Talk:Serbia

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• /Archive 1:August 2003 - March 2006
• /Archive 2:April 2006 - May 2006

Flag

The article is displaying the wrong flag. The STATE flag of Serbia has a coat-of-arms on it, while the national flag doesn't. All the other countries have national flags displayed, shouldn't it be like that here too? Source: http://www.srbija.sr.gov.yu/pages/article.php?id=5412

Yes, this is article about state, and state flag is displayed. --Pockey 20:38, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I think we should re-think about it. Serbian case is not unique, as many other countries have different "state flag" and "popular flag". For example, see Flag of Austria, Flag of Norway etc—it is much more common to use the "popular flag" as the "main one"—as it is normally the more famous variant. Duja 15:40, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I know what you mean, but you will see which flag will be displayed on some sports game between Serbia and some other country. I think that it will be state flag of Serbia. --Pockey 15:50, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps we need a "common flags guideline". :) Aesthetically it looks odd to have a flag with the coat of arms, right next to the same coat of arms, but if it really is much the more common flag, fair enough. (Though equally it would be an option to use national flag + CoA in the infobox, and state flag in the body of the article as an extra illo.) And talking of the national arms... why the flip-flopping between two seemingly-near-identical images thereof? Alai 04:52, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Re flip-flopping: we are Serbs, ergo my version is always better than yours :-). Duja 06:52, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Re the commonality: I'm not sure what was the intent of the legislators. In most (all?) other countries, "popular" flag has a kind of precedence in the sense of national representation everywhere but on highly official levels. I agree with Pockey, though, that the version with arms has bigger presence in media (for no apparent reason to me, except that the situation is new in Serbia so people are not quite aware of intended usage)... and for the reason that we are Serbs so we have to be different :-)). Duja 06:52, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

The popularity of the be-escutcheon'd version doesn't surprise me in the least; it's much more distinctive than the other, especially given the large number of other states in the region whose flag is some-permutation-of red, white and blue horizontal stripes.

I really prefer the coat of arms that doesn't look like it's made of plastic, but what can you do... :) --estavisti 20:14, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

!&* mi sve, they look identical, at least on my Firefox 1.5.0.3. Is it your browser or...? I prefer SVG version for better scalability, but I don't see a big deal. Duja 07:40, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Serbia - country or republic?

I realize Serbia is a republic and still in a state union with CG. However, isn't it also a country (just one that is in a state union with another country)?Osli73 23:10, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

It'll be moot in two days, I heard Montenegro will declare independence this Saturday.--estavisti 10:21, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

New Infobox

It has been put in for the following reasons:

1. Sick of seeing the old one.
2. Serbia and Montenegro have functioned as independent states for several years, and had de facto separate foreign policies (two track EU negotiations). The Netherlands Antilles are considered worthy of a country infobox, althouh they are "an autonomous part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands". So Serbia (and Montenegro) having the country infobox should be OK. After all, the existence of the State Union (only another 2 days anyway) implies the members are states.

That's it. --estavisti 17:28, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the date - at the earliest we should be dating it from today (June 3) - but not a moment before Montenegro makes its declaration, or maybe from next week when Serbia formally declares independence. May 21 is simply not appropriate. As regards to 'state', although I'm not going to remove the country infobox, I note that the members of the United States are called that as well. Morwen - Talk 14:36, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Should Edit

Serbia is no longer a part of the now non-existent State Union, as stated on the Main Page and in most news outlets. The history section, in particular, should show this.

Strictly speaking, I believe that Serbia is in fact now the sole member of the State Union BovineBeast 21:34, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, no. It is a completely new country, just like Montenegro. The referedum dissolved the union, thus resulting in two new states, not just Montenegro.Хајдук Еру (Talk || Contributions) 01:40, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, the Constitutional Charter speaks of 'breaking away' rather than 'dissolving', and is rather unclear on the matter. BovineBeast 09:23, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that it's unclear, the Constitutiona Charter speaks of successor of the State Union of Serbia and Montenegro, meaning that Union ceasted to exist. Anyway, today Serbian Parlament accepted a declaration, that transfers all the jurisdiction from former Union to Republic of Serbia, and at same time, flags of former Union have been removed from goverment buildings, marking that there is no more State Union, and therefor Serbia is not the sole member of the State Union, but defacto a independant state.

Independence

Why the date of independence is July 13, 1878? It is the worst solution we can use here. Serbia was independent in the Medieval Ages long before 1878. Either we should use the first date of the independence of (medieval) Serbia, either last one (June 3, 2006). PANONIAN (talk) 02:49, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not an expert, but isn't that the last time Serbia has officially declared independence from something greater it was a member of? Technically, today's Serbia is the legally successor of Kingdom of Yugoslavia, Socialist Yugoslavia, Federal Yugoslavia, and "Serbia and Montenegro", never declearing indipendence from anything: the other parts ot the old yugoslavian state are the ones which separated.

For example: would you state that the current-day United Kingdom is a new independant state from the old one following 1 July 1997 when Hong Kong became chinese? Gbnogkfs 4 June 2006, 10:48 (UTC)

Well, I just saw a similar article, notably Russia, since Russia is regarded as successor of the Soviet Union. The article claim that Russia became independent in 1990, no matter that it is successor of the state from which it declared independence. In fact Serbia will tomorrow (On June 5) to declare that it taking competences from the state union, thus this is date we can use. PANONIAN (talk) 14:19, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the view of the UN and the international community was that the FRY was not the successor to SFRY - a position that the FRY refused to accept. This is why it was denied UN membership: because it refused to re-apply. Have a look at [1] for the opinion of the Arbitration Committee on this subject (obviously not our ArbCom though ;) Morwen - Talk 20:36, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Gbnogkfs: last time Serbia formally declared independence was this afternoon. :) I think that this date should also be mentioned in the infobox. Like Russia, for example, has been indepent for its first time way before Serbia. Still, its article mentions 1991 as the date of independence. Why should Serbia be an exception? Maybe we could have the independence box similar to the one on Estonia, where multiple dates are mentioned... Serbia has not been independent all through 1878 to 2006, so the other dates must also be mentioned. I'd support making it similar to Russia, like PANONIAN said. HJV 14:59, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Now we'll have to change all the maps that dont include the border between Serbia and Montenegro

This is more widely discussed on: Talk:Montenegro#Now_we.27ll_have_to_change_all_the_maps_that_dont_include_the_border_between_Serbia_and_Montenegro.--Greasysteve13 01:44, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

File:Location Serbia.PNG

--Greasysteve13 09:39, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Groan! This will take years. I think that every EU country, some further east and south, the EU and NATO maps and all the world maps will need to be changed.--Zhengfu 16:13, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

And then more fun if/when Kosovo becomes independent! ;) BovineBeast 08:12, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

You could just make a dotted line around ex-Yugoslavia and call it "Obscure Bunch of Balkan Countries", and change the map in 20 years' time when they've calmed down...HJV 22:47, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Samo sloga srbina spasava

I removed the "unofficial" moto of "Samo sloga srbina spasava". I think we were there before; the country does not have an official moto, period — this one is too controversial to be universaly accepted, even among Serbs themselves, let alone numerous minorities. At best, it could be mentioned as motto of Serbs, but can anyone recall a government official which uttered those words publicly? That goes in the same basket to Three-finger salute (Serbian). Duja 12:06, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

For whom is it controversial? People might not like it, but it doesn't change the fact that it's the popular motto of Serbia. It doesn't matter that a government official hasn't ever used it. Have you ever heard of "Honi soit qui mal y pense" or "Dieu et mon droit"? No UK official ever "uses" them (however you "use" a motto), nor do many Brits (the few that have even heard of these two mottos). By comparison, Samo Sloga Srbina Spasava has huge popular support, and is even represented (as popularly but errouneously believed) on the national flag. Even the people who don't like it recognise its status as an unofficial national motto. I see no problem with putting it in the infobox and noting that it's unofficial. --estavisti 20:29, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

This is popular motto of Serbs, not Serbia, and you san put it on article about Serbs because only Serbs use it anywhere. It is most important that government used it or not. This motto has never used officialy and we can't say that this is motto of Republic of Serbia. This motto also can be motto of Republika Srpska if we think like you. --Pockey 22:22, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

And Serbia is the nation state of the Serbs, with various minorities who are also citizens. Surely, then, the motto of the Serbs is relevant, especially as it's so widespread. It may not be official, but the motto of Serbia is, de facto, Samo Sloga Srbina Spasava. Also, I reject your last point. Of course Republika Srpska can be said to have the same motto. It's a Serb entity with 90% of its population Serb. So what? That has no bearing on what we're discussing - whether to include the popular motto of Serbia in the article. --estavisti 11:40, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, motto of Serbia can be Živela Srbija!, Volim Srbiju!, or Srbija do Tokija!. You must put specific source that Serbia have its motto. Whitout that this article can not contain so called Motto of Serbia. --Pockey 21:02, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

And Serbia is state of all citizens of Serbia, not only Serbs. There is about 65% of Serbs in Serbia. This motto is used mostly by Serbian nationalists. You don't have proof that this sentence is the Motto of Serbia. Wrong informations can't be on Wikipedia. --Pockey 21:14, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

My two cents: Although "Samo sloga Srbina spasava" is widely used, it's not really what we are looking for. It's not on national amblems, nor is it mentioned in any documents etc. A solid national motto is probably American e pluribus unum or French liberté, égalité, fraternité. What I propose is that we use: Motto: no official one with a footnote. Otherwise, SSSS is as official as "smrt fašizmu" or "ajmo, ajde, svi u napad". --dcabrilo 21:29, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Hmm seing the Flag and Coat of Arms of Serbia (see the CCCC simbols) i think we can see the motto "Samo Sloga Srbina Spasava" as an real motto. It's used by many Serbs....in the years against the wars between the Ottomans too. This is an very old motto. Mostly used by Serbs of course.

Reading this arguments of Pokrajac where stands: "And Serbia is state of all citizens of Serbia, not only Serbs. There is about 65% of Serbs in Serbia. This motto is used mostly by Serbian nationalists. You don't have proof that this sentence is the Motto of Serbia".

In all countries of the world are minoritys of some people. That is maybe their land too but watch France. They have around (some unknown) percent of muslims and still the motto of this land is Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite. This motto comes from the Francais revolution. You can compare it with the resurrection of the Serbs against the Ottomans.

SerbiaAndMontenegro 09:42, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Maybe I can understand your wish for putting motto in article but as Dcabrilo said it's not on national amblems, nor is it mentioned in any documents. You must give some source (document) where we can see this sentence is motto of Serbia. --Pockey 10:35, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Please have a good sight at the following link and emblem: [[2]]. This is an national emblem of Serbia and its also used at the Coat Of Arms and at the Serbian flag. What do you see in the shield of that two Eagles? CCCC= Samo Sloga Srbina Spasava :).

They won't place CCCC at their Coat Of Arms and their flag if it wasn't the motto of Serbia.

I will search some documents to prove if i can but im not sure i will find some documents. But these reasons (above) may be enough to place the motto CCCC at the Serbia wikipedia page. SerbiaAndMontenegro 09:09, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

This CCCC on shield, my friend, is not SSSS :). It is four ocilo's (sr. ocilo or ognjic). Please read this (SR) document where you will find explanation of Serbian Coat of Arms. Also, you can read article about Serbian CoA here. Regards, --Pockey 13:34, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, "Само слога Србина спасава" is kind of backronym – the original coat of arms certainly wasn't made with that idea in mind. Duja 14:14, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

SSSS of "Samo sloga srbina spasava" is many times used (not seriously) as "Srbin srbina sekirom sece", or "Samo slanina sarmu spasava", so it lost it's true meaning. ---Adamantum---

Republic changed to country

I changed of the first sentence from landlocked republic to country in recognition that Serbia was declared independent today but that was reverted by another editor. I reverted back to country for two reasons.

1. the word country and not a description of the government form is used in most country article introductions. The name Republic of Serbia is also listed at the very start anyway.

2. Although some country articles - a minority - do used forms like republic in the case of Serbia it is better to use country now to clearly distinguish between the current status as an independent country and the former status a republic in Yugoslavia and later Serbia-Montenegro. I imagine this is the reason why non of the other articles on former Yugoslav countries use the word republic instead of country.

Country is just the clearer term and is the most widely used in such articles. Republic has had too many other meanings (besides fully sovreign republic) in Serbia's recent history to be a good alternative for simply country.

If anyone objects and prefers republic please state explain why.--Westee 20:03, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Although republic is technically correct it isn't as clear as country. The latter is especially importnat now that Serbia is an independent country.Osli73 20:14, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Successor state - new section on technicalities

I think this would be good / useful to add a section on the legalities around the dissolution of SCG and to what extent Serbia will be the successor state of SCG. Would anyone be ready to do it? Do you have any good links/sources for this?

My understanding was that Serbia will be the successor state to SCG: Serbia will inherit SCGs seat at the UN, Serbia will inherit progress made in talks with the EU, Serbia will inherit all intl. agreements and treaties, Serbia will, until an agreement has been arrived at, inherit SCGs national debt and foreign assets (such as embassies and the like). However, I don't have any good sources/links for this. Osli73 20:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

The BBC says basically the same thing [3]. --Delirium 00:12, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Debt was already divided some time ago - when Montenegro economic and monetary affarirs were separated from Serbian such. The SiM union has only 5 ministeries - military, foreign, human and minority rights, internal&external economic. The last two were only assisting dublicate institutions in the republics themselfs (both were negotiating separate WTO memberships, EU uses twin-track approch in most aspects of SAA negotiations). So the dissolution will mean the following: transfering human rights to a respective institutions in both republics; dividing up military - depending on territorial location (of assets) and nationality (of soldiers) - this process was already advanced (eg. practicaly Montenegrins serving in Montenegro, Serbs - in Serbia); establishing of Foreign Affairs ministeries in both republics (it looks like Montenegro already has one) and dividing SiM property abroad (mostly diplomatic missions) - most probably property will be divided in the same ratio as debt before that was similar to the population ratio (like 6%:94%). Anyway a better place for such text is the Serbia and Montenegro article, not here... 212.36.8.100 04:58, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Independence date

Currently there are two dates - Ottoman and SiM dissolution. OK. But should it be "Dissolution of Serbia and Montenegro" or "Succession of Serbia and Montenegro" or something like "Dissolution of Serbia and Montenegro (successor state)"? 212.36.8.100 05:22, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Why landlocked?

What is the significance of including "landlocked" in the introduction? This is already very clear from the map and only makes the text sound odd? I move to take it out. Anyone against? Osli73 13:27, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, it can be found on Hungary Slovakia etc. --Telex 13:30, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

It is normal to indicate if a country is landlocked. Politis 15:44, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I fail to see how is this so essentialy pertaining to the very definition of the country, i.e. the opening sentence. Its presence elsewhere is a sort of argument indeed, but having a bad thing elsewhere is also not a reason for spreading it further. Duja 15:51, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

If I understood you correctly, are you saying that you object to 'landlocked' because it is a "bad thing"? How can a geographical location have an ethical dimention? Politis 16:09, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

What I think he means is that the people who are putting it think it's some sort of bad thing. It's hardly a defining characteristic of the state that it doesn't have a coastline. Do the articles on Hungary, Slovakia, the Czech Republic etc have that fact in the very first sentence? NO. --estavisti 18:50, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

To clarify: I wanted to say what you said in your second sentence -- it is not a defining characteristics. OTOH, atricles on Hungary, Slovakia, etc. do have that in the very first sentence. The "bad thing" I referred to was the, in my opinion, bad style which is getting copied over and over across articles. Why aren't there also important attributes like "mountainous", "industrialized", "small", "poor", "democratic" as well? Why is only "landlocked" so big deal? Duja 07:10, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I just thought it seemed like an odd thing to say when describing Serbia. Surely there must be other, more interesting and descriptive, things to say in an introduction? Osli73 19:00, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

This isn't an argument that is exclusive to Serbia. Just about every landlocked country has this term in its intro. See Czech Republic, Austria, Bolivia, Zambia to name a few random landlocked countries I could think of to verify consistency. Landlocked seems like a reasonable thing to mention in an intro - since many people reading the intro will be focused on a very general introduction to the country, and landlocked is a very general term with some widespread implications: geographically, economically, politically, for instance. Is it a defining characteristic? Well, no, but it does help to define the country. Is there ever any one term that defines a country?

Regarding the suggested attributes "mountainous", "industrialized", "small", "poor", "democratic". I suppose these are all fine terms to use in introductions, but they're far less concrete than a term like landlocked. Many countries have "mountainous" regions - but that hardly makes the entire country mountainous. And just about every country would like to consider themselves industrialized, but there are a so many different degrees to industrialization, it's hard to use it as a descriptive term. "Landlocked" isn't a term that leaves a lot to the imagination - it is comparitively much more descriptive than the others.

In my mind, "landlocked" is something that should be left in, for consistency with virtually every other landlocked country intro, and because it is a very short, concise and descriptive adjective to use for a country.

Warthog32 23:51, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

It is interesting, perhaps, that this is being disputed over this particular subject. I believe it is yet an issue of contention in some regions that Serbia has still not obtained access to open water, i.e. the Adriatic or Black seas... Maximilli 18:43, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Current event?

Should we remove current event tag? The referendum and independence proclamations are over, nothing new will not happen here, so why the tag is still here? PANONIAN (talk) 19:09, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

No, beacose is hapen somthing now, im Kosovo. For one-two week Serbia and Kosovo are going to be regotnesed seperet or together. Serbias status is now in question if Wojvodina wount to sepred or not. The UN-Securty countries hase disedet bun they need time to procamed thate. The futer buged and every thing alls is sepreted , Kosovo is independent in this case (this judical agreemend was disedet and from each said acceptet). Putin is saying thate Kosovo is the presidencian case. China is agree with thate.--Hipi Zhdripi 19:39, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Kosovo is not part of Serbia

Till the discussion in Wien is not over Kosovo is not part of Serbia (See:Rez. 1244 there is no paragraf in wicht s standing "Serbia", please dont speculete). We dont need no ropagander here. The serbs are saing that Kosovo is part of Serbia, the Kosovars are saying thate Kosovo is indepedent. Beacose of hate this article is not NEUTRAL The only documents wich is prufing thate are the Serbian documents. --Hipi Zhdripi 19:27, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps you are trying to point out that Belgrade has no real jurisdiction over Kosova; that is correct and this can imply that it is not part of Serbia. But we have to follow international convention as layed out in the UN and as such, Kosova/o is part of Serbia until either Belgrade cuts itself off or the international community recognises an independent Kosova. Until then, we can still see clearly that it is separate from Serbia, but we have to respect international convention. Politis 19:34, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

No, no, no. Kosova, Serbia and Wjvodina are sepereted member of the Yugoslavia and no one of them is recodnezed alls state. The RS Serbia was not recodnezed (Srbia is onl a region in RS Serbia withaot status). Kosova and Wojvodina has veto right in Yugoslavia but not Serbia. See the Yugoslavian constition. The region of Serbia has oly veto in RS Serbia but not in Yugosllavia. This region it was "puffer zone" betwen Vojvodina and Kosovo.--Hipi Zhdripi 19:47, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

You should wait the end of negotiations in Wiena. I think that this has been allready discussed here. Kosovo is part of Serbia still, and you can see that on all these maps on every article. --Pockey 19:36, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

The End in Wiena. Now is in Prishtina.--Hipi Zhdripi 19:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Could you put relevant souce for this claim about neogotiations? --Pockey 19:44, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

The last meeteng in Wein it was the last at all. Now they are going to meet in Prishtina. This type, how is his name the cordinator is backe from China and is saying that the las meeten is ging to be in Prishtina. --Hipi Zhdripi 19:50, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

See his interwiev--Hipi Zhdripi 19:51, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

OK, but negotiations are not finished still. It is not important where they are. --Pockey 19:54, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

No this is somthing ells. In this meeteng Kosovo is going to regotnez Serbia als state, and Srbia is going to regodneze Kosovo alls state. After thate the UN members are going to regotnez both states (I dont kwno what is hapen with Wojvodina).--Hipi Zhdripi 20:06, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I think that Wojvodina should be sovereign sate soon as posible. Momentary, there are some liberty armies who wants to release poor people from Serbian tyranny. --Pockey 20:15, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

How I say, I dont know for Wojvodina, but in Sandjak durin last thre moths was more than four bomb exsplostion.--Hipi Zhdripi 21:00, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

So what? Last month in Belgrade was bomb explosion. --Pockey 23:36, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

---

The Police (500 policeman: 19 sebians and the others albanias, bosnjaks and UN-police) and KFOR (new base) is rouling over Nord part of Kosovo to prepare for eache "criminal act" after the soulution is going t obe proclamered. Some ethic serbs in nord Kosovo are praperted to demostration. They saye they have called "amergensy state" situation. I think this is cleare for wicht solution is going to bee proclamnted. Petersen is ill in Skopje and now is bac in Prishina (22:00h).--Hipi Zhdripi 20:01, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

And when such solution will be proclaimed? Do you have some link about that? PANONIAN (talk) 20:21, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

The Police and KFOR need some one or two week to "clean" the north part from Millosheviq supporters. But the clesan info for the day in wich is going to hapend is secret.--Hipi Zhdripi 20:48, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

And how you know for this then? :) PANONIAN (talk) 20:54, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Oj, not another crazay, neverending Kosovo is/not a part of Serbia debate. It's been going on at the Kosovo article for quite some time now (where most people, except, predictably, the local Kosovar Albanian, agree that the province most certainly technically/legally is a province of Serbia, but under UN administration. Check out the talk page for evidence of this by the truckload. Osli73 20:56, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

My friend the Kosovo Mission is over. (23:10 /Radio RTK News/ NATO is anding more trups in Kosovo). Now I dont know wich is the next Mission Sandjak or Vojvodina. For thate this is the article for wich we are going to discusse. Millosheviq prophety "Is not question only Kosovo, but Kosovo is a key" it beacame thru.--Hipi Zhdripi 21:04, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I do not listen Radio RTK, so do you have some Internet source for your claims? PANONIAN (talk) 21:09, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Hello! How can you understand that Hipi guy? His english is so bad that i can't get it. Hipi, please, translation needed! Do you speak any other language in a bit higher level? ELADIKI

Successor state to Yugoslavia

I know that this is too early to talk about, but the article reads the Serbia "remain[s] the successor state to the State Union of Serbia and Montenegro". So does that mean that by transitivity, Serbia is also the successor state to Yugoslavia (since before, Serbia and Montenegro is regarded as the successor state of Yugoslavia)? Because if such is the case, then the statistics related to the international participation of Yugoslavia (i.e. medals won in Olympics, beauty pageants won, number of terms and positions held in international bodies like UN) will now be attributed to Serbia, as may be referred to in footnotes (like Russia to USSR).Joey80 05:13, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Which Yugoslavia do you refer to? Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (later renamed to Serbia and Montenegro) was not the (sole) successor state of Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia—although it claimed to be for a while. That claim, however, was denied by United Nations and many other international organizations (European Council e.g.), and FRY had to reapply for membership in several of them. Thus, the rest of your question lies on a wrong premise. Some lesser international organizations (FIFA, notably, as far as I can tell, I'm not sure about MOC) did accept succession and thus counted the old SFRY medals etc. on FRY's account. Duja 07:09, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

"Newest" country?

In the Wikipedia article on Montenegro, that country is claimed to be the newest country in the world. Montenegro declared independence on June 3 - but Serbia declared independence two days later, on June 5. Does that imply that the Republic of Serbia (and not the Republic of Montenegro) is the newest country in the world? Or do these two countries share the title? Or is Montenegro the newest country in the world - since Serbia is the sole sucessor state to Yugoslavia/SCG?

In my opinion we can't say that Serbia is the newest country. They were the leading force of the old Yugoslavia so Montenegro is the newest country in the world. Deliogul 21:07, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Serbia is the union successor so the statement that Montenegro is the newest is correct (though false on the other side as Montenegro was independent before)

Map of cities

This newly added map of the cities hidding the text behind it (at least on Opera browser). Can somebody correct that? PANONIAN (talk) 22:49, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Corrected that myself. :) PANONIAN (talk) 23:38, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Fact tags

I added fact tags to "occupying forces committed atrocities against Serbs and Jews" because it's not well-known, and should therefore be cited. The was the same reason I tagged "supported the army" later on. MSJapan 02:21, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Economy data

Why are many of the economy figures (GDP, etc.) taken from the factbook page on Serbia and Montenegro? This is certainly inaccurate. -- ran (talk) 15:59, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not the one who added the data but:

• I agree with your statement that it is inaccurate, among other things, because government is not aware of all the business going on. It may have an agenda tweaking some of the numbers, but this is the same for any source of such information for any country.

• I don't see any particular source I could fully trust for any given country anyway. Any other / foreign institutions know have a lot less information and they also have their own agenda, so their numbers cannot be trusted either.

• In that case there really is just one information that can be posted anyway - the official one, however inaccurate it may be.

--Aleksandar Šušnjar 16:13, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

This data is fine for now until data is available for the republic of Serbia as a country alone.--Kungfu Adam ^(talk) 16:32, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

But the data is patently wrong. It is given as that of Serbia and Montenegro. The article does not even mention that the data applies to Serbia and Montenegro, it just gives them as the data for Serbia. -- ran (talk) 18:59, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't know where the data is coming from. If it is coming from Serbia & Montenegro government site it might be correct because data is also published per republic. In any case, I found the following for those who have the nerve to comb through the numbers: Republic of Serbia: Quarterly Gross Domestic Product, at constant prices 2002 - 4th Quarter 2005. --Aleksandar Šušnjar 03:08, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

• In this moment we can't use economic data from any source from Government of Republic of Serbia or NB of Serbia for Republic of Serbia wikipedia article, bcs this sources include only economic data for Central Serbia&Vojvodina province and exclude economic data for Kosovo province. Republic of Serbia consist of Central Serbia, Vojvodina, Kosovo.

If we exclude economic data for Kosovo province which was in 2004. - 1.68% larger than economic data for Montenegro[4], the final economic data result will differ even more.

Until the futur update of economic data from IMF, WB and CIA factbook for Serbia (Serbia&Montenegro succesor) which all include cumulativ economic data for the part of Serbia administered by Serbian Government (Central Serbia&Vojvodina province) and Kosovo province administered by UN Administration, the current data from CIA will stay.

Thus, we will include assumption that the economic data for Serbia may be reduced for approximatly 6% (avarage rate of Montengro GDP part in Serbia&Montenegro GDP totall in 2003-2006 period) and the economic data from IMF source will be added. -- Gaston28

Official status

Ukrainian is not official language in the Serbian province of Vojvodina. No matter what some (uninformed) journalist wrote in that external link, here you can see official web site of the government of the Autonomous Province of Vojvodina: http://www.vojvodina.sr.gov.yu/Engleski/vojvodina.htm Quote: "The Statute of AP Vojvodina stipilates that the official languages, besides Serbian, are Hungarian, Slovak, Rumanian, Ruthenian and Croatian." Ukrainian is not mentioned, thus, not official. PANONIAN (talk) 21:08, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Template:Infobox Serbia

Hi people,

A better place for this would be WP:SER, but as I'm not sure about its activity.

Currently there's no consistent infobox for Serbian towns and cities and have uploaded maps of all/most Serbian municipalities into commons:Category:Maps of Serbian municipalities and merged the look of {{Serbian cities 3}} (used in some articles) into {{Infobox Serbia}}. However, before attaching the template to the articles, I'd like to have an agreement in advance about its contents—once you change the contents of the infobox, a whole lot of articles would have to be updated. After an agreement has been reached, we should put up our sleeves and attach it to appropriate articles.

So, for all interested: please visit Template talk:Infobox Serbia and suggest improvements. Duja 08:13, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Superfluity of images

I removed several images of Đerdap and others on which we can see mountains and waters in Serbia. Those pics must be on articles about nature or flora and fauna of Serbia. Here was a lot of saints. I left only one because this article is not about Serbian Orthodox Church, but Serbia. We should see other articles about European countries. They are whitout many pictures and galleries. --Pockey 14:33, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Serbian Wikipedians' notice board

I just started regional Serbian Wikipedians' notice board, which is a place where questions and problems about articles related to Serbia and Serbs should be discussed. So, if anybody have problems with some articles or need help about something, it is right place to discuss it. Here is the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Serbian_Wikipedians'_notice_board PANONIAN (talk) 14:51, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

In the part of article about demographics in Serbia, most of text is about demographics of Serbian subdivisions. Isn't that wrong, because subdivisions have its own articles. Ie, there is ethnic composition of province of Vojvodina, but not one of Serbia itself.

External links

I have noticed paradox on list of external links. There are two links who are "most visited sites in Serbia". According to Alexa.com, b92.net is the most visited web site in Serbia. But User:Manp (talk · contribs) does not think like that, and he is putting krstarica.com like most visited site. So, can anybody tell can we have two most visited sites on the list? --Pockey 22:59, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

User Pokrajac a.k.a. Pockey obviously doesn't accept Wikipedia's objective approach, and that no personal or religious beliefs are supposed to be expressed through this site.

His qualifications on website B92 could be his personal belief and view which is not corresponding to real true fact. He used one source for his claim and then he asked me to put source for my claim, which I did and then he intentionally [removed it], so he can keep promoting his favorite site (B92).

The only logical approach is to remove all superlatives and claims (as advised in Neutral point of view (NPOV), an official policy on Wikipedia). I have removed all "most visited" like qualifications from the article, but user Pokrajac keeps undoing this change over and over again.

Manp 08:26, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but you can not say which web site is my favorite. We are not house friends. Obviously you are ignoring Alexa.com research where B92 is most visited web site in Serbia. And ok, if you want there is no need for superlatives, but do not write wrong informtions on article Krstarica about "most visited site", and confesse reality, your site is not most visited. Regards, --Pockey 12:32, 3 August 2006 (UTC) --Pockey 12:32, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Alexa.com is not a research company. They just provide information collected from their toolbar installations, not using research methods like Nielsen//NetRatings. --Manp 19:23, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Alexa is not a research company, but Yutrend is completely irrelevant: there is no data about their research methodology. And, comparing significance of Serbian local activities to alexa.com (US company) and to yutrend.com (Serbian company) -- I can say that Yutrend researches are more disputed then Alexa data. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 22:40, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

War crimes

War crimes are a very important element when describing Serbia. War crimes have been an integral part of Serbian nationalism, which has been the main main ideology of Serbian political leadership in the past 200 years. Any entry about Serbia without war crims will be defficient.

I find it odd that the issue of ICTY cooperation is not mentioned, particularly in the context of Serbia's EU aspirations. This is a major issue in Serbia's international profile, which has effectively blocked Serbia's path to EU and NATO membership. It also presents a serious challenge to Serbia's current democratic leadership, who do not bear responsibility for the crimes committed in the 1990s. Would anyone object to a few sentences about it? Something in the history section like:

"Serbia's post-Milosevic democratic leaders have said that membership in the EU and NATO is a priority for Serbia. In October 2005, the EU open negotiations with Serbia for a Stabilization and Association Agreement (SAA), a preliminary step towards joining the EU. The EU formally suspended these talks in May 2006 after EU officials determined that Serbia was not cooperating fully with the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY). In particular, the EU has demanded the handover of indicted war criminal Ratko Mladic who is widely believed to be in Serbia. NATO has also said that Mladic's handover is a pre-condition for Serbia's membership in the NATO Partnership for Peace program. Serbia's leaders have insisted that they are already doing all they can to arrest Mladic." Envoy202 00:56, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Internet domain

I put a "sources needed" tag on the area of the countrybox that says .sp is Serbia's Internet domain. I somehow doubt that this has been declared yet, I get the impression that SP has only been proclaimed as Serbia's ISO-3166-2 code just a few days ago, and that no corresponding decision on its TLD has been made. I also gather that .yu is still heavily in use (after all, its previous ISO 3166-2 code was CS and the .cs domain remained unused for the 3 years of its existence). I suggest changing it to what was before, like what is on Montenegro's page, it too has just had its ISO 3166-2 code announced (ME) but the .me TLD hasn't been created yet (see the talk on the .me page, and the "Wikipedia is not a crystal ball" note that appears there.) I suspect taht someone was engaging in their own crystal ball for Serbia. (It does seem all but certain it *will* be .sp, but it hasn't been declared yet. And after it does, I suspect .yu will still be hard to get rid of.) --Canuckguy 20:03, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

They did declare it, I remember hearing all about it on the RTS Newscast (Radio Television Serbia). It may not be official yet, but the decision was made - thats the difference between the Serbia and the Montenegro situation. I actually think that it would be better to leave the .yu, add one of those ¹ and at the bottom write that it will soon be officially changed to .sp. --GOD OF JUSTICE 03:39, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

As far as I've read that news, .sp was only counter-proposed by ISO to Serbian proposition of .rs. It certainly isn't accepted (yet) as such, and certanly not by W3C. .yu is still the official internet domain for all practical (the .yu domain names are still being issued) and formal purposes (new TLD, if any, not officially accepted yet). Duja 07:05, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

814???

Serbia... founded in 814...? Uhh.... could anyone try to elaborate this??? --HolyRomanEmperor 20:45, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Quite simple:

Europe in 814

Хајдук Еру (Talk || Contributions) 22:55, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

...and? That Map bears no incinuation that Serbia was founded in 814, doesn't it? Besides, please refer to the article Serbian lands. There, you will see all the Serb factions throughout the history and you'll notice that only Ceslav's 10th century realm was AFAIC "Serbia". --HolyRomanEmperor 17:29, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

New article on Kosovo

I've added a new article, Constitutional status of Kosovo, which discusses the various constitutions of Serbia and Yugoslavia as well as the current situation. It would be very helpful if knowledgable editors could have a look at it and add any comments to Talk:Constitutional status of Kosovo. Thanks in advance. -- ChrisO 19:58, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

The Inclusion of the name "Servia"

A couple of days ago (started 22 September 2006) the addition of "and originally known as "Servia" " was added to this page by a user, which kickstarted a little tit-for-tat reverting of pages to and from this edit.

I had heard of the name servia used once before (sometime this year in a UK newspaper, I think the Times) dealing with a world war gift from the queen to war veterns from the UK, one other country (I can't remember) and "Servia", which was not known to be which country) for their sacrifice in the great war (WW1), so I did a bit of research into the name. So far I got the following:

"Extract from Nuttal Encyclopedia, regarding servia 1907" This link does not explicitly link Serbia with Servia of the time, but there are similarities in the description, which bear resemblence to serbian history (especially the dates of 1815 (serbian uprising) and 1389 (battle of kosovo))

Servia article, 1911Encyclopedia This one states Servia as the name in english, with the translation as "Srbiya", or serbia. It also talks about a city within these lands called "Belgrade"

1901 Treaty between Great Britain and Serbia This one is of interest as its title reads: "Treaty between the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and Serbia [Yugoslavia] for the Mutual Extradition of Fugitive Criminals" On the first line, and the latter text makes reference to serbia as "Servia" and to its king as being Alexander. This link is from Australia, because as part of the commonwealth, all UK laws were applicable to its empire.

It would seem that at the very least, the UK and its empire used the name "Servia" for the then Kingdom of Serbia. Would this not warrent its inclusion? As shown in the UK newspaper this year, this name is still used, and many people do not know which country it refers to (neither did I up until a short while ago). As such I feel it should be included, either in this article or the "Kingdom of serbia" one.

Also many of the maps in the article (and indeed the one about 814 above, are labeled "servia", I don't think this is a typo).

So far the only argument against is from PANONIAN with "Do you see "v" here: Sorbs". This I feel bears little relevence in this discussion at the moment, as its to do with a completely different time period (we are currently discussing the 1900's). I think this was to do with the original submitters summary which states that "servia" is the name given to the area by the settling serbs.

About this point in particular, I set about doing some more research and I came across this link which states "In the seventh century the forefathers of the present Serbs, a tribe of the southern Slavs, migrated into the country, which received from them the name of Servia. During the Middle Ages and well into modern times the term included not only the present Servia, but also Bosnia, Herzegovina, Montenegro, and the northern parts of Macedonia and Albania." which would back up the original submitter, but so far I have not found any other references, so I belive more research and verification is needed before we can decide upon the time period where "servia" is used as the name.

I may be missing something, which results in this not being included in the article at all, in which case, feel free to post it here, for the moment I will add the deleted line, until some discussion on the subject has occured and some consenceus is reached, thanks.

--ZivaVatra 20:47, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

You didn't present any arguments yourself in the first place -- and the burden of proof is on the one who makes the claim. Now that you resented to talk and presented the evidence, you might have a certain point. Since all of us apparently for the first time heard about the term Servia used in modern context, (and I doubt it would be immediately recognizable to present-day native English speakers), it's certainly an (British?) archaism from times before WWI. The manual of style somewhere (can't find it at the moment) states that the lead section should contain all the names under which the entity is commonly referred to. The term Servia appears to be a century-old mistranslation, and stating "previously known as Servia" in the lead paragraph gives the impression that the country was renamed rather than it's an archaic usage, plus it certainly doesn't bear a relevance in modern times. As such, it could be mentioned somewhere in the text, but it definitely doesn't belong to the lead section, and not stated like that. Duja 21:11, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

---

To clarify the matter somewhat: here is a page, apparently created by a student — not fitting the WP:RS, but he apparently conducted a nice research:

The book contains an important article The Story of the Black Hand and the Great War by a Montenegrin intellectual Voislav M. Petrovich, p. 243-267. He committed suicide in London in 1934 after a violent campaign instituted against him and threats of the Black Hand. It is interesting that Petrovich had published a Serbian grammar in London in which he succeeded in getting the English Press to use the word "Serbia" instead of "Servia".

Duja 21:16, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

For ZivaVatra: please stop your trolling. "Servia" is a false name for Serbia. Name Serbia derived from the name Serbs which never had letter "v" in their name. Check some historical maps:

• The Serbi in the northern Caucasus in the ancient times: http:/upwiki/wikipedia/commons/d/df/1729.jpg
• The Sorabi in the Central Europe in the 5th century: http://www.euratlas.com/big/big0500.htm
• The Sorbs in the Central Europe in the 6th century: http://www.euratlas.com/big/big0600.htm
• The Serbs in the Balkans in the 7th century: http://www.euratlas.com/big/big0700.htm
• The Serbia in the 13th century: http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1300.htm

PANONIAN (talk) 21:42, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Time is comming and time is going

I dident know thate Dardania (Kosoo) was so big. Now I know way Serbs hase make mytologie of Kosovo.

• Dardania with centrum in Ulpiana (the Ilirian city Ulkiana the birthplace of Justian (alb. The place of the Wolf) is near Prishtina) http://www.euratlas.com/big/big0500.htm

Atention Info Box mape

Atention: The mape is not showing the teritory of Serbia but the last part of Yugoslavia in year 2006. Serbia and Vojvodina was merged to Serbian state and Kosovo is UN Protectoriate. See the last CG statemant http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/diplo/de/Aussenpolitik/RegionaleSchwerpunkte/Suedosteuropa/KosovoStatement060921.pdf the statut of Kosovo is not definetet.