Talk:Post (Björk album)

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BetacommandBot (talk) 05:30, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Third album ?

This is Bjork's third studio album. She created an album in the late 70s in Iceland under this name. Please don't change it. Andrzejbanas (talk) 22:01, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

It was referenced as her second album by every music publication back in 1995 as well as the label and the artist herself. There's an official album count, why we should ignore it and "invent" our own ? If to include her juvenilia album in the count, why not to include Selmasongs album as well ? My apologies but any count except official is a secondary/alternative opinion. Official count is a primary opinion. You cannot ignore the primary opinion completely and force the alternative opinion to be the only opinion presented at Wikipedia. Some articles from 1995: The Face, Rolling Stone, MTV Online, NME. Shimenawa (talk) 19:31, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Björk has acknowledged the 1977 album as her first release in various occassions, for example, in an interview with Politiken in 1995. Her official website also: link. And major publications as well: Request, Now, The Guardian, Record Collector, Blue Jean. An annotation could be added to adress the confussion.--Bleff (talk) 19:48, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

The fact 1977 release is acknowledged as first still doesn't affect the official album count and doesn't give us the right to alter numbering. All her subsequent albums after Debut were consistently numbered as 2nd, 3rd etc without taking the juvenilia record into account. We all know her latest Vulnicura was officially 8th, not 9th. None of original official sources support wiki's alternative numbering (funny, two of the publications you have linked count Debut as 3rd, counting Gling-Glo in ;-). It just shows how any alternative numbering is irrelevant). Yes, Björk may call her child album as first, yet she actually named Debut as her first in that Blue Jean interview above. She also clearly said "My first album didn't come out until I was 27" here. This official label statement mentions the juvenilia record as first album and on the same page it calls Debut the first international solo album. Is there anything against Wikipedia rules in my offer to present both official and alternative numberings on her pages nicely ? Shimenawa (talk) 21:25, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

I think both points of view should be acknowledged in the articles. --Bleff (talk) 17:49, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Ok, i will add referenced explanatory sentences to the body, i think Release section fits the best. Regarding the lead section, as i understand it should be unreferenced. Then Andrzejbanas blamed my previous attempts to be complicated, so the shortest solution i can think of is "third (officially second)". However, Andrzejbanas have also offered to remove mention of third/second from the lead completely. Do you have an opinion on what should be in the lead ? Shimenawa (talk) 10:07, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Shimenawa I don't think "a studio album" is a good option for the lead. It's just so vague and imprecise... Pedro u | t 16:10, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Well it's better than misleading "third album". I thought this solution may please most people. What your solution could have been ? I can offer "the second (technically third)" or just "the second solo album". Maybe "the third (officially second)". I'm Ok with any of them, although personally i would use "the second solo album", since alternative point of view is explained in Release section. Shimenawa (talk) 14:13, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

What about putting "third album", and clarifying it via footnote? The Template:Refn, for example. --Bleff (talk) 18:09, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

This is the best option so far. Pedro u | t 18:46, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Using the word "third" alone in the lead still brings the altered unofficial numbering into dominance. The official number should be given first or just leave it without number as it is now. One of the possibilities could be "second international solo album". Btw, why altered numbering includes child album but disregards Gling-Glo and Selmasongs ? Shimenawa (talk) 12:03, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

I am not an expert in Wikipedia rules, but i've got an impression the inclusion of the juvenilia in her solo albums breaks all 3 of the main Wikipedia rules, called Core content policies.

First, Wikipedia is all about references... Why her albums shouln't be defined as they were defined by majority of "references" in 1995, 1997 etc. ?

Second, officially her child album is not a part of her solo work. When we include the child album in actual Bjork solo work and alter album numbers, it feels like an "original research". The altered numbers from this "research" are not really supported by reliable sources except of several post-2009 publications which were fooled by Wikipedia.

From the rules: "Wikipedia articles must not contain original research. The phrase "original research" (OR) is used on Wikipedia to refer to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist. This includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not stated by the sources."

Finally, when we agree to mention both official and "researched" numbers, but still mention only altered number in the lead the "Due and undue weight" section of the "Neutral point of view" rule becomes broken. 100% of original official sources do not support the inclusion of the child album. 80% of major publications share this point. From remaining 20% only a handful of sources may support the point which was forced by Wikipedia in the past years, the others support different alternative views on numbering, for example Record Collector and Now magazines think Debut was a third album, while others may include Telegram and Selmasongs but still exclude the child album.

Her biography books, at least those i own, predictably call Post "the second album", despite they have articles on the child album as well. If the Post is the "third" album, how to cite the books or Bjork when she says "my second album" ? Amend citations ? Provide false info ? Shimenawa (talk) 21:15, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Infobox genres

Genre labels are sometimes complicated, specially with an album like this. I'm creating this new section so as to promote discussion as to which genres should be listed in the article's infobox. As of 10 July 2016, the following genres are listed, with the following sources:

• Art pop

• Coleman, Nick (31 August 2003). "Live Box". The Independent. Independent Print Limited.
• Also, I am aware that the following are not proper sources, but sites such as Acclaimed Music and Rate Your Music frequently call this album "art-pop".

• Avant-pop

• Mackay, Emily (12 June 2015). "Bjork's 'Post' 20 Years On: How The Icelandic Genius Created A Glossy, Future-Focused Avant-Pop Wonderland". NME. Time Inc. Retrieved 4 April 2016.

• Experimental pop

• "Björk". Time. Vol. 147. Time Inc. 1996. p. 139. Retrieved 10 July 2016.

• Electronica

• Catch-all label that, according to this source, encompasses the downtempo, trip hop and chill-out labels sourced in the "Composition" section.

• Alternative dance

• Gives a clearer picture of the dance tracks, I feel that the label "dance" would be too simplistic.

• Blyweiss, Adam; Bossenger, Alex; Grotepas, Nicole; Speranza, Greg; Terich, Jeff (5 June 2014). "10 Essential Iceland albums". Treble. Treble Media. Retrieved 27 March 2016.

• Jazz fusion

• While a "jazz" tag would be too exhaustive, "jazz fusion" gives a clearer idea of the jazz elements in the album present in tracks such as "Enjoy", "It's Oh So Quiet", "The Modern Things" and "I Miss You"

• Ali, Lorraine (2 February 1998). "Post". Rolling Stone. Retrieved 28 April 2012.
• Press, Joy (2 July 1995). "Björk: 'Post'". The New York Times.
• Ali, Lorraine (30 September 1995). "Iceland's ethereal pop princess breaks the ice". Us. Wenner Media LLC.
• Martin, Michael (30 April 2015). "Björk talk: the avant-pop queen on festivals, technology and how to get old". Time Out. Martin. Retrieved 10 July 2016.

• Ambient

Ambient is also prominent, most notably on tracks such as "Headphones" and "Possibly Maybe"

• "Icon: Björk". Wondering Sound. eMusic.com. September 9, 2010. Retrieved June 22, 2014.
• "..love bites Björk & Goldie". i-D. No. 154. Time Out. 1 July 1996.

Please make your suggestions here before editing. I know these are quite a lot genres, but the album is quite eclectic. Discussion is encouraged! Warmth, --Bleff (talk) 14:49, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

Update: Feeling it was too redundant to include "art-pop", "experimental pop" and "avant-pop" in the Infobox, I removed the last two and included them on the album's main section.--Bleff (talk) 22:42, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Post (Björk album)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Jennica (talk · contribs) 02:50, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Comments by Jennica

• Rename "Commercial reception" to "Commercial performance" and move it below "Accolades" but keep it a level [2] subheader.

Fixed

• Personnel should go under the track list.

Fixed

• Critics list is very long.. I'm not sure if it should go at the bottom or not. Maybe someone else can chime in.

Maybe moving it to the bottom like in the Illmatic article? I put it there because I thought it would look better under "Legacy"

• Change the "Recorded" field in the infobox to "Studio ="

Fixed

Hi Jennica, any news? I hope I'm not bothering you --Bleff (talk) 00:48, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Bleff - I did this before I really knew what a GA review is.. I thought it was more of a peer review and I did the same on another one and was talked to about it by another user. Now I don't know where to go to from here. I don't think I am apt to review it properly and I apologize. --Jennica✿ / ^talk 00:53, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Jennica, that's ok. I'll write a new section at the discussion page to see if another user can take over the review. Regards, --Bleff (talk) 01:03, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Comments by Finnusertop (non-reviewer)

There's a hefty amount of CS1 errors (see the article's hidden categories) that ought to be fixed. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 03:10, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This review is transcluded from Talk:Post (Björk album)/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: FunkMonk (talk · contribs) 10:59, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

• Hi, this has waited quite a while already, but I'll review it soon. May be my favourite Björk album. FunkMonk (talk) 10:59, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
• "charting highly in the UK, Scotland, Finland, Australia and Ireland; it reached the 9th spot of the US Bubbling Under Hot 100 Singles." Needs a source.
  • Fixed
• "For this record, Björk incorporated songs omitted from her Manchester sessions with 808 State's Graham Massey, which had preceded the recording sessions for Debut." I'm not sure what's meant by this sentence. She incorporated songs she had written before recording Debut, and omitted from the sessions for what? For Debut?
  • I meant the songs were omitted from Debut, not the sessions. Should I rewrite it?

I think it would be good to clarify it. FunkMonk (talk) 22:28, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

What about: "For this record, Björk incorporated shelved songs she wrote in Manchester with 808 State's Graham Massey, which had preceded the recording sessions for Debut."?

• "they had been part of a circle of anarchist poets in Reykjavík called Medusa and had met the singer while she was a member of KUKL." Who does "they" refer to?
  • Björk, Þór Eldon and Sjón.

Perhaps clarify? FunkMonk (talk) 22:28, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

Fixed

• There are many duplicate links throughout.
  • Fixed
• Should Einar Orn have his name spelled out and linked under credits? He is linked elsewhere.
  • Fixed
• I think you could give dates for the various views and quotes form critics, so we can now whether they are contemporary or retrospective. May create clutter though.
  • I added the dates of several quotes.
• "n his book Jung and the Postmodern: The Interpretation of Realities, Christopher Hauke considered the "trick" to be a case of postmodernism" What does "trick" refer to here? The sound effect mentioned in the previous sentence?
  • Yes, the sound effect: "'the odd scratchings at the end' of the track."

I think this could be clarified. FunkMonk (talk) 22:28, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

I believe it's now clarified.

• "Stéphane/"Stephane" should be consistent, and not linked four times.
  • Fixed
• "the destruction of over 100,000 copies of the album" Why?
  • I added more information on Rimbaud's lawsuit.
• " who lunged at Kaufman knocking her to the ground" Perhaps mention this was televised.
  • Fixed
• "López sent the package to Björk's" You haven't presented "the package" before this, so it appears some clarification is needed.
  • Fixed
• "containing a performance at Shepherds Bush Empire" Performance of what, the album?
  • Added more information.
• "limited edition of Debut and Post together as one compilation" On one disc?
  • No, as a compilation of two separate CDs.
• You there, Bleff?
  • I am now, sorry about the delay!
• "Post "came fully equipped" with six music videos" Who are you quoting, and what does it mean to be "fully equipped with music videos"?
  • I'm quoting Eric Henderson from Slant. Meaning that the music videos accompanied the release and later promotion of the album, sort of acknowledging their impact in the album's reception.
• A good deal about the detail of the music videos under "promotion" are repeated in the section about the videos, so I think much of it could be cut down to avoid repetition.
  • Fixed
• The music video section seems extremely detailed, compared with sections about the album itself. Isn't much of this detail better elft for the articles about the individual songs?
  • I wanted the article's content to extend beyond just the album, taking the record rather as a main theme to describe this period of her career. Kind of a "Post era" article, if you will. I was following a similar thing I did in the article for Vespertine, with a section dedicated to the music videos, but Post's has twice the amount of clips to talk about. Should I remove a couple of sentences per video?

It just seems a tad too detailed. Not a deal breaker for me, but may be a problem during a potential FAC. In any case, if you remove text, remember to add it to the article about individual songs, so that it isn't lost. FunkMonk (talk) 22:28, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

Sure, I'll add anything that I remove from the section to the individual articles. Thank you.

• "MusicHound awarded the album two out of five stars.[167]" Given the praise listed before this, could it be elaborated why?
  • I got MusicHound's score via Acclaimed Music, and added the sentence to "balance" a little bit the praise that came before. But I couldn't find the review online so I can't really quote the author.
• "of their use as an auteur art medium." Only stated explicitly in the intro, which should have no unique info.
  • I rewrote the sentence to: "The acclaimed music videos that accompanied every single heavily aided Björk's success, and have been noted for its surrealism, thematic focus on the relationship between nature and technology, and artistic legitimation of the medium." What do you think about it?

Anything that's closer to what the article body states is better than before. FunkMonk (talk) 22:28, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

• "and a stalker failed to murder her" Likewise, but related to an earlier issue.
  • I don't quite understand what you mean, that I only reference that in the intro?

You hadn't mentioned he tried to murder her outside the intro when I wrote that. But now you imply it by saying he sent a bomb. FunkMonk (talk) 22:28, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

• "one of Björk's most idiosyncratic releases" Likewise.
  • I considered that this was not only stated in the intro because the "Composition" section reads: "It is considered by some to be the "quintessential Björk" release, due to its protean form - more than any of her other albums - and its "wide emotional palette"." Too vague?

Though "protean" and "idiosyncratic" kind of means the same, I think it's unnecessary to use different terms in the intro and the article body. FunkMonk (talk) 22:28, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

I replaced it with "... Post is now considered one of Björk's quintessential releases..."

• The new clarifications look great, so I'll go ahead and pass. I assume the plan is to get all Björk albums to GA? FunkMonk (talk) 15:13, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Great, thanks! Yes, hopefully.--Bleff (talk) 19:59, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.