User talk:Ours18

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Hello, Ours18, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

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Regarding your edits

Please read the Wikipedia policy, your straw man vote violates it.. also personal attacks such as calling somebody a troll on a talkpage, because you do not agree with their legitamate content edits is a violation of the personal attacks policy, which can lead to a ban for you.

Glam metal is a subgenre of heavy metal, read its article. Led Zeppelin are seen as many people as a founding heavy metal band; see its article on this website also.

And while you're at it, blanking large sections of legitimate articles, like you did here[1] also strongly goes against policy, please take time to get yourself more familiar with these little rules and regulations that helps Wiki tick over better. - Deathrocker 02:32, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

"Straw man vote?" I didn't make one, like I said it is the consensus of the majority of the metal community. Please note MTV, Rolling Stone Magazine, and all other mainstream musical publications do not count as "part of the metal community."

You were trolling, so far as I can see. I wasn't the only one to say so either. You clearly had no idea what you were talking about---not an attack, just a statement of what anyone could see.

I have read enough about glam "metal" and heard enough about glam "metal" to know that it is not metal. Once again, I encourage you to broaden your scope a bit when looking for sources to cite---it's common knowledge in the metal community that nearly all glam bands are not metal. This is part of the reason why you have so many metalheads cruising the site and editing articles, and then getting into edit wars, because they/we know the site is wrong but everytime we try to change it some revisionist rock fan/punk fan/mallcore fan (whatever the argument happens to be about) changes it back, then uses more incorrect Wiki articles as a source. Please, search elsewhere.

And I don't care if many people claim Zep to be a founding metal band; the fact is most metalheads realize they are not metal. Which reminds me: a band can play a critical role in founding a genre without actually being part of it. The fact of the matter is, most meatl fans do not see much metal in Zep's music.

Fine, I won't blanket articles like that again, but then how are we going to resolve this issue? Nu metal is NOT metal---once again, look outside mainstream music publications for sources to confirm it. Metalheads, including those who like some numetal/mallcore (which includes me, I might add) almost universally agree on that. If we can't change the article to reflect the truth, what do you expect us to do? That list is flat-out wrong, no ands or buts about it, but people will use it to cite more incorrect information in other articles.

Ours18 03:55, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

You don't seem to have the slightest idea what "metalhead" is, you are likely coming from the perspective of a post-thrash view... bands in the extreme metal subsidary are debated as not metal at all by some of the older metalheads.... even the drummer of Iron Maiden has called black metal "false metal". Led Zeppelin and the like are viewed as metal by the original metalheads you know the people who started the movement in the 1970s.. that carries alot more water than people 30 years later who just listen to subgenres of it, werent born when the original movement was around or involved with it, yet for some reason attempt to insert themselves as an authority on what "metal is and isn't"....

Whether you like it or not glam metal has long standing been a subgenre of heavy metal, and is more closely tied to the original movement than hardcore related music like thrash and the subgenres which it influenced. Nu-metal is also a subgenre of heavy metal, if you don't like it... blame extreme metal and groove metal for influencing it in the first place. Metalcore is clearly a subgenre of metal also.

Please read the article on NPOV so you can get a better idea of how to edit Wikipedia articles, not just to suit your own bias' or point of views. - Deathrocker 04:14, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

"bands in the extreme metal subsidary are debated as not metal at all by some of the older metalheads.... even the drummer of Iron Maiden has called black metal "false metal"." Please source these two claims. (Not that the Maiden drummer isn't biased - he's christian, of course he wouldn't like black metal... still, source?) 66.36.147.40 04:47, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

EM sources

You'll have to come up with some better sources; Anus.com is a cookie monster music site, read the description at the top "Death metal, black metal, thrash and grindcore as history." not a reliable source and not a notable site anyway.

BNRMetal.com INCLUDES Led Zeppelin in its archive and says no heavy metal discussion is complete without them... that isn't "agreeing" with EM at all, who exclude the band entirely from their website. - Deathrocker 05:57, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

It says they are hard rock, and since MA is NOT a history site and only a metal archival site fit to archive unquestionably METAL bands, it fits in the page. ANUS has been delted from wikipedia before on those same acusations, and then were allowed back on because the ending vote decided they were encyclopedia-worthy. So they are perfectly notable.

ANUS is also considered by MANY in the metal community to be a very reliable source for metal historical information---not just "Cookie Monster Music" fans. So they are perfectly reliable.

I suggest you stop inserting your POV in every single article I edit. Ours18 06:12, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Anus.com isn't reliable, it is only extreme metal related and says so in its very heading, "Death metal, black metal, thrash and grindcore as history." it is also a non notable site comparing to the sources that contradict it.

BNRMetal.com... a heavy metal website has a profile up for Led Zeppelin and says that no heavy metal discussion is complete without Led Zeppelin, that is entirly the opposite to EM's stance on the band, it does not "agree" with EM at all. Did you actually read the article?... you do realise heavy metal is a form of hard rock right? So its the same as a website saying for example, that Guns N' Roses are a rock n' roll band when infact they're hard rock.... the link you provided nowhere says "Led Zeppelin are not a heavy metal band"... infact it says the complete opposite.

You'll have to find something more substantial than that to try and push your POV. - Deathrocker 06:50, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

While ANUS is called "Death metal, black metal, thrash and grindcore as history.", the name of the article is "The History of Heavy Metal Music". ANUS is quite a known site in the metal community, and is certainly way more reliable than AMG, which only has a handful of metal bands and lots of absurd genres.

About BNR, while it's true that they say that no discussion is complete without Led Zeppelin, they are also classify them as classic rock. That's the same as saying that no discussion about english / swedish death metal is complete without mentioning punk / hardcore bands. The fact that those non-metal bands influenced metal bands do not make them metal as well.

About Led Zeppelin, if they were "the definitive heavy metal band", you would expect that a lot of bands would cover their songs. Now go to EM, change the search to "song title" and search for Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath. Now tell me your results and the only obvious conclusion you can achieve. Evenfiel 14:09, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Anus.com does not pass Wiki's notablity policy and I've already pointed out that it is a "Death metal, black metal, thrash and grindcore as history." website, stated by the website itself..

Regardless, that very site itself, along with Black Sabbath, calls Led Zeppelin AND Blue Cheer heavy metal;

"At that point, however, the formula for 1970s heavy metal was established: a smidgen of the King Crimson esoteric weirdness, the dark Gothic haunting cavernous sound of Black Sabbath, the guitar wizardry of Deep Purple and Led Zeppelin, the physical thunder and brash insane hedonism of Blue Cheer. "[2]

And as already shown, BNRMetal.com doesn't agree with EM's exclusion of genuine metal bands, shown by the fact that Led Zeppelin have their own article included on that metal site.

As I pointed out earlier, searching EM for anything reliable related to heavy metal is laughable. All Media Guide is the world's largest music database company... please think before you type out ridiculous claims in regards to notability, thanks. - Deathrocker 15:21, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

You are pretty good at twisting words, aren't you? ANUS does not say that Led Zeppelin is a heavy metal bands. They say, numerous times in the article, that they are a rock band. The text you quoted simple says that Heavy Metal has elements found in classic rock. It's like saying that thrash metal used the aggression of punk / hardcore music. Got it?

As I already pointed out, AMG is not viewed as a good source of metal knowledge. I've been a member of metal forums and mailing lists since 1998, and I've never, ever saw anyone talking about AMG. As a matter of fact, the first time I've seen them was in this discussion about EM. Searching AMG for anything related to metal is laughable. How many bands they have? 400? Pretty much all of them with absurd genres. ANUS is way more reliable and known in the metal scene than AMG.

As me and other users already shown, bnrmetal.com does not consider Led Zeppelin a metal band. He classifies them as hard rock and they were only added to the site because some hard rock bands have an appeal to metal fans, not because they are metal. Here is what the site says about Hard Rock and Glam:

In reality, the difference between "hard rock" and "heavy metal" is a fine line, and widely open to debate and interpretation. To these ears, hard rock really seems to be the more radio-friendly version, while heavy metal opts for a more sinister, darker sound. Practically every band in the so-called glam or hair genre probably slots in hard rock, and many debate about whether such bands are really metallic or not (the number of glam bands on this site gives a clue as to this author's opinion). Nonetheless, there were and are many bands not in the glam arena that are best described as hard rock, and many of them have sufficient crossover appeal to belong on a metal site.

What's the problem with EM and heavy metal? They don't have the rock bands that you classify as metal, that's why the site is laughable? Encyclopaedia Metallum is the world's largest metal database website. It's always quoted in metal forums and mailing lists, while poor AMG isn't. Please think before you type out ridiculous claims in regards to notability, thanks.Evenfiel 02:36, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

World's largest "extreme metal" related website? perhaps.. heavy metal? no, unless you are 15 years old and think metal starts with Slayer. As I showed already, Anus.com says Led Zeppelin are heavy metal in the paragraph I quoted.. what does its bias against glam metal infavour of hardcore non-metal related music have to do with anything? - Deathrocker 09:24, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

1) Your "paragraph" is out of context. 2) Your claims about "extreme metal" have been constantly refuted. 3) Your "15 year old" snide remarks are ad hominems. 4) Your claims about ANUS failing the Wikipedia standards are false. *sigh* It is pretty clear that you are not interested in making the article, or Wikipedia [3], better, but simply fighting on some vendetta against EM and inserting your POV wherever you please. I'd like to assume good faith from you and simple ignorance, but seeing as you can't even return the favour to everyone else with your "15 year old kid" ad hominems, it's getting increasingly difficult to do so. 69.70.27.42 12:46, 26 September 2006 (UTC)