure newspapers should be handled with caution, and, if derogatory, should not be used at all. this will not fit to the website I think (it lists different sources and also uses published material of GMR). What reason is there that the website is "solely partisan or obscure or derogatory"? At the time there may be no "published books and academic journals" but it is obvious that there is this controversy and that his behaviour contradicts the Pratimoksha/Vinaya. Just look at the foto and the rules. The WP guidlines are not for misusing to avoid critic. If it lists he is a buddhist monk and he acts the opposite it can be mentioned. By the way where you have found the WP guideline: Web sites created by critics are generally not acceptable as sources.? --Kt66 19:28, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi Ekajati. I think you can now agree just to put the self statements of him and what he puplished himself. This will avoid long discussions I think. For people who are interested in further views, they can follow the Alternative View Link. Thank you for your care and work, --Kt66 20:53, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

angel topic

Better, but I've had to reduce it a bit. Nowhere do you introduce a factual account that the woman was acting as a sexual consort. So I removed all the material that assumes that. The poem states that he worked with her "in the proper way" - it is perfectly possible in Vajrayana to use visualization and other methods of working with a partner which stop short of actual sex. You will have to find a reference in print in a book from a reputable publisher or academic journal which explicitly states what you claim. said by Ekajati

if it is visualized why he needs to have Christy McNelly and defending his behaviour? Speaking of her as his "angel"? In the interview he never refused that she is his consort. I myself heard from him speaking as a "dream wife"... See interview below. --Kt66 22:34, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

nothing is there about sexual consort, but of course we can not work without facts, so I will use his word "angel". When GMR stated he worked with her in a "proper way" then the question is; what he means with that? As a monk you should not even stay alone in a room with a woman together, not to speak of doing Yoga or "physical exercices" which both discribed as painful...I cite the interview:

Geshe Michael Roach:...But the gross physical act for me, I don’t think it’s disgusting or dirty or something like that, but it’s not interesting for me at all. You know, I don’t have any, it’s not something uplifting or it’s not an inspiring thing to do. I believe the sexual energy is exp…

Christy McNelly: yeah, powerful.

GMR in the interview elsewhere: Lots of injuries and hard days, and the heat is incredible. We had two very fine teachers coming and training us during the break times. People tend to focus on physical union, but 99% is, I mean the ballet is very typical. Your body has to be extremely well trained to even consider these things.

About what he is talking? --Kt66 07:52, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Angel & sources

If you can find such a source, I can counter with sources that many high lamas, such as Kalu Rinpoche, have worked with consorts and that it is actually quite common for lamas to do so in secret. Roach's trespass here from the point of view of tradition would only be the act of being honest about it rather than hiding it as is traditionally done. said by Ekajati

This with Kalu Rinpoche is hearsay, was told me by Dr. Alex Berzin; he said he was really to old to do that. It is not common at all. See the biografy of Tsongkhapa: he did the complete opposite he never had a consort he emphasized celebacy of course! Or just listen to HH the Dalai Lama - who is regarded as a genuine teacher:

"According to our tradition, we are monastics and are celibate, and we practice the Tantrayana simultaneously. But the way of practice is through visualization. For example, we visualize the consort, but we never touch. We never implement this in actual practice. Unless we have reached a stage where we have completely developed the power to control all our energy and have gained the correct understanding of sunya (emptiness, reality), unless we truly possess all the faculties through which those negative emotions can be transformed into positive energy, we never implement practice with an actual consort. Although we practice all the higher practices, as far as implementation is concerned, we follow Vinaya. We never follow according to Tantrayana. We can't drink blood!! (everyone laughs). In terms of actual practice, we have to follow the stricter discipline of Vinaya. In ancient India, one of the reasons for the degeneration of the Buddhadharma was the wrong implementation of certain tantric explanations." -from "Life as a Western Buddhist Nun Conference", Dharamsala, India, March 4th 1996

"As far as my own understanding goes, the two claims—that you are not subject to precepts and you are free — these are the result of incorrect understanding. Even though one's realization may be higher than the high beings one's behavior should conform to the human way of life. Criticize openly. That's the only way. The fact that the teacher may have done many other good things should not keep us silent." HHDL

Listen to Lama Zopa Rinpoche too...who said: If your conduct will be the way you explained in the letter then it will not be normal from the monasteries point of view or according to the monasteries point of view.--Kt66 22:34, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Roach's trespass here from the point of view of tradition would only be the act of being honest about it rather than hiding it as is traditionally done. said by Ekajati.

OK let's listen the traditional point of view:

Ordained Bodhisattvas may under no circumstances engage in sexual intercourse...

the text on the Bodhisattva Ethics goes on: Why may an ordained Bodhisattva never engage in sexual misconduct but may kill, steal or lie, since these are surely all defeats of the individual liberation vow? A defeat of the individual liberation vow is created the moment orgasm is experienced as a result of sexual intercourse, while in the case of the other activities, various factors must be present for the action to constitute a defeat. When a Bodhisattva who holds the individual liberation vow undertakes any of the other actions, these decisive factors must not be present and the ac¬tion must never constitute an actual defeat. For example, Bodhisattvas may never steal for their own benefit but may steal for the benefit of others. If an ordained Bodhisattva is in a position where sexual intercourse for another's benefit is unavoidable, the Bodhisattva must first give back the individual liberation vow and thereby become a lay person. These guidelines apply to ordinary Bodhisattvas—those on the paths of accumulation and preparation—who have the altruistic intention, hold the vow and are working for others through intensive practice of the six perfections. These Bodhisattvas have so much familiarity with their practice, gained throughout many previous aeons, that they are able to maintain a completely pure and virtuous state of mind from the preparation right through to the conclusion of any so-called negative action. Bodhisattvas may only perform such actions when they will be of great benefit to others, when no alternative means are available and no other person could perform the action. Strict criteria always apply and holding the Bodhisattva vow is never an excuse for in discriminate conduct. The higher vows do not purify any transgressions of the individual liberation vow nor is the tantric vow an excuse for unethical behavior which pollutes the Buddha's teaching. - Geshe Sonam Rinchen a well known genuine teacher in his commentary on the Bodhisattva vows (Snow Lion Publications, The Bodhisattva Vow, page 141,142, ISBN 1559391502)

Geshe Sonam Rinchen: If an ordained Bodhisattva is in a position where sexual intercourse for another's benefit is unavoidable, the Bodhisattva must first give back the individual liberation vow and thereby become a lay person.

in the interview with GMR he is asked: So because it must create confusion for people, I mean, it will create confusion for people... I mean, you’re a monk; you’re wearing robes, on the one hand, you’re a monk. You’re in the Gelukpa tradition, which has its own… I mean there’s the Sakya and the Kagyu and sometimes they wear robes, and they’re with women, and then people say, “Oh no they’re not really monks. They’re doing something else…” Now this is just going to create another level of confusion that requires clarification just upon first sight of you and how you represent the teachings. So how, I mean why stay a monk?

Geshe Michael Roach answers: When I took my monk’s vows, I swore: “Jisi tsoi bardu” means until the day I die, I’ll keep my vows. So on the one hand, I can’t give up those vows. I swore to keep them for my whole life. Secondly those vows are the power. Having kept those vows for my whole life. Pretty well, I mean no one’s perfect, right? But I’ve never broken them in a serious way. Having kept them carefully my whole life is why, is the only reason this practice has come to me. I didn’t ask for this practice. I prayed constantly for Vajra Yogini to come to me. One of the first things she taught me was to pray for her to come and stay with me. And I did that for years, every night before I went to bed. And so it’s the power of having kept my vows that in my perception has brought her to me, and to break them then is crazy. It’s the foundation of all accomplishments. It’s the goal of all mahayana monks who have tantric initiation to have Vajra Yogini come to you and teach you directly. That’s the goal of becoming an ordained person.

Geshe Michael Roach in that interview at another place: but if one emanation of Vajra Yogini told me that I should disrobe, I wouldn’t take it as literal, and I would never disrobe.

The difference here from the point of view of tradition

Tsongkhapas monks behaviour is seen as faultless:

"Tsongkhapa died at Ganden in 1419, at the age of 62. He attained enlightenment after his death by achieving an illusory body (sgyu-lus) instead of bardo. This was to emphasize the need for monks to follow strict celibacy, since enlightenment in this lifetime requires practice with a consort at least once." see Biografy of Tsongkhapa by Alexander Berzin

All together: My feeling is to justify GMR's behaviour he and his followers have no sense of shame to corrupt and discredit the buddhist monastic order. This is my feeling and this is what I with a great sense of shame and a deep feeling of embarrassing directly saw and hear from him in person by a public teaching. It is very pity. And because his behaviour is clearly seen as controversial - which is even accepted by him - it should be mentioned in the article with a further link. However, these are my last contributions. I can not spend my time in this way. All sources I used are reliable sources. That GMR and Christy Mc Nelly's and their followers sayings about Buddhism and the Buddhist Ethics are reliable is not guaranteed. Where there are people who find this good what GMR does and says, it is their choice.

Je Tsongkhapa warns on faulty Gurus, citing the Ornament for the Essence:

Distance yourself from Vajra Masters who are not keeping the three vows,

who keep on with a root downfall, who are miserly with the Dharma,

and who engage in actions that should be forsaken.

Those who worship them go to hell and so on as a result.

(see Tantric Ethics: An Explanation of the Precepts for Buddhist Vajrayana Practice by Tsongkhapa, ISBN 0861712900)

I conclude with HH the Dalai Lama and a conference of Western Teacher (GMR was missing there):

5. Particular concern was expressed about unethical conduct among teachers. In recent years both Asian and Western teachers have been involved in scandals concerning sexual misconduct with their students, abuse of alcohol and drugs, misappropriation of funds, and misuse of power.

This has resulted in widespread damage both to the Buddhist community and to individual involved. Each student must be encouraged to take responsible measures to confront teachers with unethical aspects of their conduct. If the teacher shows no sign of reform, students should not hesitate to publicize any unethical behavior of which there is irrefutable evidence. This should be done irrespective of other beneficial aspects of his or her work and of one's spiritual commitment to that teacher.

It should also be made clear in any publicity that such conduct is not in conformity with Buddhist teachings. No matter what level of spiritual attainment a teacher has, or claims to have, reached, no person can stand above the norm of ethical conduct. In order for the Buddha dharma not to be brought into disrepute and to avoid harm to students and teachers, it is necessary that all teachers at least live by the five lay percepts. In cases where ethical standards have been infringed, compassion and care should be shown towards both teacher and student.

(see: Open Letter to the Buddhist Community)

Take care, --Kt66 07:52, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

no reason to hide the critics on GMR - continue

Again, the website is partisan - it was specifically created to give a negative view of the subject, as and such, cannot be linked to. Of course, you may use any of the sources they refer to, as long as they are neutral rather than partisan, or vetted by having been published by a reputable publisher. The burden is on you to find suitable sources and cite them in order to meet WP:LIVING, which is non-negotiable.

If you find it parsian you can say this. But perhaps you see it as parsian because you are parsian too? It would be good to give reasons, why the website fulfills the criteria of

Information available solely on partisan websites or in obscure newspapers should be handled with caution, and, if derogatory, should not be used at all.

so what concrete is "solely partisan or obscure or derogatory"?

The article is also parsian because it offers just what GMR view is and that of his followers. So we have to delete the article too, is it? The website offers what it says: a different view and documents to it. I will revert some passages which you deleted, because they have sources. See the interview below it is not in contradiction of what GMR says. If we do not come to a conclusion with the link (which I will readd once more) we can ask a WP Admin or stuard. Thank you, --Kt66 22:34, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the work you've done so far though. :-) Ekajati 21:53, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Contradictions about his claims of having realised emptiness with 22

If GMR has realised the unconditioned, the ultimate truth, he is indeed a holy being from buddhist point of view, because he is quite free from gross mental afflictions (skt: Klesha). With such a realisation he is extraordinary. However, according to the Vinaya and Pratimoksha such realisations should never be expressed to laypersons. According to the Vinaya and Pratimoksha, which he has to follow because he is a monk, he should have NO close relation to ANY woman (except his mother or sister/family), no close contact and the like. However, when he is a holy being the sign is, that he has no gross mental afflictions (negative, disturbing states of mind) or can easily overcome it. This is contadictionary to what he told about his feelings, as he discribed it:

The Diamond Mountain, University & Retreat Center, PO Box 190, St. David, AZ 85630, USA published the following letter in 2003:

16 January, 2003

Dear friend:

As the three-year retreat here at Diamond Mountain enters its final months, we have received the following message from Geshe Michael Roach, which he asked to be relayed to you. He says that perhaps the most significant spiritual realization he can claim from the whole experience is that he has come to see what a big head he had gotten in the years before retreat, due to all the attention of people attending his talks and so on. He has also been confronted with his pride and arrogance, envy and competitive feelings, especially towards his fellow Dharma students and other western Dharma teachers. And he has come to see how badly he failed in working together with others like yourself, and in taking proper care to be open and up-front with everyone — especially his own Teachers — about his activities, their goals, and the personal history behind them.

And so he has asked us to make available a copy of the enclosed letters, which have been sent to His Holiness the Dalai Lama and to each of Geshe Michael’s major Tibetan Teachers. They describe a new direction that he will be working on especially after retreat, but most importantly they attempt to explain in a frank, honest way the personal experiences that have led to this juncture, and to Geshe Michael’s current practices and path. The letters are self-explanatory; Geshe Michael would like to share them now almost as an act of confession for his failings in the past; and with the hope that you will forgive them, and the prayer that when this retreat is ended he could have time to meet together and do whatever we can together to help the Dharma in this world.

Sincerely,

Retreat Caretaker Staff

Diamond Mountain Retreat Center

The next point is, GMR contradicts the Tantras as well because he declares in public his tantric experience (which is not for the public at all) and justifies his outer behaviour with secret meanings, mixing both levels together, boosting himself being more honest than the great masters claiming indirectly they acted like him. That's why the best method for proofing his attainments is what Lama Zopa Rinpoche advised:

Gelongma Palmo in order to destroy the heresy of the people of the city who believed she had broken her vows and to inspire them and bring them to enlightenment, she cut off her head and put it on a spear and danced in space and said “if it is true that I am not pure, not a fully ordained nun then my head should not come back, if it is true that I am pure then my head should come back”. Then her head came back on her body, like before, and that proved to the people in the city, the words of the truth. The head from the spear came back to her body as before, so everybody in the city completely believed that she did not have any mistakes and is pure, destroying all their wrong views and heresy and this caused them to have incredible devotion to her. (see the letter of LZR to GMR)

Did he something like this? Kyabje Serkong Dorjchang who claimed also to have realised a high level gave proofs by making knots into the horns of yaks, thereby he convinced HH the 13th Dalai Lama and received the titel of Dorje Chang. He also brought fruits from Shambala, never seen in this realm. So perhaps we have to wait what GMR will show in the future...until a perfect demonstration it can be doubted what he says, I think. --Kt66 09:49, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Copyright violations

Please do not put copies of sources on the talk page, that is a copyright violation.

Also, please do not break up or otherwise edit another editor's comments on the talk page: respond below them on the talk page. I will not respond to your comments if you do this. Please follow talk page guidelines. Thanks. Ekajati 14:59, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Dear Ekajati,

excuse please my break ups. I will not do it again.

Regarding the Copyright violations I can not follow: Where is the Copyright violation? The material is not protected by copyrights and where given free, without copyrights, by the internetsite of Geshe Michael Roach. Please give any proof where you base your argument upon of Copyright violations. Thank you very much. I will readd it below. Of course if there is indeed a violation that's my fault but I can see no copyright at the sources and it was published without copyrights. Thank you very much, --Kt66 18:42, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Why would you think it is copyright free simply because it is on the internet? Everything is copyrighted from the moment of creation, regardless of whether there is a copyright notice or not. Look at the bold text below the "Save Page" button: "Do not copy text from other websites without permission. It will be deleted." Ekajati 20:14, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I see no copyright violation. The material was public announced, downloadable, public adressed without any copyright note. we will see what other people say.

OK you seem to be as good in reverts as me ;-) The sources can be found at [1]

I have no problem if you inform an admin I would enjoy it. Never I met such a situation at WP. I accept. However, you gave until now no reason why my changes on the critics section is in any way by any mean against WP guidelines. So I will wait: Please tell exactly what is against what. Thank you. --Kt66 20:45, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

revert of Ekajati

Dear Ekajati, please be so kind to explain why you can not accept that the "angel-story" and the respond of Lama Zopa Rinpoche is included in the article. This is both a fact, both given based on reliable sources and a basis of the controversy around GMR. It is also not parsian, because it just list the quotes and what they said.

Secondly in the article the passage of argueing with Vajrayana is a view expressed by him and his followers and it is common to give another view if it is in a unbiased manner. To all the rules of WP there exist not contradiction in the article, as far as I can see it; so please don't revert without discussion and giving reasons. Thank you very much for your cooperation, I think you are as interested as me to have a proper, unbiased and nonparsian article. Thank you very much. --Kt66 18:52, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Angel & Vajrayana & the rest: Irrelevant!

In response to Ted Lemon's proposal that this article should not exist at all, I disagree in that I feel Michael Roach's accomplishments and sponsorships to date, in particular his attainment of Geshe, and his sponsorship of the Asian Classics Input Project, are by any reasonable reckoning a Wikipedia-worthy subject.

I do not dispute the fact that the subject has been hijacked to grind axes and promote contemporary agendas. On the one hand, to deny that there is a controversy by refusing any references to it (on the basis of vague accusations of libel) is a transparent gambit of the unmindful religious conservative.

On the other hand, Kt66's long and ignorant accusations of current misdoings based on irrelevant, boring, and fantastic religious precedents is the transparent gambit of the unmindful fanatic.

Take your pick, but keep it off Wikipedia, please.

St3veh 05:02, 23 September 2006 (UTC)